A plea to the PvP community (And PvE'ers too)…

timidobserver · March 2015

Some people are not built for competition. Not much to be done about that.

CadenceRowan · March 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

To those of you who are just using this thread to express how much you dislike PvP: You are not contributing in any meaningful way to this conversation and are no different than the noncontributing PvP'ers you dislike.

I thought your original post was well written, but this comment doesn't line up, IMHO. You asked how PvE players could be convinced to PvP - in other words, what is keeping them away - and I think there have been a number of respectful, well thought out replies.

Different people are going to be looking for different things in a game. Personally, I enjoy questing. Sometimes I die in my questing - though certainly a lot less now than I did when I first started playing, and it's usually because I did something stupid - and I can deal with that. I'm not competitive, and I'm not in the game for the killing. I've enjoyed working my way through the maps and increasing my skills as I go.

I went to Cyrodil long enough to do the initial training quests. I thought maybe I might like to try the PvE quests, so I did some reading on them which basically said "Expect to die while you are minding your own business turning in a quest, because some invisible player will be lying in wait, and then you will have a long distance to travel to get back to where you were." That doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me.

A lot of the comments in this thread have basically said the same thing, along with the idea that you can't be effective at both PvP and PvE. Or at least it is difficult to be.

There have been a lot of comments in this thread from nice PvP players, who sound like they want to help the newbies. There have also been a lot of comments from (and about) jerky players.

ESO is a game. I like to devote some of my limited spare time to playing. For fun.

So you tell me; why do I want to PvP? What is fun about it?

Morshire · March 2015

Well, hats off to OP for the post. 90% of any game is the players. And someone making an attempt to make the game better by their actions gets a +1 from me. I play both....more the PVE side now because of the game problems with PVP and the leveling aspects. (Both are clearly ZOS issues) I will also say that I always avoided PVP in other MMO's that I have played, for a host of different reasons. The PVP aspect of the game for ESO is way different and it is fun to engage in. But as a new player, some of the things that almost steered me away from it are:

1) A lot of the LFG requests I made went unanswered. Right away I was hit with the "cliquish" aspect of people. Not being able to get involved with a group made the prospect of PVP seem not worthwhile. Luckily, on my second attempt, I did meet some people that taught me this aspect for grouping and it drew me in rather than push me away. PVP'ers should consider this if you want to attract more people.

2) As a low level, obviously I was getting smashed. We had forward camps then, so it wasn't the huge run back. But just being cannon fodder was not appealing. Again, luckily someone took a few minutes to explain siege weapons and the role they play in PVP. They also gave me one and gave me a quick "how-to" so that I could use them. The group I was in also placed the Siege Shield over me and helped to heal me during the fight. This allowed me to be a part of the attack without feeling like just cannon fodder. It got me my first AP, which allowed me to buy more siege, etc. So for me, as a low level, I was able to participate without being too much at risk, but I also got to feel like I was making a contribution.

3) The group that picked me up also gave me the TS info so that I could actively follow the action in "real - time". A lot of us have probably forgotten how important it is to not be guessing at what the next move is.

Later I joined a guild and my career in PVP began. I know these steps are small overall, and it really only took 3-5 min, during the fight, to do, but they went a long way to retaining my interest. I expected to get owned. I expected to not last against most. But, if all I would have gotten was ignored and constantly ganked, I would not have played ever. There doesn't need to be "hand holding" or hugs, it is PVP and people need to have realistic expectations. But there are things that others can do to make the experience rewarding for new people.

And for the anti-PVP crowd.....This part of the post I don't get. The OP is trying to make a better gaming environment for everyone. Rather than bash his/her efforts, people should just ignore the thread if it doesn't appeal to them. I see post about this "attitude" of "elitist PVP a$$hole$" through pitiful displays of the exact same behavior (They are called "elitist hard core end gamers). People are just as competitive with end game raiding, Trials, leaderboards, etc in the PVE side. No one is going to change human nature, but PVE people have guilds, and helpful players, that enhance the PVE realm. The OP is just trying to do the same for PVP.

Obviously, this game could benefit from more efforts like what the OP is putting forward. Thanks OP, for putting in the effort here and I will do whatever I can to aid you in your efforts. My @name is the same in game on the NA server. Hit me up if I can help, the same goes for any new players. It is a great big little world, and it is easy to get lost. Sometime it makes a crappy game enjoyable just having someone there to say hey to when you log in.

SIDE NOTE: If you have any plans for PVP, the most valuable lesson I learned at the start....feed your horse for speed. Falling behind the pack makes you the first target for gankers. And even if they miss you, the last thing you want is to show up late for the party. You have a minimum of 10 levels before you enter Cyrodiil. Feed that horse every day. It will go a long way towards making the PVP experience more rewarding, and it will save your bacon enough times to make the gold spent the best investment you will make.

leeux · March 2015

I'm a PvEr at first, and I think this is a good thread to share my impression of the current state of PvP (for *me*, these are my subjective view of the current gameplay... I wont be talking about lag or crashes... that stuff always happened to a certain degree.)

To be completely honest with you, at the moment I'm feeling deeply demotivated, with the game, and with my char, specially in PvP.

Now, this is not a crying post, I'm not crying for changes or anything... just sharing my current impressions, and reasons behind why I'm not wanting to participate on PvP anymore.

Being a full magicka build, I went from being able to survive and help/support people in the field, to being perma-stun, constantly CCed and stamina drained, and instantly gibbed to non existence in the current state of the game with no chances to survive.

In 1.5 I had a good K/D ratio (111/20, which is good for a scrub PvEr that only occasionally PvPed) that motivated me to continue to play and contribute to the fight. Now in 1.6, after a full two weeks of being live, and several attempts trying different things, I just managed to get two kills and 20 deaths.

Of course, there's several factors that sum up to produce that... let's see: increased cost of break free, increased cost of roll dodge, increased cost of block, also, being a templar, I have no chance at escaping a fight once it's in effect... and also, the nerf to radiant aura is *very* big game changer for a magicka build... as in there's no other way to get stamina return without it (except potions ofc., and repentance only works when there are corpses nearby...) and last, probably being far behind in CP rank doesn't help either, as I'm not able to "grind" like others (there are people with over 200 CPs already, I only have 75...)

So, all of these together creates a situation that prevents me (and I like to think there are more people in my current situation...) from enjoying the new "state of the game."

The crux of the thing is: I don't want to have to change to a stamina build... is not my thing, I want to remain magicka based healer/support, and be viable. If the only way to be viable as magicka builds is to run in big organized groups, then is not viable to me... I'm not part of big organized group.

I tended to stick around with other people (or, the Zerg... to some,) and that used to work before... now doesn't. As soon as someone targets me, I'm dead in 0.5 seconds, with no change of fighting back at all... that doesn't make for fun gameplay to me.

And for the record, I not wearing full light armor either... I'm currently using 2 Heavy (reinforced chest and legs) / 5 light pieces. And it doesn't change anything

But despite feeling demotivated and tired of the game right now, I'll want to keep on trying... I want to like the "new" game. I hope there's a way to make it work again

Gix · March 2015

I know I'm not contributing to the solution but, really, the only time you can get PvEers to do something remotely linked to PvP is if you do content like WarhammerOnline where PvE contribution helped PvP.

Problem is, you're looking for community related solutions and, really, there isn't much to work with. Merely being able to see Emperors or Ex-Emperors on the map would be a huge help for random folks to contribute however, spies are a pretty big thorn to organized PvP.

Really, PvEers just don't want to fight other players. The issue is not with them nor is it with the PvPers. Leave them be.

Daveheart · March 2015

Runagate is a great ambassador for PvP. Having run with Runagate several times now, I will say that a dedication to training new players is extremely helpful. I'd already received some help from others, but many in the training groups hadn't, and there was definitely noticeable improvement within the first hour.

In addition to helping train PvE focused players in group oriented PvP, he's made an effort to participate in the PvE content. Not everyone who primary focus is PvP needs to try to find a trial group to compete for spots on the PvE leaderboards, but it does make a difference when the PvP crowd is actually welcoming to the PvE folks rather than completely dismissive.

Vahrokh · March 2015

Gix wrote: »

I know I'm not contributing to the solution but, really, the only time you can get PvEers to do something remotely linked to PvP is if you do content like WarhammerOnline where PvE contribution helped PvP.

Problem is, you're looking for community related solutions and, really, there isn't much to work with. Merely being able to see Emperors or Ex-Emperors on the map would be a huge help for random folks to contribute however, spies are a pretty big thorn to organized PvP.

Really, PvEers just don't want to fight other players. The issue is not with them nor is it with the PvPers. Leave them be.

I loved Warhammer Online. Beats ESO 10:1 for me.
It was not exactly because PvE helped PvP, but because it made PvP accessible to everybody.

No need to re-gear / farm endless gear for PvE and then for PvP. Sure, a super min maxer would have got those 1-2 Best in Slot pieces but everybody else were plenty content and plenty succesful without.

No need to change skills. You found your beloved abilities "rotation" / setup? Good, it worked everywhere including in PvP and PvE.

No need to respec. Every instance was PvE with the possibility to be "invaded" by PvP (but only in fair numbers) therefore mobs were made to be fought with PvP specs.

No dire high barrier to entry. Be level 1 and you could enter "battlegrounds" (scenarios in Warhammer-ese). Small PvP areas, you would not need incredible gear nor skill nor to run back for 15 minutes before being able to engage in PvP again.

By playing "battlegrounds" one could learn his class pretty fast and against a lot of opponent setups. Plus battlegrounds were "themed". King of the hill, capture the flag and so on.

Once outdoor you could happily do PvE and... if you felt the "PvP urge", walk 20 meters and be in the PvP portion of the map. No instancing, no waiting for 2 minutes for map to load. Nothing. Just 20 meters and you were in. 20 meters and you were back out.

Plus there used to be realm pride and name plates were WELL visible so you knew who to seek revenge at, next time. There were never ending "books of grudges" that players felt NEEDED be settled. Almost everybody had the Dammaz Kron add on, it had "kills accounting" to show how much and who you killed (or were killed by) with a lot of stats.

PvE quests introduced you to the Warhammer lore and immersed you into the reasons that made factions hate each other.

Years before GW2, Warhammer invented Public Quests - just the OPPOSITE of what ESO does with Craglorn locked group delves. In there you'd play multi-stage fights against waves of NPCs until usually a group boss arrived and dropped a chest with stuff.

Hocofaisan · March 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

If I see anyone with a character in the teens, I'll be sure to get the perfect rotation on them from stealth and completely demoralize them.

I played this game for a whole year damn right my V14 is gonna run you over like a train.

As someone who was an avid PVP player let me offer this:

Every PVP community I have seen eats it self.
You kill off the new bloods,
Destroy each others builds,
Drive off the community members,
and since you killed off the new bloods
the community withers and dies.

If you really want to play PVP, you guys should go to a PVP only game like the Upcomming crowfall.
With its winner take all gameplay I am "sure" it will be super successful.

There is room for a fantasy EvE on the market right?

Dru1076 · March 2015

Darklord_Tiberius wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

An appeal to PvE'ers.
This thread may not seem to be about you but it is. We want you to PvP and experience the same thrills and excitement we do when we play it. What could the PvP community (not ZOS) do for you that would convince you to play more or give cyrodill another try? No, we won't stop using that one ability that kills you, we like that skill - it works well, as you have seen on your kill logs. But we could teach you how to not die from it so much. Or invite you to one of our teamspeak groups and show you the ropes. A lot has changed in Cyrodill in 1.6. What would it take for you to give it another try?

Since this is clearly addressed to me: my answer is 'nothing' I'm afraid.

I have zero desire to fight other players, I have zero desire to have to deal with their often toxic behaviour (many of you enjoy 'ganking' and 'corpse camping' which of course is 'virtual bullying' when viewed sociologically), their 'smack' talk, their seriously over-competitive-to-the-point-of-sociopathic-tendencies view of life.

No, I'm not for a minute saying ALL PVPers are like this, but enough are to make it an area of the game I will not go to: which saddens me, there's a lot of good PVE content in Cyrodiil I'll never get to enjoy because I'm not prepared to suffer PVPers in order to do so.

I did PVP, years ago, for a couple of days and realised I'd rather not play on-line games at all if that was the only option.

I see nothing whatsoever appealing about PVP. I play RPGs for exploration, character progression and story telling, aspects which are entirely absent or at best irrelevant to PVP.

I wish PVP didn't exist in this game, I was really saddened when I learned a long time before launch it was going to be a part of the game. ESO is the poorer for it due to the incessant nerfing ZOS do with major negative effects on the PVE side trying (and failing) to appease the PVP QQ about OP this-build/that-build/the-other-build: Eric's justification for the Negate nerf was appallingly PVP-centric with no thought about it's seriously negative effects on PVE.

Its posts like this we need that LOL button back.

And it's laughing at posts like that which had the LOL button removed. LOL.

Seeing that I say a lot of negative things about PVP, I did want to point out that I have had fun in Cyrodil... Just not as much as elsewhere. And not because I don't like competition...a vr4 is not competitive against a vr10+ no matter what you do, 1 on 1. How is having you butt handed to you over and over any fun?

I have come across some great tips in this thread, and is encouraging me to go try some of them out. Thanks to everyone who's offered advice. Players like you are why I still enjoy ESO as much as I do.

runagate · March 2015

Thanks for the nice comments, dave. I have always, always discouraged massacring lowbies and those new to PvP. I chat across Alliance lines with many, many low-level and inexperiences erstwhile opponents, too. That image above is of a mid-teens AD character setting up siege to HELP my DC group that day attack his own Alliance's outpost when (which was AD, but give him a break - Cyrodiil is baffling unless someone actually tells you the tricks and niceties, particularly the "hardcore" or "elite" standard operating procedures) once he realized we weren't just going to smash him to bits for attacking us harmlessly. I hope this made this
player realize a long-term AvA career would be fun, and not just quit in bafflement and frustration.

The person behind the keyboard matters a lot more than how lucky they've been to stumble into the right guild or how long ago they happened to start playing or how much time they have to commit to getting a stable of max level characters of each class. I say this being the latter.

I've actually talked about these things with PvEers far, far more than I've actually fought since my original guild, EHJ, left for WoW, thinking someday the silent majority of non-toxic personalities might be coaxed into Cyrodiil so they can fully enjoy this game we all love.

Remember, PvE carebears: the Imperial City will open up (someday) and I'd like to help you all experience it, which (especially DC, with by far the lowest population) will require some AvA effort. (Or at least PvDoor...)

Strangely enough, I did every single solo PvE thing early on then moved to Cyrodiil, and some kind and some extremely off-putting PvErs taught me the endgame/group stuff, and now I'm in the most fun and amazingly talented PvE guild, too. I've been very, very lucky in some of the people I've learned from, and want to pass this along as sheer serendipity shouldn't dictate how much of Tamriel one gets to experience.

Thanks again, Yolokin.

Tandor · March 2015

runagate wrote: »

Remember, PvE carebears: the Imperial City will open up (someday) and I'd like to help you all experience it, which (especially DC, with by far the lowest population) will require some AvA effort. (Or at least PvDoor...)

You could start by not calling other players carebears, you probably don't realise how elitist and condescending that comes across to most PvEers, yet you expect to draw them to your cause.

Although the original purpose of this topic was an admirable one, between the OP telling those who he's trying to attract to PvP that they're not wanted in this topic if they don't already like PvP, and others who profess to help PvEers new to PvP insultingly calling them carebears, along with the hardcore PvPers openly licking their lips at the prospect of more fresh meat, I can't help wondering if those asking what it would take to bring PvEers into PvP haven't ended up answering their own question, but not in the way they intended?

Paulhewhewria · March 2015

Tandor wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

Remember, PvE carebears: the Imperial City will open up (someday) and I'd like to help you all experience it, which (especially DC, with by far the lowest population) will require some AvA effort. (Or at least PvDoor...)

You could start by not calling other players carebears, you probably don't realise how elitist and condescending that comes across to most PvEers, yet you expect to draw them to your cause.

Although the original purpose of this topic was an admirable one, between the OP telling those who he's trying to attract to PvP that they're not wanted in this topic if they don't already like PvP, and others who profess to help PvEers new to PvP insultingly calling them carebears, along with the hardcore PvPers openly licking their lips at the prospect of more fresh meat, I can't help wondering if those asking what it would take to bring PvEers into PvP haven't ended up answering their own question, but not in the way they intended?

All I got to say is thats some deep thinking(.claps) For real though I don't think pvp will pick up a a good solid pace till ZOS looks more at it and this http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/158755/incoming-cyrodiil-vet-rank-change-and-more/p1 by them doing this many may come back to pvp for leveling hell I may even.

runagate · March 2015

WarlordGrievous wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

Remember, PvE carebears: the Imperial City will open up (someday) and I'd like to help you all experience it, which (especially DC, with by far the lowest population) will require some AvA effort. (Or at least PvDoor...)

You could start by not calling other players carebears, you probably don't realise how elitist and condescending that comes across to most PvEers, yet you expect to draw them to your cause.

Although the original purpose of this topic was an admirable one, between the OP telling those who he's trying to attract to PvP that they're not wanted in this topic if they don't already like PvP, and others who profess to help PvEers new to PvP insultingly calling them carebears, along with the hardcore PvPers openly licking their lips at the prospect of more fresh meat, I can't help wondering if those asking what it would take to bring PvEers into PvP haven't ended up answering their own question, but not in the way they intended?

All I got to say is thats some deep thinking(.claps) For real though I don't think pvp will pick up a a good solid pace till ZOS looks more at it and this http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/158755/incoming-cyrodiil-vet-rank-change-and-more/p1 by them doing this many may come back to pvp for leveling hell I may even.

Point taken, and I said it simply to be provocative.

I mean it in a self-denigrating and friendly way, however, a leftover in my psyche from way back in the days of Asheron's Call. I myself dye my armor on my characters before every Trial or pledge just to mess with my friends, and love achievements, and collecting weird things (Lire glyphs? Hood of the Voidguide and Voljar's Crescent Dagger?) I threaten to sing The Bangles in TS pretty much every day, and stop to do nice things for people aaaallllllll the time.

I may be a PvPer but I'm a big ole rainbow-hugging carebear, too.

Paulhewhewria · March 2015

runagate wrote: »

WarlordGrievous wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

Remember, PvE carebears: the Imperial City will open up (someday) and I'd like to help you all experience it, which (especially DC, with by far the lowest population) will require some AvA effort. (Or at least PvDoor...)

You could start by not calling other players carebears, you probably don't realise how elitist and condescending that comes across to most PvEers, yet you expect to draw them to your cause.

Although the original purpose of this topic was an admirable one, between the OP telling those who he's trying to attract to PvP that they're not wanted in this topic if they don't already like PvP, and others who profess to help PvEers new to PvP insultingly calling them carebears, along with the hardcore PvPers openly licking their lips at the prospect of more fresh meat, I can't help wondering if those asking what it would take to bring PvEers into PvP haven't ended up answering their own question, but not in the way they intended?

All I got to say is thats some deep thinking(.claps) For real though I don't think pvp will pick up a a good solid pace till ZOS looks more at it and this http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/158755/incoming-cyrodiil-vet-rank-change-and-more/p1 by them doing this many may come back to pvp for leveling hell I may even.

Point taken, and I said it simply to be provocative.

I mean it in a self-denigrating and friendly way, however, a leftover in my psyche from way back in the days of Asheron's Call. I myself dye my armor on my characters before every Trial or pledge just to mess with my friends, and love achievements, and collecting weird things (Lire glyphs? Hood of the Voidguide and Voljar's Crescent Dagger?) I threaten to sing The Bangles in TS pretty much every day, and stop to do nice things for people aaaallllllll the time.

I may be a PvPer but I'm a big ole rainbow-hugging carebear, too.

BTW I just sold the Hood of the Voidguide made 5k for a level 18 item!Money,Money,Money!

Father · March 2015

PVP is terrible due to lag and extreme frame drop. I just can't pvp anymore too much frustration

Morshire · March 2015

runagate wrote: »

....and stop to do nice things for people aaaallllllll the time.

I may be a PvPer but I'm a big ole rainbow-hugging carebear, too.

So 2 quick questions:

1) I am totally new here and was wondering if you could craft me a VR14 LA Nirnhorn set with MAGICKA glyphs. (Just helping a "new" player out right?

)

2) If I had a rainbow on my shirt, where would I need to stand to get said hug?

All seriousness out the window though....I think the biggest challenge facing the OP is not so much just the PVP people, but the PVE player's not having realistic expectations. Helping a new player out in PVP is one thing, but carrying them through every encounter is something else entirely. I have found that about 40% of people I try and help turns into a "honey-do list". It has already jaded me to offering at times. I commend the OP, and the others, for wanting to do something to improve the quality of the gaming experience, I do, but it is a 2 way street. PVE players coming to PVP also have to take the hand up and run with it. They have to be willing to put in some effort as well.

Generally, in all aspects of the game, I have encountered people willing to help me out. I think that the game itself needs work in PVP to make it less problematic. Fixing some of those issues will go a long way. Then the whole "olive branch" being offered would be better received.

(Okay, enough from me. I was just trying to get some "Insightfuls" from you fine players before I called it a day, and maybe a laugh at my expense?

In all seriousness, @Yolokin_Swagonborn - again I just want to say thanks for the effort. I hope there is some positive from this, and people see it for what it is - players helping to make Tamriel better for all.)

Zorvan · March 2015

Gix wrote: »

I know I'm not contributing to the solution but, really, the only time you can get PvEers to do something remotely linked to PvP is if you do content like WarhammerOnline where PvE contribution helped PvP.

Problem is, you're looking for community related solutions and, really, there isn't much to work with. Merely being able to see Emperors or Ex-Emperors on the map would be a huge help for random folks to contribute however, spies are a pretty big thorn to organized PvP.

Really, PvEers just don't want to fight other players. The issue is not with them nor is it with the PvPers. Leave them be.

Say they made the ability for guilds to declare war on each other. Upon declaration of war, there will be completely PvE quests activated that, if completed, will add to the guilds advantage ( for one example, say quests for "scrying stones", that upon each successful completion the guild can see one more player from the guild they're at war with displayed on the map at all times ).

You guys want PvP'ers to warm up to PvP'ers? Then you need to understand you WILL NOT make a strict PvE'er PvP, for anything. So what you need to focus on is what Gix just brought up. How can PvE'ers be beneficial to PvP'ers, in a meaningful way that also allows them to play how they like to play, without having to PvP?

What game mechanics/functionality can be added to allow PvE'ers to strictly PvE while helping PvP'ers?

Taking note that the main requirement would be that those mechanics could not end in a PvE'er being flagged for PvP while doing these quests or whatnot.

runagate · March 2015

Morshire wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

....and stop to do nice things for people aaaallllllll the time.

I may be a PvPer but I'm a big ole rainbow-hugging carebear, too.

So 2 quick questions:

1) I am totally new here and was wondering if you could craft me a VR14 LA Nirnhorn set with MAGICKA glyphs. (Just helping a "new" player out right? )

2) If I had a rainbow on my shirt, where would I need to stand to get said hug?

1) I made someone I'd never met a "congrats on achieving VR 14" present of a greatsword, dagger and sword (blue) and bow (purple) with all purple enchants last night in Steam Room II or whatever it's called (Orgnum's Set)

2) Yes, but there's no hug emote. We can both do the /lookup emote, stand really close to one another, and /e "awkward hug" or ask the vampire ERPers by the fountain in Daggerfall what they do

Morshire · March 2015

runagate wrote: »

Morshire wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

....and stop to do nice things for people aaaallllllll the time.

I may be a PvPer but I'm a big ole rainbow-hugging carebear, too.

So 2 quick questions:

1) I am totally new here and was wondering if you could craft me a VR14 LA Nirnhorn set with MAGICKA glyphs. (Just helping a "new" player out right? )

2) If I had a rainbow on my shirt, where would I need to stand to get said hug?

1) I made someone I'd never met a "congrats on achieving VR 14" present of a greatsword, dagger and sword (blue) and bow (purple) with all purple enchants last night in Steam Room II or whatever it's called (Orgnum's Set)

2) Yes, but there's no hug emote. We can both do the /lookup emote, stand really close to one another, and /e "awkward hug" or ask the vampire ERPers by the fountain in Daggerfall what they do

That was awesome.

Glad no offense was taken. I was just having a laugh while acknowledging what I consider good gamer ethics. It should be noted for all future readers of this post:

The actions that @runagate is discussing is actually the "norm" for this game. Grouping is complicated, due to the game mechanics, but people in general around here are considerate and usually willing to help others out. Whether you PVP or PVE, or both, you will find people willing to help you in your endeavors. Don't be shy, ask around if you need stuff. Have realistic expectations in those requests. And most importantly, be sure to pay it forward if the request ever comes your way.

@runagate - for the record....that whole agreement on your part made me feel REALLLYYY awkward.

But I am in all the same. I will don my rainbow armor and meet you by the fountain. I will easily be recognizable on my unicorn mount.

Samadhi · March 2015

Tandor wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

Remember, PvE carebears: the Imperial City will open up (someday) and I'd like to help you all experience it, which (especially DC, with by far the lowest population) will require some AvA effort. (Or at least PvDoor...)

You could start by not calling other players carebears, you probably don't realise how elitist and condescending that comes across to most PvEers, yet you expect to draw them to your cause.
...

As someone who plays both PvE and PvP, find PvP players use of "carebear" when referring to PvE players to be less problematic than PvE players use of the words "sociopath" or "psychopath" when attempting to disparage PvP players.

Lord_Kreegan · March 2015

I’ve always enjoyed PvP from UO onward, but PvP in ESO is poorly done. This is not DAoC II; and, for that matter, DAoC was not the epitome of PvP systems, no matter how much people want to characterize it as such.

On a personal level, I prefer open world PvP where fights occur as the result of random encounters or unscheduled group fights… basically like we used to see in WoW when it first came out before battlegrounds were implemented. It was simply for fun; there weren’t any stupid leader-boards or titles, so the egomaniacs weren’t encouraged to be ***; there wasn’t anybody attempting to get the perfect PvP-gear because there wasn’t any.

The only motivation for PvP was fun. Guess what’s missing in ESO PvP?

If an opposing level 60 showed up to gank level 20 players, then a level 60 from your own side would show up to counter him… or the level 20’s simply went away and left the *** with nothing to do. It inspired grouping. No, it wasn’t balanced, but people grouped together to compensate for one another’s weaknesses.

Why? It was fun… PvP was simply done for fun. There were no rewards. Genetically mutated *** weren’t encouraged to prove how big of *** they could be. Battlegrounds and leader-boards ruined a lot of what was fun because there are always people in every society who think having their character’s name on some virtual list makes them more important as real human beings.

Get a clue: it doesn’t.

You’re not better looking, more respected, healthier, wealthier, smarter, more knowledgeable, holier, wiser, or more popular as a result of hiding down in your grandmother’s basement eating Cheetos and drinking Mountain Dew for hours on end. Most likely, you’re the opposite.

Get a clue: there is no reason to PvP at all if it isn’t fun.

ESO PvP has all the flaws that make PvP something other than fun rolled into one system design. Get into a battle and Boom! You’re one-shot. The recap says you’ve been hit five times, but it happened all at once and you never had a chance to react. More often than not, you never even saw your opponent(s). Sometimes, someone is multi-boxing and has multiple accounts that triggered an attack from five different characters simultaneously (ever noticed a VR14 attacking with four level 10’s “assisting”?). [This is only one of several hacks in the game.]

That’s not fun at all.

Then you get to resurrect some long distance away because none of your fellows are going to resurrect you… if you even found any other players to work with… and you have to spend an interminable amount of time getting back to the battle… if you ever found a battle… and are quite likely to be ganked enroute, to die again to someone you never see and can’t react to and never get back to the battle you never found.

That’s not fun at all.

A player can look at the map and see – maybe – the yellow flash around a keep or resource center, or crossed sabers indicating a battle. However, when trying to join a group or find out about the battle, nobody answers in chat… and that’s the best case. Often there’s a snarky answer from members of the elitist guilds.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are elitist guilds spamming “Type X for group. Must be VR, must have TS and top gear.” Team Speak? Why? Do we really need Team Speak to zerg? Do we want to listen to some arrogant jerk mentally masturbating in his self-ordained greatness as he tries to dictate tactics? How much bandwidth is needed to type “zerg” in chat? Has the group leader demanding Team Speak ever studied military history? Has he ever been responsible for other people’s lives? Has he ever been shot at?

Does he have a clue? No.

Is he actually doing any real coordination? No.

Why then would we want to listen to his high-pitched girly voice? In most cases, it’s solely a case of the individual massaging his own ego or members of the elite guild yucking it up.

That’s not fun at all.

I like PvP. I’ve always liked PvP. I’ve been a PvP-aficionado since UO. But over time PvP through many games has degraded from a fun environment into what we see now, bringing out the worst of people's behaviors.

And it’s not fun at all.

I don’t blame anyone for not PvP-ing in ESO. It has all the worst aspects of every PvP design out there, primarily because it doesn’t account for human nature. It caters to the worst aspects of human nature.

To the OP: if you want to encourage PvE’ers to come into Cyrodil, police your own environment. If PvP isn’t fun, then there’s no reason for players to do it.

Period.

'Nuff said.

Side issue: RE: lag.

90% of what players refer to as lag isn’t lag. “Lag” per se is network latency. Yes, the net-code for ESO is lacking in many ways and the engine clearly can’t handle large numbers of players in small constrained areas. However, there are a whole lot of other things that affect engine responsiveness and drop frame rate.

When in Cyrodil, turn your graphics down to Medium. The game still looks decent at that level. You’ll be surprised at how much more responsive the client is when it isn’t mashing all those vertices and textures. It doesn’t matter how good your graphics card is, data has to be pushed across the bus – and unless you’re magically running this on an Amiga, the bus used by the CPU for executing code is the same bus pushing all that data for graphics. You hear your disk thrashing during game play? This is a 32-bit game; it doesn’t matter how much memory you have, the game is going to use a lot of virtual memory. That means it’s using your disk… so reduce the amount of graphics data and reduce the disk access (which also uses the bus).

Merlin13KAGL · March 2015

dawnhawk wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

So, you hope many players that support the game you enjoy... leave? Didn't think that one through. Angry money is still money.

As long as they bought it before they leave...technically - the game isn't out anything "money-wise". You'd have to first do a study of whether PVPers especially would subscribe / pay for crowns before making any argument based on that.

@dawnhawk , yes and no. Players are also content. They are the dynamic part that allows PvP to be PvP. It's in the best interest of all involved to have players want to come to and return to Cyrodiil and the rest of the game.

An MMO with no players quickly ceases to be an MMO. There is value beyond the purchase price.

Etaniel wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

So you're saying I shouldn't camp Bruma and gank lvl 10s with my legendary geared V14?

(I know it's rhetorical) @Rook_Master , only if you consider it a fair fight.

There's not much we can do aside from welcoming new players when they enter cyrodil. New players will, and should, get crushed when they start PvP.They will be frustrated. It is up to experienced players to train them, and to turn that frustration into motivation to become better and to start crushing enemies in their turn.

I kill everything in Cyrodil, it's a war, deal with it, and train your newbs.

@Etaniel , and that's why many feel the way they do and don't come back. It's a war in the warzone parts of Cyrodiil. Give the new guy a taste for that part of the game and it will grow on them, they'll get better, and they'll want to come back for more.

Train away, new players are going to get crushed when they start PvP. It's a world of difference when you're expecting it to happen in a XvX resource capture or keep seige. It's a completely different response when you're literally just checking out the place and someone goes for lame, easy AP's.

If that's what you have to do to get your points, I feel sorry for you. It's unnecessary in those situations and it does not make them want to come back. Everyone is not going to enter Cyrodiil for the first (few) times on anyone's terms but their own. If you teach them "Do it this way or just don't do it," guess which one they'll pick.

And 'turning frustration into motivation?,' Yeah, pretty sure that's not usually the way it works. Keep kicking the dog to get it to love you more.

Find a fair fight - there are plenty out there. You're getting AP's, but you're proving nothing and ultimately killing your own cause.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Step 1...organise a cross alliance truce in all PVE towns / delves / dolmens.
Many of these are new players making their 1st tiny steps in Cyrodiil.

Step 2 ...there is no training. No one conducts extensive research in best tactics and then trains the troops at the barracks. We then get all the new players out to be wiped with no training and no experience. lfg.....accept...wiped

Ask not what they can do for you, but what you can do for them.
Perhaps the less selfish ones will return the favour instead of take it for granted.

@Rune_Relic, well put. There needs to be reason to be here other than being someone else's target.

Shadowcaster_9481 wrote: »

I recently tried to PVP for the first time since I started playing last spring. It was kinda fun, but what ultimately made me no longer log in to Cyrodiil was running back after getting killed. It just became so tedious. Being new to PVP, I really suck. I don't mind that, I expect it really since I am so used to fighting predictable tactics of PVE enemies. My problem was, running to a battle, get killed off my horse 3/4 of the way there..4-5 minutes to run back. Run back, charge into the fight, die in five seconds...4-5 minutes of running back again.

I died much less when switching to only ranged damage but then I felt cheesy firing two arrows then backing up.

@Shadowcaster_9481 , this. It's not even that new people mind getting their butts handed to them. @ZOS_GinaBruno , how about allowing PvP ranks up to ______ the ability to rez on site after a cooldown? Couple this with kill exemption for an additional cooldown to keep helpful "It's war" types from getting another quick kill. Perhaps additional scaled mitigation for the first few ranks, degrading down to nothing after Rank 3 or 4? The trip on your turtle horse (or on foot) back to the place of your demise ("Battle's over, thanks though.") is probably one of the top things disuading newcomers from Cyrodiil. Heck, give the new guys a Cyro only Horse buff for the first few ranks too, up to a cap?

Streega wrote: »

Zhoyzu wrote: »

This thread is pointless. the PvE players are just to toxic to reason with.

A great effort poisoned by the crowd it attempted to appeal, the irony is rich.

Who you call toxic, sir? All we say is: please don't kill newbs 20 lvl below you unless they don't attack you, and don't zerg/gank solo players trying to do quests and minding their own business. And what you say? "Oh c'mon, come to Cyro so we can smash you 'cos we bored". Really?

I don't mind getting killed by a great warrior who respect me and gives me fair chance, but being slauthered by blob of bullies with no honor is not what I call fun.

@Zhoyzu spoken in a very toxic manner... It's not automatically one extreme or the other, but it is harder to draw PvE'ers in for the first time. Many are a lot more open to the idea than you seem to think.

(See @Etaniel 's finishing phrase above to see the kind of greeting most PVE'ers get when even thinking about it...) To put it in perspective, if a PVE'er goes to a delve and drops dead every time the walk through the cave door, how often do you think they will keep coming back? "Train them to go to another door" is the kind of answer offered up...

Anyway, well said, @Streega , how hard is it to show yourself and ease down a bit. There is a big difference in letting the other person develop the taste for blood and feel like they're able to get somewhere than to blindside when they pose no threat.

If it's during a seige, it's different - they are with a group, they can be rezzed by their fellow soldiers, they will learn what to be aware of and what to look for.

Capping someone at a quest hub that does not attempt to engage you is just sad and hardly qualifies as PvP, regardless of what the counters say.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

CitraBenzoet_ESO wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

andreasv wrote: »

I guess some kind of unwritten codex would help reducing the frustration somewhat. I had two occasions where a lower level enemy attacked me whilst picking up / returning a quest. After a minute of fighting and me grinding down his/her hp he/she realized that there's now winning and simply stood still. When I saw that the player gave up I simply sheathed my weapon and returned questing.

I know there are players who are happy to keep on attacking you for another minute just to get the kill, but those will not ruin my experience and make me not experience this part of the game.

On a side note: WTH has just happened to the forum?!!?

@andreasv , sheath your weapon.

Universal sign of "I'm not here to fight you."

Now disregard that, and I don't care what level you are, it ends with you on your back.

I thought the universal sign of "i'm not here to fight you" was hold block and jump up and down?

That gesture means "I want to fight you 1v1."

@CitraBenzoet_ESO , I thought that one was "Look at meh, am jumpin' with mah weapon!"

@IcyDeadPeople , really? (No, seriously, is that some duelist's inside code? Come to think of it, I have seen that as the I'm ready - 3 count in videos...)

IcyDeadPeople · March 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

CitraBenzoet_ESO wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

andreasv wrote: »

I guess some kind of unwritten codex would help reducing the frustration somewhat. I had two occasions where a lower level enemy attacked me whilst picking up / returning a quest. After a minute of fighting and me grinding down his/her hp he/she realized that there's now winning and simply stood still. When I saw that the player gave up I simply sheathed my weapon and returned questing.

I know there are players who are happy to keep on attacking you for another minute just to get the kill, but those will not ruin my experience and make me not experience this part of the game.

On a side note: WTH has just happened to the forum?!!?

@andreasv , sheath your weapon.

Universal sign of "I'm not here to fight you."

Now disregard that, and I don't care what level you are, it ends with you on your back.

I thought the universal sign of "i'm not here to fight you" was hold block and jump up and down?

That gesture means "I want to fight you 1v1."

@CitraBenzoet_ESO , I thought that one was "Look at meh, am jumpin' with mah weapon!"

@IcyDeadPeople , really? (No, seriously, is that some duelist's inside code? Come to think of it, I have seen that as the I'm ready - 3 count in videos...)

Yes, once both people are jumping up and down, then you can start the duel and begin buffing yourself, etc.

radiostar · March 2015

The best we can expect is that both sides of the game flourish so ESO stays around and stays fun.

PvP players should have a fast-track into Cyrodiil. Stepping zones leading up to max level pvp. And a way to just do the main storylines and then go back to pvp at levels below max, against other players also at levels below max, so those who really only want to pvp can do so quicker. Then it's a matter of recruiting new players into the game.

I can sympathize with being forced to pve when it's not what you like. But bottom line is, it most likely will require something from Z so new players have a reason to join TU. Not trying to get the pve side players to move over.

golfer.dub17_ESO · March 2015

Saw someone earlier in the thread say he isn't leveled enough to actually fight anyone, but he was taught how to use siege weapons to contribute.

If the only way newbies can contribute is to spam weapons at walls all day, PvP isn't exactly enticing for them.

I've been in that same boat. Spamming weapons at walls and crowds of players, until I eventually realized in the latter case that they weren't actually doing anything, players would just heal the damage right after being hit.

90% of what players refer to as lag isn’t lag. “Lag” per se is network latency

No, it really is lag. I've seen sieges turn into staring contests because neither side can attack the other, with zone chat spammed full of "MEGASERVER LOL".

Remember, PvE carebears:

I'll never understand the PvE vs PvP mentality. Can PvE not also be difficult, require teamwork, and be respectable? Why does someone have to fight other players to be a troo gamer or whatever?

Caroloces · March 2015

You know what would be awesome? Some quests in the regular alliance zones in which you were asked to venture into Cyrodil to achieve some task or collect some items. Perhaps the task would be located in close proximity to the alliance hub, but far enough into Cyrodil to give a taste of the general landscape.

I recall that in one of my first ventures into Cyrodil when I did the first tutorial, I picked up a scouting mission which had me go literally 3/4 of the way across the map to scout some resource. I then spent a fair amount of time trekking across only to be killed by an enemy player as I neared my goal and then being thrown right back to my starting point. Not a particularly strong incentive to continue playing this area. Maybe a gentle mingling of PVE quests with PVP possibilities might be a way to bridge the divide between these two playstyles.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · March 2015

Yolokin, a very well thought out and presented opening post.

I have only been playing ESO for 3 weeks, already I am totally in love with the game world, and despite the game now being B2P I am reasonably certain (99%) that I will continue with my subscription. The game really is very good, and although I am - in the main - a solo PvE player what interaction I have had with the in-game community so far has been very positive.

However, I am afraid I agree with Kragorn. There is nothing you could do that would entice me to play PvP. My reasons my differ slightly though. I used to PvP in competitive leagues in FPS (1st Person Shooter) games, I was never better than just above average, and that genuinely didn't bother me - I did it because I enjoyed it; the guys I played with didn't do it to be top of the leagues, they also did it to have fun, we'd be on TS and often we'd be drinking while playing - it was nothing more than a way to let off steam after a week's work.

Then we all kind of grew tired of FPS and took a look at MMORPGs, the first game we tried was SRO (SIlk Road Online) and it had a very cleverly worked out 3 way PvP system. For a while it was fun, but it was never as fun as the FPS games, and so we explored PvE. By the time SRO was swamped with botters we had decided to move on to WOW and it was there that I saw the two things that have totally put me off MMORPG PvP.

1) The very toxic nature of the PvP community; now, I'm not saying all are like that, I know they are not, 95% of PvPers are good guys and gals, but the 5% that aren't are so toxic and vocal as to mask that, and most MMORPG PvP communities are so starved of numbers they won't do what they really need to do to make PvP appeal to more players - kick out the 5%. Don't team with them, if they are on a team together refuse to play against them, don't give them game-time at all. Until either a PvP community and the game company combined are fully prepared to have a zero tolerance approach to these type of players then the majority of people who currently stay away from PvP will continue to stay away. Most people play games like this for fun, the kind of griefing that all too often comes with PvP is just not fun.

2) Game Balance. I have lost count the number of times my PvE character has been ruined because of "skill balancing" for PvP. I really, really, really, can not tell you how much this bugs me. In most MMORPGs there's usually between 15% and 25% of the playerbase that routinely PvP. Why should 75-85% of the playerbase see their game often adversely affected for that 10-20%? Now, this clearly isn't an issue that the PvP Community has any real control over (other than just accepting that the game should be balanced around the needs of the majority of the playerbase - the PvEers), it is an issue for game companies. IMO when an MMORPG includes PvP the player should have 2 copies of their character (as we often do for test realm participation) one for PvE and one for PvP. And the two should be entirely separate. I can think of no MMORPG that has successfully balanced PvE and PvP. The closest is, perhaps, LOTRO and that is because the PvP element of it is almost divorced from the PvE element.

However, I understand two things. 1) Some MMORPG players want to PvP and so 2) MMORPG companies will see a revenue stream by providing that.

I'll not wish that you and the PvP community weren't here; you are and there is nothing that will change that unless ESO conclude that providing PvP is adversely affecting the overall revenues of the game.

But I genuinely believe that no MMORPG I have so far played has been improved by the inclusion of PvP; and I can think of quite a few that would be improved if PvP were removed.

All The Best

Dazin93 · March 2015

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

I’ve always enjoyed PvP from UO onward, but PvP in ESO is poorly done.

The only motivation for PvP was fun. Guess what’s missing in ESO PvP?

ESO PvP has all the flaws that make PvP something other than fun rolled into one system design. Get into a battle and Boom! You’re one-shot. The recap says you’ve been hit five times, but it happened all at once and you never had a chance to react. More often than not, you never even saw your opponent(s). Sometimes, someone is multi-boxing and has multiple accounts that triggered an attack from five different characters simultaneously (ever noticed a VR14 attacking with four level 10’s “assisting”?). [This is only one of several hacks in the game.]

That’s not fun at all.

Then you get to resurrect some long distance away because none of your fellows are going to resurrect you… if you even found any other players to work with… and you have to spend an interminable amount of time getting back to the battle… if you ever found a battle… and are quite likely to be ganked enroute, to die again to someone you never see and can’t react to and never get back to the battle you never found.

That’s not fun at all.

A player can look at the map and see – maybe – the yellow flash around a keep or resource center, or crossed sabers indicating a battle. However, when trying to join a group or find out about the battle, nobody answers in chat… and that’s the best case. Often there’s a snarky answer from members of the elitist guilds.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are elitist guilds spamming “Type X for group. Must be VR, must have TS and top gear.” Team Speak? Why? Do we really need Team Speak to zerg? Do we want to listen to some arrogant jerk mentally masturbating in his self-ordained greatness as he tries to dictate tactics? How much bandwidth is needed to type “zerg” in chat? Has the group leader demanding Team Speak ever studied military history? Has he ever been responsible for other people’s lives? Has he ever been shot at?

Does he have a clue? No.

Is he actually doing any real coordination? No.

Why then would we want to listen to his high-pitched girly voice? In most cases, it’s solely a case of the individual massaging his own ego or members of the elite guild yucking it up.

That’s not fun at all.

I like PvP. I’ve always liked PvP. I’ve been a PvP-aficionado since UO. But over time PvP through many games has degraded from a fun environment into what we see now, bringing out the worst of people's behaviors.

And it’s not fun at all.

I don’t blame anyone for not PvP-ing in ESO. It has all the worst aspects of every PvP design out there, primarily because it doesn’t account for human nature. It caters to the worst aspects of human nature.

To the OP: if you want to encourage PvE’ers to come into Cyrodil, police your own environment. If PvP isn’t fun, then there’s no reason for players to do it.

Agree with all of this^^

Below is an excerpt from a post I made back in Nov 14 and you can see nothing has changed; it has only gotten worse......

The casual pvp player however, just wants to log and enjoy fighting an hour or two, feel that they are contributing, and gain some sense of satisfaction from player kills, ap gains, or character advancement. Unfortunately, very little in Cryodiil supports casual play or lends to any feelings of satisfaction.

When you also consider the lag and lack of viable builds/skills it's small wonder that the pvp population is decreasing. ESO promised RvR warfare with epic battles and it has been anything but due to the inadequacy of their servers and lack of commitment to the pvp player base.

Hardcore players may like pvp as it is, minus the lag, but it's the casual players that sustain a game long after the hardcore ones rush off to the next best thing.

Etaniel · March 2015

@Merlin13KAGL

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

So you're saying I shouldn't camp Bruma and gank lvl 10s with my legendary geared V14?

(I know it's rhetorical) @Rook_Master , only if you consider it a fair fight.

There's not much we can do aside from welcoming new players when they enter cyrodil. New players will, and should, get crushed when they start PvP.They will be frustrated. It is up to experienced players to train them, and to turn that frustration into motivation to become better and to start crushing enemies in their turn.

I kill everything in Cyrodil, it's a war, deal with it, and train your newbs.

@Etaniel , and that's why many feel the way they do and don't come back. It's a war in the warzone parts of Cyrodiil. Give the new guy a taste for that part of the game and it will grow on them, they'll get better, and they'll want to come back for more.

Train away, new players are going to get crushed when they start PvP. It's a world of difference when you're expecting it to happen in a XvX resource capture or keep seige. It's a completely different response when you're literally just checking out the place and someone goes for lame, easy AP's.

If that's what you have to do to get your points, I feel sorry for you. It's unnecessary in those situations and it does not make them want to come back. Everyone is not going to enter Cyrodiil for the first (few) times on anyone's terms but their own. If you teach them "Do it this way or just don't do it," guess which one they'll pick.

And 'turning frustration into motivation?,' Yeah, pretty sure that's not usually the way it works. Keep kicking the dog to get it to love you more.

Find a fair fight - there are plenty out there. You're getting AP's, but you're proving nothing and ultimately killing your own cause.

I never said anything about camping someone in quest hubs. You make it sound like i'm standing behind a delve farming a poor lvl 10? What i meant is that if i cross path with someone from another faction, i will engage them, no matter the level. But i will not stay there and camp the place until he/she returns, that would be lame indeed.

'turning frustration into motivation' is actually the way it works. Why would you train yourself to get more skills/better build etc if you don't need to? You kinda need that state of mind to perform ok in PvP imo.

I don't greet PVErs in a toxic manner, in fact i don't treat players as PvErs period.
If there's a noob in my faction that needs advice, i will gladly give it to him/her. I won't train him to go to another door like you said, i'll train him to beat the heck out of the guy camping him.

Merlin13KAGL · March 2015

Etaniel wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

So you're saying I shouldn't camp Bruma and gank lvl 10s with my legendary geared V14?

(I know it's rhetorical) @Rook_Master , only if you consider it a fair fight.

There's not much we can do aside from welcoming new players when they enter cyrodil. New players will, and should, get crushed when they start PvP.They will be frustrated. It is up to experienced players to train them, and to turn that frustration into motivation to become better and to start crushing enemies in their turn.

I kill everything in Cyrodil, it's a war, deal with it, and train your newbs.

@Etaniel , and that's why many feel the way they do and don't come back. It's a war in the warzone parts of Cyrodiil. Give the new guy a taste for that part of the game and it will grow on them, they'll get better, and they'll want to come back for more.

Train away, new players are going to get crushed when they start PvP. It's a world of difference when you're expecting it to happen in a XvX resource capture or keep seige. It's a completely different response when you're literally just checking out the place and someone goes for lame, easy AP's.

If that's what you have to do to get your points, I feel sorry for you. It's unnecessary in those situations and it does not make them want to come back. Everyone is not going to enter Cyrodiil for the first (few) times on anyone's terms but their own. If you teach them "Do it this way or just don't do it," guess which one they'll pick.

And 'turning frustration into motivation?,' Yeah, pretty sure that's not usually the way it works. Keep kicking the dog to get it to love you more.

Find a fair fight - there are plenty out there. You're getting AP's, but you're proving nothing and ultimately killing your own cause.

I never said anything about camping someone in quest hubs. You make it sound like i'm standing behind a delve farming a poor lvl 10? What i meant is that if i cross path with someone from another faction, i will engage them, no matter the level. But i will not stay there and camp the place until he/she returns, that would be lame indeed.

'turning frustration into motivation' is actually the way it works. Why would you train yourself to get more skills/better build etc if you don't need to? You kinda need that state of mind to perform ok in PvP imo.

I don't greet PVErs in a toxic manner, in fact i don't treat players as PvErs period.
If there's a noob in my faction that needs advice, i will gladly give it to him/her. I won't train him to go to another door like you said, i'll train him to beat the heck out of the guy camping him.

@Etaniel , then we misunderstood each other. My apologies.

The post you quoted was from a previous response regarding just that type of thing (the Level 10 quest area camp).

I'm glad to hear to have some of your own rules of engagement. Agreed if you are in the wilds, expect to be encountered.

Being ganked and the painfully long return distance are usually two of the reasons I hear newer people become frustrated. A third is not really knowing where to start. (The tutorial is sorely lacking that way.)

I'm glad to hear you offer to help anyone learn. It's that sort of thing that helps the circumstance, even if you do end up being on opposing sides at some point in the future.

Agreed, there is a certain amount of "WTH just happened?" that has to take place in the beginning for someone to want to determine how to prevent it in the future.