Can a mage be a tank? Can a rogue be a mage?

RedFoxFour · March 2015

I think I understand how the game works with regards to classes, but I'm not 100% convinced I have it all straight.

From what I understand...

The only difference between each class is the class skills you get (ie. the 3 different categories listed under Class).

That means I could take my Nightblade, then ignore the Class skills and rather put my points into for instance Destruction Staff and Light armor... and then make him a mage instead. Well, a mage with destruction staff abilities, but a spell caster rather than dagger wielder... and he would suffer no actual penalties from this (e.g. some innate bonus to magic regen that only mages get or some such passive abilites etc).

I am asking because my Nightblade is currently running around with a 2H hammer, which I am enjoy way more than I should. (Why sting someone with just a butterknife when stealth attacking when you can completely wreck their face with a huge mace right?), and I am just curious if I am 'gimping' myself in some way by doing that.

I also made a new character, a mage. But I gave her two axes for dual wielding and a set of heavy armor... figured I would make a battle mage of sorts where she'd be a fighter with dual axes (so orcish right?) and heavy armor, but with innate magic abilities (ergo don't have to meddle with the Destruction Staff stuff).

So is there any drawback to jumping out of the stereotypical MMO class box and playing / skill up the character completely different than what is the norm?

LameoveR · March 2015

RedFoxFour wrote: »

So is there any drawback to jumping out of the stereotypical MMO class box and playing / skill up the character completely different than what is the norm?

You'll need to chose between magicka and stamina build.
Hybrid classes not so good. Just bad.

HeWhoCaresNot · March 2015

RedFoxFour wrote: »

I think I understand how the game works with regards to classes, but I'm not 100% convinced I have it all straight.

From what I understand...

The only difference between each class is the class skills you get (ie. the 3 different categories listed under Class).

That means I could take my Nightblade, then ignore the Class skills and rather put my points into for instance Destruction Staff and Light armor... and then make him a mage instead. Well, a mage with destruction staff abilities, but a spell caster rather than dagger wielder... and he would suffer no actual penalties from this (e.g. some innate bonus to magic regen that only mages get or some such passive abilites etc).

I am asking because my Nightblade is currently running around with a 2H hammer, which I am enjoy way more than I should. (Why sting someone with just a butterknife when stealth attacking when you can completely wreck their face with a huge mace right?), and I am just curious if I am 'gimping' myself in some way by doing that.

I also made a new character, a mage. But I gave her two axes for dual wielding and a set of heavy armor... figured I would make a battle mage of sorts where she'd be a fighter with dual axes (so orcish right?) and heavy armor, but with innate magic abilities (ergo don't have to meddle with the Destruction Staff stuff).

So is there any drawback to jumping out of the stereotypical MMO class box and playing / skill up the character completely different than what is the norm?

Yep yep, seen some nice sorc and nb tanks, various builds. There is still some class abilities that combine to make whatever role you want work. I wouldn't worry too much about the "gimping" part unless your looking for a "standard" cookie cutter build, I would suggest changing up your skills as you level and try out different ones so you can familiarize yourself with their usefulness. Sounds like your having fun with it, thats what counts the most.

Rox83 · March 2015

Are Sorcerer Tanks viable post 1.6?

RedFoxFour · March 2015

LameoveR wrote: »

[
You'll need to chose between magicka and stamina build.
Hybrid classes not so good. Just bad.

Doesn't that kind of rule out a mage using dual wield then?

From what I can tell with the esohead skill calculator there are no magicka using abilities under the weapons (except the staffs), and there are no stamina using abilities under the Sorcerer class categories.

I was thinking about using the dark magic abilities for the CC and the hp/sta/magicka conversions.

ElSlayer · March 2015

Efficency(e.g. Damage) of skills(morphs) that use Magika as resource is scaled from your maximum Magika and Spell Power stats.
Efficency(e.g. Damage) of skills(morphs) that use Stamina as resource is scaled from your maximum Stamina and Weapon Damage stats.

So...
If you use both categories of skills while focusing one stat - skills of other category will suck.
If you use both categories of skill and split stats 50/50 - both will suck.

RedFoxFour · March 2015

ElSlayer wrote: »

Efficency(e.g. Damage) of skills(morphs) that use Magika as resource scales from your maximum Magika and Spell Power stats.
Efficency(e.g. Damage) of skills(morphs) that use Stamina as resource scales from your maximum Stamina and Weapon Damage stats.

So...
If you use both categories of skills while focusing one stat - skills of other category will suck.
If you use both categories of skill and split stats 50/50 - both will suck.

So sorcerer with dual wield is a complete waste then... meh... /reroll

Semfim · March 2015

RedFoxFour wrote: »

So sorcerer with dual wield is a complete waste then... meh... /reroll

No, if you focus on stamina and weapon damage and use sorc, guild, whatever skills to support your damage. Think of sorc skills to buff you and use stamina skills for damage.

Shunravi · March 2015

RedFoxFour wrote: »

LameoveR wrote: »

[
You'll need to chose between magicka and stamina build.
Hybrid classes not so good. Just bad.

Doesn't that kind of rule out a mage using dual wield then?

From what I can tell with the esohead skill calculator there are no magicka using abilities under the weapons (except the staffs), and there are no stamina using abilities under the Sorcerer class categories.

I was thinking about using the dark magic abilities for the CC and the hp/sta/magicka conversions.

Sorcs may have no effective stamina morphs for dps, but there are abilities like lightning form, bound armor, surge, and the dark magic CC that can supplement a stamina build. While costly with a low magica pool, these abilities are more usefull as utility and aren't really spamming abilities.

Celless · March 2015

Hi OP,

For solo play and playing with friends in the majority of PvE content, any class and race can perform well given the right gear, tactics, and coordination.

Think of the classes as a set of tools to pick from to support what you want to do (albeit in different ways). Often times, most builds will be reaching outside of the class skills to perform a role as well (e.g. taunts, sometimes healing, sometimes ultimates, etc.)

If you're looking a competitive PvE build for leaderboards, some races, classes, or gear may not lend itself toward the optimization of what you're trying to do or the leaderboard community expectations.

Shunravi · March 2015

RedFoxFour wrote: »

I could take my Nightblade, then ignore the Class skills and rather put my points into for instance Destruction Staff and Light armor... and then make him a mage instead. Well, a mage with destruction staff abilities, but a spell caster rather than dagger wielder... and he would suffer no actual penalties from this (e.g. some innate bonus to magic regen that only mages get or some such passive abilites etc).

No penalties. In fact, the siphoning line grants bonus magica for each siphoning ability slotted. (And bonus healing as well) So there is no need to ignore class skills. The shadow line gives hp per ability, and nightblades can get the highest hp values in game (properly speced.)

I am asking because my Nightblade is currently running around with a 2H hammer, which I am enjoy way more than I should. (Why sting someone with just a butterknife when stealth attacking when you can completely wreck their face with a huge mace right?), and I am just curious if I am 'gimping' myself in some way by doing that.

Nope. 2h op. My main is NB, my first build was a 2h hybrid all the way back at launch. Then I primary speced magica NB because if the group utility it provided along with its good dps. I also started dabbling in tanking and have now tanked everything in game. Recently I have gone back to 2h, as the utility of magica is less because if the Ult nerf. Though I am considering using the magica spec again.

I also made a new character, a mage. But I gave her two axes for dual wielding and a set of heavy armor... figured I would make a battle mage of sorts where she'd be a fighter with dual axes (so orcish right?) and heavy armor, but with innate magic abilities (ergo don't have to meddle with the Destruction Staff stuff).

Class name does not equal role. Sorc=/=mage. Nightblade=/=rogue(assassin). But a sorc in medium armor can use their magica to maintain high defensive ratings with lightning form and bound armor. Maybe even throw a shield for moderate mitigation or have pets for a passive dot. And as I said, a siphoning nightblade gets magica bonuses. Nightblade sap-tanks are highly effective in aoe situations and have amazing sustain. DKs are amazing pyromages and tanks. Templars are not just for healing.

In most cases it's actually your gear (and champion points) that determine how effective you will be at a role.(not counting min/maxing.)

Jar_Ek · March 2015

Until you hit vr14 and trials anything works pretty much and that includes hybrids... However in trials and speed runs hybrids tend to fall behind on damage. Now having said that stamina sorcerers tend to have just enough magicka to do what they need in terms of buffing spells such as lightning form, bound armour, clannfear, surge.

ShadowMage · March 2015

RedFoxFour wrote: »

ElSlayer wrote: »

Efficency(e.g. Damage) of skills(morphs) that use Magika as resource scales from your maximum Magika and Spell Power stats.
Efficency(e.g. Damage) of skills(morphs) that use Stamina as resource scales from your maximum Stamina and Weapon Damage stats.

So...
If you use both categories of skills while focusing one stat - skills of other category will suck.
If you use both categories of skill and split stats 50/50 - both will suck.

So sorcerer with dual wield is a complete waste then... meh... /reroll

Absolutely not. I'm doing just fine with my dual wield sorc. Play how you want to play. Whatever you have fun with. Personally, I think you have to really try to make a build that totally sucks.

A lot of people will tell you that any build outside a specific set of standard "cookie cutter" builds, will suck big time. Those people are the min/maxers, trial runners, and hardcore PvPers. Unless that's the type of play you're going for, don't listen to them and just make the build you want.

Cody · March 2015

for PvP you will need a damage shield spam/stack build. Otherwise you will not be able to compete; at all.

that, or you make a stealth build that does VERY high damage.

one or the other. Magicka build or stamina build. No hybrids. As of now hybrid builds do not work, both in PvP and end game PvE

RedFoxFour · April 2015

Thanks for all the positive feedback guys!

I kept my Sorcerer and ran around with the axes and heavy armor. She's very low level, only level 5, so I have only a limited amount of skills yet. I am mostly using the two first Dual Wield skills as well as the summoned pet (familiar) and Mages Fury cause I messed up and picked the Storm Calling ability when I was kinda going for Dark Magic (where/how can I reset skills?). Also use the Soul Trap to fill the 5th slot because, why not?

Been having fun so far so I guess we'll see how it pans out. After reading what you guys said about magicka vs stamina vs hybrid I was thinking to just focus mostly on Stamina and then at level 15 add in some bow skills for the weapon swapping.

As far as PvP goes I have zero interest in it. I play a lot of shooter games and other types of PvP games, but in MMO's I have never enjoyed PvP since it's always so reliant on gear, skill sets, talent builds and all sorts of other things rather than relying mostly on player skill. If I want PvP I rather play a game that is designed to be PvP oriented from the ground up.

My Nightblade is a bit higher level (still just 14 though) so I think I kinda mixed the stamina and magicka using abilities... guess I'll have to plan ahead a little better with the Nightblade and then decide what skills to go for.

Thanks again for all the insights

gezzerb16_ESO · April 2015

Cody wrote: »

for PvP you will need a damage shield spam/stack build. Otherwise you will not be able to compete; at all.

that, or you make a stealth build that does VERY high damage.

one or the other. Magicka build or stamina build. No hybrids. As of now hybrid builds do not work, both in PvP and end game PvE

Didn't shadowmage above u just state he's doing fine with a dual socr?

This is the problem I have with your assertion. When I started WoW (or the MMO we dare not speak of) I was a Ret Pally. Yeah I know Rets suck. Thing is I didn't suck. My guild imploded and I went from 50 to 60 guildless. I then started joining PUGs for Blackrock runs. And once I'd got my foot in the door, so to speak, I never had a problem getting a spot. I used my hybrid talents effectively, and while I wasn't tops in DPS, I placed well on the meters, I also placed well on the heal meters. More importantly I was a "squishies" BFF. I saw my job as getting anything that aggro'd to my "squishies" as my nemesis. I would even die to save them, and did a couple of times.

Thing is to a min/maxer I was an aberration, I shouldn't of existed. More importantly shouldn't be viable and take up a RAID spot that a more competent DPSer could take. And you know what? The min/maxers won. The developers started tailoring RAIDs to the holy trinity of tank/heal/DPS and slowly pushed all hybrid builds from the game. Now there really isn't any hybrids in WoW, and more importantly every "build" is just as viable for their holy trinity spot as any other. But they're also boring as hell! They might use different mechanics, but all tanks builds are tanks, heals heals, DPS DPS. You no longer have a RAID teetering on the edge of a wipe and have one obscure build use a even more obscure talent/spell and prevent the whole thing going south. Instead it's spell rotations, and meters, and all the spreadsheet data that the *** among us get their rocks off to.

If everyone including the developers continually use the mantra "Hybrids don't work" it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. No one runs hybrids, so the developers don't use any RAID/game mechanics that would benefit from a hybrid being there, and pretty soon, no more hybrids. In fact the ability to build a hybrid is no longer there, and eventually we end up with a class/build system like WoW currently enjoys. No allowance for originality and thinking outside the box. Again boring as hell.

Instead of being so dead set against hybrids why not let them take their collective shot? Okay maybe RAIDs containing hybrids won't be as efficient or have hybrids topping the meters, but they'll be a lot more thinking on your feet, by the seat of your pants fun. And I don't know about you, but I could care less about where I place on any meter or standings list, as long as there's one of us standing at the end of the fight it's cool. More importantly I'm playing to have fun, and so far I'm having a blast. Please don't take that away so you can prove a point.

RedFoxFour · April 2015

I have to say I agree with you gezzerb.

I come from the 'old skool' of pen and paper roleplaying and my first online MMO was Everquest 1.

Back in EQ1 I used to play a Bard. And people, at least early on, had such disapproval of Bards. Maybe because Bards (often at least) were hard to play in AD&D, and also because Bards had really poor DPS in Everquest. Only thing people liked about Bards was being grouped with them when moving from A to B since they had Selo (a buff that made you run super-fast).

When I grouped in Everquest as my bard I was often confronted by other players on why I played a bard. The DPS is poor. No healing. The CC from bard is subpar compared to enchanters. So on and so forth. However I kept playing the Bard. And in every group I played it was always the same, but I always convinced them that bards were, in fact, very useful.

So how did I do that? Because bards had bad DPS, they had subpar CC, they even had subpar haste buffs compared to shamans and enchanters.

Very simple.

When the group started questioning the usefulness of a bard... I simply turned off all my bard songs. What happened then?

The casters took 4 times longer to regen their manapools.
The fighters and rogues lost their haste buffs.
Noone was chainpulling (which bards did exceptionally well)
And it didn't matter if they pulled or had haste buffs, cause cleric was OOM anyhow.

Didn't take long before they begged me to turn songs back on.

Bards were not super good at one particular thing, but they increased the effectiveness of the group as a whole. A true hybrid class in the sense that you could do a bit of everything... damage, CC, pulling, buffs, fast travel et.c.

You don't see classes like the EQ bard anymore.

These days everything is measured from a min/max perspective where the only things that matter is:
How much damage can you tank
How much healing output can you do
How much DPS do you have

Most games don't even have a requirement for CC anymore. CC these days is simply a biproduct of the tanks ability to soak up damage.

I miss variety in MMO's, and I suppose that is one of the main reasons ESO is attractive to me. I can be a mage and play the game without it being only about chasing the +1 damage on my fireball.

Morvul · April 2015

personally, I lament the lack of support builds. Wheter they be "hyrid" or pure magicka/Stamina based.

I'm coming from LoTRO, where I used to play a Loremaster. Bevore they completely revamped their classes and turned my Loremaster into an AoE-DPS monster, it actually used to be a pure support class:

weak healing, weak DPS (but crazy AoE burst on a 5 minute cooldown).
but great debuffs and amazing crowdcontrol.
A loremaster who knew what he was doing could reduce the damage a raid was taking by over 70%...

very few people played Loremasters well, which synergized with the fact that there was never a reason to have two of them in a raid. but a single, competent loremaster was pretty much required to do the most challenging content.

But then, turbine decided to make pretty much every boss in the game immune against loremaster CC and debuffs, leaving loremasters without a role. Que class revamp into a dps class...

I see a very simmilar trend here in ESO:
I picked sorcerer, because it seemed to have a best amount of ranged Crowd-Control options.
But nowadays, everything I would ever want to CC is immune to it... so why slot CC? (outside of PvP)

Ironblaze · April 2015

Seeing as my main character has been a Sorcerer who primarily uses a greatsword, bow, and stamina damage, with magicka only really used for Critical Surge and the summons, I'd say the odd-ball hybrids works. Personally, I love having the option to make the ridiculous builds just to see what actually does the job.