like previous posters, I'd suggest the following solution:

1) tie a significant chunk of the XP you want a trial to give to it's completion quest (I would suggest 40% of the total "XP-goal" for the trial)
2) Spread another 40-50% of the "total XP goal" among the Bosses.
3) leaving the thrash-XP as is, should then account for the remaining 10-20% of the XP a trial gives

4) give daily Veteran dungeons the same treatment
(for a lesser total XP value, obviously)

If people could work out an exploit in the first hours of the patch going live, one wonders why the 'MMO experts' at Zenimax couldn't see it coming...

... I do wonder if anyone at Zenimax has a clue, really...

Add to this that just a little 'back of a cigarette packet' theorising and the people on this thread have already come up with better, non-exploitable ways of rewarding trial runs and the level of cluelessness at Zenimax becomes even more apparent.

The fixes are OBVIOUS.

Keep the CP xp at pre-patch levels, increase each boss kill CP xp by 1000%, increase quest completion reward by the same amount and then award CP xp by 10x the score for completion.

Trash give something, but not exploitable. Each boss downed gives appropriate reward. Completing the quest is worth it, and getting a good score likewise.

On repeatable quests, do the same thing!

HOW HARD IS THIS PEOPLE!!!???

Footnote.

Currently, I can get 1.5K CP xp per pull of Vet 10 mobs in an area I use for grinding where the route I take sees the mobs respawning as I approach, endlessly, and with no more than a few seconds between group pulls, and groups die in about 5-6 seconds. With Enlightenment it takes about 20 minutes to get 1 CP. An hour and a half or so for a CP without Enlightenment.

Compared this to a Gold Pledge run, or a repeatable Craglorn Quest and it is 4-5 times faster gain with less of a repair bill and more saleable loot. Around 2K of stuff per 20 mins...

This is a stupid, stupid ratio.

The only faster way to get CP xp is to do DSA over and over, and I can't do that solo or with one other can I?

The game currently rewards the most boring and repetitive activities with the greatest gain.

BAD design...

Brandalf wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

pete5210b14_ESO wrote: »

Rhazmuz wrote: »

Do as other games:

Introduce lockout timers. When the first boss is killed, lock people to that specific instance for x amount of time. Then redistribute xp so that most of it comes from bosses, like 80 % of the total intended xp for doing that trial.

Then introduce token/trial xp system with vendors where you can buy trial gear with said currency. Bosses should drop/award this currency. This is to make up for the less available gear due to lockout.

This is not WoW, please stop trying to turn this into WoW

You mean a game that actually gets a lot of stuff right? Yeah, let's definitely not do that.

Then go play that game and stop trying to get ZOS to turn this game into that game. That game already exists, let ZOS and the rest of the developers in the MMO genre do their own thing for crying out loud. If you want WoW and you like WoW then go play WoW. If you want something different then let it be different and go through its growing pains.

I guess you've never heard the phrase "re-inventing the wheel."

The fact that you think that's applicable in this situation, hell this industry really says it all.

The fact that you think that you know what you are talking about is amusing.

But feel free to keep lobbying against tried-and-true game mechanics...I hope that works out for you.

I believe the words you're looking for are "outdated" and "tired". But sure keep trying to convince people that WoW's mechanics are the end all be all and that devs shouldn't try to innovate or improve upon them. Sometimes those attempts lead to misfires, other times they lead to truly revolutionary ideas. We should all just live in a world of horse-drawn carriages, iceboxes, rotary phones and wood burning stoves. Because those are "tried and true" and totally weren't succeeded by much better/more convenient things.

You do realize that you are talking about an MMO without a working group finder, don't you?

And you are aware that the largest change to this game's systems to date, the champion system, was very heavily inspired by the AA system from Everquest...as admitted by ESO developers?

And also that Cyrodiil is pretty much an amalgamation of every large-scale AvA system that came before it (including DAOC influences which are to be expected)?

So no, the developers are apparently not interested in your unrealistic design philosophies. And in the few cases where they tried to stray from what is already known to work well--such as global auction houses--large portions of their playerbase complained, and continue to do so here on the forums on practically a daily basis.

Innovation is one thing, but fixing things that aren't broken (especially when combined with the inability to fix things that are broken) is and never will be a solid design strategy.

And it seems that although you can't grasp this concept, luckily most modern game developers can...or else the majority of games would probably be downright unplayable.

Valymer wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

pete5210b14_ESO wrote: »

Rhazmuz wrote: »

Do as other games:

Introduce lockout timers. When the first boss is killed, lock people to that specific instance for x amount of time. Then redistribute xp so that most of it comes from bosses, like 80 % of the total intended xp for doing that trial.

Then introduce token/trial xp system with vendors where you can buy trial gear with said currency. Bosses should drop/award this currency. This is to make up for the less available gear due to lockout.

This is not WoW, please stop trying to turn this into WoW

You mean a game that actually gets a lot of stuff right? Yeah, let's definitely not do that.

Then go play that game and stop trying to get ZOS to turn this game into that game. That game already exists, let ZOS and the rest of the developers in the MMO genre do their own thing for crying out loud. If you want WoW and you like WoW then go play WoW. If you want something different then let it be different and go through its growing pains.

I guess you've never heard the phrase "re-inventing the wheel."

The fact that you think that's applicable in this situation, hell this industry really says it all.

The fact that you think that you know what you are talking about is amusing.

But feel free to keep lobbying against tried-and-true game mechanics...I hope that works out for you.

I believe the words you're looking for are "outdated" and "tired". But sure keep trying to convince people that WoW's mechanics are the end all be all and that devs shouldn't try to innovate or improve upon them. Sometimes those attempts lead to misfires, other times they lead to truly revolutionary ideas. We should all just live in a world of horse-drawn carriages, iceboxes, rotary phones and wood burning stoves. Because those are "tried and true" and totally weren't succeeded by much better/more convenient things.

You do realize that you are talking about an MMO without a working group finder, don't you?

And you are aware that the largest change to this game's systems to date, the champion system, was very heavily inspired by the AA system from Everquest...as admitted by ESO developers?

And also that Cyrodiil is pretty much an amalgamation of every large-scale AvA system that came before it (including DAOC influences which are to be expected)?

So no, the developers are apparently not interested in your unrealistic design philosophies. And in the few cases where they tried to stray from what is already known to work well--such as global auction houses--large portions of their playerbase complained, and continue to do so here on the forums on practically a daily basis.

Innovation is one thing, but fixing things that aren't broken (especially when combined with the inability to fix things that are broken) is and never will be a solid design strategy.

And it seems that although you can't grasp this concept, luckily most modern game developers can...or else the majority of games would probably be downright unplayable.

I have no problem with a developer taking something and making it their own or improving upon it. That's exactly what I'm expressing my support for. I do have a problem when people don't understand that if everything was taken from the leaders of the pack as is with no improvements or unique implementation then the industry stagnates because everything becomes the same and nothing is innovative or interesting anymore.

The specific mechanic suggested that triggered this series of posts was time outs. This is a system that's hated by just as many if not more people than those that support it. Yet since WoW did it it somehow becomes a "tried and true" mechanic. There are much, much better solutions to the issue at hand than how WoW handles it. Look at Wildstar to see how well it works out when developers try too hard to be like WoW.

Grao wrote: »

Is it just me or all this nerfs to exp gain coincide with their intention to release a exp potion??

It seems to be the case. Most other MMOs have spots/mobs that you can grind for massive results, almost an exploit. The reason why these MMOs keep these in the game, is because some people like to play the game like this, but most others don't. So it gives their players a choice, how they want to play the game. The only real reason to remove this choice is because it will generate money from their cash shop. Expect to see more of these kinds of decisions in the future.

Valymer wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Innovation is one thing, but fixing things that aren't broken (especially when combined with the inability to fix things that are broken) is and never will be a solid design strategy.

I agree. Some people auto-reject anything that WoW does on principle alone, which is absurd. "WoW car has round wheels, so darn it ESO car is going to have square wheels."

I really don't get why people keep holding up WoW as a paragon for MMO game design. I played WoW for 10 years before ESO launched. I haven't played it in over a year because ESO launched. WoW is a fraud run by con artists. It's been reduced to a Facebook app that charges money for recycled and alfhassed content the developers try to pass off as new when in reality they've been bilking their cash cow flushing literally tens of millions of dollars in time and resources into vaporware then admitting it was a failure then releasing a trailer for a TF2 ripoff and claiming its revolutionary.

I see people like the OP screaming and bellowing about xp and why don't they have 1200 out of the 3600 CP cap yet since 1.6 launched. You're not SUPPOSED to. The system is in place to work on over time, not so you can speedhack your way into being a god monster. One thing I do remember in WoW is when ICC first launched people used to grind only the trash in the first pulls up to Marrowgar to get rep for Ashen Verdict so they could work towards their epic signet rings. Well guess what Blizzard did. Did they let that fly? Did they increase the xp given? Nope. They nerfed the rep hardcore, because ICC was MEANT to be cleared. You were MEANT to kill the bosses. If anything they should increase xp from bosses several times, and retain the re-reduction to mob xp, because you are MEANT to complete the encounters.

I see so many people bawling and squalling. I'd been trying for weeks if not MONTHS to get a Shada's Tear run. The closest I'd gotten was 8% after like 20 tries before that group called it quits. I finally got a friend of mine to help me, and we blazed through it in less than an hour and from start to finish with all 3 quests, the one for each wing and the main one, it knocked out well over half a xp bar. Same thing with Trials of Rahni-za. A big chunk of xp fairly fast. Same thing with Seeker's Archive. The content is there to be done, you are meant to do it, so do it and stop whining about why you don't have your 120pt star yet.

This isn't players complaining about a broken system it's broken players complaining about a good system because they're die-hard adherents of the instant gratification system.

The thing about WoW is it isn't doing as well as people claim it is. I've had friends who've been playing in the meantime while I've been in ESO telling me how boring its gotten, because they've stripped the content down to the bare bones and fooled a large portion of their remaining playerbase into thinking the hogwash they're being fed is new and exciting. WoW is teetering on its last legs. It's not just a dead horse it's a dead horse Blizz keeps inflating with a bike pump.

ESO in contrast has gorgeous visuals, engaging dialogue, and honest to god tough as balls encounters that force me to adapt and think on the fly. I've been challenging myself to solo-clear Crag delves lately. I can't do all of them, but I can do some, and I try to work out strategies to do more beyond that. This game forces me to think and that's good. That's alot better than logging in to a facebook that costs $15 a month to check on your garrison or do LFR with a bunch of dumbnads who don't know basic raid strategy like don't stand in the fire or DPS burn at 30%.

I have played LotRo and the only reason I don't anymore is because ESO is that much more engaging. I feel bad because I do feel LotRO is a good game, but for me there isn't enough hours in a day to devote to all the games I'd like to play, and the time I do have I want to spend playing ESO.

This game is not WoW. It should not be WoW. WoW is not a game any other new MMO's or new IP's should aspire to be, unless they want to be a dull rehash of rehashes coated in crap and wrapped in gold leaf.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

Sniperino....This game is not WoW. It should not be WoW. WoW is not a game any other new MMO's or new IP's should aspire to be, unless they want to be a dull rehash of rehashes coated in crap and wrapped in gold leaf.

Heh. After that long winded wall of text (it seems you're the one who's doing the "screaming and bellowing" friend), you completely misunderstood what people were saying regarding this. Hint: no-one is saying ESO should be WoW, just that we should avoid putting square wheels on our car because other cars have round wheels.

Brandalf wrote: »

I have no problem with a developer taking something and making it their own or improving upon it. That's exactly what I'm expressing my support for.

Thats the same point we are trying to make. No one is saying ESO should do something exactly like WoW, but they should most definitely use it as an inspiration. The group/raidfinder of WoW for instance is awesome. Its in fact the number one reason so many players stich with WoW rater then playing another mmo. So are the difficultysettings and the attention to "noncombat"-content.

The specific mechanic suggested that triggered this series of posts was time outs. This is a system that's hated by just as many if not more people than those that support it. Yet since WoW did it it somehow becomes a "tried and true" mechanic.

Thats indeed a mechanic I dont like either, yet I understand the reason behind it. In WoW the best gear you can get is inside the Raids. Without Raidlocks many players would consume the whole thing in a week or two by playing the Raid over and over and over, leaving them without anything to do, months before new content comes. Blizzard simply cant put out a new Raidtier every month.

There are much, much better solutions to the issue at hand than how WoW handles it. Look at Wildstar to see how well it works out when developers try too hard to be like WoW.

Ehm, Wildstar is as much away from WoW than anything can be. I can´t think of a single thing similar to WoW (other than RaidLocks).

Rhazmuz wrote: »

Do as other games:

Introduce lockout timers. When the first boss is killed, lock people to that specific instance for x amount of time. Then redistribute xp so that most of it comes from bosses, like 80 % of the total intended xp for doing that trial.

Then introduce token/trial xp system with vendors where you can buy trial gear with said currency. Bosses should drop/award this currency. This is to make up for the less available gear due to lockout.

Genomic wrote: »

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

Sniperino....This game is not WoW. It should not be WoW. WoW is not a game any other new MMO's or new IP's should aspire to be, unless they want to be a dull rehash of rehashes coated in crap and wrapped in gold leaf.

Heh. After that long winded wall of text (it seems you're the one who's doing the "screaming and bellowing" friend), you completely misunderstood what people were saying regarding this. Hint: no-one is saying ESO should be WoW, just that we should avoid putting square wheels on our car because other cars have round wheels.

I've played WoW long enough to know where the first guy was coming from and long enough to know that is a bad road to go down. The more you expect the developers to cater to your own needs, the gimmie gimmie attitude, the more you shoot yourself in the foot in the long run and before you know it you're hating the game because the content has lost its challenge. There's nothing to do past x point. Everything is boring.Compare TImeless Isle to Craglorn if you will. I'll take Crag anyday because alot of the quests and events require thinking and co-operation. Timeless was just who could zerg the fastest and facemash themselves against a rare elite mob. Or the "bosses' which was just dps the heck out of them then run back if you died, instead of following specific tactics.

The people doing the complaining ARE expecting ESO to be WoW, because they've been brainwashed into instant gratification and having content spoonfed to them on a daily basis. That is a horrible crowd to cater to, and players that demand that sort of special treatment will never be satisfied.

Brandalf wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

Sniperino....This game is not WoW. It should not be WoW. WoW is not a game any other new MMO's or new IP's should aspire to be, unless they want to be a dull rehash of rehashes coated in crap and wrapped in gold leaf.

Heh. After that long winded wall of text (it seems you're the one who's doing the "screaming and bellowing" friend), you completely misunderstood what people were saying regarding this. Hint: no-one is saying ESO should be WoW, just that we should avoid putting square wheels on our car because other cars have round wheels.

It's more like the tires on the "WoW car" are cracked, slightly deflated and bald. Yet some people want ZOS to take the same cracked, slightly deflated, bald tires and put them on the "ESO car". Instead we're advocating ZOS goes and finds a new set of tires that are as good if not better now than the tires on the "WoW car" were at the time.

No, you're advocating against ESO using round tyres because WoW also has them. It's perverse. You're advocating using a broken system out of sheer mindless fear of somehow being similar in some small way to the most successful MMO of all time (which, as was pointed out is absurd because ESO is not a stand alone MMO, but borrowed and outright mimicked aspects of several other MMOs, WoW included).

...and here's where you again miss the point and feel the need to go off onto a tangent of how WoW isn't actually successful, as measured by your own 'special' criteria and not the primary and meaningful ones of subs and profits.

Genomic wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

Sniperino....This game is not WoW. It should not be WoW. WoW is not a game any other new MMO's or new IP's should aspire to be, unless they want to be a dull rehash of rehashes coated in crap and wrapped in gold leaf.

Heh. After that long winded wall of text (it seems you're the one who's doing the "screaming and bellowing" friend), you completely misunderstood what people were saying regarding this. Hint: no-one is saying ESO should be WoW, just that we should avoid putting square wheels on our car because other cars have round wheels.

It's more like the tires on the "WoW car" are cracked, slightly deflated and bald. Yet some people want ZOS to take the same cracked, slightly deflated, bald tires and put them on the "ESO car". Instead we're advocating ZOS goes and finds a new set of tires that are as good if not better now than the tires on the "WoW car" were at the time.

No, you're advocating against ESO using round tyres because WoW also has them. It's perverse. You're advocating using a broken system out of sheer mindless fear of somehow being similar in some small way to the most successful MMO of all time (which, as was pointed out is absurd because ESO is not a stand alone MMO, but borrowed and outright mimicked aspects of several other MMOs, WoW included).

...and here's where you again miss the point and feel the need to go off onto a tangent of how WoW isn't actually successful, as measured by your own 'special' criteria and not the primary and meaningful ones of subs and profits.

I'm opposed to a time out system because it's a terrible and artificial way to extend content longevity. It has nothing to do with it being in WoW or not. It's a bad mechanic and doesn't belong in this game, period. I think you're completely missing the points I'm making. I never once said WoW isn't successful, that's probably one of the most absurd things someone could say, almost as absurd as trying to assert that it's mechanics aren't terribly outdated.

Sure there are some mechanics that ZOS could take inspiration from, but WoW and ESO are very different games with very different goals. So what works for WoW isn't necessarily going to work for ESO. You should try to understand that.

Grao wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Is it just me or all this nerfs to exp gain coincide with their intention to release a exp potion??

It seems to be the case. Most other MMOs have spots/mobs that you can grind for massive results, almost an exploit. The reason why these MMOs keep these in the game, is because some people like to play the game like this, but most others don't. So it gives their players a choice, how they want to play the game. The only real reason to remove this choice is because it will generate money from their cash shop. Expect to see more of these kinds of decisions in the future.

The other reason is they don't want people grinding CP all day at a rate that forces others to grind if they want to stay on pace with the grinders. Also keep in mind most of the popular grind spots were full blown exploits(Kardala, Shadow, Scorpin, Rkund). XP gains across the board need to be as close to true parity as possible regardless of preferred playstyle due to the champion system.

*This reasoning does not require a tinfoil hat*

If their leveling system is so flawed not to allow people to reach max level without becoming gods, the problem is with their system, not with experience gain or with players that prefer leveling through grinding.

In addition, by nerfing exp gain so hard Zenimax is making nearly impossible to level up skills at late game. Considering the amount of changes to morphs we had with 1.6 that policy is just stupid.

The champion system has it's flaws but let's be real for a second. If all XP gains across all playstyles are given a sort of parity that's better for the game as a whole. Take the champion system out and look at the XP gains. Why should grinding mobs be so much more efficient than doing PVP or questing? If you ask me that never should have been the case. XP gain should not play favorites with people's preferred playstyles.