The 1.6 rebalancing/relaunching/releveling will HAPPEN AGAIN SOON.

Lied · February 2015

badmojo wrote: »

That's the price you pay when you start playing a game like this later in the games life.

And what successful titles are you basing this horrible philosophy on? Anywhere I see a western MMO thriving or reviving it's because expansions re-level the playing field and new mechanics empower new players to catch up.

I'll be very surprised if another MMO ever caters to "hardcore" players over casuals ever again after what happened to Wildstar.

WhiskyBob · February 2015

For those worried bout patch being the end of this game i have created something special.
There:

mika_hr1eb17_ESO · February 2015

Egonieser wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

I don't think new players expect to be on an even footing with existing players, but I think they expect to be competitive.

Competitive? Can you name a single "popular" MMO that makes you competitive without extensive grind, be it for gear, stats, points or whatever the form of advancement is?
I can't think of one personally.
In fact i can name at least a dozen that do this exact same thing and are even far worse, yet they are more popular than ESO. Maybe in a different shape or form but nonetheless, principle remains the same.

I have played this game since 1st CBT, i followed it from ground up. However, i never played the PTS so i maybe don't get everything spot on in terms of general changes, do forgive me for that.
But again, this is my personal opinion. I am only expressing my views and comparisons and in my view.. What's coming up is a benefit rather than a bane and i can't wait.

CP is a system that gives players actual advancement post-max-level, rather than just an ability to wear better rags and some vanity stuff. It is something that will keep players engaged for a longer period of time, giving them an incentive to strive to be the best and maxed out. Which is also better for business.

Sure, existing players might not like it as they grew up in a slightly different environment.
Someone who comes not knowing any better or having any point of comparison will not give a skeever's arse. They will see it as current end-game and work towards it. And with B2P being imminent, they do need that incentive.
And do remember - this game is still in it's infancy, it doesn't have a established end-game system. It seems it's only just temporary until they find that golden apple. Almost any "experienced" MMO has gone through this stage, in the 1st year of release it is all trial-and-error. Some games succeed, some go down the drain.
What happens with ESO, only time will tell. And also, what people see in PTS is also subject to change, so it's not definitive proof that current PTS system will be Live as they see it now. It might still be tweaked and balanced right before launch.

GW2, 2nd most successful MMO in the west.

Popular enough?

EvE, you can get competitive quite fast

Sacadon · February 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

I don't think new players expect to be on an even footing with existing players, but I think they expect to be competitive.

Competitive? Can you name a single "popular" MMO that makes you competitive without extensive grind, be it for gear, stats, points or whatever the form of advancement is?
I can't think of one personally.
In fact i can name at least a dozen that do this exact same thing and are even far worse, yet they are more popular than ESO.

Did you play on the PTS with 70 or fewer CP against people with thousands of CP? If not, you can't understand what I'm talking about.

Maybe we need to define competitive.

When I say competitive I mean, "Your level of ability and intelligence playing the game has SOME DISCERNIBLE EFFECT against higher spec'd characters"

Go experience on the PTS if you haven't. Going in there with no CP is literally like being a fly on the back of a Rhino.

People don't even bother to fight you. You can't damage them. You are the equivalent of an NPC wolf. At best you are annoying, at worst they don't even notice they've been hit as they move on to whatever they had planned on doing.

Nobody is going to go from lvl 1 to 50 to VR14 to VR14+ thousands of CP in order to achieve SOME DISCERNIBLE EFFECT.

Yes, I did... And recall at least one player that kept wiping me, that I eventually took down, but I think it was a fluke. Fly today rhino eventually.

k2blader · February 2015

Of course hardcore players who have time to play several hours per day have no problem with this system. I have fairly high derision for those of them who fail to see how, for PvP, the result will have nothing to do with skill, when ironically they are usually the kind of folks claiming success because of skill. The only way PvP would actually be more about skill is if campaigns were changed to categorize players into level and/or CP brackets. The obvious problem with that is lack of sufficient population to sustain every defined bracket. Also, the account wide distribution and application of CPs for all characters makes it essentially impossible for new or non-hardcore players to enjoy a generally fair and fun playing field in nonvet PvP.

Minack · February 2015

Audigy wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

They underestimated how long it would take players to get to VR14. They underestimated how long it would take players to finish content. They underestimated how quickly players would complete trials. There is a pattern here.

They actually did not underestimate it, as it takes several months to get to Rank 14 legally. What they underestimated was the sheer amount of exploit willing people, players that destroy their own game by using grind spots for massive XP.

I bet that without the Craglorn exploits, half of those who are Rank 14 now, wouldn't be there today.

ZO made the big mistake of not fixing these loopholes instantly, as they were well known in Beta, well known on the PTS - but ZO seemed to believe in the good of people and that they wouldn't abuse those mechanics.

I didn't test the CS enough to really analyze properly how big the exploit potential there is, but I wont be surprised if some of the min / maxers found ways again to not only get 1 CP each 4 hours, but several.

As far my experience in online gaming goes, one of these loopholes will be enough to destroy a whole game for years. D3 is still broken, HS is, I believe there also was something in the game we don't speak of in regards of gold / hour etc.

The CS is a restart, but I am honestly worried that testers figured out ways to abuse that new system as much as old Craglorn or the Dungeons in Beta.

I wish ZO luck

Do you ever post anything that isn't a steaming pile of garbage?

The amount of time it takes to get from 50 to VR 14 doesn't suddenly have an impact on the power difference between the two levels. If anything, the longer it takes to reach max level, "legally" as you say, only makes the gulf worse because you're forced to spend time doing something you don't want to do just to be on par with everyone else. This is a game, not a second job. Just get over the fact not everyone enjoys completing mindless quests for an entire month.

Minack · February 2015

tplink3r1 wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Does the OP want us all to stop progressing after leaving the prison in cold harbor?

Why does it matter if a new player can't catch up because of a massive grind fest? That's the price you pay when you start playing a game like this later in the games life.

Theres a reason why they are called "super casuals", they want progression to be COMPLETELY remove from this game.

Nice strawman.

Sacadon · February 2015

k2blader wrote: »

Of course hardcore players who have time to play several hours per day have no problem with this system. I have fairly high derision for those of them who fail to see how, for PvP, the result will have nothing to do with skill, when ironically they are usually the kind of folks claiming success because of skill. The only way PvP would actually be more about skill is if campaigns were changed to categorize players into level and/or CP brackets. The obvious problem with that is lack of sufficient population to sustain every defined bracket. Also, the account wide distribution and application of CPs for all characters makes it essentially impossible for new or non-hardcore players to enjoy a generally fair and fun playing field in nonvet PvP.

FTR, I farm mats in the morn with my coffee for about 1 hr, then evenings after dinner and time with family 1 hr, then 4+ hrs Th PvP nights... And of course varied on weekends.

Yes we've major issues with campaigns, size, setup, scoring, timing and lag. Edit (just to name a few)

New non-core players should go to blackwater or get melted. I go to NA TB on my VR1 alt occasionally and yes get melted, but boy do I learn a lot more about survivability.

badmojo · February 2015

Lied wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

That's the price you pay when you start playing a game like this later in the games life.

And what successful titles are you basing this horrible philosophy on? Anywhere I see a western MMO thriving or reviving it's because expansions re-level the playing field and new mechanics empower new players to catch up.

I'll be very surprised if another MMO ever caters to "hardcore" players over casuals ever again after what happened to Wildstar.

I really couldn't say, I don't play many MMOs. But, lets be clear, I'm talking about a player who starts playing a year from now expecting to catch up to the players who have been grinding out champion points for the last year. That's just not going to happen unless you neglect to sleep, and even then, there are people out there who break the rules and share their account with more than 1 person. You can't catch up with those players until they reach the end of their grind.

I wasn't talking about casuals versus hardcore players, and saying how this game is hardcore biased. My post was about hardcore players who started late expecting to be neck and neck with the hardcore players who've been grinding for a year. It's not going to happen, it's the nature of this type of game.

olemanwinter · February 2015

Sacadon wrote: »

Fly today rhino eventually.

The problem with that is that it's neither fun for the rhino or the fly. Who really even wants to be so OP than nothing is a challenge?

If a new player comes into this game 8 months from now and feels like a fly as we existing players are rhinos, the sad fact is that by the time they get to be a rhino themselves there may not be any original rhinos left OR new insects for them to squash.

Too vast a disparity is truly a double blow to the game. Those who cannot compete leave and those that get bored from nobody competing against them also leave.

I'm not wrong. The very nature of the current relaunch is evidence of this problem. But the problem has not been fixed, it's been delayed and exacerbated.

olemanwinter · February 2015

Sacadon wrote: »

New non-core players should go to blackwater or get melted.

That's a fine sentiment until you find yourself in your uber-elite pvp zone........all alone.

badmojo · February 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Does the OP want us all to stop progressing after leaving the prison in cold harbor?

Why does it matter if a new player can't catch up because of a massive grind fest? That's the price you pay when you start playing a game like this later in the games life.

Theres a reason why they are called "super casuals", they want progression to be COMPLETELY remove from this game.

What a joke. If anything I'm a min/max hardcore player by comparison. I'm more likely to be one of the OP ones with thousands of CP....before being releveled.

What do I want? TO NOT BE THE ONLY PERSON PLAYING THE FREAKING GAME.

Go on the PTS and play against someone with 1000+ CP without any CP of your own. GO DO THAT....then come back and spout your nonsense drivel about "super casuals".

You want the game to be F2P? You want it do be dead? That's what's coming when existing players leave the game over time for a variety of reasons (death, jobs, money, boredom) and there are no new players because the game is absurdly unfriendly to new customers.

I'm not talking about now. I'm not talking about not progressing past "leaving the prison at cold harbor". Less stupid hyperbole please.

I'm talking about a year from now when people have thousands of CP. I'm talking about understanding now why in 12 months this game will be relaunched a 2nd time and be F2P.

Or instead, you can all be "shocked and dismayed" again when it happens like you were this time. lol.

I mentioned the prison in cold harbor because there's no clear solution proposed. You just want future hypothetical situations not to happen, and give no real way of avoiding them, or evidence that they'll even happen.

"Go to the PTS and play against someone with 1000+ CP..." sure, I'm guessing I would lose. What does this even mean? Why is this a concern? If I went on the live server at VR1 and fought a VR14, guess who would win? Does that mean no VR1s ever play in Cyrodiil? Does it mean they never make contributions to the fights they're in? Does it mean they can NEVER kill a vr14? Does it mean a VR14 with no skill at all can faceroll them all day?

Also, and this ones a biggie, ESO isn't a giant 1 vs 1 competition. Unless for some reason the most dedicated players all flock to 1 faction, there should be players of equal achievement on your side of the fight also. And another thing, kills don't win you the Alliance War, working with your faction to hold the most ground does. I don't care how many CP you have, you're not going to take a keep alone, especially when people are defending it.

It just seems like you guys want to ALWAYS have a fair shot at killing anyone put in your path. That's respectable, to want that, but then you don't want to work for it, you want it handed to you, and everyone, for doing the bare minimum. That's something I will never agree with.

Grao · February 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

If you knew at launch back in April what changes would be made in 1.6, would you have still played from then until now?

Yes, I'd have played the game because I quite enjoyed my time spent here. Would I have rolled a sorcerer as my only character? Definitely not. No, I'd probably have rolled a Dragonknight as even after a few nerfs the class is still stable as one of the strongest and most versatile models.

OP is correct when he says history is about to repeat it self.

Zenimax rushed ESO's release against their beta tester's advise. We all knew the game had too many bugs to be brought to Live, yet ZoS, in a show of corporatist greed or fear of failing to meet dead lines, ignored the Community's warnings and many forum posts to push an incomplete game to the market.

ESO was nearly destroyed by critics - that is about to happen once more.

Tamriel Unlimited, the second incarnation of ESO is being rushed forward just like ESO was, maybe not with as many bugs as the first incarnation of the game, but with quite a few problems of its own. Two progressions layered on top of each other when they were never meant to coexist is only one of the issues with 1.6.

That the game is getting a relaunch with leftovers of a flawed, failed progression system is inconceivable and will lead critics to bafflement. Zenimax expects new players both on Pc and Console to go through a "grind" progression they already said will be removed in the coming months. Join with that the fact once more the company decided to release the game with one of its four classes not working and we have the makings of a disaster.

Actually, we have the makings of the same disaster many of us witnessed when ESO was first released. How long do you think it will take for critics to max level a sorcerer and then be bared from participating on End Game Content because the class is known to be under powered, bugged and generally useless to a group? As if the ghost of the veteran system wasn't enough to make critics raise an eyebrow to ESO's so called clean slate.

Alphashado · February 2015

While I agree that there will be a large disparity between 0 CP and max CP, there is one significant difference betwee VR progression and CP progression - CP applies to your entire account.

One of the biggest problems with vet ranks is having to grind through them all with every one of your alternate characters if you want to try a different class at endgame. This won't be an issue with CP. Assuming zos still plans on removing vet ranks.

So while the VR grind disgruntles new and vet players alike, the CP disparity will mostly only effect new players years down the road.

It's still an issue to be sure, but zos has a long time to address it considering how long it will take before people get close to max CP.

But there will indeed have to be changes made at some point especially if future content is scaled to higher CP players

Iluvrien · February 2015

olsborg wrote: »

What do you do then? Sorry just had to ask.

To the OP, yes I agree, im worried that the cp system will bring this game to its end.

No problem, it is a fair question.

We quest, we run dungeons, we play alts, we RP and we help the newer members of the guild (though there haven't been many of those for a long time).

olemanwinter wrote: »

Well, me too. And I said so at the end of the post. So, I think maybe you didn't read it. But that's okay.

I did, but since your statement at the end of the post didn't invalidate the initial question (hint: your post was a bit long and discursive to render the initial question rhetorical) I decided to answer it too. Is this a problem?

Sacadon · February 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

Fly today rhino eventually.

The problem with that is that it's neither fun for the rhino or the fly. Who really even wants to be so OP than nothing is a challenge?

If a new player comes into this game 8 months from now and feels like a fly as we existing players are rhinos, the sad fact is that by the time they get to be a rhino themselves there may not be any original rhinos left OR new insects for them to squash.

Too vast a disparity is truly a double blow to the game. Those who cannot compete leave and those that get bored from nobody competing against them also leave.

I'm not wrong. The very nature of the current relaunch is evidence of this problem. But the problem has not been fixed, it's been delayed and exacerbated.

I don't agree about it being fun for neither of the two, but it would not be the first time I've been wrong

.

So, what shall we do then (asking sincerely)?

Sacadon · February 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

New non-core players should go to blackwater or get melted.

That's a fine sentiment until you find yourself in your uber-elite pvp zone........all alone.

what's this uber elite place you speak of?

Cody · February 2015

forget the CPs; I could solo 3 resources in a row with nothing but a bow and 2H for the melee guards with only 70Cps on, and 25-30ish of them were applied to the roll dodge passive:/

Bows and possibly 2H weapons are going to be extremely OP when 1.6 goes live.

It will be a few years before people start getting all 3600 CPs, by then I'm sure ZOS will have solved the CP problem, lets focus on more modern problems to the game then worry about the future.

olemanwinter · February 2015

badmojo wrote: »

You just want future hypothetical situations not to happen, and give no real way of avoiding them, or evidence that they'll even happen.

It's not hypothetical if you played on the PTS with no CP against those with 1000+.

There are some things we know.

1) Players that exist now will continue to earn CP.
2) Players not in the game now will not earn any CP until they arrive in game.
3) The longer the period of time between now and the entrance of a new player the greater the disparity of CP will be.
4) The power of low and high CP is GREATER than the difference between low and high VR ever was.

Those are all facts. From those, we can deduce some obvious conclusions. That's how our brains are supposed to function, although I did read recently that the vast majority of current college graduates could not think critically. But anyone with the ability to think critically and logically can see the future holds a game with a wider imbalance than currently exists which was already at such a level as to require a complete relaunch of the game.

olemanwinter · February 2015

Iluvrien wrote: »

I did, but since your statement at the end of the post didn't invalidate the initial question (hint: your post was a bit long and discursive to render the initial question rhetorical) I decided to answer it too. Is this a problem?

Nope.

olemanwinter · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

While I agree that there will be a large disparity between 0 CP and max CP, there is one significant difference betwee VR progression and CP progression - CP applies to your entire account.

One of the biggest problems with vet ranks is having to grind through them all with every one of your alternate characters if you want to try a different class at endgame. This won't be an issue with CP. Assuming zos still plans on removing vet ranks.

So while the VR grind disgruntles new and vet players alike, the CP disparity will mostly only effect new players years down the road.

It's still an issue to be sure, but zos has a long time to address it considering how long it will take before people get close to max CP.

But there will indeed have to be changes made at some point especially if future content is scaled to higher CP players

You are right on all points except I think you're extremely overestimating how long it will take people to reach high levels of CP. You also don't need 3600 to max a build. 2/3 of the CP buffs are likely worthless to your build.

I believe this is going to be a huge HUGE obvious problem before the July 4th holiday. Not years. This game will be relaunched yet again and likely F2P or worse P2W in "years" if they don't change direction FAST.

kungmoo · February 2015

everyone complaining about people coming to the game a year from now.....

ever stop to think that some of the CP earning might be changed before then to combat such a problem?

such as something like for the first 500cp you only need 10k xp to get a point?
or maybe get some CP by reaching lvl 50?

ZoS has probably thought of several ways to combat this possible problem already, would be poor planning if they hadn't.

But please, continue your doom n gloom.

olemanwinter · February 2015

Sacadon wrote: »

I don't agree about it being fun for neither of the two, but it would not be the first time I've been wrong .

So, what shall we do then (asking sincerely)?

That's fairly easy imho.

1) Dramatically reduce the buffs from CP. They are too powerful to ignore. They DEMAND to be grinded if there is any way to do so. It WILL happen because they represent too great an advancement.

The CP should be along the lines of the power of a current Mundus Stone. It's worth getting, but it hardly makes or breaks your build.

Honestly, I would suggest reducing all the power of the CP buffs by a factor of at least 5, perhaps 10.

2) Create some freaking content so that there is something to do after max level.

I played GW1 for a decade. I reached max level very quickly. 80% of the map was available after you reached "max level". Not 10%.

The trials were great. But they required a massive grind to get to them. DSA is great, but it requires a massive grind to get to it. The dungeon scaling helped a little but not enough.

3) Create cosmetic and achievement-style end-game items for vets to grind for. They can have small buffs.

The Undaunted sets and dungeon helms are a GREAT example. They look cool. They offer more build options. They need grinding. It's the perfect thing to accompany PvP for end game.

Heck, there could be epic weapons that can only be crafted at end game that require farming and gathering and achievements.

In other words, you cannot simultaneously encourage future NEW players while giving EXISTING players "MORE POWER" as a reward for their grind. Those two things are not mutually exclusive but they do have an inversely proportionate relationship.

You have to find the sweet spot. The current CP system is way outside of that spot. Way out.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · February 2015

Welcome to the world of MMO's. Have a nice day!

jeevin · February 2015

Grao wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

If you knew at launch back in April what changes would be made in 1.6, would you have still played from then until now?

Yes, I'd have played the game because I quite enjoyed my time spent here. Would I have rolled a sorcerer as my only character? Definitely not. No, I'd probably have rolled a Dragonknight as even after a few nerfs the class is still stable as one of the strongest and most versatile models.

OP is correct when he says history is about to repeat it self.

Zenimax rushed ESO's release against their beta tester's advise. We all knew the game had too many bugs to be brought to Live, yet ZoS, in a show of corporatist greed or fear of failing to meet dead lines, ignored the Community's warnings and many forum posts to push an incomplete game to the market.

ESO was nearly destroyed by critics - that is about to happen once more.

Tamriel Unlimited, the second incarnation of ESO is being rushed forward just like ESO was, maybe not with as many bugs as the first incarnation of the game, but with quite a few problems of its own. Two progressions layered on top of each other when they were never meant to coexist is only one of the issues with 1.6.

That the game is getting a relaunch with leftovers of a flawed, failed progression system is inconceivable and will lead critics to bafflement. Zenimax expects new players both on Pc and Console to go through a "grind" progression they already said will be removed in the coming months. Join with that the fact once more the company decided to release the game with one of its four classes not working and we have the makings of a disaster.

Actually, we have the makings of the same disaster many of us witnessed when ESO was first released. How long do you think it will take for critics to max level a sorcerer and then be bared from participating on End Game Content because the class is known to be under powered, bugged and generally useless to a group? As if the ghost of the veteran system wasn't enough to make critics raise an eyebrow to ESO's so called clean slate.

This is pretty much how I feel about the coming "relaunch" . The devs at Zos may be working extremely hard on the game to get it ready for Tamriel Unlimited and console launch but for me the game is still nowhere near ready. Zeni suits can't honestly expect the game to be well received with Vet Ranks still there and a Cyrodiil that is still laggy, along with a host of issues that have been in game from day one.

badmojo · February 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

You just want future hypothetical situations not to happen, and give no real way of avoiding them, or evidence that they'll even happen.

It's not hypothetical if you played on the PTS with no CP against those with 1000+.

There are some things we know.

1) Players that exist now will continue to earn CP.
2) Players not in the game now will not earn any CP until they arrive in game.
3) The longer the period of time between now and the entrance of a new player the greater the disparity of CP will be.
4) The power of low and high CP is GREATER than the difference between low and high VR ever was.

Those are all facts. From those, we can deduce some obvious conclusions. That's how our brains are supposed to function, although I did read recently that the vast majority of current college graduates could not think critically. But anyone with the ability to think critically and logically can see the future holds a game with a wide imbalance than currently exists which was already at such a level as to require a complete relaunch of the game.

You don't get it.

Of course there will be an in-balance, and of course it'll be wider than now. It'll be wider because it requires more time, like adding more VR ranks would take more time and make the in-balance even wider than it is now.

The hypothetical part is that an inbalance like this will drive the game into the ground, requiring a "relaunch". The 1.6 changes aren't going into effect because there was an inbalance between new players and vets. You can't point to 1.6 and the game going B2P as examples of how the champion system is going to play out.

Going back to my original point, all you have with this thread is "look guys! the higher rank can kill me! unfair!" and if that's what we're trying to stop here then why bother progressing past the cold harbor prison at all? There's always going to be someone with more time and more power. That's the point of the games design.

olemanwinter · February 2015

astal360b14_ESO wrote: »

ZoS has probably thought of several ways to combat this possible problem already, would be poor planning if they hadn't.

Zos....already....poor planning

were the only words I read.

olemanwinter · February 2015

badmojo wrote: »

You don't get it.

Of course there will be an in-balance, and of course it'll be wider than now. It'll be wider because it requires more time, like adding more VR ranks would take more time and make the in-balance even wider than it is now.

The hypothetical part is that an inbalance like this will drive the game into the ground, requiring a "relaunch". The 1.6 changes aren't going into effect because there was an inbalance between new players and vets.

No, it's you who doesn't get it.

The game is going B2P because it failed financially to sustain itself with subscriptions.

It failed financially because there was such little end-game content that powerful vets blew through it and new players generally quit upon encountering the grind from VR1-14.

The reason the game was relaunched along side the switch to B2P was to rectify the problems that caused it to financially fail to begin with.

You couldn't be any more oblivious if you tried.

badmojo · February 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

You don't get it.

Of course there will be an in-balance, and of course it'll be wider than now. It'll be wider because it requires more time, like adding more VR ranks would take more time and make the in-balance even wider than it is now.

The hypothetical part is that an inbalance like this will drive the game into the ground, requiring a "relaunch". The 1.6 changes aren't going into effect because there was an inbalance between new players and vets.

No, it's you who doesn't get it.

The game is going B2P because it failed financially to sustain itself with subscriptions.

It failed financially because there was such little end-game content that powerful vets blew through it and new players generally quit upon encountering the grind from VR1-14.

The reason the game was relaunched along side the switch to B2P was to rectify the problems that caused it to financially fail to begin with.

You couldn't be any more oblivious if you tried.

And you couldn't be any more insulting if you tried.

Where's your proof that the game failed financially? Are you an insider at ZOS?

You can't pull things out of nowhere and act like they're facts.

olemanwinter · February 2015

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

Welcome to the world of MMO's. Have a nice day!

What a joke. How can you write off everything as "just standard MMO operating procedure" as you SIMULTANEOUSLY face the financial failure of P2P and relaunch of the game?

It's absurd.

Are we really going to repeat the last 12 months over again? Where everyone who complains is told to "STFU noob" while the big fans insist it will NEVER go F2P, then when it inevitably does everyone acts shocked and a few get to say "I told you so".

Give me a break. This is a RELAUNCH. Not a launch.

The game as designed already failed. It failed for a reason. If you can coherently define while it failed then you should be able to figure out if the new changes will fix the problem or not.

So, unless every other MMO was set up in the same way, encountered the same problems, failed for the same reasons, and instituted the same changes, then it's worth discussing the differences.