Yet another request for class change

Backrub · March 2015

Hi,

First off: I know people disagree and I know there are other topics like this. But like any other request, the more people ask, the higher the priority. So here’s yet again someone asking for something while trying to explain why.

So I’d like to add another request for an option on the (crown) store to allow class change and perhaps other character changes. I understand many people disagree, so no use for spamming more of that here. I know it can be seen as lore breaking, but please don’t force your opinion on others. I’m here to explain why I would like this option. At least try to understand my version and the likeliness of more people like me. In the end, if you don’t like a class/race/appearance/… change, just don’t use it. No need to get angry about it and downgrade our opinion.

I have played this game in beta between January and April 2014. I then bought the retail Collector’s Edition because I’ve been a fan of TES games for over a decade and found the extras interesting. I’ve immediately set up a subscription for 6 months. I’ve created an Imperial DK in the DC faction.

By far one of the biggest disappointments I had was the fact that they introduced the 4 classes. I dislike the fact that in many MMO’s they expect you to make such an important decision right from the start. Let us play the game and base our character on how we play. Sure, you can restrict further character skills based on some choices in the beginning, but just like resetting skills, you would at least be able to reset it in order to go down a different path.

Anyway, what I will say now will sound ridiculous, but I’m being honest:
I chose my DK class purely based on wanting a knight kind of plate armor character and the armor on the Dragonknight looked much better than the Templar. Only afterwards did I learn that’s based on armor upgrades and not class-based. So I interpreted it wrong, I know. I can see you all thinking “do some research first”, but back then there was very little information about this and while I do some basic research, I don’t think I should invest too much time researching info while I should just be able to play and decide based on my in-game preferences.

So I kept playing this DK and got to VR1, but as I don’t always have enough time to play (children, work, …) I chose to cancel my sub. Now that the game no longer requires a sub, I immediately came back because I still like the game very much. Yet now I wish, more than ever, that I could reset that class choice. I would GLADLY pay 20-30 euros for an option to change this on my current character!

Why not reroll?
Seriously, stop suggesting everyone should just create an alt and do it all over again just for some “small” change like this. I have spent 6 months to get my one character to VR1, so I really do prefer paying instead of doing everything from scratch. I like my character, the race, the faction, the progress I’ve made on it. Why should I redo it all and have everything I did get split between 2 different characters? I spent so much time on this character and I would like to continue on it. This would not break the lore for me in the slightest. I also doubt it would break the lore for anyone around me because I’ve got no one on my friends list (none of my friends play this game and I like to play it solo). When I’m in cities I always see new people, so no one would even notice I’ve made the change.

Try to imagine yourself in my place. You cannot play as much as most others; you have spent so many months to get your first character this far (still not even close to max level); searched for so many skyshards; paid for so many extras like racial motifs and horse upgrades; spent weeks upgrading your horse daily; so much time upgrading skills; explored so many locations; … All of it would just go to waste, just because I would like to try skills that for some reason were locked out for my character.

Like I said, I would gladly pay for this option. No need to pay with in-game gold, I would pay with real money. If it costs real money, everyone knows only people who are serious about the change would use it. There would not be spam-changing. For ex. World of Warcraft has offered this for a long time now and I don’t see how it would interfere with anything in any way. If you don’t want to break the lore for your character, stay away from it, but at least allow the option for people like me.

Let me keep all of the invested time and effort. I don’t feel any kind of issue concerning the lore if I change from light armor to heavy armor, from two-handed weapon to dual-wield. Just like it’s nice to be able to change the way you play with this or that weapon and armor type, it would be nice to go from stealth to magic or vice versa. This is something that made the TES games great. You were able to make any combination you wanted. I can understand this would be too dangerous for balancing reasons, but allowing us to change between the available preset classes does not affect balancing.

Like changing armor and weapon skills, you would of course need to learn the class skills from scratch (logical), but I would be more than happy to spend my time lvling up those new skills instead of EVERYTHING (exploration, quests, crafting skills, …).

I hope anyone disagreeing for some reason can at least understand this. And as I’ve read from other topics, those disagreeing do have a valid point when they say: “allowing people to pay for such a change would mean extra money for Zenimax, which means more resources to improve the game for everyone”. I have looked through the crown store and for now I see no reason why I would pay real money for it (not into pets, don’t need other mount skins, current costumes are a bit dull in my opinion, …). Yet I’m willing to pay real money and they won’t let me.

Merlin13KAGL · March 2015

Backrub wrote: »

First off: I know people disagree and I know there are other topics like this. But like any other request, the more people ask, the higher the priority.

I disagree. We've been asking people to use the search function and not post duplicate threads for a long, long time.

I'm uncertain why you think the response to your thread would be any different than the responses have been to the dozens like it.

If you wish a class change, reroll and relevel. Paying with real $ makes it even more P2W than it would be otherwise.

Backrub · March 2015

And I disagree. More threads about the same topic (unless it's from the same person) means there is more demand. Typical phenomenon, not only for online forums.

And again the same thing "reroll and relevel", as if it's just a piece of cake. Did you even read my explanation? Oh well, let's relevel so I get another VR1 char by the weekend. Oh wait, this will take me another 6 MONTHS!

I don't generalize and won't call everyone who disagrees "selfish" as I have seen in other topics, but I do call people selfish when they say "reroll" because they may have the luxury of more time to invest. If this game is meant for hardcore players, they'll eventually lose a lot of players, which in turn will have a negative effect on you directly.

You calling it P2W is probably, with all due respect, the worst possible excuse I have read from someone disagreeing with the class/race change option. How on earth is this P2W in any way? Really, how?? What advantage would this have over other players? Are you confusing this with COMBINING classes? Exchanging once class with another is not P2W.

Perhaps you should read up on the P2W concept then. Have you ever read anyone anywhere complain about this option being available for WoW? Didn't think so, because it is NOT P2W! If you call this P2W you might as well call costumes on the crown store P2W because people can pay real $ to look better, especially at low lvl.

Anyway, I appreciate you took the time to read and react, but I'm just disappointed you try to push this in the completely wrong direction. There is no relevance to the P2W concept here. And as I said I did read other topics, but I added another topic on purpose as a way to attract more attention. Guess you missed that part, np.

newtinmpls · March 2015

Backrub wrote: »

Hi,

First off: I know people disagree and I know there are other topics like this. But like any other request, the more people ask, the higher the priority. So here’s yet again someone asking for something while trying to explain why.

Every time you post a reply, that thread automatically jumps to the top of "recent" (lovely function, BTW ZOS!) so there is no need to presume that another thread means "more" - another post on existant thread functions slightly better (because it minimizes the search for future commentors).

Backrub wrote: »

Just like it’s nice to be able to change the way you play with this or that weapon and armor type, it would be nice to go from stealth to magic or vice versa. This is something that made the TES games great. You were able to make any combination you wanted. I can understand this would be too dangerous for balancing reasons, but allowing us to change between the available preset classes does not affect balancing.

I would like to see classes discarded in ESO and all skill lines opened to all characters. That would be more reflective of ES game style as a whole, and it would solve any problems about rerolling classes. I've heard arguments about balance - but there would still be choices and a limit of five slots per bar. Problems could be addressed in updates, and to tell the truth, there will be needs for the various roles of "tank", "healer" and "DPS" - this would open up more creativity and enhance both game play and role play.

I do think that some skill lines might logically require a quest of some sort to open (i.e. mage related skills started in the Mages Guide and so on). Again, enriching the game and the experience.

Panda244 · March 2015

Personally it will never effect me, so I'm inclined to agree, for people like yourself @Backrub there really is no reason to not have it in the crown store, eventually. Same with race changes and what not. I say eventually, not tomorrow.

I took about 3 months to get my Nightblade to v10, then grinded for a few days when v12 came out, then another few days to v14.

It took me nearly 7 months to get my Dragonknight to v14, because I hardly played him, I did 1-50 in non veteran PvP, and then I grinded the rest of the veteran ranks out before they crushed the grind spots.

The amount of time it takes to get from Point A to Point B in this game is absurd, mainly because they nerf every grind spot they get their hands on, that's really the only reason I would agree to a class change. Race changes should already have been added because nearly every race except Imperial/Altmer/Breton, isn't worth a damn. Argonians got shafted with a punji stick.

RainfeatherUK · March 2015

Oh look, another of these threads.

Its honestly laughable these days how people just want a get out jail free for every single decision they make. I cant imagine what the real world would be like if everyone expected the next person to make special adjustments for their un-informed or lousy decision making. Oh wait. It already is.

People such as yourself create the sterile homogenised games that fail. Of that I have no doubt. They'll probably pander to your whims to make money but in any event, the concept of everyone just switching class every time the balance is out of whack is very real. Its quite sad really, that people have such little investment in their choices that they just flip willynilly to be the fotm. Especially in a ES game.

I suppose at this point I dont have to make it any more obvious I dont agree. Your decisions are your own fault, stop being selfish and expecting ammendments to be made that effect the entire game and its community because of your own lack of foresight.

Merlin13KAGL · March 2015

Backrub wrote: »

And I disagree. More threads about the same topic (unless it's from the same person) means there is more demand. Typical phenomenon, not only for online forums.

And again the same thing "reroll and relevel", as if it's just a piece of cake. Did you even read my explanation? Oh well, let's relevel so I get another VR1 char by the weekend. Oh wait, this will take me another 6 MONTHS!

I don't generalize and won't call everyone who disagrees "selfish" as I have seen in other topics, but I do call people selfish when they say "reroll" because they may have the luxury of more time to invest. If this game is meant for hardcore players, they'll eventually lose a lot of players, which in turn will have a negative effect on you directly.

You calling it P2W is probably, with all due respect, the worst possible excuse I have read from someone disagreeing with the class/race change option. How on earth is this P2W in any way? Really, how?? What advantage would this have over other players? Are you confusing this with COMBINING classes? Exchanging once class with another is not P2W.

Perhaps you should read up on the P2W concept then. Have you ever read anyone anywhere complain about this option being available for WoW? Didn't think so, because it is NOT P2W! If you call this P2W you might as well call costumes on the crown store P2W because people can pay real $ to look better, especially at low lvl.

Anyway, I appreciate you took the time to read and react, but I'm just disappointed you try to push this in the completely wrong direction. There is no relevance to the P2W concept here. And as I said I did read other topics, but I added another topic on purpose as a way to attract more attention. Guess you missed that part, np.

First, you have 8 character slots to choose from 4 classes, so it's not as if you have not been afforded the opportunity, two times over (minimum).
Second, when you are offering up IRL $ for a major, not-just-convenience change, that is the definition of P2W.
Third, it does require a time investment. Your way it only requires cash. You don't have the time, some don't have the money.
Fourth, it diminishes the investment other people have made in their characters, however much or little that may be.
- Example: They make class changes, another class becomes more viable in certain aspects.
- Under your method, you simply fork out enough $'s and you're now ahead of everyone else not in that class.
- Again, definition of pay to win.
If it's truly not to gain advantage, the time it takes you to level is of no consequence - there is no prize you're racing towards, trying to get ahead of someone else. At that point, your choices have both meaning and consequence. Is it worth more to you to keep your time or is it worth more for you to change and start again?

For the record, the most casual of casuals can hit VR1 in well under 6 months, playing even a few hours a week. It's not about being hardcore or casual. It's about not creating an imbalance by offering something using a currency all people do not have equal access to.

And since you want to use WoW as your justification...they also offer an instant full level character for $, but I suppose you don't consider that pay to win either.

Costumes don't affect gameplay. The color of your horse doesn't affect gameplay. Having a completely and totally different skills line in an instant, absolutely affects gameplay.

If they lost some players because they can't buy their desired outcome, so be it. I suspect they would lose a whole lot more if their time investment is suddenly worth less than the amount of money someone is willing to spend.

You've added nothing new here. You offer no provocative reasoning behind your want. If you are willing to spend the money, you should be willing to take the time. If you already have a Vet character, you already have CP's. If you already have CP's, you lose none of them. The max level is VR14, so it's not as if it's a threshold you can never attain.

If you want to further discuss how it does affect other players, when you do go to do content with another individual in your newly-purchased class, they will expect you to have some indication how to play it, something no amount of money is going to provide you - only time. By allowing this, you are potentially doing them a disservice.

You wish for a method to change classes.

I have provided you one. It costs no money, not even in game gold. Use one of your deletes, start your new character, and earn it the same way everyone else here has.

Rune_Relic · March 2015

You spamming a request for is no different to us spamming your post with a request against.
1. If they let people change class/race at will...people will be rerolling to the FOTM build every 5 mins.
2. Each race/class comes with stats/passive/actives that are unique. Its like me saying I dont like dual wield so can I refund it and get level 50 in two handed instead without levelling.

Having said that, I too never agreed with classes anyway. But while we have them...this is the way it has to be.

bosmern_ESO · March 2015

I have a V14 Templar, DragonKnight, and Nightblade. I don't even play as much as others do.

If I could get 3 V14s you could reroll and get one aswell.

If they allowed class change then everyone would follow the flavor of the month build and it would render everyone who spent their time to get more than one V14 useless just because someone feels they have a bad class and want to roll a DK.

Backrub · March 2015

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

Oh look, another of these threads.

Its honestly laughable these days how people just want a get out jail free for every single decision they make. I cant imagine what the real world would be like if everyone expected the next person to make special adjustments for their un-informed or lousy decision making. Oh wait. It already is.

People such as yourself create the sterile homogenised games that fail. Of that I have no doubt. They'll probably pander to your whims to make money but in any event, the concept of everyone just switching class every time the balance is out of whack is very real. Its quite sad really, that people have such little investment in their choices that they just flip willynilly to be the fotm. Especially in a ES game.

I suppose at this point I dont have to make it any more obvious I dont agree. Your decisions are your own fault, stop being selfish and expecting ammendments to be made that effect the entire game and its community because of your own lack of foresight.

I would usually just ignore your arrogant, offensive and pointless slamming, but hey, I like to clarify and discuss.

No idea how this is selfish. Do explain. Did I ask for a FREE race change? They'll make money out of it, so it's a win-win situation. Quite typical in general commerce, if you haven't heard. If you're all complaining about the many duplicate threads, you're forgetting you're actually confirming this is a highly requested option, then. Apparently I'm not so selfish if there truly are so many others asking for the same.

And my "lack of foresight", me being "selfish", me "expecting amendments", "affecting the entire game", ... Dude, I think you need to chill a bit.

So to summarise your opinion:
- You think I want a get out of jail free for EVERY decision I make.
Asking for a race change suddenly becomes EVERY decision I have made. Great judging.

- Un-informed or lousy decision making.
May I remind you this is a game ... En-ter-tain-ment. I apologise for not taking this as seriously as you apparently do.

- I create the sterile homogenised games?
Wow, a free get-to-know-your-true-self-online-in-a-matter-of-seconds. Thank you for that enlightenment.

- Only people that like to spend a lot of money will constantly change class when the balance is off. If Z makes the fee for a change at the appropriate level, people won't be spam-changing like you think they will.

- My decisions are my own fault?
Do you have a life next to this game?

- I couldn't be more confused as to how I'm selfish ASKING (not demanding or "expecting") for a PAID (not free) service.

- This affects the "entire game and it's community"? You must really be drunk or high right now. Doomsday coming soon?

- The lack of foresight thingy can be merged with the free get-to-know-y...

newtinmpls wrote: »

I would like to see classes discarded in ESO and all skill lines opened to all characters. That would be more reflective of ES game style as a whole, and it would solve any problems about rerolling classes. I've heard arguments about balance - but there would still be choices and a limit of five slots per bar. Problems could be addressed in updates, and to tell the truth, there will be needs for the various roles of "tank", "healer" and "DPS" - this would open up more creativity and enhance both game play and role play.

I do think that some skill lines might logically require a quest of some sort to open (i.e. mage related skills started in the Mages Guide and so on). Again, enriching the game and the experience.

That would be the ideal solution, for sure!

Unfortunately, I personally don't see that happening anytime soon. Either it'll be too much effort, or won't offer enough Return On Investment in the long run. Therefore I suppose the class change is more likely to happen. Easier to implement and gets more $.

Backrub · March 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You spamming a request for is no different to us spamming your post with a request against.
1. If they let people change class/race at will...people will be rerolling to the FOTM build every 5 mins.
2. Each race/class comes with stats/passive/actives that are unique. Its like me saying I dont like dual wield so can I refund it and get level 50 in two handed instead without levelling.

Having said that, I too never agreed with classes anyway. But while we have them...this is the way it has to be.

I have nothing against people disagreeing. But there should not be any irrelevant "contra's" such as it being P2W. It is by no means, at all, P2W.

Backrub · March 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Backrub wrote: »

And I disagree. More threads about the same topic (unless it's from the same person) means there is more demand. Typical phenomenon, not only for online forums.

And again the same thing "reroll and relevel", as if it's just a piece of cake. Did you even read my explanation? Oh well, let's relevel so I get another VR1 char by the weekend. Oh wait, this will take me another 6 MONTHS!

I don't generalize and won't call everyone who disagrees "selfish" as I have seen in other topics, but I do call people selfish when they say "reroll" because they may have the luxury of more time to invest. If this game is meant for hardcore players, they'll eventually lose a lot of players, which in turn will have a negative effect on you directly.

You calling it P2W is probably, with all due respect, the worst possible excuse I have read from someone disagreeing with the class/race change option. How on earth is this P2W in any way? Really, how?? What advantage would this have over other players? Are you confusing this with COMBINING classes? Exchanging once class with another is not P2W.

Perhaps you should read up on the P2W concept then. Have you ever read anyone anywhere complain about this option being available for WoW? Didn't think so, because it is NOT P2W! If you call this P2W you might as well call costumes on the crown store P2W because people can pay real $ to look better, especially at low lvl.

Anyway, I appreciate you took the time to read and react, but I'm just disappointed you try to push this in the completely wrong direction. There is no relevance to the P2W concept here. And as I said I did read other topics, but I added another topic on purpose as a way to attract more attention. Guess you missed that part, np.

First, you have 8 character slots to choose from 4 classes, so it's not as if you have not been afforded the opportunity, two times over (minimum).

Second, when you are offering up IRL $ for a major, not-just-convenience change, that is the definition of P2W.

Third, it does require a time investment. Your way it only requires cash. You don't have the time, some don't have the money.

Fourth, it diminishes the investment other people have made in their characters, however much or little that may be.
Example: They make class changes, another class becomes more viable in certain aspects.

Under your method, you simply fork out enough $'s and you're now ahead of everyone else not in that class.

Again, definition of pay to win.

If it's truly not to gain advantage, the time it takes you to level is of no consequence - there is no prize you're racing towards, trying to get ahead of someone else. At that point, your choices have both meaning and consequence. Is it worth more to you to keep your time or is it worth more for you to change and start again?

For the record, the most casual of casuals can hit VR1 in well under 6 months, playing even a few hours a week. It's not about being hardcore or casual. It's about not creating an imbalance by offering something using a currency all people do not have equal access to.

And since you want to use WoW as your justification...they also offer an instant full level character for $, but I suppose you don't consider that pay to win either.

Costumes don't affect gameplay. The color of your horse doesn't affect gameplay. Having a completely and totally different skills line in an instant, absolutely affects gameplay.

If they lost some players because they can't buy their desired outcome, so be it. I suspect they would lose a whole lot more if their time investment is suddenly worth less than the amount of money someone is willing to spend.

You've added nothing new here. You offer no provocative reasoning behind your want. If you are willing to spend the money, you should be willing to take the time. If you already have a Vet character, you already have CP's. If you already have CP's, you lose none of them. The max level is VR14, so it's not as if it's a threshold you can never attain.

If you want to further discuss how it does affect other players, when you do go to do content with another individual in your newly-purchased class, they will expect you to have some indication how to play it, something no amount of money is going to provide you - only time. By allowing this, you are potentially doing them a disservice.

You wish for a method to change classes.

I have provided you one. It costs no money, not even in game gold. Use one of your deletes, start your new character, and earn it the same way everyone else here has.

You obviously have some skewed opinion on some things. I have to go now, but if I have some free time I'll try to get back to this.

TheShadowScout · March 2015

Pffftttt... one of these threads again.

My view of it is also still the same - I don't see any reason for me to change any of my classes, and likely won't until they introduce a new class I want, if that ever happens.

But I wouldn't begrudge people who do want this the option, if it costs enough crowns. That way the ones who don't have the time to simply reroll/make an alt can take all their time already spent on that character, and reapply it in a different way, class wise... and the rest of us get additional content sooner since the developers have more in their warchest through the extra crowns spent. Win-win.

As for the specter of min/maxers changing classes to follow every FotM... if it costs 20$ worth of crowns, most will think very hard about making any such changes. Of course, it could also be limited in other ways... "once per character" comes to mind, so it remains a one-time option for desperate people...

pugyourself · March 2015

I would agree with a class change for a million in-game gold. Then at least they'd need to work their balls off in-game to make it happen. But paying money out of game for something like this goes against the spirit of a competitive MMO unless it is P2W.

Valymer · March 2015

I leveled a new character up recently to VR1 in about 30 total hours from straight grinding. It's mind-numbingly boring, but not such a severe time investment.

Still, I personally wouldn't care if class/race changes were offered for sale at some point. Can't see how it really affects me.

AngryNord · March 2015

Valymer wrote: »

I leveled a new character up recently to VR1 in about 30 total hours from straight grinding. It's mind-numbingly boring, but not such a severe time investment.

Still, I personally wouldn't care if class/race changes were offered for sale at some point. Can't see how it really affects me.

It will affect you when you start to see Messages in chat like "Tank wanted for Xxxxxxxx - Imperial DK only!" or "Healer wanted for Xxxxxxxxx - Breton Templar only!"

Valymer · March 2015

AngryNord wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

I leveled a new character up recently to VR1 in about 30 total hours from straight grinding. It's mind-numbingly boring, but not such a severe time investment.

Still, I personally wouldn't care if class/race changes were offered for sale at some point. Can't see how it really affects me.

It will affect you when you start to see Messages in chat like "Tank wanted for Xxxxxxxx - Imperial DK only!" or "Healer wanted for Xxxxxxxxx - Breton Templar only!"

Any group that hinges on racial bonuses for success is not one that I wish to be a part of.

Backrub · March 2015

Ok so my impression of the majority of people disagreeing is that they can fit in one of these categories:

- THEY don't need this option, so no one else should get it.
- THEY can't afford to pay real $ for such a change, so no one else should get it.
- They exaggerate the whole idea by thinking people will seriously change their class every few days (ok, maybe 1 out of 100.000 may, so what? By the time they relearn and relevel the new skill lines, they would really change it again? Their problem, though I don't see that happening).
- They never heard of the concept "paid change class service", so they doubt this is something that could actually work.

So to those in the first 2 categories I say: you're selfish for not thinking other people should be allowed to choose because you don't feel the need to choose.

For those in the third category: There are many ways to avoid this being abused. A big delay (once every so often), resetting all class-specific skill lines, character unavailable for a day (preventing quick changing), etc. Asking the right price will also prevent most people from changing this often. If it costs, for example, $25 like other MMO's (if I'm not mistaken), then that means you can get a whole lot of other stuff for that money (other games, food, clothes, ...). So in reality, no one will actually waste so much money just to change their class over and over again. There are only 4 classes, so it's not like there is so much to change to. And the whole argument of changing when there is an imbalance is so lame. Even if this would actually happen, imbalances would get Z a ****load of $ which means they would have more resources to get it all balanced again sooner.

Those in the fourth cat: this is a known service and it does NOT break the game like you think it would. People don't all just change their character based on a temporary request for specific classes or imbalances. It does not break lore, you can ignore the service if you don't need it. Why make such a big deal out of something that would not affect you?

Stop saying dumb stuff like "Tank wanted for Xxxxxxxx - Imperial DK only!" or "Healer wanted for Xxxxxxxxx - Breton Templar only!" Do you seriously think you would see someone asking for a tank and immediately go pay $25 to change class, wait maybe a day for this change to happen and then check if that person is still online to ask if they still need that class? "No thx, we already found someone and it was yesterday." ... bummer, you changed class for nothing. And even if they would still need that class the next day, you still wouldn't be able to join them because you'd need to relearn and relevel the entire new skill line(s) again first. So in average, changing a class might easily take a week before you're up and running again (ye ye, I know some of you have nothing else to do so it could take you only a few hours or a day. But that means you still need about 2 days).

Take some time to think about it please, before you blatantly and blindly slam it.

Brick_XI · March 2015

You guys do understand this is a GAME right? like football or chess games have rules and you have to play by those rules. When they took the soft caps away the changed the rules of this GAME by a large margin. For instance the increase magic by 10% racial passive with 30k base magic is a big difference in dps now. The soft caps we had before made it so races didn't matter as much. You could enjoy the look or lore of your character and still be able to compare to other races easily. Since the rules have changed my toon is far from close to other better races in dps, tanking or healing now.

I took the time to test different builds and knew how soft caps worked before choosing my race. I liked the look of the khajiit and knew that with skill I could over come the race passives with the soft caps in place. Its really unfair that I have over 100 days played on this toon and over 13000 achievement points, I have finished the SO speed and hard mode achievements with him. I was looking forward to more content to play with him but with the soft caps taken away and a Champion Point system that will allow us to advance our toons based off %s for the next 5 years minimum. He will only get weaker compared to other races with better passives.

I just want a fair chance to chose my race with the current rules.

TheShadowScout · March 2015

Valymer wrote: »

AngryNord wrote: »

It will affect you when you start to see Messages in chat like "Tank wanted for Xxxxxxxx - Imperial DK only!" or "Healer wanted for Xxxxxxxxx - Breton Templar only!"

Any group that hinges on racial bonuses for success is not one that I wish to be a part of.

^^^This.

Anyone who states right away they are this level of jerk is not someone I'd want to group with for anything. I'd rather spend my time counting guar in shadowfen then associate with that kind of player...

Backrub · March 2015

TheShadowScout wrote: »

^^^This.

Anyone who states right away they are this level of jerk is not someone I'd want to group with for anything. I'd rather spend my time counting guar in shadowfen then associate with that kind of player...

That, and people actually changing classes for this would be total jerks. Unless you already know the ins and outs of the class you're changing to, there's no way you can fill that role before you learn and level the new skill lines.

@Brick_Xl:
Exactly, the fact this is an MMO means the game will change over time. There is no way you can inform yourself to make the right choice today and know for a fact that this will still be your most preferred choice next year. The game evolves and so do your preferences based on this evolution. If Z is allowed to change the game, why shouldn't we be allowed to change crucial elements of our character?

To throw out another argument against this:
This does not contradict the immersion, but supports it. I prefer to play this game solo. Not once have I played a group dungeon and I still don't feel the need to. I like to quest alone, but it's nice to have real people running around to make it all feel like a dynamic world. Spontaneously helping a stranger passing by, or save (or be saved by) a stranger about to die in combat. So while I loved solo TES games, I want to play TESO for the people in it, but still play on my own. I bet there are more people out there that feel the same.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say about the immersion argument is that the game evolves. Last year I chose a knight type of character because that seemed more logical than a stealthy character. Solo TES games allowed you to run around in stealth mode, but in this game there was little reason to unless it was purely for combat. Yes now there are many ways to play stealth out of combat. You can steal things, you can murder npc's, ... this changes it completely. I love this, I love to sneak around, wait for an npc to turn his back and quickly steal something without getting caught and then run to a crafting station to break it apart so I can lvl my crafting skill and get crafting resources.

But it doesn't make sense when you're a big knight in full plate armor and a two-handed sword. Therefore I'd like to be a nightblade with 2 daggers and medium armor specialised in sneak attacks so it feels right. So the whole change would be for the immersion, not because a nightblade is overpowered compared to a dragonknight, or vice versa. Maybe a DK is currently op compared to the NB, but I don't care about that. I hardly even know how to play my own skills correctly (yup I suck), so it's really just to make my whole solo play feel more entertaining, not to deal more damage than someone else.

I have different goals in this game than many of you. I don't go looking for the best gear, the best build, the best dps. I look for a nice character that I feel good playing and running around with, explore, craft, interact in towns, ... Maybe that's why it's difficult for many to understand why a class change would be so important. Many of you think about the changing to be the best, but I think about the changing to play the game the way we're supposed to: enjoying it.

Justs like Brick_Xl put so nicely: Why should someone have to spend soooo much time doing so many things that would take so long to do again just so they can choose 1-3 different skill lines, get a different haircut, ...? There's no logic in that. This is not about just leveling to VR1 quickly, it's about ALL of the other things you've done while getting there. I would recreate the exact same character again anyway, just a different class skill line. I therefore need to get all racial motifs again? I need to explore all of the same locations again? Do all of the same quests again? Craft and craft and craft the same crafting skills again? I'd quit the game before I'd do that, and I'm only VR1, let alone the people that got it maxed out and did so many rare things.

asteldian · March 2015

Must be the first time ever that someone actually wanted to change class FROM a DK.
Afraid I draw the line at class changes. I can just about accept race changes, but class is very different. You pick a class for its style of play, no matter what changes, that style will still be there. While it is certainly an unusual case for someone to want to change class for non metagaming reasons, I still can't agree.

Djern · March 2015

While I think the OP motives are honest, I cant see this going through for a number of reasons.

1. There are power players out there that would take advantage of this. Plain and simple. The meta changes fairly regularly I couldn’t see ZoS offering people a short cut to levelling up. I think that classify as pay to win.
2. It could potentially undermine specific class levelling. e.g. Lets say the current meta is a NB at max but its faster and easier to level a DK. That would be a pay to win scenario.
3. FOTM plays could cause a serious class imbalance. To be honest this is a bit speculative of me as I'm not max level. But in when I played another MMO, you'd have a shortage of the dps/heals/tanks that were not the FOTM the change would only compound it.

There are far better people out there that can see the holes in a system than me. If I could think of a way to exploit it I'm sure other people will be rubbing there hands with glee knowing they could change their class at any time.

Backrub · March 2015

asteldian wrote: »

Must be the first time ever that someone actually wanted to change class FROM a DK.
Afraid I draw the line at class changes. I can just about accept race changes, but class is very different. You pick a class for its style of play, no matter what changes, that style will still be there. While it is certainly an unusual case for someone to want to change class for non metagaming reasons, I still can't agree.

Djern wrote: »

While I think the OP motives are honest, I cant see this going through for a number of reasons.

1. There are power players out there that would take advantage of this. Plain and simple. The meta changes fairly regularly I couldn’t see ZoS offering people a short cut to levelling up. I think that classify as pay to win.
2. It could potentially undermine specific class levelling. e.g. Lets say the current meta is a NB at max but its faster and easier to level a DK. That would be a pay to win scenario.
3. FOTM plays could cause a serious class imbalance. To be honest this is a bit speculative of me as I'm not max level. But in when I played another MMO, you'd have a shortage of the dps/heals/tanks that were not the FOTM the change would only compound it.

There are far better people out there that can see the holes in a system than me. If I could think of a way to exploit it I'm sure other people will be rubbing there hands with glee knowing they could change their class at any time.

Thanks for your honest and polite(!) opinions.

I don't know about FOTM, no idea what that means, sorry.

Yet again I disagree with the exploiting of this system. As I explained, there are enough ways for Z to prevent abuse of this system. There can be no changing every 5 minutes if there is a delay. There can be no quick change to fill in roles if you need to relearn and relevel your class skills. No one will change 4 times per months ($100 per month) as they would waste their money and would be constantly occupied with levelling the skills again.

Z could do enough to prevent abuse. There could be a delay on this change service. Say you do a class change but are in fact unhappy with the decision and want to change again after 1 week, then there could be a cooldown on it for a month or 3 months, etc. And so on. They could set up the rules so they can pin out the people that are constantly changing and at some point refuse the service for them.

If you don't think a class change should be allowed, then it contradicts with the option to reset your current skill points. That breaks the lore just as much as changing class.

wrlifeboil · March 2015

My feeling is 'no' to paid race changes. But f2p/b2p games need players to spend money in order to keep up the quality of the game. If ZOS ever did allow race changes, the price should be high enough to serve as a deterrent for too frequent race changes, say 5,000-7,500 crowns.

pecheckler · March 2015

Well I'd like to buy a race change so I can stop looking like a *** trying to heal as an imperial Templar.

Brick_XI · March 2015

I would rather not have to pay for a race change. I think with how they changed the game so much with 1 patch that they had to rename the game and change the patch number to 2.0 a 1 time race change should be freely offered.

What they did is equal to playing checkers and you choosing red and the other guy using black and half way through the game the rules change saying that black gets to move twice each turn now and red can't. If you would have known that before the game started you would have chosen black.

The removal of soft caps and the champion system justifies a race change.

Liea · March 2015

To everybody arguing that a crown store class change is pay to win because it opens up the possibility of instantly switching to the FOTM (favorite of the month):

If ESO had the same class balance as for instance Rift (until it went free to play - I have not played since then) that would be a non-issue because if each class were as strong and flexible and viable ... as any other class in the game there would be no FOTM. Rift managed to implement this perfect class balance and Zenimax need only copy what has been invented long ago.

It is only the developers' failure at balancing ESO that introduces this problem.

So my opinion is:
Implement perfect class balance - Rift did it and thereby proved it can be done.
And then let players switch their class whenever they want because it will not make any difference whatsoever.

Backrub · March 2015

Liea wrote: »

To everybody arguing that a crown store class change is pay to win because it opens up the possibility of instantly switching to the FOTM (favorite of the month):

If ESO had the same class balance as for instance Rift (until it went free to play - I have not played since then) that would be a non-issue because if each class were as strong and flexible and viable ... as any other class in the game there would be no FOTM. Rift managed to implement this perfect class balance and Zenimax need only copy what has been invented long ago.

It is only the developers' failure at balancing ESO that introduces this problem.

So my opinion is:
Implement perfect class balance - Rift did it and thereby proved it can be done.
And then let players switch their class whenever they want because it will not make any difference whatsoever.

That's the best answer I've come across now, thank you for that!

Players should not be penalised if Z can't get balancing straight. Other MMO's have been doing it successfully for years, ESO is out for a year now, they can too. This is not reinventing the wheel, this is a known concept that has proved to be working in similar conditions.

Just like Liea says, if there would not be a favorite of the month, there would not be any abuse of the system.

pugyourself · March 2015

Backrub wrote: »

Liea wrote: »

To everybody arguing that a crown store class change is pay to win because it opens up the possibility of instantly switching to the FOTM (favorite of the month):

If ESO had the same class balance as for instance Rift (until it went free to play - I have not played since then) that would be a non-issue because if each class were as strong and flexible and viable ... as any other class in the game there would be no FOTM. Rift managed to implement this perfect class balance and Zenimax need only copy what has been invented long ago.

It is only the developers' failure at balancing ESO that introduces this problem.

So my opinion is:
Implement perfect class balance - Rift did it and thereby proved it can be done.
And then let players switch their class whenever they want because it will not make any difference whatsoever.

That's the best answer I've come across now, thank you for that!

Players should not be penalised if Z can't get balancing straight. Other MMO's have been doing it successfully for years, ESO is out for a year now, they can too. This is not reinventing the wheel, this is a known concept that has proved to be working in similar conditions.

Just like Liea says, if there would not be a favorite of the month, there would not be any abuse of the system.

I understand you are passionate about this. I have a V5 Sorc that I would love to change to a DK. But, I'm against having this option available for Crowns. Because that makes it P2W.

If it was available for a massive amount of in-game gold, then it would meet "hurt" enough to dissuade all but the most determined player. If you had to save 1,000,000 in-game gold, you would need to save, sell and sacrifice to get there. And you'd have to do it in-game.

Simply paying crowns for it is P2W no matter how you slice it. A crushing amount of in-game gold makes more sense.

And please stop mixing class/race change in your replies. They are two different issues. Class changes are far more serious than race changes.

Backrub · March 2015

pugyourself wrote: »

I understand you are passionate about this. I have a V5 Sorc that I would love to change to a DK. But, I'm against having this option available for Crowns. Because that makes it P2W.

If it was available for a massive amount of in-game gold, then it would meet "hurt" enough to dissuade all but the most determined player. If you had to save 1,000,000 in-game gold, you would need to save, sell and sacrifice to get there. And you'd have to do it in-game.

Simply paying crowns for it is P2W no matter how you slice it. A crushing amount of in-game gold makes more sense.

And please stop mixing class/race change in your replies. They are two different issues. Class changes are far more serious than race changes.

Classic example of another person not reading the topic thoroughly enough.

First off, you don't need to tell me I can't speak of both changes if that is exactly what I mean. Yes, I do think that a race change should be available just like the class change is. Not because I want to change race, but because if a class change would be available, it would be logical that a race change is possible too. So no, I will not stop mixing the two, I know very well what the difference is and I know very well where I type which. If you see me typing "race change" then that is exactly what I mean. Thank you for respecting my opinion.

Secondly, you quote a post that you obviously didn't even read. "No matter how you slice it"? No matter how you slice it, it is NOT P2W, at least if Z would not cause the current imbalances so many of you seem to complain about. Other MMO's can implement it without controverse, so think about why it would be a problem in ESO. It all seems to come down to imbalances. If the classes are balanced, how would it be P2W at all if you would end up getting a setback because you need to start those skill lines from scratch? You wouldn't end up stronger than anyone else, because they're all balanced.

Please, can you at least do some effort to actually READ before you comment?

By the way, what's all the hype about a DK? I don't even use/like any of my class skills (only weapon skills) except for the ulti. If all of this hype is due to the fact that DK's are currently op compared to the other classes, then I understand the frustrations, but you're just pointing in the wrong direction. People wanting to change classes after crucial game changes are the victim, the devs causing the imbalances are the guilty ones. No need to bash the victims here. Tell them to fix the imbalances and there will not be any kind of P2W element in changing to something that does not give you any advantage whatsoever.

And don't start about "oh it's still easier to pay for a change than level a new character from scratch, so it's P2W", because it does not make any sense having to sacrifice everything you have ever done in this game, just for a few different skills. The fact that our characters are at a veteran rank means we've invested a lot of time, so maybe they can limit class changes to people who have at least achieved VR. Once you are VR, you've obviously spent a great deal of effort in the game, even more so if you have not only gone for levels, but collecting, crafting and exploring as well. People that spent this much effort into one character earn the right to revise their decision on those 3 skill lines, "no matter how you slice it". (see what I did there?)

The best solution that I can imagine everyone could agree to would be (they should have done this in the first place, instead of creating classes):

Remove all classes. Open up all skill lines to every new character. Say they now have 12 skill lines to choose from. Once they invest their first skill point in any of these skill lines, only the 2 others associated with it will remain available and the other 9 will become unavailable. This way your character will more or less fall into the class system, but only after making this choice ingame, not during character creation. The whole advantage to this system would be that they can reset skill points and all 12 become available again, making 9 unavailable after assigning your first skill point. You would have this option whenever you want to reset skills, but the balancing (the whole reason why they chose classes) would remain exactly the same. And as you all know, it costs gold to reset skills, so unless you have the gold available, you can't keep changing classes. There is no option to buy extra gold with real $, so if you want to reset skills multiple times, you need to invest the necessary time to earn the gold first and level up the skill lines.

I think that would solve everything and make it equal for everyone. The only issue to remain would be the imbalancing, but as I said before, that's for Z to fix. And either way, there will always be plenty of people like me who don't care about getting the highest dps but instead go for the most appealing roleplaying, especially in a TES game.