Vet XP is broken now, math included

jluceyub17_ESO · March 2015

Muizer wrote: »

Well let's try a different approach. Apart from 'completing all the content in a zone", is there anything else that might affect the total xp extracted from a zone (apart from the subscription bonus)?

Some suggestions:

- wearing explorer traits on your armour. Makes a difference, but I don't know how much or whether it scales with the number of traited items)
- "finesse". Vague concept, but I've heard unquantified suggestions that xp gain for kills depends on how you make the kill.
- quest hoarding: if you collect all the quests in a mini-zone and then work on them in parallel you're likely killing less mobs than you would be if you completed each in succession.
- quest order: in zones 1-50, the xp gain from quests drops as you out-level them. Are we sure something similar isn't happening in veteran zones as well, even if the quests aren't colour tagged? And perhaps it does matter to the total whether you do them out of-sequence? Or, for instance, complete all the dungeons, dolmens and bosses first, rather than along the way, or saved up tilll last?

Finesse was something they tried to include but it didn't make the final release version. As long as you do or take significant damage or significant healing to someone doing/taking significant damage (Edit: and are around the same level as the mob) you get full XP credit for the kill.

Out-leveling is usually not an issue an Vet Zones since you should be the same vet level as or within 1 vet level of the zone's level, unless you leveled by some other means and are coming back to a zone you out-leveled.

Torquebow · March 2015

c0rp wrote: »

I am gaining one vet level per zone. Just like I always have. Just sayin.

Yeah same here, I am a subscriber still. The major quests netted me 17k. I really don't know what the hell people are talking about.

Gorthax · March 2015

I think people are just either A) Blowing smoke out their....well....you know; or B ) their addon is junk and not telling them the right value; or C ) just trying to complain so they can get xp increased (granted it does need a repass on how much is granted) to do less work.

But what do I know. I am seeing the same progress as I did pre nerf to xp. 1 vet level PER zone. Though I complete all dungeons, world bosses, (i skip finding every location because MEH) and do all the major quest. Plus I kill lots of stuff on my way between quest as well as farm nodes.

I have three vr14s and working on my fourth. My fourth is the ONLY post xp nerf going through this stuff and I dont see any difference in leveling pace except for the dont need MILLIONS of xp for the next vr level

Zheg · March 2015

I see multiple problems that I can put a finger on, and others that I can't necessarily put a finger on.

Problems I have a good grasp of:

Dolmen completion does not give reward xp any more, just the mob xp. It used to be the same as you'd get for clearing a World Boss
The % per level that a World Boss used to give is now significantly lower with the 1 million per level system. This is confirmed by the fact that a few months ago if you cleared all of the WBs and dolmens in a silver or gold set of zones you would get about 1.5-2 FULL vet levels off of solely that, and now you get about 0.25% a vet level.
You used to be able to skip some quests by doing dungeon runs like vet sewers and get about the same XP or more than you would if you had spent that time questing. This allowed for a change of pace when questing got boring. The XP you get for dungeons isn't as good any more, so you really need to be questing to hit the same xp rate
You used to be able to do craglorn grinds and skip the silver/gold crap altogether and get to max level in a few days. This is no longer possible (although in some ways it's a good thing because those boss grinds could make your eyes bleed after a while).
It seems like grinding open world mobs and doing every single quest are the only decent ways to increase your vet ranks now, and both take a long time and lack variety, so this just feels painful.
Vet XP rewards still need some refining for some quests
Craglorn is very much borked right now. The quests are no where near enough to go from v10 to v14, and with all of the nerfs to boss xp in crag, you pretty much just need to grind mobs to finish.

Problems I don't have a good grasp of:

There might be bugs floating around with XP rewards. I and a few others have said we don't see the 1 vet level per zone system working quite right, others emphatically say they do. I know for a fact that this doesn't work for craglorn any more, but the jury seems to be out for the silver and gold zones.
ZOS might have tried to shift the focus for leveling to be almost solely on questing (removal of dolmen reward xp, lowering of World Boss % xp towards a vet level, etc.). I'm not sure if this is an intentional position on their part, or if they just haven't dug into the numbers yet.

Given the things I can't put a finger on, I'll close out my thoughts by saying that currently it seems like you are forced to absolutely clear entire zones to get your vet level, which really just means questing for 95% of the time. Previously, you could do dungeon runs and hit up Craglorn for a change of pace and get to V14 by doing a good mix of activities. All in all, since most people didn't do every single quest through all of silver and gold for all of their alts (previously), as a whole, it seems much much slower to hit v14 now. This is counter to ZOS' and the players' position of the vet grind being 'fluff' and pretty awful in general.

I've just given up leveling alts through the vet ranks for now. I'm hoping they finally push through real increases in pvp xp so I can just do that for a couple of weeks instead.

LEGENDARYYY · March 2015

seriously, if they increase the XP gain then ppl can get to vet lvl 14 within a few weeks. How is that OK? Reaching top level should take months in an MMO imo.

I'm a magicka based EP DK One-hand and shield tank with off-hand destruction staff DPS.

I work full time at my job. I went from vr1 to vr6,5, +34 CP in 2 weeks with casual play doing wtf I wanted, questing, crafting, exploring, dungeons, even spent hours stealing stuff when justice system arrived and played some PvP.

I'm now in Caldwells Silver, Alik'r desert (vet4) with my vr6

I DON'T EVEN BUILD MAIN DMG? IM A TANK.

Increasing XP gain is not the solution. What ESO need is more content/variety, and as similiar XP gain as possible for any play style (Questing, dungeons, PvP, grinding).

Please DO NOT increase XP gain, I'd rather see it become more balanced.

Zheg · March 2015

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

seriously, if they increase the XP gain then ppl can get to vet lvl 14 within a few weeks. How is that OK? Reaching top level should take months in an MMO imo.

I'm a magicka based EP DK One-hand and shield tank with off-hand destruction staff DPS.

I work full time at my job. I went from vr1 to vr6,5, +34 CP in 2 weeks with casual play doing wtf I wanted, questing, crafting, exploring, dungeons, even spent hours stealing stuff when justice system arrived and played some PvP.

I'm now in Caldwells Silver, Alik'r desert (vet4) with my vr6

I DON'T EVEN BUILD MAIN DMG? IM A TANK.

Increasing XP gain is not the solution. What ESO need is more content/variety, and as similiar XP gain as possible for any play style (Questing, dungeons, PvP, grinding).

Please DO NOT increase XP gain, I'd rather see it become more balanced.

First of all, you do realize that for many months you could go from V1 to V14 in less than a week by doing craglorn stuff, right? Second, you do realize that it's going to be horribly imbalanced for new players (the game just went BTP this week) to take months and months just for the vet grind when the rest of us got alts through the vet ranks by spending a weekend in crag.

Third, I agree with you, increasing the XP gain is NOT the solution, removing the joke grind of veteran ranks like ZOS plans on doing after console release is the solution. Until this happens though, since they've pretty much agreed that vet ranks are dumb and hence their removal, why should grinding through them be MORE difficult overall than it used to be? Doesn't make sense.

I_killed_Vivec · March 2015

Zheg wrote: »

...

Third, I agree with you, increasing the XP gain is NOT the solution, removing the joke grind of veteran ranks like ZOS plans on doing after console release is the solution. Until this happens though, since they've pretty much agreed that vet ranks are dumb and hence their removal, why should grinding through them be MORE difficult overall than it used to be? Doesn't make sense.

I think that their latest stance on VR is that they aren't dumb and they don't envisage their removal anytime soon.

Indeed 1.6 saw the introduction of VR10 food and drinks, so they are adding to the VR system rather than subtracting from it.

The VR system gives a very convenient mechanism from which they can hang all aspects of the game - zone and mob levelling, crafting materials, the gear you can use, the enchantments you can make, the food, drink and potions you can take. Cadwell's Silver and Gold also provides access to half of the skill points (two thirds if you don't do PvP).

By the way, the "joke grind of veteran ranks" has now been replaced by the grind of CP - which is more of a joke than grinding VR ever was because if you're VR14 you can't even grind at your own level. The VR10 zones are full of VR14s killing everything in sight!

Kragorn · March 2015

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Reaching top level should take months in an MMO imo.

That kind of MMO ceased to be made last century, and quite rightly.

Months to simply reach the level cap was asinine, I suffered it in FFXI in '04 for a couple of years, back then there was no alternative, there is now.

If ZOS really do want to drive ESO into the ground they'll do as you're asking, because few players think taking months simply to be able to engage in end-game activities is acceptable.

jeskah · March 2015

IMHO the question, if the (amount of) veteran level XP is broken or not, not really important. I feel, that with the current veteran system, the lenght of the progression to may level and the lack of choice to gain XP to gain max level is more problematic - at least for me, and for most of my guildies - yeah, anecdotical evidence and everything, buthere we are.

I love - well, like - questing, but about the second or third area of Cadwells silver, i fed up with it. Around the gold areas, i could puke, i did not even finished the main quest there. To be honest, if not for the good ole scorpion, i would have no vet 14 character at all.
And currently im struggling with my (veteran) alt, right now stopped questing (interestingly, with non-vet questing, maybe because it much faster, i have no problem at all), sometimes grinding a bit (not a fan of that either).

And the light at the end of the tunnel (Vet system phasing out) is far, far away... June, if i remember right?
Not a win-win situation.

Avindra · March 2015

murtrem_ESO wrote: »

I'm gaining about 1 1/4 vet levens per zone. Just started Cadwells gold at v6. Even gained 4 champion points doing less than half of the final Cadwells sliver zone last night (enlightened). XP seems spot on.

I started Cadwells Silver at vet1 and finished Cadwells Gold at vet4..

So I am now to go to Craglorn at vet4 and get in groups that spam for vet12 + ????

seaef · March 2015

Is that the "new math"?

Zahne · March 2015

I have been having the same issues, DC characters.

When I got my first vet character through Cadwells Silver and Gold the top rank was 12, I got to Vet 11 and 9/10s at the end of the Rift, finished up by doing Cyrodiil quests.

The other vet characters I have levelled have barely got to Vet 9 by the end of the Rift, currently I am only 10% or so into Vet 4 and almost completed Malabal Tor.

There is a difference, the XP is far less than it used to be and despite doing all quests, all dolmens, all bosses, all dungeons, even completing M'aiq and the Crime pays etc quests I am underlevelled and will have grind the rest of the way, if I can find a grind spot.

I am wondering if its faction related?

Charadras · March 2015

I think the best thing is to cancel that 1000000 xp for every VR level and continue the progressione like you make level 51 - 52 - etc... You can make VR 14 in relax and however want to continue trough silver and gold content for CP and skill point farm.

Erock25 · March 2015

I stopped reading halfway through the first page but I'm leveling through silver as a DC and gaining close to 1.3 vet levels per zone. I haven't paid particular attention to world boss or dolmen xp, but quest turn ins get me anywhere from 15k to 70k xp.

Avindra · March 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

I stopped reading halfway through the first page but I'm leveling through silver as a DC and gaining close to 1.3 vet levels per zone. I haven't paid particular attention to world boss or dolmen xp, but quest turn ins get me anywhere from 15k to 70k xp.

Perhaps it is faction based then, because I was only getting about 6k per quest hand in.

onlinegamer1 · March 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

I stopped reading halfway through the first page but I'm leveling through silver as a DC and gaining close to 1.3 vet levels per zone. I haven't paid particular attention to world boss or dolmen xp, but quest turn ins get me anywhere from 15k to 70k xp.

This is a lie. NO QUEST gives 70k, any zone, any faction, at any time.
100% B.S.

Glycer · March 2015

+1 for OP

Kragorn · March 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

I stopped reading halfway through the first page but I'm leveling through silver as a DC and gaining close to 1.3 vet levels per zone. I haven't paid particular attention to world boss or dolmen xp, but quest turn ins get me anywhere from 15k to 70k xp.

You may have stopped reading but I agree with him.

My NB started Bangkorai VR10 150k short of VR9 and ended 250k short of VR10. She began her VR journey at VR1, has EVERY achievement for all 10 VR zones for soloable content, exploration, devles and Dolmens, has around 35% of world bosses, but not group dungeons.

All that missing content wasn't going to get her to VR10 as I see it (excluding group dungeons as I don't know for sure the XP but it's not stellar any more after the massive nerfs mid-last year).

Given the fact few others were leveling at the time it was a minor miracle she managed as much 'group' stuff as she did, but even if she'd done it all, she was never going even keep pace with the on-level requirements.

So based on your brief comment about what you did and didn't do I don't believe your 1.3 levels per zone, at all, my experience of an apparently similar leveling process differed hugely.

Erock25 · March 2015

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I stopped reading halfway through the first page but I'm leveling through silver as a DC and gaining close to 1.3 vet levels per zone. I haven't paid particular attention to world boss or dolmen xp, but quest turn ins get me anywhere from 15k to 70k xp.

This is a lie. NO QUEST gives 70k, any zone, any faction, at any time.
100% B.S.

Now I'm not sure if my XP given popup is tracking the enlightened value or not, but I can 100% confirm that 70k popped up after turning in a main zone quest that gives a skill point and most quests give me around 30k.

I grinded XP to go from about level 20 to 47ish and then did cold harbour and the smaller/optional beginning zone and also half of the first main zone in silver before 1.6 went live, and I began 1.6 with about 25% into VR1 rank. I'm now just about to hit VR3 and only about 75% done the second main zone in silver. I do every single objective and quest and have also done a bit of cyrodiil and a few writs in between.

Skjoldur · March 2015

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

...

Third, I agree with you, increasing the XP gain is NOT the solution, removing the joke grind of veteran ranks like ZOS plans on doing after console release is the solution. Until this happens though, since they've pretty much agreed that vet ranks are dumb and hence their removal, why should grinding through them be MORE difficult overall than it used to be? Doesn't make sense.

I think that their latest stance on VR is that they aren't dumb and they don't envisage their removal anytime soon.

Indeed 1.6 saw the introduction of VR10 food and drinks, so they are adding to the VR system rather than subtracting from it.

The VR system gives a very convenient mechanism from which they can hang all aspects of the game - zone and mob levelling, crafting materials, the gear you can use, the enchantments you can make, the food, drink and potions you can take. Cadwell's Silver and Gold also provides access to half of the skill points (two thirds if you don't do PvP).

By the way, the "joke grind of veteran ranks" has now been replaced by the grind of CP - which is more of a joke than grinding VR ever was because if you're VR14 you can't even grind at your own level. The VR10 zones are full of VR14s killing everything in sight!

I get the impression that the few good ideas at ZOS get changed so often during development that the result becomes a twisted version of the vision that completely misses the initial intentions. :-/

As for me: I would really level a different class now, but I can not, because I know that I will just stop as soon as I get into the stupid VR grind...

eventide03b14a_ESO · March 2015

Zheg wrote: »

In the attempt to prevent and nerf potential xp exploits for champion point gains, ZOS has actually broken veteran leveling, and I usually hate to use the word broken in cases like this. Here's the math:

It takes 1000000 xp for each veteran level now.

There are 5 zones per alliance, and each zone has 3 dolmens, 6 world bosses, and 6 solo delves. Doing all of these objectives for a single zone nets you ~5000 xp for each. Doing simple math, 3 + 6 + 6 = 15 objectives.

At 5000 xp each, we're looking at 15 * 5000 = 75000 xp to clear an entire zone.

Since there are 5 zones per alliance, if you do all of these objectives, we're looking at 5 * 75000 = 375000 xp.

This is 375000 / 1000000 = 37.5% of a SINGLE veteran level. Previously, doing these objectives for a single alliance would net about 3 full veteran levels.

My guild just did a dolmen/world boss event where we ran around each AD zone killing them for xp, and I gained about 25% of a veteran level.

Craglorn isn't any better, as I've done almost the entire lower + upper main questline today and a few group delves. Completion of each nets you the same ~5k xp, though one of the main quests gave 16k.

Luckily I already have a v14, and two v12s. I absolutely will not be leveling my v1 templar with the current vet xp system in place. This needs to be fixed ASAP, as any new players coming into the game in 1.5 weeks when the game goes BTP will take one look at this horrible grind and probably throw in the towel.

If you want to keep people from grinding too many champion points too quickly, I support that. But you cannot break the veteran leveling system in order to do so.

While I refuse to do all of the quests in an alliance to test this, I think at the current xp rewards, doing every quest, dolmen, world boss, and solo dungeon for an alliance would net you less than 4 vet levels, and the original design was 5 vet levels of content for each alliance (and this did not include doing every single little quest either).

ZOS said that vet levels will not be removed in time for the console release, which many people interpret as they're staying in the game permanently which will run contrary to their previous position on saying they're being removed eventually. I would much rather see veteran levels go away completely as the fix, but since that seems unlikely to happen, you either need to greatly increase the vet xp rewards to be more in line with what they were previously, or you need to significantly lower the XP needed to achieve a veteran level.

You left out:
Questing.
Killing the trash on the way to your objective.
Discovery XP.

There is more XP than simply completely a dolmen or killing a world boss.

Vaelen · March 2015

You all forget that in a couple months, ZOS will be getting rid of Veteran Ranks. After reaching Veteran Rank 1, you should just hop over into Craglorn and start looking for a DSA/Trials/Vet Pledge group, or do delves in Craglorn. That is assuming you have the stats and the gear. VR1 will be instant endgame soon.

Vaelen · March 2015

ZOS will probably nerf all VR14 gear > VR1 stats, and make it so that new dungeons and trials they release start dropping better gear with better stats. Trials gear will probably have the best stats.

Vaelen · March 2015

That or all VR gears will now require CPs to equip, it is only speculative how far the gear nerfs will be to the old VR14 players.

Erock25 · March 2015

Vaelen wrote: »

You all forget that in a couple months, ZOS will be getting rid of Veteran Ranks. After reaching Veteran Rank 1, you should just hop over into Craglorn and start looking for a DSA/Trials/Vet Pledge group, or do delves in Craglorn. That is assuming you have the stats and the gear. VR1 will be instant endgame soon.

@Vaelen Something tells me VR levels aren't going away for at least a year, if ever. Consoles will be released with VR levels in them. Console doesn't release until June something. I think a large portion of the population who starts consoles on day 1 will be getting to VR14 around September (of course some no lifers will be there in 2 weeks). You really think ZOS will go ahead and remove VR levels just as Console people are maxing it out? I think VR levels are here to stay now that they weren't able to remove them before console release.

rfennell_ESO · March 2015

Just recently finished the Caldwell's gold and ended up at vr13 and a half. Did nothing in Cyro, did nothing in craglorn... didn't do any grinding.. didn't do any group dungeons.

With the change coming to cyro mob levels and quest xp they announced it certainly looks like you can get vr14 without setting foot in group dungeons or craglorn and only doing questlines.

It's actually better than it used to be, Vanilla ESO had you hit vr10 about halfway through bangkorai (or equivalent zone) and at about 1.3 you could finish up questline at about vr11.5 to nearly vr12.

One thing to point out is that your daily enlightenment gives you a nice burst of xp per day. If you are leveling a character, you are best served using your enlightenment on your leveling character.

My guess is that if you grind levels casually that bonus xp will get you to vr14 in the regular Caldwell's gold without any grinding, group dungeons, vet dungeons, craglorn or cyrondil.

For reference sake I also "grinded" to about 103 cp doing so, from whatever that max for having a vr14 was. I figured I could grind it out or I could just get another vr14 out of the deal while doing it.

Vaelen · March 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

Vaelen wrote: »

You all forget that in a couple months, ZOS will be getting rid of Veteran Ranks. After reaching Veteran Rank 1, you should just hop over into Craglorn and start looking for a DSA/Trials/Vet Pledge group, or do delves in Craglorn. That is assuming you have the stats and the gear. VR1 will be instant endgame soon.

@Vaelen Something tells me VR levels aren't going away for at least a year, if ever. Consoles will be released with VR levels in them. Console doesn't release until June something. I think a large portion of the population who starts consoles on day 1 will be getting to VR14 around September (of course some no lifers will be there in 2 weeks). You really think ZOS will go ahead and remove VR levels just as Console people are maxing it out? I think VR levels are here to stay now that they weren't able to remove them before console release.

You should read the above posting regarding the math as it currently takes forever to reach VR14 since the exp gains per area were nerfed, if you are a no lifer then according to the math it should take you 3-4 months to hit VR14, pre 1.6 it only took you like 2 weeks. For a casual, you can get VR14 in about 6-8 months, it used to only take casuals about a month to hit VR14 pre-1.6. And unless ZOS changes the exp gains or make it easier to get VR14, then new players hitting Veteran rank will just quit game since they can't do endgame content or pvp unless they hit max VR to equip VR14 gear.

Erock25 · March 2015

Vaelen wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Vaelen wrote: »

You all forget that in a couple months, ZOS will be getting rid of Veteran Ranks. After reaching Veteran Rank 1, you should just hop over into Craglorn and start looking for a DSA/Trials/Vet Pledge group, or do delves in Craglorn. That is assuming you have the stats and the gear. VR1 will be instant endgame soon.

@Vaelen Something tells me VR levels aren't going away for at least a year, if ever. Consoles will be released with VR levels in them. Console doesn't release until June something. I think a large portion of the population who starts consoles on day 1 will be getting to VR14 around September (of course some no lifers will be there in 2 weeks). You really think ZOS will go ahead and remove VR levels just as Console people are maxing it out? I think VR levels are here to stay now that they weren't able to remove them before console release.

You should read the above posting regarding the math as it currently takes forever to reach VR14 since the exp gains per area were nerfed, if you are a no lifer then according to the math it should take you 3-4 months to hit VR14, pre 1.6 it only took you like 2 weeks. For a casual, you can get VR14 in about 6-8 months, it used to only take casuals about a month to hit VR14 pre-1.6. And unless ZOS changes the exp gains or make it easier to get VR14, then new players hitting Veteran rank will just quit game since they can't do endgame content or pvp unless they hit max VR to equip VR14 gear.

So my overall point in my original response to you, that VR levels aren't going away for a LONG LONG time if at all, is even more relevant if it indeed takes that much longer to level up.

Ashtaris · March 2015

I guess I'm one of the few that don't see a problem with XP as it stands now. Right now my AD Nightblade is just finishing up his first zone in Gold (Glenumbra) and is at VR8. A bit overleveled but not too bad. I think ZOS expects you to be at VR12 once you finish with gold, and then you pick up the rest of your levels doing Craglorn.

As with my playstyle, I don't skip any of the quests and complete everything in the zone including Dungeons, Dolmens, Bosses, etc.

Vaelen · March 2015

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Just recently finished the Caldwell's gold and ended up at vr13 and a half. Did nothing in Cyro, did nothing in craglorn... didn't do any grinding.. didn't do any group dungeons.

With the change coming to cyro mob levels and quest xp they announced it certainly looks like you can get vr14 without setting foot in group dungeons or craglorn and only doing questlines.

It's actually better than it used to be, Vanilla ESO had you hit vr10 about halfway through bangkorai (or equivalent zone) and at about 1.3 you could finish up questline at about vr11.5 to nearly vr12.

One thing to point out is that your daily enlightenment gives you a nice burst of xp per day. If you are leveling a character, you are best served using your enlightenment on your leveling character.

My guess is that if you grind levels casually that bonus xp will get you to vr14 in the regular Caldwell's gold without any grinding, group dungeons, vet dungeons, craglorn or cyrondil.

For reference sake I also "grinded" to about 103 cp doing so, from whatever that max for having a vr14 was. I figured I could grind it out or I could just get another vr14 out of the deal while doing it.

Long before 1.6 came out, I remember doing just half of cadwell's silver (I never even got to Cadwell's gold until after VR14) and hitting VR10, then I jumped into Craglorn after it got released and got VR10-14 in a matter of weeks. That's how fast the grind used to be for the old players. Heck, just doing all the dolmens and world bosses in an lower level veteran area gave like 1 VR level per area back then.