"Get a bow"...

Miszou · March 2015

Some interesting replies here... and yes, I do have enough points to invest in another couple of skill lines, and now with the addition of that add-on I found, I'll certainly be looking to expand my utility.

But... I still find it kind of a weird design decision to effectively force people to use ranged weapons - especially once you've spent the first 50 levels facerolling everything in sight with a 2-hander. I mean, are there dungeons where ranged characters are forced into melee range? Or is it just that melee needs to be able to adapt more than ranged? Is there any actual disadvantage to just using ranged all the time?

$infraction2008b16_ESO$ · March 2015

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Here is a list of Veteran Dungeon bosses that pretty much require DPS to use ranged and their reasons why:

- Fungal Grotto, 2nd boss: everyone needs to spread out or else the chain beam attack will kill someone in two seconds when scaled to VR14

Doesn't mean you need ranged only, just means you need people who are aware of the mechanic and act fast. I've never had an issue with this as melee.

- Banished Cells, Keeper Imidral: 10x easier for ranged DPS because of the red AOE circles that spawn everywhere. If you want to stay alive, you find a nice safe spot on the ground and stay there and range the boss. If you try to melee the boss, you will be standing in red most of the fight.

Not really, if the tank is good at positioning you wont have a problem as melee. The only times I run into issues is when the tank themselves were surrounding themselves with orbs making it more tricky to hit the boss however melee range is still 5-7 meters in this game so you can adjust slightly and hit at that max range.

-

Crypt of Hearts, second to last boss: If you melee the boss, your group will wipe. Why? She throws an AOE fire circle to each group member. If you are meleeing the boss, the fire circle will fall very close to the boss. When the boss drags everyone inwards and holds them for 4 seconds, you will be hit by the fire circle and die. There's nothing you can do to stop it. Nothing. Don't EVER melee this boss.

Again this is where max melee range comes in handy, you don't have to be at 0m to dps a target. You can make her drop the circle just outside where she pulls you in.

- Hel Ra, first boss: The boss will do a whirlwind attack during the execute phase. If you are melee you will instantly die. You must kite the boss or stay ranged in order to survive.

Only for 30% of the fight, providing you're watching the hp percentage you can do what ever you like for the other 70% or so.

- AA, first boss: When you are standing in the yellow circles, you are usually far away from the boss. If you ever move from the yellow circle, you pretty much die.

The yellow circles are a mechanics check, problem with this fight though is most MMO devs would of made a boss like this immune during those phases in order so ranged didn't have a huge advantage over melee DPS and everyone had the same DPS window. Being ranged isn't required to run to a circle or beat this encounter however they will have the higher DPS output on the boss due to having a wider DPS window where melee can only DPS between the lightning blast and yellow circle spawn. Only groups looking to get a faster time will groan about this though.

Jice · March 2015

Miszou wrote: »

I mean, are there dungeons where ranged characters are forced into melee range?

Healing Mechanics tend to do this by default. If there's a Group AoE damage spam from a boss, ala, the Quake from the Blood spawn, a Healer will not be able to keep up two separate groups through the damage so everyone has to stack in the Healing Springs Area which tends to be were the tank is, AKA, in Melee.

First Boss in AA is the same, Also The Mad Architect has a room AoE that doesn't damage only when you're close to him. Plus don't forget those frost rings some battlemages have, the only safe place is to stand still in the middle or outside of it.

So yes, there are plenty of mechanics that punish Ranged only as well.

-to op-

The best way to play is to be fluid, If ranged isn't your thing then being able to self heal yourself should be, asking the healer to get you to full every time you get hit by a whirlwind is putting a lot of pressure on one player to play for you.

spoqster · March 2015

Miszou wrote: »

Is there any actual disadvantage to just using ranged all the time?

Depends. Destro staff users have force shoch and impulse, so they have good single target and aoe damage. They are versatile. Bow is missing good, spammable aoe damage, so you need to combine it with either 2H or DW.

spoqster · March 2015

Miszou wrote: »

But... I still find it kind of a weird design decision to effectively force people to use ranged weapons - especially once you've spent the first 50 levels facerolling everything in sight with a 2-hander.

I would say you got it the wrong way round. I find it perfectly logical that you will need a versatile and tuned build to take on the game's challenges. Build meta gaming should be a central element of this type of game.

The real problem is that the 1-50 content is so absurdly easy that you can steamroll through anything with anything, so that players are never forced or even incentivized to really tune and adapt their builds.

I respect your position that you don't like to copy other people's builds, but reading up on good builds at sites like deltia's can give you a lot of inspiration on how certain skills work together. I have not yet copied a single build, but I sure as hell learned a lot from the community. Being able to solo groups in Craglorn where I was getting nuked before, simply because I combined skills that I had on separate bars before really opened up new avenues for me. Most of all it makes you look at build creation in a different way and that makes the game much richer for me.

Miszou · March 2015

Ok, I just bought a bow and am running around ColdHarbor leveling it up at ludicrous speed.

It works quite well with my existing stamina pool, and if things go south, I can always switch to my 2-handed sword.

It's actually quite interesting, although I still think I should be able to RP an Argonian SwordBeast without having to resort to plinking away at things with a stick and a piece of sting.

exiledtyrant · March 2015

Honestly it's the required ranged factor that turned me off from vet dungeons. I wound up going to two of my first ever dungeons last week both at vet level for crypt of hearts and fungal grotto. Both times it was us three random melee and a ranged healer and we got them done but it took like 2 and a half hours. My lack of dungeon experience and my lack of gear level certainly played into it but unending melee cheese certainly had a large impact. It is simply easier to range on all accounts from what I've experienced. I don't see how I can do my entire leveling process and pvp as melee but every other boss in a dungeon makes me switch my play style.

That or follow extremely complex movement patterns and group rotation in a melee group. For instance that 2nd to last boss in crypt of hearts can be killed with melee if you rotate her fire circle and then rotate the group each pull phase it's just a major pain and test of coordination. The last fungal grotto boss can be killed by melee if you get her black pools to leak in a certain area which afford you about 5-7 second up time per shift. Again a nightmare to move properly. If the pain was dealt out fairly for melee and ranged I could maybe sympathize even If I don't like it but it doesn't feel that way at all. In the end just not for me.

maryriv · March 2015

Miszou wrote: »

So... I just turned V1 and started running some vet pledges. They're definitely a step up in difficulty from the normal pledges, that's for sure!

Anyway, I just did one with a V14, who was most helpful about letting a couple of noobs know the fights and so forth. But we just couldn't take down the final boss (Giant Dwarven spider thing... DarkShade Caverns IIRC),and ended up bailing on it. Nothing wrong with that... my first time in there and I obviously need to increase my DPS by quite a bit.

But, the weird thing is, as we left, he basically said that almost all dungeons require a ranged attack of some kind, and that I should get a bow. My character is basically a two-handed nightblade (in medium armor), and I really have no interest in using a bow. I *might*, if pressed, learn to use a sword/shield so I can tank occasionally, but that would be it.

So, my question is, do I really need a bow? Are all the dungeons going to pretty much instagib me at close range?

The first 50 levels of the game have led me to believe that I was doing just fine, and only now I find out that I need a bow?

You have encountered two issues of which have been glaring for quiet some time. (speaking from beta perspective)

1. Leveling to 50 is extremely easy and dumbed down thus not preparing you for vet levels at all which is why most people hated vet.
2. Range DPS will always be superior to melee with the very rare exception of when you can stand still behind a boss in melee range and do your rotation.

My suggestion if you are a 2H leather wearer is, get a bow....

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · March 2015

Miszou wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Most fights allow for melee once you learn when to move in and out. The final boss in vet DSC is an exception. You pretty much must use ranged or die.

Good. That's really all I wanted to know. I have no problem moving in and out, dodging, attacking etc. at the right time, but if I can't even get close then I really don't see much point in continuing on.

I don't mind being "flexible" with my skills, but I'm not going to learn a whole new skill set that I have zero interest in, just to be able to compete. I thought the whole idea was that you could be whatever you wanted to be...

think of it this way, you basically max all your main skills, armor/ weapon by the end of v1 or sooner, the question is: do you want to play the game 2/3+ more and not level anything else? to me thats insane, they give you enough skillpoints to have multiple builds with the same character, if you dont utilize that when leveling your going to feel like a big fat idiot when you decide you wish you had somthing leveled and wasted all that exp always using maxed abilities.

yake82 · March 2015

I have been annoyed about this too. I wanted to play DW melee but if the bosses in this game arent shitting massive red circles, then they are constantly teleporting around.

ssewallb14_ESO · March 2015

You're at a disadvantage in some fights definitely, but It's not nearly as bad as some people are saying. The only fight where you completely fail without ranged as you've noticed is the engine guardian. With 3 teammates with at least average skill and understanding of the boss mechanics, you'll do fine.

Kartalin · March 2015

Miszou wrote: »

Ok, I just bought a bow and am running around ColdHarbor leveling it up at ludicrous speed.

It works quite well with my existing stamina pool, and if things go south, I can always switch to my 2-handed sword.

It's actually quite interesting, although I still think I should be able to RP an Argonian SwordBeast without having to resort to plinking away at things with a stick and a piece of sting.

2H/Bow combo is pretty popular. I use it in PVP with 5 heavy and 2 medium armor, with the heavy armor helping survivability. I don't know if you've used it at all, but you might try 5 medium and 2 heavy, see how it feels, and you still get your full set of medium bonus that way.

Artemiisia · March 2015

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Here is a list of Veteran Dungeon bosses that pretty much require DPS to use ranged and their reasons why:

- Fungal Grotto, 2nd boss: everyone needs to spread out or else the chain beam attack will kill someone in two seconds when scaled to VR14
- Fungal Grotto, last boss: you MUST be ranged the entire fight, or else you die from the big black portals
- Banished Cells, Keeper Imidral: 10x easier for ranged DPS because of the red AOE circles that spawn everywhere. If you want to stay alive, you find a nice safe spot on the ground and stay there and range the boss. If you try to melee the boss, you will be standing in red most of the fight.
- Darkshade Caverns, last boss: You MUST use ranged for the last boss. If you melee the boss during the fire stage, you insta-die. If you melee during the lightning phase, you insta-die.
- Crypt of Hearts, second to last boss: If you melee the boss, your group will wipe. Why? She throws an AOE fire circle to each group member. If you are meleeing the boss, the fire circle will fall very close to the boss. When the boss drags everyone inwards and holds them for 4 seconds, you will be hit by the fire circle and die. There's nothing you can do to stop it. Nothing. Don't EVER melee this boss.
- City of Ash, Ash Titan: This boss is very, very difficult. If you are melee, you will not be able to avoid the fire waves. You will also not be able to kite the adds and attack the boss at the same time, which is a strategy used by most advanced groups.
- City of Ash, last boss: many groups will use a technique where the tank stands on one platform and everyone else stands on another. This means that the DPS must be ranged for the entire fight. If you aren't using this technique, you can do melee.

Trials
- Hel Ra, first boss: The boss will do a whirlwind attack during the execute phase. If you are melee you will instantly die. You must kite the boss or stay ranged in order to survive.
- AA, first boss: When you are standing in the yellow circles, you are usually far away from the boss. If you ever move from the yellow circle, you pretty much die.

Don't be a noob. Learn to pull out a bow on these bosses.

A great list and well written, reading it like this, is for sure easier to see why a range weapon is needed, didnt even think it was that many just thinking back.

There are only one for me that actually can be done as melee fighter, City of Ash. Ash Titan: if u stay at its tail all the time, you will avoid the fire waves, it takes some adjustment, I do it as a sorc range fighter, putting myself in melee range, so my thurndering skill will proc my valkyn meteor and I never die

WraithAzraiel · March 2015

The versatile warrior is the efficient warrior.

Confucious say.

yake82 · March 2015

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

You're at a disadvantage in some fights definitely, but It's not nearly as bad as some people are saying. The only fight where you completely fail without ranged as you've noticed is the engine guardian. With 3 teammates with at least average skill and understanding of the boss mechanics, you'll do fine.

The disadvantage is not that bad as people think, its worse.

Melee dd spend so much time running around and dodging aoe that they will never be comparable to ranged dd.

Rilis -> Tons of aoe and teleporting, running after the orbs and cleansing debuff
Bogdan -> massive amounts of aoe to dodge + adds to run after
Vila Theran -> cant melee
Nerieneth -> large room with teleporting and aoe spammage
Engine Guardian -> cant melee
Ruzodigrigorafgajanggn -> if you get targeted by the following aoe, your dps stops
Ilambris dudes -> gargantuan amount of aoe
Teethnasher -> permanent no-go-zone around boss
Mephalas Fang -> small room with poison aoe
Shadow Guard -> sits in aoe whole fight
Gamyne Bandu -> Tank and melee dd getting beamed, hmmm....
Malubeth -> Room filled with aoe and need to run around pulling switches
Garron the Returned -> ranged adds
And there are several bosses who swing their 2-hander above their head, forcing melee to take distance

The only melee friendly dungeon afaik is Spindleclutch.
The only boss i can think of that has some form of anti-range mechanic is the Mad Architect.

So if you want to stay at melee range, do what i do: tank.
Otherwise, get the bow.

Evandus · March 2015

Pugs are not pros though. Many folks I've encountered there are running builds that are not optimized. Including myself at times on one of my dps builds. They are missing a Valkyn helm or Cyrodiil's Light rings or some such thing. Dps is good, but not maxxed. Ran a few pugs today while doing undaunted pledges that were frustrating. Only time I'm seeing movement on the boss hp bar is when I'm in rotation on it. Of course this has equated to me gaining the aggro of the boss and the adds and going poof at some point in the fight.

Darkshade Caverns is really fun for me on my dps guys. But not since the changes. There are a lot of Two handed fighters running around with zero ranged options. It'll be nice to see that change.

eliisra · March 2015

Can mele a lot more than you think. Many mele skills have 7-8 meters, including Wrecking Blow. That's enough to avoid cleave mechanics. But you need to be a skilled player as far as awareness and reaction goes. Like really above average good.

I had 2-Handers mele'ing majority of the fight against Engine Guardian. You cant do it frontally, rather need to be behind or on the side of him, with perfect positioning, loads of dodge and constant movement while hitting. Horrible and magicka excessive on the healer no doubt, but the boss dies fast.

Still suggest any new players to slot a few ranged skills, bow or destro if you lack class skills. There's always disconnects, where you loose dps as mele. Some bosses being very mele unfriendly, like Vila Theran. It also adds pressure on the healer, since you will take more dmg and be out of range for AoE heals. Most pugs wont have a perfect healer curling and babysitting one mele hero, so be flexible.

NewBlacksmurf · March 2015

If you plan on playing in dungeons or raids you do need ranged
Basically if your dps your setup should allow you to stay alive and dmg close and far away

ssewallb14_ESO · March 2015

yake82 wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

You're at a disadvantage in some fights definitely, but It's not nearly as bad as some people are saying. The only fight where you completely fail without ranged as you've noticed is the engine guardian. With 3 teammates with at least average skill and understanding of the boss mechanics, you'll do fine.

The disadvantage is not that bad as people think, its worse.

Melee dd spend so much time running around and dodging aoe that they will never be comparable to ranged dd.

Rilis -> Tons of aoe and teleporting, running after the orbs and cleansing debuff
Bogdan -> massive amounts of aoe to dodge + adds to run after
Vila Theran -> cant melee
Nerieneth -> large room with teleporting and aoe spammage
Engine Guardian -> cant melee
Ruzodigrigorafgajanggn -> if you get targeted by the following aoe, your dps stops
Ilambris dudes -> gargantuan amount of aoe
Teethnasher -> permanent no-go-zone around boss
Mephalas Fang -> small room with poison aoe
Shadow Guard -> sits in aoe whole fight
Gamyne Bandu -> Tank and melee dd getting beamed, hmmm....
Malubeth -> Room filled with aoe and need to run around pulling switches
Garron the Returned -> ranged adds
And there are several bosses who swing their 2-hander above their head, forcing melee to take distance

The only melee friendly dungeon afaik is Spindleclutch.
The only boss i can think of that has some form of anti-range mechanic is the Mad Architect.

So if you want to stay at melee range, do what i do: tank.
Otherwise, get the bow.

The solution to 90% of this is use a gap closer, understand the range of abilities like wrecking blow, and bNb7pSY.jpg?1

I'll spot you Vila Theran though, although you can get hits on her it's unrealistic to melee that fight. And you'll probably have some down time against Malubeth but I don't think the fight is hard enough for it to matter if everyone understands the mechanics. Same thing with Teethnasher, one ranged could probably solo him, including the healer.

jircris11 · March 2015

Miszou wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Most fights allow for melee once you learn when to move in and out. The final boss in vet DSC is an exception. You pretty much must use ranged or die.

Good. That's really all I wanted to know. I have no problem moving in and out, dodging, attacking etc. at the right time, but if I can't even get close then I really don't see much point in continuing on.

I don't mind being "flexible" with my skills, but I'm not going to learn a whole new skill set that I have zero interest in, just to be able to compete. I thought the whole idea was that you could be whatever you wanted to be...

every character i play has a range and a melee option, I don't like bow ether but when those bosses throw a tantrum and push me out from melee range id like to continue helping my group. They give you two weapon slots for a reason after all. Usually the same weapon will be on them only if you are a healer.

yake82 · March 2015

Well, sure. You can kill both Vila Theran and Engine Guardian with melee dps. The point is that there is no really reason to go melee if you can deal damage at range.

My personal favorite boss is Gamyne Bandu.
Simply because Zen came up with boss mechanics other than insane aoe shitting.

WhiskyBob · March 2015

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Here is a list of Veteran Dungeon bosses that pretty much require DPS to use ranged and their reasons why:

- Fungal Grotto, 2nd boss: everyone needs to spread out or else the chain beam attack will kill someone in two seconds when scaled to VR14
- Fungal Grotto, last boss: you MUST be ranged the entire fight, or else you die from the big black portals
- Banished Cells, Keeper Imidral: 10x easier for ranged DPS because of the red AOE circles that spawn everywhere. If you want to stay alive, you find a nice safe spot on the ground and stay there and range the boss. If you try to melee the boss, you will be standing in red most of the fight.
- Darkshade Caverns, last boss: You MUST use ranged for the last boss. If you melee the boss during the fire stage, you insta-die. If you melee during the lightning phase, you insta-die.
- Crypt of Hearts, second to last boss: If you melee the boss, your group will wipe. Why? She throws an AOE fire circle to each group member. If you are meleeing the boss, the fire circle will fall very close to the boss. When the boss drags everyone inwards and holds them for 4 seconds, you will be hit by the fire circle and die. There's nothing you can do to stop it. Nothing. Don't EVER melee this boss.
- City of Ash, Ash Titan: This boss is very, very difficult. If you are melee, you will not be able to avoid the fire waves. You will also not be able to kite the adds and attack the boss at the same time, which is a strategy used by most advanced groups.
- City of Ash, last boss: many groups will use a technique where the tank stands on one platform and everyone else stands on another. This means that the DPS must be ranged for the entire fight. If you aren't using this technique, you can do melee.

Trials
- Hel Ra, first boss: The boss will do a whirlwind attack during the execute phase. If you are melee you will instantly die. You must kite the boss or stay ranged in order to survive.
- AA, first boss: When you are standing in the yellow circles, you are usually far away from the boss. If you ever move from the yellow circle, you pretty much die.

Don't be a noob. Learn to pull out a bow on these bosses.

- Fungal Grotto, 2nd boss - chain beam can be dodge rolled
- Fungal Grotto last boss - Agree, ranged needed
- Banished Cells - Keeper Imidral - you wont be standing in red the entire fight, he teleports alot anyway
- Darkshade Caverns last boss - If you have eyes you wont have any problem avoiding fire during fire phase, during lightning phase your focus should be spheres not the boss
- Crypt of Hearts - lure the fire circle (its usually at the beginning of the fight) to land on the outermost area of the fight, when you see him cast another one before the pull (which means your DPS sucks) just try to angle it out.
- City of Ash - Ash Titan has a huge hitbox. Fire waves can be easily avoided, fire waves wont kill you unless you have 1200 hp or are a vampire
- City of Ash last boss - If your tank has brains and knows how to move the boss on the platform just follow the tank
- HRC first boss - just move away from him when he begins to cast his whirwind. You dont have to kite the boss, DK tank just pops Magma Shell and just stands there laughing in his face
- AA first boss - you are loosing DPS anyway during the circle phase, 1 more second of not dpsing as a melee dps doesnt change a thing.