Players Need More Control Over Justice System Choices

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

As for lag: it doesn't do what you think it does. If I interact with an NPC in front of me, and the NPC moves before the interaction happens, the dialogue window either opens late or doesn't open at all (if they moved out of range). But that interaction does not apply to some object behind the NPC that I never highlighted. That's simply not how server lag works.

The version of lag I've seen first hand are teleporting guards. It's not exactly the same issue. But, go to steal something while hidden, and then a guard will pop partially over and detect the theft as it's occurring. It's distinctly annoying, but I've only seen it happen twice.

At that point, it doesn't strike me as impossible that someone would teleport out as you're pressing the key, leading to an accidental theft. I haven't seen it first hand, but as Fleshreaper pointed out, I haven't walked on the moon either.

I don't need to see it firsthand, because it simply isn't how lag works. The server takes your input with regards to what you have highlighted at the moment you press a key. Server lag only delays that response. It can't actually make you interact with something you never consciously highlighted. It's just not possible.

Now, the situation you described (guard lagging and appearing right next to you in a position to detect a theft) is a possibility with lag. But it's a totally different situation, and it still doesn't indicate a need for some kind of opt-out feature.

asteldian · March 2015

The confirmation box before stealing should occur everytime. That resolves the misclick issue. Alternatively the game could allow a seperate keybind for interacting with people and objects (optional, similar to how you can have seperate keybinds for weapon swap). That way missing the NPC won't result in stealing.
Both simple solutions which will not inconvenience those who enjoy the system.
With regards to healing criminals, a simple policy of 'if in town and in trouble, chances are they are a dodgy sort, so leave them' sorts that out.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Titansteele wrote: »

I am not a fan of the Justice system, I can see both sides of this argument and in my own way agree with both. It boils down to a need to be careful of your actions in town as your actions can have consequences beyond your intentions which if you stand back and look at it is how you build an immersive world.

I do not agree that the system is indispensable, it is a nice to have in the eyes of some. If it was indispensable it would have been in the game before it came out of BETA. I would love to see guild & player housing announced/added and am genuinely excited by the prospect however I would never be so bold as to call that feature indispensable.

Last night I encountered a weird scenario where I was sitting idle while talking on the phone and out of nowhere I got a bounty and a guard arrested me. My hands were nowhere near a mouse or the keyboard so I didn't heal someone else, nor did I accidentally hit someone, I was not in a group at the time so there is no reason as to why I was arrested. Has anyone else ever encountered this or indeed have a possible explanation I am missing?

It wasn't in at launch because it was a pretty sophisticated system, and the team opted to not have it in right away. Many of us were waiting extremely patiently for the system to launch because it's been an integral part of the Elder Scrolls series.

But anyway, to your specific situation: are you sure you didn't have a bounty prior to sitting in that spot? There was (if I recall) an issue with bounties not displaying correctly, so that may have been what happened.

starkerealm · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

As for lag: it doesn't do what you think it does. If I interact with an NPC in front of me, and the NPC moves before the interaction happens, the dialogue window either opens late or doesn't open at all (if they moved out of range). But that interaction does not apply to some object behind the NPC that I never highlighted. That's simply not how server lag works.

The version of lag I've seen first hand are teleporting guards. It's not exactly the same issue. But, go to steal something while hidden, and then a guard will pop partially over and detect the theft as it's occurring. It's distinctly annoying, but I've only seen it happen twice.

At that point, it doesn't strike me as impossible that someone would teleport out as you're pressing the key, leading to an accidental theft. I haven't seen it first hand, but as Fleshreaper pointed out, I haven't walked on the moon either.

I don't need to see it firsthand, because it simply isn't how lag works. The server takes your input with regards to what you have highlighted at the moment you press a key. Server lag only delays that response. It can't actually make you interact with something you never consciously highlighted. It's just not possible.

Now, the situation you described (guard lagging and appearing right next to you in a position to detect a theft) is a possibility with lag. But it's a totally different situation, and it still doesn't indicate a need for some kind of opt-out feature.

The legitimate lag issue with the former is technically a reflex issue. The user commits to an action and then then the NPC moves. The game updates the location of the NPC instantly, and the user incorrectly activates the owned object. When you combine this with the E key occasionally becoming semi-responsive, requiring a couple uses to trigger and you do have a real recipe for accidental theft.

bellanca6561n · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Majic wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze how strenuously some people will argue against making improvements to the game.

I know why that's the case, but still, it never ceases to amaze me.

Or concede that there is a fundamental difference between single players games and online multiplayer games.

The whole Justice System homage to a series of single player games is certainly interesting. But the part I don't get is the notion that folks who simply don't play single player games, and never will, can't opt out of yet another anti-social, non multiplayer game system.

That said, "Disaster" might be overstating it. Awkwardly implemented perhaps....

https://youtu.be/1lpHzNuiGh0

This has nothing to do with the difference between single and multiplayer games. It has everything to do with people not wanting to suffer consequences for their actions.

And it's absolutely not going to be an anti-social system once the PvP elements get added. The current iteration of the system is basically here to make sure that the core mechanics are working correctly before the real fun starts.

I disagree because the consequences are wholly out of proportion to the actions.

Let's see....for doing a quick double E click on a merchant - to get past their merchant's variation on "May I help you?" I can become a criminal? In that short clip the same hotspot goes from a normal action to a criminal one depending on the NPC's use of her broom.

But we agree that it's antisocial as is.

Fleshreaper · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Fleshreaper wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Solution 1: Be more careful.

Solution 2: Don't be more careful, and cough up the paltry sum of gold for your bounty.

The Justice System is absolutely necessary in an Elder Scrolls game. I hate that they even have an opt out option for attacking innocents, because "opting out" should be done by not attacking innocents.

I never understand this kind of thinking. Let's FORCE people to do something they may not want to do. And your reply will be, don't play the game then. Well, look at it from the other side. They put the changes in and you don't like them. Guess what, don't play the game, then. Giving people an option is fine and it will not change you experience one bit.

It's about the game being a living, breathing world. No one is forcing you to click on the wrong items. No one is forcing you to heal criminals. No one is forcing you in to combat with that friendly NPC.

This is not a new feature in the Elder Scrolls universe, and actions should have consequences. The worst thing that could happen is you get slapped with a tiny fine and maybe have to rez.

Well, it wasn't always like that in ESO, the game did not ship like that. So, it's an update to the game that changes how it once was. I personally don't care, I love the current system. However, I am also a reasonable and understanding person and can see how the current system could be a problem, especially to those that have handicaps. I look at it like this, having options are going to keep people in the game and bring new people over. Because FORCE someone to play this way, WILL NOT WORK. They will leave and play something else. When enough players feel this way, the game will die.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

As for lag: it doesn't do what you think it does. If I interact with an NPC in front of me, and the NPC moves before the interaction happens, the dialogue window either opens late or doesn't open at all (if they moved out of range). But that interaction does not apply to some object behind the NPC that I never highlighted. That's simply not how server lag works.

The version of lag I've seen first hand are teleporting guards. It's not exactly the same issue. But, go to steal something while hidden, and then a guard will pop partially over and detect the theft as it's occurring. It's distinctly annoying, but I've only seen it happen twice.

At that point, it doesn't strike me as impossible that someone would teleport out as you're pressing the key, leading to an accidental theft. I haven't seen it first hand, but as Fleshreaper pointed out, I haven't walked on the moon either.

I don't need to see it firsthand, because it simply isn't how lag works. The server takes your input with regards to what you have highlighted at the moment you press a key. Server lag only delays that response. It can't actually make you interact with something you never consciously highlighted. It's just not possible.

Now, the situation you described (guard lagging and appearing right next to you in a position to detect a theft) is a possibility with lag. But it's a totally different situation, and it still doesn't indicate a need for some kind of opt-out feature.

The legitimate lag issue with the former is technically a reflex issue. The user commits to an action and then then the NPC moves. The game updates the location of the NPC instantly, and the user incorrectly activates the owned object. When you combine this with the E key occasionally becoming semi-responsive, requiring a couple uses to trigger and you do have a real recipe for accidental theft.

Then that's a reflex issue, not an issue with the Justice System as a whole. And reflex issues can be solved on the player's end.

Again, this is simply an issue of people not wanting to be careful enough and/or not wanting to adjust to a system where they can't just mindlessly run through town spamming abilities and opening crates.

YourNameHere · March 2015

So for those people who were complaining about not healing criminals?

My husband was doing a quest NOT IN A CITY. He had to fight members of a nord clan by drinking from an ale cask, then ask them to duel.

Well, while he was fighting, he put up the healing circle skill (first in the tree) for HIS OWN FIGHT. Someone ... at that moment, went THROUGH the circle and stole something and was caught.

My husband went from Citizen to killed by guards on sight in an instant while he was still doing his OWN QUEST.

So yes, this sucks as he was killed a mere moment later by a guard that walked nearby because of someone else who wanted to steal something. He was NOT healing anyone else but himself.

Totally not annoying. Mmmmhm. /sarcasm

As for clicking on an NPC and stealing accidently? Yup, nearly done that a few times. For those merchants that move around, it CAN happen. Remember there is a delay between your click and the server side, so even if you click on the merchant, the server may already had the merchant script moving him, so your click hits that bottle in the back. Boom ... stolen item.

I am torn about having a player choice in a toggle though.

Part of me says no, as it is now an integral game mechanic and it helps make the world of TESO feel alive.

But part of me says yes because of so many factors out of a player control (what OTHER players do - see example above -, lag, etc.)

eventide03b14a_ESO · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

I want to opt out so badly, some sort of toggle, because this really isn't my play style and I'm baffled as to how this got past the test server. Please remedy this, ZOS!

It got past the test servers because any criticism of the mechanics were drowned out by people who posted how awesome it was to wear stolen clothing that had absolutely no stats on it. Basically, shiny things make people dumb.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Adoryn wrote: »

I want to opt out so badly, some sort of toggle, because this really isn't my play style and I'm baffled as to how this got past the test server. Please remedy this, ZOS!

It got past the test servers because any criticism of the mechanics were drowned out by people who posted how awesome it was to wear stolen clothing that had absolutely no stats on it. Basically, shiny things make people dumb.

Or maybe the criticism of that particular mechanic was just people who hadn't gotten used to the new system complaining about an integral Elder Scrolls mechanic that has been sorely desired since launch.

The developers have made bad changes based on terrible player feedback in the past (starter islands, anyone?). This should not be another one of those situations. Learn how to play with the new system before complaining that it's "broken".

starkerealm · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Then that's a reflex issue, not an issue with the Justice System as a whole. And reflex issues can be solved on the player's end.

Again, this is simply an issue of people not wanting to be careful enough and/or not wanting to adjust to a system where they can't just mindlessly run through town spamming abilities and opening crates.

In theory, yes. In practice, we're talking about a change that occurs in a single frame. I'm sorry are your reflexes better than 1/60th of a second? And we do end up in the situation where someone issues a command and gets an unintended result.

And, that's lag. They went interacted on the shop keeper, except the shop keeper beamed up and they ended up pocketing something off his cart accidentally.

Keron · March 2015

asteldian wrote: »

The confirmation box before stealing should occur everytime. That resolves the misclick issue. Alternatively the game could allow a seperate keybind for interacting with people and objects (optional, similar to how you can have seperate keybinds for weapon swap). That way missing the NPC won't result in stealing.
Both simple solutions which will not inconvenience those who enjoy the system.

For me, that would be all I ask.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I don't need to see it firsthand, because it simply isn't how lag works. The server takes your input with regards to what you have highlighted at the moment you press a key. Server lag only delays that response. It can't actually make you interact with something you never consciously highlighted. It's just not possible.

Okay, then it is my tremor or my vision or even twitchy NPCs. Doesn't change the fact that sometimes you grab something unintended, on a market place, without being hidden. If a guard sees you doing it, no matter the scale of bounty on your head, you get heat (the red indicator) and KOS. And that is bad. Especially if you got your pack full of honestly stolen stuff that you intent to fence off.

Messy1 · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

Messy1 wrote: »

Could you possibly rename your post something like . . . "Justice System Better player controls needed" ? I think disaster is too strong of a word here.

Well it's a disaster for folks who don't like being all super cautious about every move they make when they're used to being able to play the game like any other MMO or like you know, pre-patch Though I do see your point, especially when a lot of folks won't read the entire thread (completely fair by now), so I did change it to be a tad more specific!

Thank you sir! Since you are so reasonable you can send me a message and I will give you an in game reward!!!

Fleshreaper · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Adoryn wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It's about the game being a living, breathing world. No one is forcing you to click on the wrong items. No one is forcing you to heal criminals. No one is forcing you in to combat with that friendly NPC.

This is not a new feature in the Elder Scrolls universe, and actions should have consequences.

Not sure if you're trolling or didn't read... the point of my complaint was not that the justice system exists, but that it is poorly implemented in a way that actually does create situations players don't have control over. Perhaps one could argue to be more careful about who to assist, but stuff like trying to speak with a merchant but ending up stealing instead unintentionally is just dumb especially when it's due to lag or NPC movements or even just proximity. If I intended to steal then fine, consequences make sense.

You do have control over your actions, so I'm not buying that argument at all.

As for lag: it doesn't do what you think it does. If I interact with an NPC in front of me, and the NPC moves before the interaction happens, the dialogue window either opens late or doesn't open at all (if they moved out of range). But that interaction does not apply to some object behind the NPC that I never highlighted. That's simply not how server lag works.

So if you don't intend to steal, don't steal stuff. I've yet to run in to that problem on a single one of my characters.

You seem to not understand, so I highlighted in your OWN words. So, it either opens later "OR" the player interacts with what ever is behind the NPC.

eventide03b14a_ESO · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Adoryn wrote: »

I want to opt out so badly, some sort of toggle, because this really isn't my play style and I'm baffled as to how this got past the test server. Please remedy this, ZOS!

It got past the test servers because any criticism of the mechanics were drowned out by people who posted how awesome it was to wear stolen clothing that had absolutely no stats on it. Basically, shiny things make people dumb.

Or maybe the criticism of that particular mechanic was just people who hadn't gotten used to the new system complaining about an integral Elder Scrolls mechanic that has been sorely desired since launch.

The developers have made bad changes based on terrible player feedback in the past (starter islands, anyone?). This should not be another one of those situations. Learn how to play with the new system before complaining that it's "broken".

Uh...no. Actually other TES games had a lot more options than just pay or run. You really can't compare this to the single player games in any meaningful way.

utbackpacker911b14_ESO · March 2015

Ashtaris wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Majic wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze how strenuously some people will argue against making improvements to the game.

I know why that's the case, but still, it never ceases to amaze me.

Because some short sighted individuals don't like you rocking THEIR boat Actually I love the Justice system and have a sneaky vamp NB Kahjiit that's very good at it. However, I do believe there is room for improvements and having a total opt-out for people who don't want to participate is something that I would love to see as well. Really, there is no good reason they shouldn't do it IMHO.

I'd rather hear a good reason as to why an opt-out is needed. "I don't like having to pay attention to my surroundings," is not a good reason.

OK, but who is it hurting by not giving people the option? You? No, because you can still play like you want to. The game? No, because there are those who will participate. It's about giving people a choice, not shoving it down their throats.

This is the whole argument! It isn't SHOVED down your throat at all! You choose to loot items or not loot items! If there is a rare random blips in the system that is gaming.I haven't encountered any.All of the things that have happen to me have been due to my lack of attention.There is not a game out there that is perfect,you rez,forget about it and GAME ON!

Majic · March 2015

Necessary Change

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Majic wrote: »

A Case In Pointless

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

This thread isn't suggesting an improvement. It's suggesting an even further reduction in the interactivity of the world.

If you aren't used to having a Justice System in-game, then get used to it. This is the Elder Scrolls Online, and the Justice System is absolutely, 100% indispensable. There shouldn't be any checkboxes that let you opt out, but since there are, no one has any excuses.

Like I said, it never ceases to amaze me, and it never leads to a better game.

Your own arguments argue against you.

Please explain.

This is an unnecessary change (not an improvement) to a system that is actually functioning remarkably well for having been introduced to the entire world in one go. Adding more options is not always a good thing. The developers had a clear vision with the Justice System, and this first step lays an excellent foundation for the future.

Explained here, as well as in the OP.

If you disagree, that's fine: no harm, no foul, more power to you. But insisting that other players should have to put up with a treacherous and misleading interface because you like the way it is exemplifies the sort of conceit this community could use less of.

Seriously -- and I'm sorry if I come off as trenchant in saying it -- but there's no nice way to honestly describe the hostility toward feedback that makes these forums so toxic, and in turn hurts both the ESO community and the game itself.

Again, I want to emphasize that I very much respect that you are entitled to your own opinions about game features, whatever they may be, and encourage you to share them whenever you want.

All I'm asking is that this same respect be shown to other players, and that they not have to face being jumped on and badgered when they post their legitimate concerns in the forums.

It hurts us all when that happens, and there's no excuse for it.

eventide03b14a_ESO · March 2015

utbackpacker911b14_ESO wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Majic wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze how strenuously some people will argue against making improvements to the game.

I know why that's the case, but still, it never ceases to amaze me.

Because some short sighted individuals don't like you rocking THEIR boat Actually I love the Justice system and have a sneaky vamp NB Kahjiit that's very good at it. However, I do believe there is room for improvements and having a total opt-out for people who don't want to participate is something that I would love to see as well. Really, there is no good reason they shouldn't do it IMHO.

I'd rather hear a good reason as to why an opt-out is needed. "I don't like having to pay attention to my surroundings," is not a good reason.

OK, but who is it hurting by not giving people the option? You? No, because you can still play like you want to. The game? No, because there are those who will participate. It's about giving people a choice, not shoving it down their throats.

This is the whole argument! It isn't SHOVED down your throat at all! You choose to loot items or not loot items! If there is a rare random blips in the system that is gaming.I haven't encountered any.All of the things that have happen to me have been due to my lack of attention.There is not a game out there that is perfect,you rez,forget about it and GAME ON!

Exclamation points and all caps don't actually strengthen your argument.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Fleshreaper wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Adoryn wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It's about the game being a living, breathing world. No one is forcing you to click on the wrong items. No one is forcing you to heal criminals. No one is forcing you in to combat with that friendly NPC.

This is not a new feature in the Elder Scrolls universe, and actions should have consequences.

Not sure if you're trolling or didn't read... the point of my complaint was not that the justice system exists, but that it is poorly implemented in a way that actually does create situations players don't have control over. Perhaps one could argue to be more careful about who to assist, but stuff like trying to speak with a merchant but ending up stealing instead unintentionally is just dumb especially when it's due to lag or NPC movements or even just proximity. If I intended to steal then fine, consequences make sense.

You do have control over your actions, so I'm not buying that argument at all.

As for lag: it doesn't do what you think it does. If I interact with an NPC in front of me, and the NPC moves before the interaction happens, the dialogue window either opens late or doesn't open at all (if they moved out of range). But that interaction does not apply to some object behind the NPC that I never highlighted. That's simply not how server lag works.

So if you don't intend to steal, don't steal stuff. I've yet to run in to that problem on a single one of my characters.

You seem to not understand, so I highlighted in your OWN words. So, it either opens later "OR" the player interacts with what ever is behind the NPC.

No. The dialogue not popping up does not mean that the player interacts with the object behind the NPC. That. Is. Not. How. Server. Lag. Works.

And in a more general response to the, "But what if I just clicked a hair too late and got the wrong thing by accident?" crowd: too bad. Cough up the 80 gold. You literally have lost nothing.

WhimsyDragon · March 2015

Whether or not lag is definitely the reason is kind of moot point if intent does not exist.

starkerealm · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

And in a more general response to the, "But what if I just clicked a hair too late and got the wrong thing by accident?" crowd: too bad. Cough up the 80 gold. You literally have lost nothing.

No, you have literally lost 80 gold. For someone who keeps insisting that the secondary consequences of lag aren't actually lag, you shouldn't say, "you literally have lost nothing," immediately saying "yeah, you're going out of pocket for this."

Anyway, we really need 3 settings. All active by default. "Do not interact with owned objects." "Do not harm innocents." "Do not heal criminals." Then, when you get quests that require stealing or shaking down people, you get a tutorial message asking you, "hey, you want to turn this thing off?"

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

Whether or not lag is definitely the reason is kind of moot point if intent does not exist.

It's not a moot point.

If you don't intend to steal something, then you have no one but yourself to blame when you click on something and steal it. And just as in prior games, if you "accidentally" steal something in plain view of the guards, you will have to face the consequences.

SantieClaws · March 2015

I'd like the options extended just a bit so I cannot hurt NPCs in normal circumstances - but if they hit me first then I would like to be able to defend myself by shooting them full of arrows - or some sort of optional 'knockout but not quite dead' blow.

starkerealm · March 2015

Titansteele wrote: »

Last night I encountered a weird scenario where I was sitting idle while talking on the phone and out of nowhere I got a bounty and a guard arrested me. My hands were nowhere near a mouse or the keyboard so I didn't heal someone else, nor did I accidentally hit someone, I was not in a group at the time so there is no reason as to why I was arrested. Has anyone else ever encountered this or indeed have a possible explanation I am missing?

The only thing I can think is... if you'd put a HoT on someone who went on to break the law, or used something like refreshing paths, and someone with a bounty stepped on it. I can't think of any healer proc that will auto fire, but I also don't run a healer so, I'm not sure.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

And in a more general response to the, "But what if I just clicked a hair too late and got the wrong thing by accident?" crowd: too bad. Cough up the 80 gold. You literally have lost nothing.

No, you have literally lost 80 gold. For someone who keeps insisting that the secondary consequences of lag aren't actually lag, you shouldn't say, "you literally have lost nothing," immediately saying "yeah, you're going out of pocket for this."

Anyway, we really need 3 settings. All active by default. "Do not interact with owned objects." "Do not harm innocents." "Do not heal criminals." Then, when you get quests that require stealing or shaking down people, you get a tutorial message asking you, "hey, you want to turn this thing off?"

Sorry, I should have been more specific: you have lost an infinitesimally small amount of gold. I rounded down from infinitesimally small to nothing.

We don't need any settings except self-control and personal responsibility, but since we have one opt-out, I guess I'll have to settle for having one.

WhimsyDragon · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

If you don't intend to steal something, then you have no one but yourself to blame when you click on something and steal it. And just as in prior games, if you "accidentally" steal something in plain view of the guards, you will have to face the consequences.

I'm not sure I follow this logic...

eventide03b14a_ESO · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Fleshreaper wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Adoryn wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It's about the game being a living, breathing world. No one is forcing you to click on the wrong items. No one is forcing you to heal criminals. No one is forcing you in to combat with that friendly NPC.

This is not a new feature in the Elder Scrolls universe, and actions should have consequences.

Not sure if you're trolling or didn't read... the point of my complaint was not that the justice system exists, but that it is poorly implemented in a way that actually does create situations players don't have control over. Perhaps one could argue to be more careful about who to assist, but stuff like trying to speak with a merchant but ending up stealing instead unintentionally is just dumb especially when it's due to lag or NPC movements or even just proximity. If I intended to steal then fine, consequences make sense.

You do have control over your actions, so I'm not buying that argument at all.

As for lag: it doesn't do what you think it does. If I interact with an NPC in front of me, and the NPC moves before the interaction happens, the dialogue window either opens late or doesn't open at all (if they moved out of range). But that interaction does not apply to some object behind the NPC that I never highlighted. That's simply not how server lag works.

So if you don't intend to steal, don't steal stuff. I've yet to run in to that problem on a single one of my characters.

You seem to not understand, so I highlighted in your OWN words. So, it either opens later "OR" the player interacts with what ever is behind the NPC.

No. The dialogue not popping up does not mean that the player interacts with the object behind the NPC. That. Is. Not. How. Server. Lag. Works.

And in a more general response to the, "But what if I just clicked a hair too late and got the wrong thing by accident?" crowd: too bad. Cough up the 80 gold. You literally have lost nothing.

I don't think you know what the word "literally" means.

eventide03b14a_ESO · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

And in a more general response to the, "But what if I just clicked a hair too late and got the wrong thing by accident?" crowd: too bad. Cough up the 80 gold. You literally have lost nothing.

No, you have literally lost 80 gold. For someone who keeps insisting that the secondary consequences of lag aren't actually lag, you shouldn't say, "you literally have lost nothing," immediately saying "yeah, you're going out of pocket for this."

Anyway, we really need 3 settings. All active by default. "Do not interact with owned objects." "Do not harm innocents." "Do not heal criminals." Then, when you get quests that require stealing or shaking down people, you get a tutorial message asking you, "hey, you want to turn this thing off?"

Sorry, I should have been more specific: you have lost an infinitesimally small amount of gold. I rounded down from infinitesimally small to nothing.

We don't need any settings except self-control and personal responsibility, but since we have one opt-out, I guess I'll have to settle for having one.

That's relative. 80 gold might be "infinitesimally small" to you, but to someone who is broke it could be a lot more meaningful. This might surprise you, but different people have different perceptions than your own and value different things.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

And in a more general response to the, "But what if I just clicked a hair too late and got the wrong thing by accident?" crowd: too bad. Cough up the 80 gold. You literally have lost nothing.

No, you have literally lost 80 gold. For someone who keeps insisting that the secondary consequences of lag aren't actually lag, you shouldn't say, "you literally have lost nothing," immediately saying "yeah, you're going out of pocket for this."

Anyway, we really need 3 settings. All active by default. "Do not interact with owned objects." "Do not harm innocents." "Do not heal criminals." Then, when you get quests that require stealing or shaking down people, you get a tutorial message asking you, "hey, you want to turn this thing off?"

Sorry, I should have been more specific: you have lost an infinitesimally small amount of gold. I rounded down from infinitesimally small to nothing.

We don't need any settings except self-control and personal responsibility, but since we have one opt-out, I guess I'll have to settle for having one.

That's relative. 80 gold might be "infinitesimally small" to you, but to someone who is broke it could be a lot more meaningful. This might surprise you, but different people have different perceptions than your own and value different things.

Well, maybe the broke people should get more gold. If they need 80 gold, they will need to sell... let's see... about 4 normal quality items or a stack of foul hides. Or they could just kill a few things. Or... wait for it... they could not steal and incur a bounty if they (inexplicably) don't have the gold to cover it.

starkerealm · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

And in a more general response to the, "But what if I just clicked a hair too late and got the wrong thing by accident?" crowd: too bad. Cough up the 80 gold. You literally have lost nothing.

No, you have literally lost 80 gold. For someone who keeps insisting that the secondary consequences of lag aren't actually lag, you shouldn't say, "you literally have lost nothing," immediately saying "yeah, you're going out of pocket for this."

Anyway, we really need 3 settings. All active by default. "Do not interact with owned objects." "Do not harm innocents." "Do not heal criminals." Then, when you get quests that require stealing or shaking down people, you get a tutorial message asking you, "hey, you want to turn this thing off?"

Sorry, I should have been more specific: you have lost an infinitesimally small amount of gold. I rounded down from infinitesimally small to nothing.

We don't need any settings except self-control and personal responsibility, but since we have one opt-out, I guess I'll have to settle for having one.

Except we do when the game gets cheeky, which it does occasionally. They cleaned up some of the worst offenders on the PTS, but there are still a lot of places in the game where there are a lot of owned objects very close to someone/something you'll want/need to interact with. One of the worst offenders I remember (aside from the Guild Kiosks in Windhelm) was the cooking fire in Sentinel, where there were various food items hanging in front of it interfering with your ability to actually use the cooking fire. (Hilariously, I remember Windhelm having a similar issue in TES5, where one of the merchant stalls was hanging weapons in front that were incredibly easy to accidentally nick while trying to talk to her.)

Simply locking that off, especially in an environment where you can't roll back to an earlier save, isn't too much to ask. And saying, "no, it doesn't matter because it's not useful to anyone," obviously isn't the case because there's actually an addon out there for precisely this kind of situation.