Lore Wise, what is the strongest Alliance?

Arandear · March 2015

Hey all, so it's been bugging me, Lore Wise, which was the strongest Alliance In the time of ESO? And for that matter in the Lore Books and so fourth who eventually won the war in Cyrodiil, if indeed it is even recorded or written anywhere?

Thanks in advance!

Runefell · March 2015

Well, Ebonheart completely dissolves. All three races hate each other and constantly try to kill/enslave one another. Aldmeri technically is the strongest, as they resurge later in time, but they turn all evil. And Daggerfall, really, is the closest thing to what the empire eventually becomes, though they don't win, and dissolve after Emeric..

I'm pretty sure after this timeline is when Tiber Septim comes around and gets the empire going. He's rumored to be a Nord (who's original name was Talos), but was adopted by the Imperials as one of their own and renamed with an Imperial name, so technically it's the Imperials that won, not any of the alliances. Shoddycast on Youtube has an excellent series on Elder Scrolls lore that's worth a watch.

Anvos · March 2015

Well the pact is the only alliance known to have made an attempt to destroy the primary anchor and the cutscene seems to imply they came close and might have won had the aldmeri witch just teleported away and not sabatoged things.

History pretty much says everybody loses though, since while Aldmeri was the last alliance standing they ended up defeated by a union of the humans from the other factions.

From how things feel from the stories it seems like the Pact and the Dominion are about equal, while the Covenant comes off as overstreached keeping up with the other two.

Dekkameron · March 2015

Runefell wrote: »

Well, Ebonheart completely dissolves. All three races hate each other and constantly try to kill/enslave one another. Aldmeri technically is the strongest, as they resurge later in time, but they turn all evil. And Daggerfall, really, is the closest thing to what the empire eventually becomes, though they don't win, and dissolve after Emeric..

I'm pretty sure after this timeline is when Tiber Septim comes around and gets the empire going. He's rumored to be a Nord (who's original name was Talos), but was adopted by the Imperials as one of their own and renamed with an Imperial name, so technically it's the Imperials that won, not any of the alliances. Shoddycast on Youtube has an excellent series on Elder Scrolls lore that's worth a watch.

The Altmer in the fourth age were not evil, just that they forbade worshiping of false gods. Especially false gods of which worship could cause the destruction of Tamriel.

Also Tiber was Breton born in Alcaire, High Rock.

Aldmeri Dominion are the most powerful as even after some possessed mass murderer had voices in his head to attack everyone. The denizens of the Dominion stayed together. Unlike the other alliances who went back to their old game of hating each other.

Panda244 · March 2015

The Aldmeri Dominion is technically the "strongest" as they have a great military, a great navy, great politics and support for one another, the Ebonheart Pact is a legitimate joke, they all want to stab each other, and the Covenant, is either on par with the Aldmeri Dominion, or slightly below it, as far as political and economical strength goes....

Technically. Technically. The Imperials still win this war, but they cheated with the Numidium and what not

But aye, the Aldmeri Dominion is definitely the strongest, sturdiest, Alliance there is. Having the largest navy, means they can easily bring ships up the river leading into Cyrodiil and resupply along that, as well as at Bravil, they have the entire military of the Khajiit, Bosmer, and Altmer, where as the Daggerfall Covenant has mostly Redguards and Orcs, since the Bretons were really built around trade, not warfare, the Nords and Dunmers probably bring the most to the table when you look at the Ebonheart Pact, but undeniably the Aldmeri Dominion would be. Lorewise, the strongest alliance.

Arandear · March 2015

Thanks for the replies they all made for a great read, looking forward to more! I did not know the Imperials won at all as Panda244 said, I thought from what ESO showed me the seemed completely broken haha!

Keep it coming!

Panda244 · March 2015

Arandear wrote: »

Thanks for the replies they all made for a great read, looking forward to more! I did not know the Imperials won at all as Panda244 said, I thought from what ESO showed me the seemed completely broken haha!

Keep it coming!

Tiber Septim

This link, if you want to read it, explains how the Imperials won per say... Technically we don't really know who won this war, but we do know that 300 years later (After this game takes place.) The Imperials had regained control of the Imperial City and started the Septim Dynasty which lasted until 3E 433. (3rd Era, Year 433.) The game takes place in 2E 582. (2nd Era, Year 582.)

So to be honest, none of the three Alliances won the war, but they didn't really lose the war either, up until Tiber Septim regained control of the region and launched the conquering of Tamriel no one really controlled anything except what they had already started with, Cyrodiil basically became a barbaric region filled with different groups of people vying for control of the throne.

Kuro1n · March 2015

Never thought I'd enjoy reading ESO lore... Books I love but game lore? Well, nice.

Cody · March 2015

I personally never cared; they all dissolve anyway after, when, or before, Tiber Septim takes over; so none of the three alliances win in the end.

I suppose the dominion seeing as how they are the most unified, but again all three get beat in the end, so its not that big of a deal in my opinion.

jeevin · March 2015

Dominion is strongest by law.

WhiskyBob · March 2015

Well:
Aldmeri Dominion is the only one that will survive the test of time (it exists f.e. in Skyrim)
Ebonheart Pact however gave us Talos.

Talos>Thalmor *** anytiem.

Panda244 · March 2015

WhiskyBob wrote: »

Well:
Aldmeri Dominion is the only one that will survive the test of time (it exists f.e. in Skyrim)
Ebonheart Pact however gave us Talos.

Talos>Thalmor *** anytiem.

@WhiskyBob Talos is a Breton. I know, I know. I ruined your life. But it's true.

starkerealm · March 2015

WhiskyBob wrote: »

Well:
Aldmeri Dominion is the only one that will survive the test of time (it exists f.e. in Skyrim)

It actually doesn't though. At the very latest, the Aldmeri Dominion gets crushed at the start of the third era. Possibly much earlier.

After the Oblivion Crisis at the end of the third era, a new group emerges, brands itself the Thalmor and sets about building a new Dominion. But, it's not the same organization, and there's no continuity between them.

So, the Aldmeri Dominion in the fourth era (The one you see when playing Skyrim) has no real connection with the Second Era Dominion. They borrowed the name of something grand in order to mask their own racism.

Aeratus · March 2015

Lorewise, Aldmeri Dominion is the strongest. As mentioned in an earlier comment, they are the most unified. The Dominion is the only faction where the top leaders of all three races actually meet up. Their leader is also charismatic, and is well supported by the Silvanar and Mane, both of whom were helped by Ayrenn. Compare that to the Pact, where the Dunmer and Argonians only send military representatives, rather than their leaders (you think Vivec or even Almalexia really care about Jorunn?).

On top of that, you have Altmer sophistication and the Bosmer numbers, an effective combination of two races that can work with each other. The Khajiit are probably the most odd one out, since they do not have a standing army and have been hit hard by the Khanaten flu. However, the Mane supports Ayrenn, and I would think that some of the strongest warrior of any race would be the larger bipedal Khajiit warriors (of the Cathay-Raht breed, for example).

In terms of the sum total of the faction's individual races, Ebonheart Pact would come out on top. The Nord and the Dunmer are probably two of the most warlike races. Even in Tiber Septim's time, Vivec and the Dunmer were highly feared by the Imperials and were considered the most fanatical opponents in Tamriel. In this time period, the Tribunal would probably be unbeatable if they took their armies to the field. You're talking about Vivec, who once banished Azura from Morrowind with a flick of a finger.

But the Ebonheart Pact isn't a cohesive military alliance. In lore material, when the Dunmer at war, whether against the Kamal or the Imperials, they are almost always lead by Almalexia or Vivec, but neither of them show any real interest in this war (they're dealing with Dagoth Ur, I'd think). If the Tribunal are not personally invested, I don't see how the Dunmer on the whole would be, especially given that the Dunmer are generally isolationist in attitude. Moreover, the Pact is the only alliance where the leader does not have sole authority, but is supported by a "moot." Given their lack of cohesion, the Pact looks weaker than the Aldmeri Dominion.

As for the Daggerfall Covenant, well their armies have to march through this huge no-man's land (Craglorn). Doesn't seem the best in terms of war logistics. Unlike the Altmer, the Bretons are is not a unified nation, but more like a collection of city-states, and the Orcs are scattered around rather than a unified and well-organized force. Moreover, their leader is weak.

WhiskyBob · March 2015

Panda244 wrote: »

WhiskyBob wrote: »

Well:
Aldmeri Dominion is the only one that will survive the test of time (it exists f.e. in Skyrim)
Ebonheart Pact however gave us Talos.

Talos>Thalmor *** anytiem.

@WhiskyBob Talos is a Breton. I know, I know. I ruined your life. But it's true.

Raised in Skyrim tho. As for race he might be: Breton or Atmoran or Nord depends on who are you asking but it doesnt matter. He was raised among Nords.

starkerealm · March 2015

Aeratus wrote: »

Lorewise, Aldmeri Dominion is the strongest. As mentioned in an earlier comment, they are the most unified. The Dominion is the only faction where the top leaders of all three races actually meet up. Their leader is also charismatic, and is well supported by the Silvanar and Mane, both of whom were helped by Ayrenn. Compare that to the Pact, where the Dunmer and Argonians only send military representatives, rather than their leaders (you think Vivec or even Almalexia really care about Jorunn?).

On top of that, you have Altmer sophistication and the Bosmer numbers, an effective combination of two races that can work with each other. The Khajiit are probably the most odd one out, since they do not have a standing army and have been hit hard by the Khanaten flu. However, the Mane supports Ayrenn, and I would think that some of the strongest warrior of any race would be the larger bipedal Khajiit warriors (of the Cathay-Raht breed, for example).

In terms of the sum total of the faction's individual races, Ebonheart Pact would come out on top. The Nord and the Dunmer are probably two of the most warlike races. Even in Tiber Septim's time, Vivec and the Dunmer were highly feared by the Imperials and were considered the most fanatical opponents in Tamriel. In this time period, the Tribunal would probably be unbeatable if they took their armies to the field. You're talking about Vivec, who banished Azura from Morrowind with a flick of a finger.

But the Ebonheart Pact isn't a fully vested military alliance. The Dunmer are almost always lead by Almalexia or Vivec, but they have almost no interest in this war (they're dealing with Dagoth, I'd think). They do not even bother to meet with Jorunn. Moreover, the Pact is the only alliance where the leader does not have sole authority, but is supported by a "moot." Given their lack of cohesion, the Pact looks weaker than the Aldmeri Dominion.

As for the Daggerfall Covenant, well their armies have to march through this huge no-man's land (Craglorn). Doesn't seem the best in terms of war logistics. Unlike the Altmer, the Bretons are is not a unified nation, but more like a collection of city-states, and the Orcs are scattered around rather than a unified and well-organized force. Moreover, their leader is weak.

I'm not even convinced Almalexia cares about anything other than herself. Even in the second era.

I could have sworn the Khajiit did maintain standing forces, though they may have been decimated by the Khanaten flu just before soulburst. (My recollection of the chronology isn't quite that good.)

As with the Bretons, the Dunmer aren't fully allied. In fact, the Dunmer are the only race (so far as I can remember) that aren't fully aligned with their alliance. House Telvanni refused to join. Though they are far more coordinated than the kingdoms of High Rock.

Also, I could be remembering this wrong, but I seem to recall that Morrowind was the last province Tiber Septum took. Even after the supposedly impossible to invade Black Marsh.

cyqa · March 2015

I'm really enjoying reading about the lore in this thread. Thanks @Panda244 and @Aeratus !

Gidorick · March 2015

yea... we're all fighting a loosing battle with fleeting victories. Tiber Septim will some day come around and pretty much put everyone in their place.

and @Dekkameron There is disagreement as to Tiber Septim's birthplace. Some believe he was born in Atmora as Talos.

What you speak of is from the book "The Arcturian Heresy". According to that lore, Talos' original name was Hjalti Early-Beard.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/arcturian-heresy

I'm going to have to do more research on this because Tiber Septim being from Atmora seems like a myth.

Wing · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Also, I could be remembering this wrong, but I seem to recall that Morrowind was the last province Tiber Septum took. Even after the supposedly impossible to invade Black Marsh.

actually morrowind was the first mer province to be taken, though no fights ever took place, as vivec and talos made a deal, let morrowind maintain its traditions and slavery, and they would not only join the empire but handed over the numidum as well. talos accepted.

summerset was the last province to be taken, taken by force, and then only taken because they used the numidium.

and I think deals were also made with black marsh and no fights took place.

Panda244 · March 2015

Wing wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Also, I could be remembering this wrong, but I seem to recall that Morrowind was the last province Tiber Septum took. Even after the supposedly impossible to invade Black Marsh.

actually morrowind was the first mer province to be taken, though no fights ever took place, as vivec and talos made a deal, let morrowind maintain its traditions and slavery, and they would not only join the empire but handed over the numidum as well. talos accepted.

summerset was the last province to be taken, taken by force, and then only taken because they used the numidium.

and I think deals were also made with black marsh and no fights took place.

Aye, Summerset was the last to be taken because Tiber cheated, and the Altmer refused to back down, as they always do.

Mikoto · March 2015

Panda244 wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Also, I could be remembering this wrong, but I seem to recall that Morrowind was the last province Tiber Septum took. Even after the supposedly impossible to invade Black Marsh.

actually morrowind was the first mer province to be taken, though no fights ever took place, as vivec and talos made a deal, let morrowind maintain its traditions and slavery, and they would not only join the empire but handed over the numidum as well. talos accepted.

summerset was the last province to be taken, taken by force, and then only taken because they used the numidium.

and I think deals were also made with black marsh and no fights took place.

Aye, Summerset was the last to be taken because Tiber cheated, and the Altmer refused to back down, as they always do.

No such thing as cheating in war. Either you win or you die.

Anvos · March 2015

To be fair Telvani while not in support of the alliance aren't really working against the alliance, so their still contributing to dunmer society, albeit not the war effort or accepting nords and argonians can't be enslaved. Also lore really seems to hint that most of the Dunmeri military is concentrated in House Redoran and House Indoril.

Not to mention that while the Tribunal might not be fully invested in the war the dunmer military is a representative of the House Council which is the political leadership of the dunmer.

As for division I would say the most divided race is obviously the Orcs, hence why Wrothgar is a neutral adventure zone.

BBSooner · March 2015

The entire point is that all 3 alliances (and everybody who isn't led by Tiber Septim) during the Interregnum fight to a stalemate, otherwise the Interregnum wouldn't exist.

So despite posturing on "which alliance I like more so I'm going to rationalize their superiority", the simple conclusion is that they are all - more or less - equally matched ...

... besides the pact. They're clearly the strongest.

BBSooner · March 2015

Panda244 wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Also, I could be remembering this wrong, but I seem to recall that Morrowind was the last province Tiber Septum took. Even after the supposedly impossible to invade Black Marsh.

actually morrowind was the first mer province to be taken, though no fights ever took place, as vivec and talos made a deal, let morrowind maintain its traditions and slavery, and they would not only join the empire but handed over the numidum as well. talos accepted.

summerset was the last province to be taken, taken by force, and then only taken because they used the numidium.

and I think deals were also made with black marsh and no fights took place.

Aye, Summerset was the last to be taken because Tiber cheated, and the Altmer refused to back down, as they always do.

Who says he couldn't have sacked Summerset without the Numidium?

Attacking summerset last also makes the most sense regardless of strength. Packing up your armies in ships and sailing them away with provinces on the mainland still wanting to fight would have been a poor decision.

It's less "saving the hardest for last" and more "protect your rear before you sail your armies away". And of course that's moot since he picked up the Numidium and decided to put it to use.

BBSooner · March 2015

Wing wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Also, I could be remembering this wrong, but I seem to recall that Morrowind was the last province Tiber Septum took. Even after the supposedly impossible to invade Black Marsh.

actually morrowind was the first mer province to be taken, though no fights ever took place, as vivec and talos made a deal, let morrowind maintain its traditions and slavery, and they would not only join the empire but handed over the numidum as well. talos accepted.

summerset was the last province to be taken, taken by force, and then only taken because they used the numidium.

and I think deals were also made with black marsh and no fights took place.

Tiber burned Mournhold to the ground. It was only after this that Vivec offered a surrender and got favorable terms.

onlinegamer1 · March 2015

The Rebel Alliance.

It had Yoda!

TheTwistedRune · March 2015

Hard to answer with any certainty. Most HATED though? Easy. Aldmeri Dominion.

BBSooner · March 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

yea... we're all fighting a loosing battle with fleeting victories. Tiber Septim will some day come around and pretty much put everyone in their place.

and @Dekkameron There is disagreement as to Tiber Septim's birthplace. Some believe he was born in Atmora as Talos.

What you speak of is from the book "The Arcturian Heresy". According to that lore, Talos' original name was Hjalti Early-Beard.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/arcturian-heresy

I'm going to have to do more research on this because Tiber Septim being from Atmora seems like a myth.

Most likely, imo, he was just a nord born in Alcaire and part of his myth was that he came from Atmora, sort of a "Nord among Nords" thing.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2015

Panda244 wrote: »

The Aldmeri Dominion is technically the "strongest" as they have a great military, a great navy, great politics and support for one another, the Ebonheart Pact is a legitimate joke, they all want to stab each other, and the Covenant, is either on par with the Aldmeri Dominion, or slightly below it, as far as political and economical strength goes....

Technically. Technically. The Imperials still win this war, but they cheated with the Numidium and what not

But aye, the Aldmeri Dominion is definitely the strongest, sturdiest, Alliance there is. Having the largest navy, means they can easily bring ships up the river leading into Cyrodiil and resupply along that, as well as at Bravil, they have the entire military of the Khajiit, Bosmer, and Altmer, where as the Daggerfall Covenant has mostly Redguards and Orcs, since the Bretons were really built around trade, not warfare, the Nords and Dunmers probably bring the most to the table when you look at the Ebonheart Pact, but undeniably the Aldmeri Dominion would be. Lorewise, the strongest alliance.

I'm not sure the AD is the strongest. They are the faction I chose to play for but I'm not convinced they are the most powerful. The Altmer have some of the strongest mages in all of Tamriel and innate talent, but they also are extremely snooty and irritating to be around. The irritation they cause and the mistreatment they give not only to outsiders but other members of the Dominion are a key problem throughout the entire story. While Ayrenn represents the good examples of what Altmer can be, they are often not like this. I have to say I think what she stands for is excellent though and when it comes to the power of ideas I think perhaps hers are the strongest. Unfortunately the Elves have lost a lot of standing with the other races after their brutal behavior in past eras, and the haughty attitude of the Altmer does nothing for improving outside perceptions. I think this is a large reason why the races of the Pact and the Covenant are so vehement. None of them want the control of the White-Gold Tower in the hands of the outsiders.

I think your suggestion that Bretons are really 'about trade not warfare' is a little bit preposterous. Who is to say they are not united? Bretons know how to hold onto power, and I get the sense that Emeric is a shrewd old devil. Power through coin, magic, and force. I think the Bretons of High Rock are a force to be reckoned with. The only odd duck in their alliance is the Orcimer and they have been offered Orsinium again, which would add a great deal of legitimacy to their people. In all fairness, I think the Daggerfall Covenant from a thematic point of view has some of the best traits for conquering. Their terrain is hard to attack, they are well united in the desire to keep the other forces out, they are well funded and well armed.

The Pact on the other hand is probably the weakest faction in large part because the three races have a long and bloody history of warring/enslaving one another. While the Dunmer have the powerful Tribunal and House Telvanni, they are both fairly aloof to the whole thing, and likely more interested in keeping Coldharbor out. I see this faction caving in on itself eventually, potentially with the Nords joining with the Bretons and the Argonians eventually siding with the Dominion since they have a lot more in common with their Khajiit and Bosmer neighbors.

I realize these are just my opinions, but I really wouldn't assume lorewise that the Daggerfall Covenant is weak at all. Realize that it is run by a mostly human empire, and I think this would have greater traction with the Imperials and Nords in the long term, particularly given the Elven history of mistreatment of essentially all the races. The Ayleids went a long way toward offending everyone in their service to the Daedra, and I'm fairly certain it isn't lost on people that Mannimarco is an Altmer mage.

Darlgon · March 2015

Lorewise? Imperial faction. See Oblivion, from in the future from ESO.

Panda244 · March 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

The Aldmeri Dominion is technically the "strongest" as they have a great military, a great navy, great politics and support for one another, the Ebonheart Pact is a legitimate joke, they all want to stab each other, and the Covenant, is either on par with the Aldmeri Dominion, or slightly below it, as far as political and economical strength goes....

Technically. Technically. The Imperials still win this war, but they cheated with the Numidium and what not

But aye, the Aldmeri Dominion is definitely the strongest, sturdiest, Alliance there is. Having the largest navy, means they can easily bring ships up the river leading into Cyrodiil and resupply along that, as well as at Bravil, they have the entire military of the Khajiit, Bosmer, and Altmer, where as the Daggerfall Covenant has mostly Redguards and Orcs, since the Bretons were really built around trade, not warfare, the Nords and Dunmers probably bring the most to the table when you look at the Ebonheart Pact, but undeniably the Aldmeri Dominion would be. Lorewise, the strongest alliance.

I'm not sure the AD is the strongest. They are the faction I chose to play for but I'm not convinced they are the most powerful. The Altmer have some of the strongest mages in all of Tamriel and innate talent, but they also are extremely snooty and irritating to be around. The irritation they cause and the mistreatment they give not only to outsiders but other members of the Dominion are a key problem throughout the entire story. While Ayrenn represents the good examples of what Altmer can be, they are often not like this. I have to say I think what she stands for is excellent though and when it comes to the power of ideas I think perhaps hers are the strongest. Unfortunately the Elves have lost a lot of standing with the other races after their brutal behavior in past eras, and the haughty attitude of the Altmer does nothing for improving outside perceptions. I think this is a large reason why the races of the Pact and the Covenant are so vehement. None of them want the control of the White-Gold Tower in the hands of the outsiders.

I think your suggestion that Bretons are really 'about trade not warfare' is a little bit preposterous. Who is to say they are not united? Bretons know how to hold onto power, and I get the sense that Emeric is a shrewd old devil. Power through coin, magic, and force. I think the Bretons of High Rock are a force to be reckoned with. The only odd duck in their alliance is the Orcimer and they have been offered Orsinium again, which would add a great deal of legitimacy to their people. In all fairness, I think the Daggerfall Covenant from a thematic point of view has some of the best traits for conquering. Their terrain is hard to attack, they are well united in the desire to keep the other forces out, they are well funded and well armed.

The Pact on the other hand is probably the weakest faction in large part because the three races have a long and bloody history of warring/enslaving one another. While the Dunmer have the powerful Tribunal and House Telvanni, they are both fairly aloof to the whole thing, and likely more interested in keeping Coldharbor out. I see this faction caving in on itself eventually, potentially with the Nords joining with the Bretons and the Argonians eventually siding with the Dominion since they have a lot more in common with their Khajiit and Bosmer neighbors.

I realize these are just my opinions, but I really wouldn't assume lorewise that the Daggerfall Covenant is weak at all. Realize that it is run by a mostly human empire, and I think this would have greater traction with the Imperials and Nords in the long term, particularly given the Elven history of mistreatment of essentially all the races. The Ayleids went a long way toward offending everyone in their service to the Daedra, and I'm fairly certain it isn't lost on people that Mannimarco is an Altmer mage.

What other races think of the Altmer has nothing to do with their strength, the Khajiit are well known for being great fighters, and the Bosmer field their archers, the Altmeri navy allows for easy resupply both in, and out of Cyrodiil. They're definitely the strongest tactically, and as someone pointed out above, there the only alliance were the three leaders meet on a regular basis, the Daggerfall Covenant is held together by a marriage and a treaty, a treaty that's ignored by a lot of the Orcs... Whereas the Aldmeri Dominion is held together because they all relatively like one another and can work well, and then as you pointed out, the Pact is the weakest, hands down. They might field a large, strong, military... But the brains behind that military aren't that great, and the Pact isn't very politically solid.

If we went with three easy terms, who was strongest, economically, politically, and militarily.
Aldmeri Dominion - Political/Militarily
Daggerfall Covenant - Economically/Militarily
Pact - Militarily

So at least DC and AD have two things going for them, but the Covenant could be broken apart with a simple assassination of Emeric's wife... Or Emeric... Or King Fahara'jad.