should ZOS change the Champion System grind to make it quicker?

sigsergv · March 2015

There is just one simple solution — disable CP for PvP. I don't care about PvE, because it doesn't affect me directly that someone got over 300 CP for example. I don't have time for DSA or other stuff like that and I'm sure there are lot of such users.

cazlonb16_ESO · March 2015

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

This one is glad it is sooooo very long. It is not the ending destination (3600 Cp) but the Journey that is important

So doing Cadwell's Silver and Gold over and over and over and over and...is an enjoyable journey for you ? Because that's how ZOS intend us to gain CP appearantly.

After the Veteran system was such a smashing success with the players I'm not sure many would agree and that required you to play through Cadwell's only once.

Tintinabula · March 2015

Yes, the CP grind currently takes almost 10 years to complete! Increase the exp rate so the grind goes faster!

Sorry, the last game I poured that much time in to was EvE online and they actually added content to make skilling up worth it via new ships and skill books etc. Never again.

Aimora · March 2015

Yes, the CP grind currently takes almost 10 years to complete! Increase the exp rate so the grind goes faster!

If you don't grind mobs or play on alt while enlightened it's an incredibly slow process, yesterday I did Sanctum, 2x AA, both dailies and a vet dungeon and only got 100K exp without enlightenment. The day before I did Santum and AA and only got 70k with enlightenment - I was in game all day and ended up not even getting 1 CP. The other day I just leveled my alt and grinded mobs and got 3 CP in just over 3hrs. I want to play my main but if I do I have little chance of gaining points, unless I grind mobs in Riften - not my idea of fun - I just wish they would make it so that you gained points by just playing as you like rather than being forced into leveling an alt or grinding mobs. Trials and dungeons are some of the hardest content in game and getting 16xp for killing a troll in sanctum seems a little out of sync!

olsborg · March 2015

Yes, but do something else not listed here....

Increase certain dailyquests' XP so casuals can do these and still hang on the grind train.
They already made it more casual-friendly by allowing enlightenment to be stored for up to 12 days. (12cp)

BlackEar · March 2015

Lol at those voting options.

Mods, please close this thread.

What a waste.

Messy1 · March 2015

No, keep the Champion system grind the way it is, 10 years isn't that long to cap it out, in fact some players can do it in less than 3 years by playing ESO full-time 24/7!

Keep CP the way it is, maybe a few tweaks here and there, but continue to introduce new skill lines so CP becomes more of a backdrop and not a must have type of deal.

Kragorn · March 2015

Bloodfang wrote: »

CP is not meant to grind.

Trion said that about their PA system which ZOS clearly based CPs on (in part) and Rift too showed this idea is just wrong.

It's a character progression system and in the world of PVE most players' focus is largely or entirely on making their character 'better', so it becomes a goal to maximise its benefits.

Saying it's not 'meant' to be a grind on the part of a developer is disingenuous at best, they KNOW players WILL grind it that's one of the basic theories behind MMO hamster-wheels and well published in gaming theory and research circles. Blizzard, Trion, Turbine, ZOS and every other single MMO developer knows full well how players will react to gaming subsystems like Champion Points THAT'S WHY THEY IMPLEMENT THEM!

It's entirely true the game isn't tuned and never will be based on players capping CPs, it's also true that reality is IRRELEVANT to many (most) players' view of what they HAVE to do to remain 'competitive': ZOS are BANKING on that compulsion!

It's an absolute truism, all MMOs end up in a grind (PVE and PVP) at level cap, there's nothing else that can happen since developers can't produce content as fast as players consume it, so every MMO developer implements grinds .. be they 'dailies', 'rep grinds', 'CP/PA ginds', etc. .. the point to debate is how 'fun' (or not) such mechanics are on a case-by-case basis.

Right now I consider the PA grind to be a failure since it's turning off large numbers of players whose compulsion towards doing it drives them towards it while thre mind-numbing tedium and the vast distance they'll have to travel to even begin to see the end repulses them from it. As it stands I think the CP system is likely to lead to many leaving once they hit 50, time will tell if ZOS can milk them for enough $$$ before they give up.

byrom101b16_ESO · March 2015

Yes, it's too grindy for casuals who can't play this game full time. Make it so that daily quests in certain areas can give around 200k exp each for completing them to reduce the grind for casuals!

Vaelen wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Please no faster CP grind. Let's have some more fun before the entire game breaks down because of people with 3000 CP.

Try running Sanctum, Vet CoA, or Vet DSA and let me know how fun it is without 300+ CPs.

95 CPs and Vet CoA is doable on my tissue paper armoured Sorc with a good group.. just about...

No one sems to be running Vet DSA as CP accumulation is king and it's much faster running normal for 3/4 of a CP bar in under an hour.

Sanctum - haven't been back in there since 1.6...

LordSkyKnight · March 2015

Why play an MMO when apparently you don't like the way the genre works.

I hate leveling, I hate grinding, I hate being forced to group, I want more and more solo stuff.

I think some people need to find a new type of game to play.

ItsGlaive · March 2015

They've kind of changed it already. Enlightenment has gone from storing a total of three days to a total of twelve. Should make a hell of a difference for the more casual player.

Valencer · March 2015

Everything in this game (and others) is being called a grind nowadays. The term is absolutely meaningless.

If you want to run yourself into a brick wall and try to get all 3600 CP as fast as possible, go right ahead. The rest of us can enjoy the game and its' new virtually endless progression.

Skjoldur · March 2015

Yes, but do something else not listed here....

crislevin wrote: »

A poll with 75% of the answer being on one side isn't fair.

CP is a time sink, a necessity for any MMO, making it quick serve no purpose.

True, but it also has to be about motivation... It is not that motivating at the moment if it takes _that_ long for "normal" people.

Avindra · March 2015

Yes, the CP grind currently takes almost 10 years to complete! Increase the exp rate so the grind goes faster!

5 CP a day for 2 years is a long time to get that "carrot" ZOS are dangling in front of us.

After 6 months there will be more games released and less players in ESO.
Its not like the release of the game on console will bring more players for us to play with because I thought ZOS said they will be on a seperate server and not able to play with the PC ESO version.

Surely there will be more content added in a few months, even if they speed up the enlightenment to 20 CP a day that will still keep everyone occupied for 6 months which gives ZOS plenty of time to release something else.

CaptainObvious · March 2015

Part of the problem is that the CP system is being considered in a vacuum. Once the console releases happen then content mode is going to be in full swing. So the idea is to provide a hamster wheel to give people a way to progress now with the intention of having it last for years and start pumping in content when they can.

They just aren't counting on or ignoring people that must compulsively play because they are no longer maxxed out.

When the new areas come out there will probably be complaints nerfing xp from those areas because the gain is too fast.

Saucy_Jack · March 2015

Has anyone considered the fact that getting all the CP is *supposed* to take a while so that Zenimax has *time* to work on new content without people blathering in their ear every day about how "there's no endgame!"

Like, two or three days after the game was *released*, people were already v14 and complaining because they had finished everything. Think of all the time that went into making the game - how long it was in development - and then 2-3 days later, people are saying there's nothing to do. Well friends, if that's what you did, there will never be enough content for you. Ever.

So now Zeni has created a CP system whereas even the most dedicated of grinders won't completely max out until months or at least a year down the road. The odd thing is, they're STILL getting complaints of "there's no endgame" (which boggles me completely). Zeni, with the CP system, is merely giving themselves some time to work on the very thing that the complainers want: more content, more endgame, more material.

Hopefully people understand that a whole new area is not developed in the space of a week. So if they add new content in, and you finish it in 3 days, people will be waiting for a bit until more new content gets put in. The CP system guarantees (or, in my mind, SHOULD've guaranteed) that the "wait for new content" would be mitigated with the colossal task of maxing CP, but the complaints haven't stopped.

A little patience never hurt anyone; at least now instead of just grinding a v14 for no character stat gains, we have the CP system that will continue to improve our characters for the long haul. There is endgame. There are things to be worked on. Players get to work on gaining CP, and Zeni gets to work on new content.

LtCrunch · March 2015

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

Has anyone considered the fact that getting all the CP is *supposed* to take a while so that Zenimax has *time* to work on new content without people blathering in their ear every day about how "there's no endgame!"

Like, two or three days after the game was *released*, people were already v14 and complaining because they had finished everything. Think of all the time that went into making the game - how long it was in development - and then 2-3 days later, people are saying there's nothing to do. Well friends, if that's what you did, there will never be enough content for you. Ever.

So now Zeni has created a CP system whereas even the most dedicated of grinders won't completely max out until months or at least a year down the road. The odd thing is, they're STILL getting complaints of "there's no endgame" (which boggles me completely). Zeni, with the CP system, is merely giving themselves some time to work on the very thing that the complainers want: more content, more endgame, more material.

Hopefully people understand that a whole new area is not developed in the space of a week. So if they add new content in, and you finish it in 3 days, people will be waiting for a bit until more new content gets put in. The CP system guarantees (or, in my mind, SHOULD've guaranteed) that the "wait for new content" would be mitigated with the colossal task of maxing CP, but the complaints haven't stopped.

A little patience never hurt anyone; at least now instead of just grinding a v14 for no character stat gains, we have the CP system that will continue to improve our characters for the long haul. There is endgame. There are things to be worked on. Players get to work on gaining CP, and Zeni gets to work on new content.

It's literally impossible for someone to have hit VR14 in "two or three days" after the game released. The max level was VR10 at launch, VR12 after update 1 and VR14 wasn't around until update 4. Methinks you weren't around at launch or maybe you just have a terrible memory.

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO · March 2015

No, keep the Champion system grind the way it is, 10 years isn't that long to cap it out, in fact some players can do it in less than 3 years by playing ESO full-time 24/7!

You are not supposed to grind it, God. It is a long term progression system, don't you people learn it? Might be a little bit too slow considering the amount of points you can get, yes. But it should not be grindable.

Btw nice poll, not pending to one side at all. Still you can see most people are aware of the real intention of the Champion System.

Roechacca · March 2015

There's a lot of yes options and one no option .

KleanZlate · March 2015

Right now some feel it's too much work. Make it easier and in a while the same people will complain that there's nothing to grind for. It's a lose - lose situation for ZoS.

Roechacca · March 2015

Who came up with the math it will take 10 years to complete ?

Generic_08_15 · March 2015

No, keep the Champion system grind the way it is, 10 years isn't that long to cap it out, in fact some players can do it in less than 3 years by playing ESO full-time 24/7!

FFS, why do some people always see these CP as a "must-have grind" which should be accomplished in a short time? This is supposed to take long and just provide small boni over a long time period.

BBSooner · March 2015

I'm completely fine with the way the champion point gain is currently laid out.

zeuseason · March 2015

Yes, the CP grind currently takes almost 10 years to complete! Increase the exp rate so the grind goes faster!

Gamers need rewards for their actions. The slow XP champ points is a very unrewarding system as it takes so long to make minute incremental improvements to your character. Hours of grinding for a .1% upgrade to a single stat and the tier rewards are too far off because of the classification cycling in rewarding points.

The same goes with gear. Players want to improve their characters but because the gear has such small and insignificant itemization, players will rarely change their gear and you'll find vet characters wearing the same gear for many many days/levels or even still wearing some level 20 neck piece.

Cuyler · March 2015

No, keep the Champion system grind the way it is, 10 years isn't that long to cap it out, in fact some players can do it in less than 3 years by playing ESO full-time 24/7!

It's not bad the way it is, I'm averaging about 3 CP a day with "E". I would however like to see side quest xp increased because currently it's laughable to even complete them as they give the same xp as killing 1-2 mobs.

eventide03b14a_ESO · March 2015

No, keep the Champion system grind the way it is, 10 years isn't that long to cap it out, in fact some players can do it in less than 3 years by playing ESO full-time 24/7!

Look at what you get for hyperbole. If you had framed this poll as something serious you might have gotten people on your side. Can I ask everyone who didn't vote no what the frickin hurry is? Seriously guys. This is an opportunity to see your character slowly and subtly develop over time. It's an MMO, it's meant to be played over a long period of time.

Pirhana7_ESO · March 2015

No, keep the Champion system grind the way it is, 10 years isn't that long to cap it out, in fact some players can do it in less than 3 years by playing ESO full-time 24/7!

Vaelen wrote: »

The whole point of the Champion System is so you a ALWAYS have something to work towards and the ability to improve your character in very small amounts. And a reward for continueing to play and doing what you want to do. The idea is that most people will NEVER cap it out.

If you make it quicker then it kinda ruins the whole point of the system, then people will hit that "im finished wall" and have nothing to aim for. Or a way to keep improving their character.

Obscure · March 2015

Yes, but do something else not listed here....

The Champion System was expressly designed not to be grinded.

That's the problem.

The only objectively verifiable accounting for a player's time in a MMO is found in it's progression system. The champion points are a massive time sink, and thus players will approach the progession in the best XP:Time ratio they possibly can as not to waste more time than is already being sunk. The best source of XP:Time ratio is grinding.

The system is a massive distraction from enjoying the game, and instead of discouraging grinding by being an absurd amount of vertical progression, it's actually encouraging it. Being "maxed out" is where end game begins. If the vertical progression will take most players 10 years to chew through, they will not reach end game for 10 years.

How the Champion System should have been designed was with gameplay and storytelling at the forefront, not XP, something TES players are long familiar with. You sprint a lot? Champion points awarded in the Thief and specifically to reduce the cost of sprinting. You block a lot? Champion points awarded in the Warrior and specifically to reduce the cost of blocking. It's a hallmark of TES games to track your behaviour and improve your character based on how you play the game. It should've been the obvious design choice for the Champion system if they truly did not want players to grind it. Unfortunately their lack of foresight will now result in large progression gaps as time goes by, with champion point grinders simply being better than everyone else. It will ultimately become a game for a small niche of dedicated elites, inaccessible to average players.

Erock25 · March 2015

No, keep the Champion system grind the way it is, 10 years isn't that long to cap it out, in fact some players can do it in less than 3 years by playing ESO full-time 24/7!

What a loaded poll. I am a firm believer that MMOs need that carrot on the end of the stick to keep people engaged. I do think diminishing returns should be more harsh in the CP system, however .... meaning you can gain something like 80% total power with 360 CP and 90% total power with 1200 CP.

I_killed_Vivec · March 2015

Obscure wrote: »

The Champion System was expressly designed not to be grinded.

That's the problem.

The only objectively verifiable accounting for a player's time in a MMO is found in it's progression system. The champion points are a massive time sink, and thus players will approach the progession in the best XP:Time ratio they possibly can as not to waste more time than is already being sunk. The best source of XP:Time ratio is grinding.

The system is a massive distraction from enjoying the game, and instead of discouraging grinding by being an absurd amount of vertical progression, it's actually encouraging it. Being "maxed out" is where end game begins. If the vertical progression will take most players 10 years to chew through, they will not reach end game for 10 years.

How the Champion System should have been designed was with gameplay and storytelling at the forefront, not XP, something TES players are long familiar with. You sprint a lot? Champion points awarded in the Thief and specifically to reduce the cost of sprinting. You block a lot? Champion points awarded in the Warrior and specifically to reduce the cost of blocking. It's a hallmark of TES games to track your behaviour and improve your character based on how you play the game. It should've been the obvious design choice for the Champion system if they truly did not want players to grind it. Unfortunately their lack of foresight will now result in large progression gaps as time goes by, with champion point grinders simply being better than everyone else. It will ultimately become a game for a small niche of dedicated elites, inaccessible to average players.

With racial and class advantages...

The other problem is that for a lot of people there is only grinding (of some sort) left because there's no new content.

But...

This is looking at the problem from the viewpoint of someone who has already played the game for months.

If you are a console player and start playing in June then these problems just do not exist. CP won't have to be a grind; you will gain CP just from playing the game. And by then ZoS might have sorted out regular DLC updates, so progression (CP and VR) is enabled simply by playing the content.

Though of course some people will still choose to grind, just to get there a little bit quicker...