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I guess it was too much to expect Trials to give good Experience
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Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »If we are not supposed to max out our champion points, why were they implemented all at once? Bait?
If Zenimax is not prepared to handle a number of players with maxed CPs, why are they in place in the first place? I agree, we are not supposed to reach 3600 CPs, so that possibility shouldn't be available in the game at all, instead they are very much available, Zenimax is just making it impossible to reach them, while at the same time making most of their end game content (tat is extremely limited and will be so for several months) even less rewarding. Not to mention they are making it nearly impossible for players at max level to rank up their skills and new weapons. Yup, ZoS is doing a great job.
They're not making them impossible to get, they're making it impossible to get them all in a short span of time. The patch hasn't even been out more than a month. It's designed to be there for the long haul. I'm currently at 90. I didn't join in any grindfests. I didn't xploit my way up. I just *played* the game. Did writs. Did dungeons. Did pledges. Did PVP. I didn't say I'm going to get x points per day. I said I'm going to do this dungeon with a friend, and knock out this quest because I haven't before, and kill these mobs because they're in the way of me getting a resource node.
The point flying over alot of people's heads is that this is meant to be paced out over a large span of time. If you do get super powerful, it should come at the end of a journey, not be over and done with in a month or even a year.
Extremely long progressions will never work well in games because of the gamer's mentality, ZoS should have done their research better. If they wanted to limit CP gain, why not simply limit it? Put a daily cap, a weekly cap, a monthly cap, which ever.
And even more, if they are really interested in slowing player's progression through the veteran system, why are they releasing a Exp potion? Don't you think that is slightly contradictory?
"Oh, we don't want you to get your CPs too fast because it would be bad for the game, but hey! If you pay us more money we will let you get more Cps, screw the game's health!"0 -
LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
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It's more like the tires on the "WoW car" are cracked, slightly deflated and bald. Yet some people want ZOS to take the same cracked, slightly deflated, bald tires and put them on the "ESO car". Instead we're advocating ZOS goes and finds a new set of tires that are as good if not better now than the tires on the "WoW car" were at the time.WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »Sniperino....This game is not WoW. It should not be WoW. WoW is not a game any other new MMO's or new IP's should aspire to be, unless they want to be a dull rehash of rehashes coated in crap and wrapped in gold leaf.
Heh. After that long winded wall of text (it seems you're the one who's doing the "screaming and bellowing" friend), you completely misunderstood what people were saying regarding this. Hint: no-one is saying ESO should be WoW, just that we should avoid putting square wheels on our car because other cars have round wheels.
Unfortunately ZoS current inventive solution are "square tires", not something that works better than WoW's old, bald solution.
You're right, but I have faith they will find something that does work better than WoW's solution that works with the goals ZOS has for the game. It just might take more time than some people would like.
NerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/160 -
WarrioroftheWind_ESO✭✭✭✭WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »If we are not supposed to max out our champion points, why were they implemented all at once? Bait?
If Zenimax is not prepared to handle a number of players with maxed CPs, why are they in place in the first place? I agree, we are not supposed to reach 3600 CPs, so that possibility shouldn't be available in the game at all, instead they are very much available, Zenimax is just making it impossible to reach them, while at the same time making most of their end game content (tat is extremely limited and will be so for several months) even less rewarding. Not to mention they are making it nearly impossible for players at max level to rank up their skills and new weapons. Yup, ZoS is doing a great job.
They're not making them impossible to get, they're making it impossible to get them all in a short span of time. The patch hasn't even been out more than a month. It's designed to be there for the long haul. I'm currently at 90. I didn't join in any grindfests. I didn't xploit my way up. I just *played* the game. Did writs. Did dungeons. Did pledges. Did PVP. I didn't say I'm going to get x points per day. I said I'm going to do this dungeon with a friend, and knock out this quest because I haven't before, and kill these mobs because they're in the way of me getting a resource node.
The point flying over alot of people's heads is that this is meant to be paced out over a large span of time. If you do get super powerful, it should come at the end of a journey, not be over and done with in a month or even a year.
It's a cheap method to keep the hamster running on the wheel for as long as possible. It needs serious reworking or people will leave in droves again, as they did when they hit the original VR wall. It almost pains me to see a company be given an incredibly rare second chance like this and keep making the same mistakes that hurt them last time. We need a game that appeals to more than the happily skinner-boxed, obsessive compulsives. Dynamic content would be a good start (and no 'programming is hard' arguments please, ZOS has a huge team of devs, billion dollar parent company and also plenty of other smaller MMOs have managed to produce much more regular and dynamic content).
If the hamster doesn't have a wheel to run on they get bored and cease functioning. They are creatures of habit and need something to do, or else they get destructive and start pooping all over the place.
I would argue that there needs to be more solo-oriented content, but I'm making do trying out things I'd been avoiding previously. I would also argue that a group-finding tool kind of deprives players of the social aspect in finding and engaging with a group. Here I'm forced to rely upon close friends or keep an eye open for pugs. In contrast other MMO's with automated group-finding tools, I find myself in a group I do not engage with, and sometimes just don't even get along with. I might get stuck with a tank who is too squishy or tries to kick a friend of mine because he feels they're doing sub-par dps when they haven't even cleared the first boss yet. Such systems provide for fast access to content but at the price of establishing the relations a social game is dependent on. The people I clear with one time will not be there the second. They might as well be NPCs for all I care, I wouldn't add them to buddies, they wouldn't care about socializing. They'd just care about getting it done and over with. That is what would cause social death.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭
It's more like the tires on the "WoW car" are cracked, slightly deflated and bald. Yet some people want ZOS to take the same cracked, slightly deflated, bald tires and put them on the "ESO car". Instead we're advocating ZOS goes and finds a new set of tires that are as good if not better now than the tires on the "WoW car" were at the time.WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »Sniperino....This game is not WoW. It should not be WoW. WoW is not a game any other new MMO's or new IP's should aspire to be, unless they want to be a dull rehash of rehashes coated in crap and wrapped in gold leaf.
Heh. After that long winded wall of text (it seems you're the one who's doing the "screaming and bellowing" friend), you completely misunderstood what people were saying regarding this. Hint: no-one is saying ESO should be WoW, just that we should avoid putting square wheels on our car because other cars have round wheels.
Unfortunately ZoS current inventive solution are "square tires", not something that works better than WoW's old, bald solution.
You're right, but I have faith they will find something that does work better than WoW's solution that works with the goals ZOS has for the game. It just might take more time than some people would like.
Meanwhile, End-Game content withers and dies.WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »If we are not supposed to max out our champion points, why were they implemented all at once? Bait?
If Zenimax is not prepared to handle a number of players with maxed CPs, why are they in place in the first place? I agree, we are not supposed to reach 3600 CPs, so that possibility shouldn't be available in the game at all, instead they are very much available, Zenimax is just making it impossible to reach them, while at the same time making most of their end game content (tat is extremely limited and will be so for several months) even less rewarding. Not to mention they are making it nearly impossible for players at max level to rank up their skills and new weapons. Yup, ZoS is doing a great job.
They're not making them impossible to get, they're making it impossible to get them all in a short span of time. The patch hasn't even been out more than a month. It's designed to be there for the long haul. I'm currently at 90. I didn't join in any grindfests. I didn't xploit my way up. I just *played* the game. Did writs. Did dungeons. Did pledges. Did PVP. I didn't say I'm going to get x points per day. I said I'm going to do this dungeon with a friend, and knock out this quest because I haven't before, and kill these mobs because they're in the way of me getting a resource node.
The point flying over alot of people's heads is that this is meant to be paced out over a large span of time. If you do get super powerful, it should come at the end of a journey, not be over and done with in a month or even a year.
It's a cheap method to keep the hamster running on the wheel for as long as possible. It needs serious reworking or people will leave in droves again, as they did when they hit the original VR wall. It almost pains me to see a company be given an incredibly rare second chance like this and keep making the same mistakes that hurt them last time. We need a game that appeals to more than the happily skinner-boxed, obsessive compulsives. Dynamic content would be a good start (and no 'programming is hard' arguments please, ZOS has a huge team of devs, billion dollar parent company and also plenty of other smaller MMOs have managed to produce much more regular and dynamic content).
If the hamster doesn't have a wheel to run on they get bored and cease functioning. They are creatures of habit and need something to do, or else they get destructive and start pooping all over the place.
I would argue that there needs to be more solo-oriented content, but I'm making do trying out things I'd been avoiding previously. I would also argue that a group-finding tool kind of deprives players of the social aspect in finding and engaging with a group. Here I'm forced to rely upon close friends or keep an eye open for pugs. In contrast other MMO's with automated group-finding tools, I find myself in a group I do not engage with, and sometimes just don't even get along with. I might get stuck with a tank who is too squishy or tries to kick a friend of mine because he feels they're doing sub-par dps when they haven't even cleared the first boss yet. Such systems provide for fast access to content but at the price of establishing the relations a social game is dependent on. The people I clear with one time will not be there the second. They might as well be NPCs for all I care, I wouldn't add them to buddies, they wouldn't care about socializing. They'd just care about getting it done and over with. That is what would cause social death.
We are not hamsters, running on that wheel without any additional reward other than running is getting both boring and old. Without new content in sight, no experience gain, an unachievable CP cap and gear that is both unattractive to the eyes ( Wise Mage set, anyone?) and for their stats (any AA / Hel-ra Gear), ESO's future seems very gray and boring indeed.2 -
LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
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The other reason is they don't want people grinding CP all day at a rate that forces others to grind if they want to stay on pace with the grinders. Also keep in mind most of the popular grind spots were full blown exploits(Kardala, Shadow, Scorpin, Rkund). XP gains across the board need to be as close to true parity as possible regardless of preferred playstyle due to the champion system.Is it just me or all this nerfs to exp gain coincide with their intention to release a exp potion??
It seems to be the case. Most other MMOs have spots/mobs that you can grind for massive results, almost an exploit. The reason why these MMOs keep these in the game, is because some people like to play the game like this, but most others don't. So it gives their players a choice, how they want to play the game. The only real reason to remove this choice is because it will generate money from their cash shop. Expect to see more of these kinds of decisions in the future.
*This reasoning does not require a tinfoil hat*
If their leveling system is so flawed not to allow people to reach max level without becoming gods, the problem is with their system, not with experience gain or with players that prefer leveling through grinding.
In addition, by nerfing exp gain so hard Zenimax is making nearly impossible to level up skills at late game. Considering the amount of changes to morphs we had with 1.6 that policy is just stupid.
The champion system has it's flaws but let's be real for a second. If all XP gains across all playstyles are given a sort of parity that's better for the game as a whole. Take the champion system out and look at the XP gains. Why should grinding mobs be so much more efficient than doing PVP or questing? If you ask me that never should have been the case. XP gain should not play favorites with people's preferred playstyles.
While I agree with you to a certain extent, this is still an MMO. Grinding is traditionally a fast, efficient way of reaching the max level and enjoy late game content. Why is that important? Because players want and sometimes need more than one character and they shouldn't be forced to go over every quest again for it.
If the story changed every time you played, that would be ok, but the story is the same, so you are being forced to read the same book multiple times. No matter how great the story is, eventually, it gets old, stale and boring, which are all horrible adjectives to associate with a game.
I think questing and PvPing and Raiding and Dungeon Diving should give more exp instead of having grinds give NO EXP. And that is exactly what we have right now... DSA is the new grind (because seriously, Normal DSA is grind) while other contents offer no rewards. There is nothing attractive about AA and Hel Ra Citadel right now, the gear is horrible, the exp gain is laughable, the difficulty is considerably higher... The result, last week's weekly challenge didn't have 100 groups up...
Another result, PvE guilds all over are dying, going inactive...
Just because it's traditionally quicker than questing doesn't mean it should be, does it? There are plenty of truths in this world that shouldn't be true, so I'm not sure I consider that a valid arguing point. I get why people grind, but it leaves other playstyle preferences in the dust, and I personally don't approve of that being accepted as the status quo. Now obviously some types of players will always be left behind, such as the more casual player. Though they're not interested in competing in the late-game anyways though, so I'm not sure that should factor in too much either.
While I see where you're coming from with the bolded statement I disagree. I think the leveling speed is exactly where ZOS wants it to be and in a good place overall. It's faster than it was in beta but not too fast. I think grinding exceeds the leveling speeds that ZOS wants to see, so they nerfed those grinds. You can still grind and have it be much more efficient than questing or PVP from 1-50, and I think ZOS is blanket nerfing post 50 grinds(exploit or not) as a quick and easy band-aid until they remove vet ranks from the game. Which is probably for the best. It seems like an awful waste of resources to attempt to balance something that's going to get the axe within the foreseeable future.
NerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/160 -
xMovingTarget✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well, easiest would be to grant high XP for killing the endboss instead of increasing all the mobs. So ppl cant grind the first packs over and over again. Same as they did with the undaunted helmets.2 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
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The other reason is they don't want people grinding CP all day at a rate that forces others to grind if they want to stay on pace with the grinders. Also keep in mind most of the popular grind spots were full blown exploits(Kardala, Shadow, Scorpin, Rkund). XP gains across the board need to be as close to true parity as possible regardless of preferred playstyle due to the champion system.Is it just me or all this nerfs to exp gain coincide with their intention to release a exp potion??
It seems to be the case. Most other MMOs have spots/mobs that you can grind for massive results, almost an exploit. The reason why these MMOs keep these in the game, is because some people like to play the game like this, but most others don't. So it gives their players a choice, how they want to play the game. The only real reason to remove this choice is because it will generate money from their cash shop. Expect to see more of these kinds of decisions in the future.
*This reasoning does not require a tinfoil hat*
If their leveling system is so flawed not to allow people to reach max level without becoming gods, the problem is with their system, not with experience gain or with players that prefer leveling through grinding.
In addition, by nerfing exp gain so hard Zenimax is making nearly impossible to level up skills at late game. Considering the amount of changes to morphs we had with 1.6 that policy is just stupid.
The champion system has it's flaws but let's be real for a second. If all XP gains across all playstyles are given a sort of parity that's better for the game as a whole. Take the champion system out and look at the XP gains. Why should grinding mobs be so much more efficient than doing PVP or questing? If you ask me that never should have been the case. XP gain should not play favorites with people's preferred playstyles.
While I agree with you to a certain extent, this is still an MMO. Grinding is traditionally a fast, efficient way of reaching the max level and enjoy late game content. Why is that important? Because players want and sometimes need more than one character and they shouldn't be forced to go over every quest again for it.
If the story changed every time you played, that would be ok, but the story is the same, so you are being forced to read the same book multiple times. No matter how great the story is, eventually, it gets old, stale and boring, which are all horrible adjectives to associate with a game.
I think questing and PvPing and Raiding and Dungeon Diving should give more exp instead of having grinds give NO EXP. And that is exactly what we have right now... DSA is the new grind (because seriously, Normal DSA is grind) while other contents offer no rewards. There is nothing attractive about AA and Hel Ra Citadel right now, the gear is horrible, the exp gain is laughable, the difficulty is considerably higher... The result, last week's weekly challenge didn't have 100 groups up...
Another result, PvE guilds all over are dying, going inactive...
Just because it's traditionally quicker than questing doesn't mean it should be, does it? There are plenty of truths in this world that shouldn't be true, so I'm not sure I consider that a valid arguing point. I get why people grind, but it leaves other playstyle preferences in the dust, and I personally don't approve of that being accepted as the status quo. Now obviously some types of players will always be left behind, such as the more casual player. Though they're not interested in competing in the late-game anyways though, so I'm not sure that should factor in too much either.
While I see where you're coming from with the bolded statement I disagree. I think the leveling speed is exactly where ZOS wants it to be and in a good place overall. It's faster than it was in beta but not too fast. I think grinding exceeds the leveling speeds that ZOS wants to see, so they nerfed those grinds. You can still grind and have it be much more efficient than questing or PVP from 1-50, and I think ZOS is blanket nerfing post 50 grinds(exploit or not) as a quick and easy band-aid until they remove vet ranks from the game. Which is probably for the best. It seems like an awful waste of resources to attempt to balance something that's going to get the axe within the foreseeable future.
Yes, it should be truth. One simple reason? Because you won't play the game one time, but several times to have characters of different classes leveled up for convenience. A game shouldn't force you to go through the same content over and over, months of rather slow progression so you can have one additional character to play late game.
It is like being forced to read the same book over and over. It is boring.
Not to mention that nerfs to exp gain across the board mean it is nearly impossible to level new weapons and new skills once you have no more quests to go through, cause ZoS repeatable quests are joke. Some you can't solo, which makes progression even slower as you have to spend an hour looking for more people wanting to level skills, or you have to do the same quest over and over in Cyrodiil to gain almost no exp reward.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭xMovingTarget wrote: »Well, easiest would be to grant high XP for killing the endboss instead of increasing all the mobs. So ppl cant grind the first packs over and over again. Same as they did with the undaunted helmets.
Which would restrict exp gain to groups that can actually kill the last boss. Not that many can at the moment.
As for what they did to the undaunted helmets. What a joke, Mephala's Head now doesn't drop from Mephala... Seriously... I understand they didn't want people farming the helmets (which is really stupid because they really want people farming the helmets), but they should have thought about this before releasing the damn things and made so the helmets were always compatible with the last bosses.0 -
WarrioroftheWind_ESO✭✭✭✭We are not hamsters, running on that wheel without any additional reward other than running is getting both boring and old. Without new content in sight, no experience gain, an unachievable CP cap and gear that is both unattractive to the eyes ( Wise Mage set, anyone?) and for their stats (any AA / Hel-ra Gear), ESO's future seems very gray and boring indeed.
What is your definition of achievable? A year? Two? If the reward is the cap, then you are clearly meant to run. I'm just incredibly confused about what expectations players have regarding CP cap. To me it seems the people who get bored most are the ones who burn up everything there is in a incredibly short period of time then complain about there being nothing to do because they felt they had to rush through everything. Even more so are the people who focus solely on one element of gameplay and snub everything else there is to offer claiming it isn't 'content' when it actually is. Again, players of that mentality will never be satisfied, not in this MMO or any other, and if it were another they'd be playing that.
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XP on Bosses increasing from 1st to the last, and a big amount of XP for completion. Easy.
But please at least try to calculate how many times people can do Trials a day so the XP matches what you want, even if people do it over and over and over.4 -
Seraphyel✭✭✭✭✭So, less than 24 hours after buffing the exp gain in trials you nerf it all the way to the ground again @ZoS?
I am PvE leader of a rather large guild in ESO and at the moment I need over 40 minutes to convince players to come into a Trial run, but hey, nerf it away. Give us a glimpse of hope that the efforts we put in completing your Raids will actually have some slightly meaningful reward just to take it away a few hours later because people are "exploiting" it.
Stop it, you dummies! Stop wanting us not to earn experience just so you can sell stupid EXP pots in a week or so! Gods, the greed.
Right now your Trials give us NOTHING! The gear for AA and Hel Ra Citadel are CRAP. Let me say it again, your Trial Gear is CRAP! Almost no one is interested in completing a content you guys made it harder and far less rewarding! Experience wasn't enough of a buff, but at least it was SOMETHING! A glimpse of hope that maybe, maybe you guys will make it worth the time to do the late game content of this game. I guess it isn't happening though. It is too exploitable! May damage your profits with EXP Pots...
What do you think of?
They clearly doesn't know what they do. I doubt they even think about their changes or adjustements.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »We are not hamsters, running on that wheel without any additional reward other than running is getting both boring and old. Without new content in sight, no experience gain, an unachievable CP cap and gear that is both unattractive to the eyes ( Wise Mage set, anyone?) and for their stats (any AA / Hel-ra Gear), ESO's future seems very gray and boring indeed.
What is your definition of achievable? A year? Two? If the reward is the cap, then you are clearly meant to run. I'm just incredibly confused about what expectations players have regarding CP cap. To me it seems the people who get bored most are the ones who burn up everything there is in a incredibly short period of time then complain about there being nothing to do because they felt they had to rush through everything. Even more so are the people who focus solely on one element of gameplay and snub everything else there is to offer claiming it isn't 'content' when it actually is. Again, players of that mentality will never be satisfied, not in this MMO or any other, and if it were another they'd be playing that.
I actually didn't rush at all. On my main I did every quest, every dungeon and trial the game offers and had lots of fun with it. Unfortunately new content is not coming, so all I have is the late game content, trials, PvP, Dungeons, and those don't offer enough rewards. Trials are harder now, yet their gear are worse and the exp gain is just as bad. PvP is the same wall of LAG. Dungeons? ZoS increased the drop rate and removed the trait Sturdy for Shoulders, but they forgot to do the same for Helmets. Great.
As for what is achievable? Months, not years. At least if the leveling increases power.
And that is the huge mistake of the Champion System, instead of being several useful passives that could help in PvP, PvE and Utility, they are real power changes, adding base attributes to a god like final amount.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭rsiloliveiraub17_ESO wrote: »XP on Bosses increasing from 1st to the last, and a big amount of XP for completion. Easy.
But please at least try to calculate how many times people can do Trials a day so the XP matches what you want, even if people do it over and over and over.
Or just put a cap on daily CPs >.>0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭The easiest fix is this. Do NOT make the trash mobs give more xp. Instead stagger more xp over the bosses.
Example: First boss gives X experience, then next boss gives 30% more then the next boss gives 50% more than the previous one, and keep going until you get to the final boss. Have the final boss give a crap ton for completing it! @ZOS_PaulSage there you go. You now have your answer to trials xp. There is your incentive for completing a trial when it comes to xp. Now people can grind trials over and over again for exp. THE ENTIRE TRIAL! Wanna make it even sweeter? The less you have to revive people give them a xp multiplier. So the better you do (NOT time wise) the more xp your group will get.
In 5 minutes I solved the problem. Sure you could kill first boss and reset but you are already in the damn thing and greater tiers of xp await as long as you get past the first boss (where the multiplier begins) and complete the dungeon. Can I has special things now for solving your issue
Edited by Gorthax on March 25, 2015 12:23PM2