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Discrepancies that lead to Weapon Damage Bias
Huntler
✭✭✭✭✭
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✭
Hello fellow PvPers, its that time of the week again with me to totally bother you guys with annoying things that will likely *** people off who am running what I am talking about, and point out some discrepancies in game that are leading towards a gap between weapon damage and spell damage (in which this gap will continue to get worse as time goes on). This is actually a complex problem with multiple different reasons compounding each other to why we see today stam builds running far more frequently and successfully to magicka builds. I will not be bringing up every compounding point since I do not think all should necessarily be changed, its just important to note that where we are today has been an accumulation of changes and game design problems since June. Examples being that ever since June ZOS has been attempting to make stamina more viable, this lead to significant buffs to medium armor, better armor set designs, etc. The two main points I would like to address as I see them being the easiest to normalize are as follows (Yes I will also be ignoring dodge rolling... that is its own whole can of worms that needs its own thread):
1. Weapon damage vs. Spell damage itemization discrepancy
2. Champion Skill line damage reduction discrepancy
I'll start with point 1. Right now with BIS builds for a magicka user, you can at best get to near ~3200 spell damage. This sacrifices literally everything in terms of set pieces that boost regen, magicka stats, any kind of defensive cabailities, etc. The idea here is to give you a near max of what is possible in a build totally focused on it. In addition, it is not easy getting here, it takes literally 4 different sets and once again you sacrifice a significant amount of stat points, regen, and other bonuses sets provide that we all want, but to really do damage you need to get this high as compared to stam builds.
On to weapon damage, the same type of BIS build puts you at over 4k weapon damage. In addition, this doesn't even sacrifice anywhere near the same amount of stats or regen rates. For brief periods of time I run with someone who boosts it to over 5k, just to put some things in perspective. This has lead us to this very large gap in potential damage between stamina and magicka builds which simply makes no sense. Since each stat scales the same, it truly makes no sense that one is more readily/easily stackable than the other. If it is easier to stack your damage stat, along with the stats that further boost your damage and maintain sustain (such as stam, and stam regen), you simply are far more powerful than the magicka counterpart who stacks all this (bear in mind I hold no bias here as I am a healer ffs).
What lead us here was some of what I said before, significant buffs to medium armor, and stam build sets, coupled with 1.6's unleashing of the flood gates called soft caps. Certain sets are particularly at fault in this (I'm looking at you ravager) where similar magicka sets are much less powerful in regards. Take ravager for example, imagine there was a light armor set where every time you put up a shield you gained 600 spell damage... yeah... that effectively is what ravager is. I only use ravager here as an example, I am not necessarily saying it needs to be changed, but it is definitely one of the contributing factors. Simply put, spell damage and weapon damage need to be normalized if ZOS truly wants both builds to be viable (or at least on even ground). Its no surprise more than half the population is running dps stam builds in PvP because of such a discrepancy. This is once again just one example and is then compounded even more by other issues (on to point 2).
2. In the champion skill line, there is always an advantage passive and counter passive (for the most part). Example being, you can buff you spell resists, but your enemy can buff their spell resist penetration. Simple comparison, but you get my point. Now some champion passives affect both spell and physical damage so we will ignore those (example being crit damage reduction). Instead I want to point out how magicka damage gets damaged reduced on a multi-tiered level as compared to physical damage:
Against spell damage you can:
-% increase your spell resists
-% flat damage reduce each spell damage type (fire,cold,lightning,magic, etc.)
Against physical damage you can:
-% increase your armor
- AND.... JK thats its.... get rekt
The above should plainly put where I am getting at with this, but if it isn't. Magicka damage has to deal with a player being able to mitigate it through spell resist increase along with a complete % damage reduction (which does have a counter btw since a player can buff their specific magicka type damage) while physical damage you can only % increase your armor (thus there is no counter to the champion skill that %increase physical damage). This is a DRASTIC oversight that for now that will continue to get worse and worse as people rank up as this gap will increase. The solution here is simple, throw out one of these silly other passives that feel pointless (i'm looking at you increase the healing effect of potions) and implement a % physical damage reduction passive. It only makes sense as currently there is no counter to increasing it through CS while spell damage has a counter. Furthermore, since spell resists/armor both hard cap at the same point and scale the same, there is no diff between the passives to increase armor and spell resists so they cannot claim the armor scales differently and thus is stronger. If anything it is actually far harder to % increase your armor in the CS system (look it up, the % per point is actually far less than when putting points in spell resists).
I could keep talking, but these are two points with blatant discrepancies I feel many people can see and thus acknowledge the problem without having to freak out about someone nerfing their build or anything. These discrepancies for balance HAVE to be addressed. Should you disagree feel free to comment (or agree) and we can discuss it. Good day.
Edit: Bolded summary sentences for TLDR noobs, but read it if you don't understand them.
Edited by Huntler on April 7, 2015 3:52PM 1. Weapon damage vs. Spell damage itemization discrepancy
2. Champion Skill line damage reduction discrepancy
I'll start with point 1. Right now with BIS builds for a magicka user, you can at best get to near ~3200 spell damage. This sacrifices literally everything in terms of set pieces that boost regen, magicka stats, any kind of defensive cabailities, etc. The idea here is to give you a near max of what is possible in a build totally focused on it. In addition, it is not easy getting here, it takes literally 4 different sets and once again you sacrifice a significant amount of stat points, regen, and other bonuses sets provide that we all want, but to really do damage you need to get this high as compared to stam builds.
On to weapon damage, the same type of BIS build puts you at over 4k weapon damage. In addition, this doesn't even sacrifice anywhere near the same amount of stats or regen rates. For brief periods of time I run with someone who boosts it to over 5k, just to put some things in perspective. This has lead us to this very large gap in potential damage between stamina and magicka builds which simply makes no sense. Since each stat scales the same, it truly makes no sense that one is more readily/easily stackable than the other. If it is easier to stack your damage stat, along with the stats that further boost your damage and maintain sustain (such as stam, and stam regen), you simply are far more powerful than the magicka counterpart who stacks all this (bear in mind I hold no bias here as I am a healer ffs).
What lead us here was some of what I said before, significant buffs to medium armor, and stam build sets, coupled with 1.6's unleashing of the flood gates called soft caps. Certain sets are particularly at fault in this (I'm looking at you ravager) where similar magicka sets are much less powerful in regards. Take ravager for example, imagine there was a light armor set where every time you put up a shield you gained 600 spell damage... yeah... that effectively is what ravager is. I only use ravager here as an example, I am not necessarily saying it needs to be changed, but it is definitely one of the contributing factors. Simply put, spell damage and weapon damage need to be normalized if ZOS truly wants both builds to be viable (or at least on even ground). Its no surprise more than half the population is running dps stam builds in PvP because of such a discrepancy. This is once again just one example and is then compounded even more by other issues (on to point 2).
2. In the champion skill line, there is always an advantage passive and counter passive (for the most part). Example being, you can buff you spell resists, but your enemy can buff their spell resist penetration. Simple comparison, but you get my point. Now some champion passives affect both spell and physical damage so we will ignore those (example being crit damage reduction). Instead I want to point out how magicka damage gets damaged reduced on a multi-tiered level as compared to physical damage:
Against spell damage you can:
-% increase your spell resists
-% flat damage reduce each spell damage type (fire,cold,lightning,magic, etc.)
Against physical damage you can:
-% increase your armor
- AND.... JK thats its.... get rekt
The above should plainly put where I am getting at with this, but if it isn't. Magicka damage has to deal with a player being able to mitigate it through spell resist increase along with a complete % damage reduction (which does have a counter btw since a player can buff their specific magicka type damage) while physical damage you can only % increase your armor (thus there is no counter to the champion skill that %increase physical damage). This is a DRASTIC oversight that for now that will continue to get worse and worse as people rank up as this gap will increase. The solution here is simple, throw out one of these silly other passives that feel pointless (i'm looking at you increase the healing effect of potions) and implement a % physical damage reduction passive. It only makes sense as currently there is no counter to increasing it through CS while spell damage has a counter. Furthermore, since spell resists/armor both hard cap at the same point and scale the same, there is no diff between the passives to increase armor and spell resists so they cannot claim the armor scales differently and thus is stronger. If anything it is actually far harder to % increase your armor in the CS system (look it up, the % per point is actually far less than when putting points in spell resists).
I could keep talking, but these are two points with blatant discrepancies I feel many people can see and thus acknowledge the problem without having to freak out about someone nerfing their build or anything. These discrepancies for balance HAVE to be addressed. Should you disagree feel free to comment (or agree) and we can discuss it. Good day.
Edit: Bolded summary sentences for TLDR noobs, but read it if you don't understand them.
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Nala_✭✭✭✭youre half right, infinite roll dodging needs a nerf and there needs to be a "physical damage reduction %" champion point, but theres no way a stamina user can get more burst than a magicka one, even with inflated weapon damage numbers and better set bonus layouts.0
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Huntler✭✭✭✭✭
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I will edit appropriately then, they should fix the tooltip because %increase in armor in theory with how armor works should increase spell resists. I still believe the point, however, stands.Edited by Huntler on April 7, 2015 3:53PM0 -
LonePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I hate myself for saying this but this is now the second time this week I have agreed with the OP. I fully expect my guild to boot me before I log in later this evening.3 -
Huntler✭✭✭✭✭
✭youre half right, infinite roll dodging needs a nerf and there needs to be a "physical damage reduction %" champion point, but theres no way a stamina user can get more burst than a magicka one, even with inflated weapon damage numbers and better set bonus layouts.
I completely agree that dodge roll is headed for some very, very broken gameplay. I called it in the PTS, the reason I left dodge rolling out of this was that would be a touchy subject needing its entire own thread of arguing for/against it in contrast with shields and whatnot. Just know I agree with you that dodge rolling is already extremely powerful and as people get more champ points it becomes more and more broken. I think they need to find a way to reduce how much you can dodge roll, but NOT nerf it in a way where players who don't roll all the time are hurt because it still players a vital role to those players as well.Edited by Huntler on April 7, 2015 3:58PM3 -
Huntler✭✭✭✭✭
✭LonePirate wrote: »I hate myself for saying this but this is now the second time this week I have agreed with the OP. I fully expect my guild to boot me before I log in later this evening.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day, just tell them that
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Ghostbane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Huntlar, always the champion of my heart.
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Nala_✭✭✭✭youre half right, infinite roll dodging needs a nerf and there needs to be a "physical damage reduction %" champion point, but theres no way a stamina user can get more burst than a magicka one, even with inflated weapon damage numbers and better set bonus layouts.
I completely agree that dodge roll is headed for some very, very broken gameplay. I called it in the PTS, the reason I left dodge rolling out of this was that would be a touchy subject needing its entire own thread of arguing for/against it in contrast with shields and whatnot. Just know I agree with you that dodge rolling is already extremely powerful and as people get more champ points it becomes more and more broken. I think they need to find a way to reduce how much you can dodge roll, but NOT nerf it in a way where players who don't roll all the time are hurt because it still players a vital role to those players as well.
just give it the bolt escape nerf where if its used more than once every 4s its cost is 50% higher or something. then nerf frag damage and fear duration a bit and youre g2g1 -
iseko✭✭✭✭I might be wrong since I have not thought this true as much as you (djeezes christ). I agree with your analysis at first glance. But a magicka user has acces to better defense then a stam user imho.
Sorcs: hardened ward + bol. With good dps and sustain
DK's: flappy wings + gdb. Not too familiar with dk builds. The one class I never played. Hope someone can help out?
Templar: go for 25k+ health +magicka sustain build -> blazing shield + breath of life + puncturing sweep.
Nb's: sap tank? (Some people say it sucks now, some swear to it untill they die)
Stamina got the burst dmg glass cannons atm. Magicka has got the survivability + relative good dps. I get ganked by stam cannons. Prolonged fights with 1 guy tanking five while killing people? Magicka builds.2 -
Nala_✭✭✭✭I might be wrong since I have not thought this true as much as you (djeezes christ). I agree with your analysis at first glance. But a magicka user has acces to better defense then a stam user imho.
Sorcs: hardened ward + bol. With good dps and sustain
DK's: flappy wings + gdb. Not too familiar with dk builds. The one class I never played. Hope someone can help out?
Templar: go for 25k+ health +magicka sustain build -> blazing shield + breath of life + puncturing sweep.
Nb's: sap tank? (Some people say it sucks now, some swear to it untill they die)
Stamina got the burst dmg glass cannons atm. Magicka has got the survivability + relative good dps. I get ganked by stam cannons. Prolonged fights with 1 guy tanking five while killing people? Magicka builds.
permaroll dodging is the best defense in the game, lmao, and magicka has the burst dmg glass cannons. think you got it a lil backwards brah2 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Hello fellow PvPers, its that time of the week again with me to totally bother you guys with annoying things that will likely *** people off who am running what I am talking about, and point out some discrepancies in game that are leading towards a gap between weapon damage and spell damage (in which this gap will continue to get worse as time goes on). This is actually a complex problem with multiple different reasons compounding each other to why we see today stam builds running far more frequently and successfully to magicka builds. I will not be bringing up every compounding point since I do not think all should necessarily be changed, its just important to note that where we are today has been an accumulation of changes and game design problems since June. Examples being that ever since June ZOS has been attempting to make stamina more viable, this lead to significant buffs to medium armor, better armor set designs, etc. The two main points I would like to address as I see them being the easiest to normalize are as follows (Yes I will also be ignoring dodge rolling... that is its own whole can of worms that needs its own thread):
1. Weapon damage vs. Spell damage itemization discrepancy
2. Champion Skill line damage reduction discrepancy
I'll start with point 1. Right now with BIS builds for a magicka user, you can at best get to near ~3200 spell damage. This sacrifices literally everything in terms of set pieces that boost regen, magicka stats, any kind of defensive cabailities, etc. The idea here is to give you a near max of what is possible in a build totally focused on it. In addition, it is not easy getting here, it takes literally 4 different sets and once again you sacrifice a significant amount of stat points, regen, and other bonuses sets provide that we all want, but to really do damage you need to get this high as compared to stam builds.
On to weapon damage, the same type of BIS build puts you at over 4k weapon damage. In addition, this doesn't even sacrifice anywhere near the same amount of stats or regen rates. For brief periods of time I run with someone who boosts it to over 5k, just to put some things in perspective. This has lead us to this very large gap in potential damage between stamina and magicka builds which simply makes no sense. Since each stat scales the same, it truly makes no sense that one is more readily/easily stackable than the other. If it is easier to stack your damage stat, along with the stats that further boost your damage and maintain sustain (such as stam, and stam regen), you simply are far more powerful than the magicka counterpart who stacks all this (bear in mind I hold no bias here as I am a healer ffs).
What lead us here was some of what I said before, significant buffs to medium armor, and stam build sets, coupled with 1.6's unleashing of the flood gates called soft caps. Certain sets are particularly at fault in this (I'm looking at you ravager) where similar magicka sets are much less powerful in regards. Take ravager for example, imagine there was a light armor set where every time you put up a shield you gained 600 spell damage... yeah... that effectively is what ravager is. I only use ravager here as an example, I am not necessarily saying it needs to be changed, but it is definitely one of the contributing factors. Simply put, spell damage and weapon damage need to be normalized if ZOS truly wants both builds to be viable (or at least on even ground). Its no surprise more than half the population is running dps stam builds in PvP because of such a discrepancy. This is once again just one example and is then compounded even more by other issues (on to point 2).
2. In the champion skill line, there is always an advantage passive and counter passive (for the most part). Example being, you can buff you spell resists, but your enemy can buff their spell resist penetration. Simple comparison, but you get my point. Now some champion passives affect both spell and physical damage so we will ignore those (example being crit damage reduction). Instead I want to point out how magicka damage gets damaged reduced on a multi-tiered level as compared to physical damage:
Against spell damage you can:
-% increase your spell resists
-% flat damage reduce each spell damage type (fire,cold,lightning,magic, etc.)
Against physical damage you can:
-% increase your armor
- AND.... JK thats its.... get rekt
The above should plainly put where I am getting at with this, but if it isn't. Magicka damage has to deal with a player being able to mitigate it through spell resist increase along with a complete % damage reduction (which does have a counter btw since a player can buff their specific magicka type damage) while physical damage you can only % increase your armor (thus there is no counter to the champion skill that %increase physical damage). This is a DRASTIC oversight that for now that will continue to get worse and worse as people rank up as this gap will increase. The solution here is simple, throw out one of these silly other passives that feel pointless (i'm looking at you increase the healing effect of potions) and implement a % physical damage reduction passive. It only makes sense as currently there is no counter to increasing it through CS while spell damage has a counter. Furthermore, since spell resists/armor both hard cap at the same point and scale the same, there is no diff between the passives to increase armor and spell resists so they cannot claim the armor scales differently and thus is stronger. If anything it is actually far harder to % increase your armor in the CS system (look it up, the % per point is actually far less than when putting points in spell resists).
I could keep talking, but these are two points with blatant discrepancies I feel many people can see and thus acknowledge the problem without having to freak out about someone nerfing their build or anything. These discrepancies for balance HAVE to be addressed. Should you disagree feel free to comment (or agree) and we can discuss it. Good day.
Edit: Bolded summary sentences for TLDR noobs, but read it if you don't understand them.
Pretty much what I've been trying to say for ages Huntler except the Nerf Sorc herders come out and try to accuse me of whining. The deck is so stacked for physical builds in the design of everything it is a wonder people are still casting spells.
There is also the fact that Physical Armor champion passives only increase armor of a particular armor set only while the spell resistance passive increases your SR based on your adjusted base SR.
The passive abilities given by the Champion system favor stamina builds heavily and the magicka ones are absolutely useless in PvP. 80% magicka cost reduction on next spell after drinking a potion?!!? Stamina Version: 80% Stamina cost reduction on all abilities for 3 seconds after breaking free. Dodge roll setting attackers off balance. Increase to damage to off balance attacks. Increase physical damage after blocking after interrupting etc.
Then there is the fact that magicka users must increase their damage in 2 trees while physical damage users have a single passive in a tree with passives that are actually useful for them! Thaumaturge is in the same tree and the passives there are physical damage only.
Then there is the insane spell resists on every player which on average is much higher than the armor on every player.
The list goes on...but the intent of ZoS is pretty clear.
Edited by Ezareth on April 7, 2015 4:06PMPermanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube5 -
Nala_✭✭✭✭Then there is the insane spell resists on every player which on average is much higher than the armor on every player.
The list goes on...but the intent of ZoS is pretty clear.
yeah what good does 20k spell resist do when you still get hit for 21k by a crystal frag there broseph? at least armor actually does something (excluding this sharpened bug they have going if its true and ignores everything).4 -
corx3✭✭✭youre half right, infinite roll dodging needs a nerf and there needs to be a "physical damage reduction %" champion point, but theres no way a stamina user can get more burst than a magicka one, even with inflated weapon damage numbers and better set bonus layouts.
I completely agree that dodge roll is headed for some very, very broken gameplay. I called it in the PTS, the reason I left dodge rolling out of this was that would be a touchy subject needing its entire own thread of arguing for/against it in contrast with shields and whatnot. Just know I agree with you that dodge rolling is already extremely powerful and as people get more champ points it becomes more and more broken. I think they need to find a way to reduce how much you can dodge roll, but NOT nerf it in a way where players who don't roll all the time are hurt because it still players a vital role to those players as well.
An approximation of my defensive strategy:
Edited by corx3 on April 7, 2015 4:09PM2 -
Huntler✭✭✭✭✭
✭I might be wrong since I have not thought this true as much as you (djeezes christ). I agree with your analysis at first glance. But a magicka user has acces to better defense then a stam user imho.
Sorcs: hardened ward + bol. With good dps and sustain
DK's: flappy wings + gdb. Not too familiar with dk builds. The one class I never played. Hope someone can help out?
Templar: go for 25k+ health +magicka sustain build -> blazing shield + breath of life + puncturing sweep.
Nb's: sap tank? (Some people say it sucks now, some swear to it untill they die)
Stamina got the burst dmg glass cannons atm. Magicka has got the survivability + relative good dps. I get ganked by stam cannons. Prolonged fights with 1 guy tanking five while killing people? Magicka builds.
Part of my response to this would be Nala's response. Simply put dodge roll is the best damage mitigation ability in the game and in a stam build adequately crafted it is virtually spammable (and will be spammable if you farm some CS points). While magicka builds tend to have more wards, everyone has access to a dang powerful stamina shield (bone shield is super strong, dunno why more don't use it). Coupled with vigor being once again a very powerful heal for very cheap, stam builds in 1.6 have actually had their defenses boosted quite significantly. While no you can't run around with a resto staff things like vigor can make up for that, bone shield for a shield, and s/b for reflects (really running s/b on an offbar just to reflect when you are at range or whatnot is very powerful. These are all stamina options. So my point would be that while you make good points, stamina builds have more options than one might think and they have been either buffed, newly introduced, or gotten stronger in 1.6.0 -
iseko✭✭✭✭
Perma dodgers are annoying at best. Getting hit by a crit rush from a stam glass cannon hurts like a mofo. Cryst frag for example? Not nearly as much. What magicka builds do have is delayed dmg (curse, inevitable det) combine that with another high dmg attack and you are going to get recked. Aoe dmg doesbt count imho. Oh yea!!! I can do 20k dps!!! Split up over 12people... Wow... Nice...I might be wrong since I have not thought this true as much as you (djeezes christ). I agree with your analysis at first glance. But a magicka user has acces to better defense then a stam user imho.
Sorcs: hardened ward + bol. With good dps and sustain
DK's: flappy wings + gdb. Not too familiar with dk builds. The one class I never played. Hope someone can help out?
Templar: go for 25k+ health +magicka sustain build -> blazing shield + breath of life + puncturing sweep.
Nb's: sap tank? (Some people say it sucks now, some swear to it untill they die)
Stamina got the burst dmg glass cannons atm. Magicka has got the survivability + relative good dps. I get ganked by stam cannons. Prolonged fights with 1 guy tanking five while killing people? Magicka builds.
permaroll dodging is the best defense in the game, lmao, and magicka has the burst dmg glass cannons. think you got it a lil backwards brah
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Nala_✭✭✭✭just make blocking and roll dodging and break free take resources from a different resource bar (call it endurance and everyone has the exact same amount or something), everyone can reduce the cost of those abilities still, but stam users wont have to burn their main damage resource to go on the defensive this way, and magicka users will be on equal footing1
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Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Then there is the insane spell resists on every player which on average is much higher than the armor on every player.
The list goes on...but the intent of ZoS is pretty clear.
yeah what good does 20k spell resist do when you still get hit for 21k by a crystal frag there broseph? at least armor actually does something (excluding this sharpened bug they have going if its true and ignores everything).
Yeah and I still get hit by 50K wrecking blows since we're making up numbers (I wanted to keep them relative).
Sharpened was fixed last night. Against a *Vampire* Sorc with 7500 spell resistance (absolutely bare minimum you'll find in Cyrodiil) my Crystal frags are hitting for 5841 damage which is 83% of tooltip value. This is with full light armor passive, Legendary Nirnhoned Staff and some points into spell erosion.
7500 spell resistance should be providing around 12% mitigation yet it is providing far more than that and I can't even penetrate the bare minimum possible in the game.
But hey Nerf sorcs right?
Edited by Ezareth on April 7, 2015 4:15PMPermanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube2 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭...
2. In the champion skill line, there is always an advantage passive and counter passive (for the most part). Example being, you can buff you spell resists, but your enemy can buff their spell resist penetration. Simple comparison, but you get my point. Now some champion passives affect both spell and physical damage so we will ignore those (example being crit damage reduction). Instead I want to point out how magicka damage gets damaged reduced on a multi-tiered level as compared to physical damage:
Against spell damage you can:
-% increase your spell resists
-% flat damage reduce each spell damage type (fire,cold,lightning,magic, etc.)
Against physical damage you can:
-% increase your armor
- AND.... JK thats its.... get rekt
...
What really weirds me out about the Hardy passive is it gives resistance to both Magicka and ranged Stamina (Bow) builds.
On my Light Armour build, putting points into a passive to make me take less damage from Lethal Arrow/Poison Injection spammers does not make me take less damage from any other Stamina users, and inexplicably reduces damage from casters instead.
Does Armour rating mitigate Poison damage or is it checking against Spell Resistance instead?
In either scenario, does this mean ranged Stamina builds have more counters than Melee Stamina builds for some completely arbitrary reason?"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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Nala_✭✭✭✭Then there is the insane spell resists on every player which on average is much higher than the armor on every player.
The list goes on...but the intent of ZoS is pretty clear.
yeah what good does 20k spell resist do when you still get hit for 21k by a crystal frag there broseph? at least armor actually does something (excluding this sharpened bug they have going if its true and ignores everything).
Yeah and I still get hit by 50K wrecking blows since we're making up numbers (I wanted to keep them relative).
Sharpened was fixed last night. Against a *Vampire* Sorc with 7500 spell resistance (absolutely bare minimum you'll find in Cyrodiil) my Crystal frags are hitting for 5841 damage which is 83% of tooltip value. This is with full light armor passive, Legendary Nirnhoned Staff and some points into spell erosion.
7500 spell resistance should be providing around 12% mitigation yet it is providing far more than that and I can't even penetrate the bare minimum possible in the game.
But hey Nerf sorcs right?
you never have had a very good grasp on game mechanics, thats why you do 1/2 the damage of the other sorcs4 -
Huntler✭✭✭✭✭
✭...
2. In the champion skill line, there is always an advantage passive and counter passive (for the most part). Example being, you can buff you spell resists, but your enemy can buff their spell resist penetration. Simple comparison, but you get my point. Now some champion passives affect both spell and physical damage so we will ignore those (example being crit damage reduction). Instead I want to point out how magicka damage gets damaged reduced on a multi-tiered level as compared to physical damage:
Against spell damage you can:
-% increase your spell resists
-% flat damage reduce each spell damage type (fire,cold,lightning,magic, etc.)
Against physical damage you can:
-% increase your armor
- AND.... JK thats its.... get rekt
...
What really weirds me out about the Hardy passive is it gives resistance to both Magicka and ranged Stamina (Bow) builds.
On my Light Armour build, putting points into a passive to make me take less damage from Lethal Arrow/Poison Injection spammers does not make me take less damage from any other Stamina users, and inexplicably reduces damage from casters instead.
Does Armour rating mitigate Poison damage or is it checking against Spell Resistance instead?
In either scenario, does this mean ranged Stamina builds have more counters than Melee Stamina builds for some completely arbitrary reason?
I remember this being brought up as a question back during the PTS and if I recall correctly primary bow damage is considered physical while your dot is reduced by spell resists. Someone might correct me on that, but things like lethal arrow are mitigated by armor, not spell resists.0 -
Pixysticks✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened nerf did hurt magicka a little bit, but not by that much. I'd say post-patch I average about 18-20k a CF instead of 20-23k.I remember this being brought up as a question back during the PTS and if I recall correctly primary bow damage is considered physical while your dot is reduced by spell resists. Someone might correct me on that, but things like lethal arrow are mitigated by armor, not spell resists.
Lethal arrow is mitigated by armor and poison resist [both].
Edit to clarify: All poison damage is mitigated by armor and poison resist both.Edited by Pixysticks on April 7, 2015 4:26PMAlacrity
Retired 05/04/15.2 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Then there is the insane spell resists on every player which on average is much higher than the armor on every player.
The list goes on...but the intent of ZoS is pretty clear.
yeah what good does 20k spell resist do when you still get hit for 21k by a crystal frag there broseph? at least armor actually does something (excluding this sharpened bug they have going if its true and ignores everything).
Yeah and I still get hit by 50K wrecking blows since we're making up numbers (I wanted to keep them relative).
Sharpened was fixed last night. Against a *Vampire* Sorc with 7500 spell resistance (absolutely bare minimum you'll find in Cyrodiil) my Crystal frags are hitting for 5841 damage which is 83% of tooltip value. This is with full light armor passive, Legendary Nirnhoned Staff and some points into spell erosion.
7500 spell resistance should be providing around 12% mitigation yet it is providing far more than that and I can't even penetrate the bare minimum possible in the game.
But hey Nerf sorcs right?
you never have had a very good grasp on game mechanics, thats why you do 1/2 the damage of the other sorcs
Yeah because more penetration is possible and there are sorcs running around with 15K crystal fragment tooltip damage.
You going to pull any more bogus factoids out of your ass?
Forget it. Some no-name trashcan isn't worth vomiting over Huntler's thread. Go troll somewhere else.
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube3 -
Ashanne✭✭✭✭relax people and lets all welcome back Nala_...we almost missed you . emphasis on almost
ZOS we need the LOL button back2 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭...
2. In the champion skill line, there is always an advantage passive and counter passive (for the most part). Example being, you can buff you spell resists, but your enemy can buff their spell resist penetration. Simple comparison, but you get my point. Now some champion passives affect both spell and physical damage so we will ignore those (example being crit damage reduction). Instead I want to point out how magicka damage gets damaged reduced on a multi-tiered level as compared to physical damage:
Against spell damage you can:
-% increase your spell resists
-% flat damage reduce each spell damage type (fire,cold,lightning,magic, etc.)
Against physical damage you can:
-% increase your armor
- AND.... JK thats its.... get rekt
...Pixysticks wrote: »...I remember this being brought up as a question back during the PTS and if I recall correctly primary bow damage is considered physical while your dot is reduced by spell resists. Someone might correct me on that, but things like lethal arrow are mitigated by armor, not spell resists.
Lethal arrow is mitigated by armor and poison resist [both].
Edit to clarify: All poison damage is mitigated by armor and poison resist both.
What really weirds me out about the Hardy passive is it gives resistance to both Magicka and ranged Stamina (Bow) builds.
On my Light Armour build, putting points into a passive to make me take less damage from Lethal Arrow/Poison Injection spammers does not make me take less damage from any other Stamina users, and inexplicably reduces damage from casters instead.
Does Armour rating mitigate Poison damage or is it checking against Spell Resistance instead?
In either scenario, does this mean ranged Stamina builds have more counters than Melee Stamina builds for some completely arbitrary reason?
I remember this being brought up as a question back during the PTS and if I recall correctly primary bow damage is considered physical while your dot is reduced by spell resists. Someone might correct me on that, but things like lethal arrow are mitigated by armor, not spell resists.
So it is possible to invest in three (Hardy, Light Armour Focus and Thick Skinned) individual passives that all reduce the damage taken from the average Bow spammer; Three (Spell Shield, Hardy, Elemental Defender) passives that reduce damage from average casters; however, there is only one form of reduction against Wrecking Blow, and it does not scale as a direct reduction but rather a % increase of my lowest stat pool due to being in 7 Light.
That's special.
Edited by Samadhi on April 7, 2015 4:34PM"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
4 -
Huntler✭✭✭✭✭
✭...
2. In the champion skill line, there is always an advantage passive and counter passive (for the most part). Example being, you can buff you spell resists, but your enemy can buff their spell resist penetration. Simple comparison, but you get my point. Now some champion passives affect both spell and physical damage so we will ignore those (example being crit damage reduction). Instead I want to point out how magicka damage gets damaged reduced on a multi-tiered level as compared to physical damage:
Against spell damage you can:
-% increase your spell resists
-% flat damage reduce each spell damage type (fire,cold,lightning,magic, etc.)
Against physical damage you can:
-% increase your armor
- AND.... JK thats its.... get rekt
...
What really weirds me out about the Hardy passive is it gives resistance to both Magicka and ranged Stamina (Bow) builds.
On my Light Armour build, putting points into a passive to make me take less damage from Lethal Arrow/Poison Injection spammers does not make me take less damage from any other Stamina users, and inexplicably reduces damage from casters instead.
Does Armour rating mitigate Poison damage or is it checking against Spell Resistance instead?
In either scenario, does this mean ranged Stamina builds have more counters than Melee Stamina builds for some completely arbitrary reason?
I remember this being brought up as a question back during the PTS and if I recall correctly primary bow damage is considered physical while your dot is reduced by spell resists. Someone might correct me on that, but things like lethal arrow are mitigated by armor, not spell resists.
So it is possible to invest in three (Hardy, Light Armour Focus and Thick Skinned) individual passives that all reduce the damage taken from the average Bow spammer; Three (Spell Shield, Hardy, Elemental Defender) passives that reduce damage from average casters; however, there is only one form of reduction against Wrecking Blow and it does not scale as a direct reduction but rather a % increase of my lowest stat pool due to being in 7 Light.
That's special.
Indeed... and part of the reason. Everything else undergoes an extra layer of reduction of a flat % damage decrease. What scares me about this, is that it will only get worse. We've got players already into the ~200s CS system maxing out physical damage increase as fast as they can.... Important to note dual wield will also be hitting you like this, its just not a 2 handed issue (and some? bow attacks).Edited by Huntler on April 7, 2015 4:33PM0
