ESO World PvP (Cyrodiil) vs. WoW World PvP (Ashran)

cozmon3c_ESO · February 2015

The issue with the lag is, it only takes a group of 24 people on ep to ball up, spam aoe and heals, to bring the server to its knees (you know who you are and your not helping the health of the game). Fix this gameplay mechanic some how, whether its add collision or more abilities to take out grouped players or whatever, it needs to be fixed before Tamriel Unlimited launches or you will see the droves that come in, turn tail and go out in droves.

Gix · February 2015

blackweb wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Gix wrote: »

blackweb wrote: »

How can WoW's 10+ year old game engine possibly be superior to ESOs for large-scale pvp?

Probably because WoW's original conception was back when Dial-Up was still a thing and the combat mechanics reflect that. There's very little data that are being sent from server to clients.

That's not to say that WoW never lagged, but now broadband caught up to a point where the game can finally run smoothly.

Also, WoW's engine received many, many upgrades since. That's like saying that the Unreal 4 engine is as old as the original Unreal single-player game (anyone remembers that game? pre-UnrealTournament).

If I may step in here.

The reason why we players had so horrible lag at IF, Southshore or TM in Vanilla wasn't the "connection", but our own PCs. If you moved from 4 GB Ram to 8 GB Ram, it was a massive difference. If you swapped the Athlon Dual Core for a Intel Quad as well.

What I am trying to say is that ESO is developed very close to the edge, just like WOW once was. Developed so that it runs ok in low settings, but sloppy in Ultra and this is typical for many games that came out in the past 10 years.

Game designers only use Ultra & co. for marketing purposes, the intention to play in that setting isn't really there. If we compare this to the games in the 90´s then performance was the first and content the second holy grail. Today its all about the "Look" of the game.

Developers want to impress, they want to get the media behind their product so they can get many potential customers. For this they need Screenshots, Videos etc. They however forget, that fans don't necessarily have the top hardware at home.

SWTOR is a funny but sad example for this. We in Alpha / Beta had HD textures, but the release didn't as EA noticed that their game cant run decent on most PC´s. They later lied and denied that, but we Testers know what we played

I am quite sure that in 2-3 years, ESO will run as smooth as AOC does today and it will look better than ever. Unfortunately did ZO make the mistake to not develop for the next gen API, like they hopefully did now in regards of PS3 (I cant judge this as I don't have the test version).

It would had been a big help to get Mantle support in ESO, to make the game less heavy on our Hardware. The server structure sure also plays its part, but the FPS lags we have are on our end unfortunately.

Unfortunately, better hardware or more memory will not fix ESO. I have some of the best gaming hardware and it has almost no effect on lagsploit. The reason is that ESO has a 32-bit client. WoW has a 64 bit client, WoW-64.exe, ESO does not. Throwing more memory at it doesn't help. A 64-bit client would help ESO scale better in Cyrodiil.

But his argument is that WoW didn't start with a 64-bit client... in fact the 64-bit client got released 8 years after its release.

Does that excuse ESO for not having a 64-bit client this day an age? No. Not at all, but the idea that "It takes time for an MMO to settle" still holds true.

blackweb · February 2015

TheBull wrote: »

Idk I run ESO from 40-60 fps everywhere. Yeah the severs can't handle 200 people in the same spot casting though. Is there any mmorpg that can?

PlanetSide 2 can handle it and then some.

blackweb · February 2015

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

The issue with the lag is, it only takes a group of 24 people on ep to ball up, spam aoe and heals, to bring the server to its knees (you know who you are and your not helping the health of the game). Fix this gameplay mechanic some how, whether its add collision or more abilities to take out grouped players or whatever, it needs to be fixed before Tamriel Unlimited launches or you will see the droves that come in, turn tail and go out in droves.

Truer words were never spoken in this forum!

Rook_Master · February 2015

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

The issue with the lag is, it only takes a group of 24 people on ep to ball up, spam aoe and heals, to bring the server to its knees (you know who you are and your not helping the health of the game). Fix this gameplay mechanic some how, whether its add collision or more abilities to take out grouped players or whatever, it needs to be fixed before Tamriel Unlimited launches or you will see the droves that come in, turn tail and go out in droves.

Amen

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

I wonder if offering the option to completely remove friendly and enemy particle effects and have color coded telegraphs still visible, if that would lessen the lag.

They've offered it in other games.

Cuz it's the visual effects that're destroying Cyrodiil.

arqe · February 2015

Are we really discussing this ?

cozmon3c_ESO · February 2015

arqe wrote: »

Are we really discussing this ?

as we should, lag in cyro is ***, we know the root cause player wise, just need zos to change gameplay mechanics so its not possible to crash the server with as little as a 24 man group. (and fix the server)

arqe · February 2015

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

arqe wrote: »

Are we really discussing this ?

as we should, lag in cyro is ***, we know the root cause player wise, just need zos to change gameplay mechanics so its not possible to crash the server with as little as a 24 man group. (and fix the server)

Sorry , i mean comparing 10+ years of old MMO game that has millions of subscribers with thousands of servers with ESO ?

Blizzard got almost unlimited resources by now. So comparing their servers with eso servers ? Really ? ZOS is not stupid , how can people expect them to do this kinda upgrades in 1 year ?

Did any of you played WOW in its early days ? Apparently not. And saying "its 2015 they should've fixed this already" is not a solution. Its all about the Money which ZOS clearly doesnt have much as Blizzard.

cozmon3c_ESO · February 2015

arqe wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

arqe wrote: »

Are we really discussing this ?

as we should, lag in cyro is ***, we know the root cause player wise, just need zos to change gameplay mechanics so its not possible to crash the server with as little as a 24 man group. (and fix the server)

Sorry , i mean comparing 10+ years of old MMO game that has millions of subscribers with thousands of servers with ESO ?

Blizzard got almost unlimited resources by now. So comparing their servers with eso servers ? Really ? ZOS is not stupid , how can people expect them to do this kinda upgrades in 1 year ?

Did any of you played WOW in its early days ? Apparently not. And saying "its 2015 they should've fixed this already" is not a solution. Its all about the Money which ZOS clearly doesnt have much as Blizzard.

agree'd lol, i guess your previous statement was very vague and open to interpretation

.

i started playing WoW 3 months after its launch, and the servers were still lagging and crashing when i came in. ESO had a smooth start comparatively.

I think what is really grinding peoples gears is that cyrodiil seemed to run better when the game first launched and appears to be neglected. lag issues dont seem to be taken at the top as a serious issue. hopefully we will see some change in 1.6 for the better, but i think many people arent overly optimistic at this point.

Xsorus · February 2015

Lag is mostly to do with Zerg balls, this is fixed in 1.6 with aoe cap removal.

Also ashran in no way compares to cyrodiil, and anyone who thinks warhammer online didn't lag in big keep fights doesn't remember fortresses... They had to place a cap on those otherwise it would crash the server.

TheBull · February 2015

Idk I run ESO from 40-60 fps everywhere. Yeah the severs can't handle 200 people in the same spot casting though. Is there any mmorpg that can?

blackweb wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Idk I run ESO from 40-60 fps everywhere. Yeah the severs can't handle 200 people in the same spot casting though. Is there any mmorpg that can?

PlanetSide 2 can handle it and then some.

That's my second favorite game. It's an mmofps though. A lot was sacrificed from a graphical standpoint (still amazing) to make it happen. A huge one is there's no 3rd person mode in PS2. There is also no character detail as far as facial and body type. These things are a must for mmorpgs.

Don't get me wrong ESO servers have been terrible from day one. Sure they've improved some but still are bad. Graphic optimization in ESO is awesome though. As good as if not better than PS2's even after the amazing O.M.F.G. patch.

Vahrokh · February 2015

arqe wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

arqe wrote: »

Are we really discussing this ?

as we should, lag in cyro is ***, we know the root cause player wise, just need zos to change gameplay mechanics so its not possible to crash the server with as little as a 24 man group. (and fix the server)

Sorry , i mean comparing 10+ years of old MMO game that has millions of subscribers with thousands of servers with ESO ?

Blizzard got almost unlimited resources by now. So comparing their servers with eso servers ? Really ? ZOS is not stupid , how can people expect them to do this kinda upgrades in 1 year ?

Did any of you played WOW in its early days ? Apparently not. And saying "its 2015 they should've fixed this already" is not a solution. Its all about the Money which ZOS clearly doesnt have much as Blizzard.

I am comparing to a 1 year old WoW vs a 1 year old ESO. Blizzard back at the time was probably smaller than ZoS, invested a fraction of development costs.

I am a WoW beta tester (I have closed-beta / open beta tested most MMOs since 2003). Past release I played on 3 servers, I experienced two server crashes in the first 6 months. At the 1 year mark WoW was WAY more polished than ESO.

I was there to see the epic Tarren Mill days, I never got a fraction of the lag I get in Cyro.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Lag is mostly to do with Zerg balls, this is fixed in 1.6 with aoe cap removal.

Also ashran in no way compares to cyrodiil, and anyone who thinks warhammer online didn't lag in big keep fights doesn't remember fortresses... They had to place a cap on those otherwise it would crash the server.

I beta tested Warhammer Online as well (yeah they did not really listen to us

) even past release. There should still be a video of me beta testing exactly the patch that removed fortresses. Even the shoddy Mythic managed to react in about 4 months. Funny thing is, in 2013 they re-added fortresses and they worked. In fact the original issue was due to AoE spam (yeah doesn't it sound so much like Cyrodyl?).

Anyway, both early Blizzard and a failed rubbish company (Mythic) managed to patch their showstopper issues in half the time ESO... still did not.

jeevin · February 2015

I'm confused. Does this mean we get glow bugs back?

Blud · February 2015

That WoW vid was like psychedelic Froot Loops. And the music.

Sheuib · February 2015

I have not had the serious issues that everyone keeps talking about. Which leads me to believe that it is the people's machines that are the problem. I play more PVP than anything else in the game and I have participated in the large zergs as well as been attacked by them and haven't had any problems. Yes I do get a drop in FPS but not to the point of unplayable. The only time I seen a real server issue was on the PTS fight the devs event.

When I first started playing ESO I was having problems and it was my own gear that was causing it. I was playing on a WiFi and had to resort to a hard wire. I found that ESO is not very forgiving for WiFi. It requires a very steady connection that can only be provided by a hard wire connection.

If you really think it is the server try a different campaign with lower numbers and see if you get the same issues during a keep siege. It will have lower numbers on the server but still have a concentration of people in a location. This should test if it is the server or just you. Smaller groups definitely should not be causing lag issues on the server. Another thing to check would be if you get lag during things like trials where there is a lot of spells and aoe flying around in small concentrated areas. If you do to any of these type of situations that means it is your gear not the server.

The main point I am trying to make is everyone needs to ask themselves why some people are not having issue while others are?

Xsorus · February 2015

Vahrokh wrote: »

arqe wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

arqe wrote: »

Are we really discussing this ?

as we should, lag in cyro is ***, we know the root cause player wise, just need zos to change gameplay mechanics so its not possible to crash the server with as little as a 24 man group. (and fix the server)

Sorry , i mean comparing 10+ years of old MMO game that has millions of subscribers with thousands of servers with ESO ?

Blizzard got almost unlimited resources by now. So comparing their servers with eso servers ? Really ? ZOS is not stupid , how can people expect them to do this kinda upgrades in 1 year ?

Did any of you played WOW in its early days ? Apparently not. And saying "its 2015 they should've fixed this already" is not a solution. Its all about the Money which ZOS clearly doesnt have much as Blizzard.

I am comparing to a 1 year old WoW vs a 1 year old ESO. Blizzard back at the time was probably smaller than ZoS, invested a fraction of development costs.

I am a WoW beta tester (I have closed-beta / open beta tested most MMOs since 2003). Past release I played on 3 servers, I experienced two server crashes in the first 6 months. At the 1 year mark WoW was WAY more polished than ESO.

I was there to see the epic Tarren Mill days, I never got a fraction of the lag I get in Cyro.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Lag is mostly to do with Zerg balls, this is fixed in 1.6 with aoe cap removal.

Also ashran in no way compares to cyrodiil, and anyone who thinks warhammer online didn't lag in big keep fights doesn't remember fortresses... They had to place a cap on those otherwise it would crash the server.

I beta tested Warhammer Online as well (yeah they did not really listen to us ) even past release. There should still be a video of me beta testing exactly the patch that removed fortresses. Even the shoddy Mythic managed to react in about 4 months. Funny thing is, in 2013 they re-added fortresses and they worked. In fact the original issue was due to AoE spam (yeah doesn't it sound so much like Cyrodyl?).

Anyway, both early Blizzard and a failed rubbish company (Mythic) managed to patch their showstopper issues in half the time ESO... still did not.

Aoe spam wasn't causing the lag in fortresses. What was causing the lag in fortresses was both factions all showing up in one spot. The same thing would happen in keep fights as well if you had enough people. It's why they placed I think a 200 person limit on entering the fortress area.

jeevin · February 2015

Sheuib wrote: »

I have not had the serious issues that everyone keeps talking about. Which leads me to believe that it is the people's machines that are the problem. I play more PVP than anything else in the game and I have participated in the large zergs as well as been attacked by them and haven't had any problems. Yes I do get a drop in FPS but not to the point of unplayable. The only time I seen a real server issue was on the PTS fight the devs event.

When I first started playing ESO I was having problems and it was my own gear that was causing it. I was playing on a WiFi and had to resort to a hard wire. I found that ESO is not very forgiving for WiFi. It requires a very steady connection that can only be provided by a hard wire connection.

If you really think it is the server try a different campaign with lower numbers and see if you get the same issues during a keep siege. It will have lower numbers on the server but still have a concentration of people in a location. This should test if it is the server or just you. Smaller groups definitely should not be causing lag issues on the server. Another thing to check would be if you get lag during things like trials where there is a lot of spells and aoe flying around in small concentrated areas. If you do to any of these type of situations that means it is your gear not the server.

The main point I am trying to make is everyone needs to ask themselves why some people are not having issue while others are?

Specs?

Regardless, there are plenty of threads about the Cyrodiil performance issues and in every thread there are players with "no issues" playing alongside players with severe performance issues on $$$$ uber rigs.

Sheuib · February 2015

jeevin wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

I have not had the serious issues that everyone keeps talking about. Which leads me to believe that it is the people's machines that are the problem. I play more PVP than anything else in the game and I have participated in the large zergs as well as been attacked by them and haven't had any problems. Yes I do get a drop in FPS but not to the point of unplayable. The only time I seen a real server issue was on the PTS fight the devs event.

When I first started playing ESO I was having problems and it was my own gear that was causing it. I was playing on a WiFi and had to resort to a hard wire. I found that ESO is not very forgiving for WiFi. It requires a very steady connection that can only be provided by a hard wire connection.

If you really think it is the server try a different campaign with lower numbers and see if you get the same issues during a keep siege. It will have lower numbers on the server but still have a concentration of people in a location. This should test if it is the server or just you. Smaller groups definitely should not be causing lag issues on the server. Another thing to check would be if you get lag during things like trials where there is a lot of spells and aoe flying around in small concentrated areas. If you do to any of these type of situations that means it is your gear not the server.

The main point I am trying to make is everyone needs to ask themselves why some people are not having issue while others are?

Specs?

Regardless, there are plenty of threads about the Cyrodiil performance issues and in every thread there are players with "no issues" playing alongside players with severe performance issues on $$$$ uber rigs.

I run an i5 with a radeon R9 290X, 16 meg ram, and duel 250 gig SSD in raid 0 mode. Yes it is a fast gaming machine but like I said I was having problems with it when I was running off the WiFi. So maybe those people that are having problems with high end computers are neglecting the fact they are running off a relatively unstable WiFi. For some reason that I found different than other games is that ESO is very intolerable when it comes to WiFi. Yes the performance of all my games improved when I went to the hard wire but the performance improvement of the other games was minimal where ESO it was dramatic.

It might have to do with all the people in the same spot at once requiring a very stable download speed to get the information to your system at the right time. Because like you said some people are not have problems playing right along side others that are having severe problems. This means it isn't the server. If it is the server everyone would have problems. If only some people are having problems it means the problem is somewhere else in the system that doesn't effect the people that do not have problems, i.e. their own computer, their home network, or their provider.

I also forgot to mention that I have a download speed of 100 Mbps and an upload of 10 Mbps. That probably helps a lot. When I actually test my connection it will download at about 113 and upload at about 14 with a steady line going across. When I tested with the WiFi it was all over the place. It looked like a heart rate monitor.

jeevin · February 2015

Sheuib wrote: »

jeevin wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

I have not had the serious issues that everyone keeps talking about. Which leads me to believe that it is the people's machines that are the problem. I play more PVP than anything else in the game and I have participated in the large zergs as well as been attacked by them and haven't had any problems. Yes I do get a drop in FPS but not to the point of unplayable. The only time I seen a real server issue was on the PTS fight the devs event.

When I first started playing ESO I was having problems and it was my own gear that was causing it. I was playing on a WiFi and had to resort to a hard wire. I found that ESO is not very forgiving for WiFi. It requires a very steady connection that can only be provided by a hard wire connection.

If you really think it is the server try a different campaign with lower numbers and see if you get the same issues during a keep siege. It will have lower numbers on the server but still have a concentration of people in a location. This should test if it is the server or just you. Smaller groups definitely should not be causing lag issues on the server. Another thing to check would be if you get lag during things like trials where there is a lot of spells and aoe flying around in small concentrated areas. If you do to any of these type of situations that means it is your gear not the server.

The main point I am trying to make is everyone needs to ask themselves why some people are not having issue while others are?

Specs?

Regardless, there are plenty of threads about the Cyrodiil performance issues and in every thread there are players with "no issues" playing alongside players with severe performance issues on $$$$ uber rigs.

I run an i5 with a radeon R9 290X, 16 meg ram, and duel 250 gig SSD in raid 0 mode. Yes it is a fast gaming machine but like I said I was having problems with it when I was running off the WiFi. So maybe those people that are having problems with high end computers are neglecting the fact they are running off a relatively unstable WiFi. For some reason that I found different than other games is that ESO is very intolerable when it comes to WiFi. Yes the performance of all my games improved when I went to the hard wire but the performance improvement of the other games was minimal where ESO it was dramatic.

It might have to do with all the people in the same spot at once requiring a very stable download speed to get the information to your system at the right time. Because like you said some people are not have problems playing right along side others that are having severe problems. This means it isn't the server. If it is the server everyone would have problems. If only some people are having problems it means the problem is somewhere else in the system that doesn't effect the people that do not have problems, i.e. their own computer, their home network, or their provider.

My PC runs AMD cpu 9370 @ 4.5Ghz, 16Gb ram, 240Gb SSD, AMD 280X on Asus Crossfire Mobo, Running Windows 8.1 64bit. My interwebs(cable) download at 10.5 mbs and up at 2 mbs from Australia. I don't have the same lag issues in GW2(latency equivalent) and didn't when I played FF14. I can play mobas and fps with no real issues. But I do get some serious stuttering when I played in Cyrodiil. I get performance drops outside of Cyrodiil too.

I'm not a server wiz but I've played games in the past where only certain players from different areas have performance issues and I remember playing BF2 when half of the server would disconnect. These issues can be server side too. But like you've mentioned there are so many variables here so it's hard to know. But don't be too keen to discount server side.

synnerman · February 2015

Since the maintenance on the EU server this week Im getting latency spikes of up to 6-700 on Thornblade EU and even on Chillrend EU 200+ to 400. I usually get about 70-90 and im also now getting far more disconnects. 120mb download and 11 upload.

Vahrokh · March 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Aoe spam wasn't causing the lag in fortresses. What was causing the lag in fortresses was both factions all showing up in one spot. The same thing would happen in keep fights as well if you had enough people. It's why they placed I think a 200 person limit on entering the fortress area.

I was the beta tester tasked with drawing red circles overlaid on videos I had taken, where I'd mark my position (I had an AoE specced Sorc) with respect to funnel points, ladders and other locations where lag happened the most. The next patch had the 200 men cap but also an AoE max targets cap.

Arki · March 2015

Vahrokh wrote: »

blackweb wrote: »

Unfortunately, better hardware or more memory will not fix ESO. I have some of the best gaming hardware and it has almost no effect on lagsploit. The reason is that ESO has a 32-bit client. WoW has a 64 bit client, WoW-64.exe, ESO does not. Throwing more memory at it doesn't help. A 64-bit client would help ESO scale better in Cyrodiil.

It's not the 64 bit client.

Blizzard rose to fame because their games are simple to grasp and run on the worst garbage you can throw at them.

WoW is optimized to a degree ESO can't even dream to ever compare.

Also, I was playing Tarren Mill PvP at the dawn of time, on a potato computer and it ran fairly smooth. Sometimes it choked but it was the PC never the WoW network code.

I am playing PvP games since the 90s... WoW has always been on the higher side of smothness, despite some time in 2005 they remade their motion prediction code into a more complex thing (exactly to minimize the visual effects of lag).

I have found smoother gameplay with latest Warhammer (100-300 guys clumped in a keep) than ESO, and Warhammer had a TON of AoE mechanics and body block. The latter is an awesome feature any PvP tactician loves but eats abusive amounts of bandwidth. Yet I still experienced less PvP lag in such game than I do in ESO. And believe me, Warhammer was NOT made well. To the point they closed it down.

At least, ZoS has foreseen the fall and unlike EA *** they committed into implementing F2P before it was too late. EA didn't, so we lost one of the most fun RvR games of the past decade.

Tarren Mill with no server lag? You must be joking. On low hours it was fine yeah, but when the numbers started to approach typical cyrodill keep siege the whole thing stopped being responsive, you could wait tens of seconds before any abilities fired etc.

Not saying Cyrodill is ok atm, but Tarren Mill was a lagfest most of the time. And I spent alot of time there. The best (allthough maybe unintentional) pvp wow has ever had imo - purely player-based with hard-but-killable guards being kited around. Good old times

EDIT: Disclaimer: It's been a while since Tarren Mill, my memory may not serve me as well as i think