olemanwinter wrote: »

If you knew at launch back in April what changes would be made in 1.6, would you have still played from then until now?

Because that's exactly where we are now. History will almost certainly repeat itself, and here's why:

If you have attempted to play on the PTS with only the 70 CP you will get at launch and compared yourself to someone playing with full 3600 CP, then you know how vast the difference is.

The difference between 70 and 3000+ CP is VASTLY GREATER than the difference between lvl50 and VR14 ever was!

It will take a while for players to get thousands of CP, but I bet it won't take as long as Zos thinks. It never does.

They underestimated how long it would take players to get to VR14. They underestimated how long it would take players to finish content. They underestimated how quickly players would complete trials. There is a pattern here.

So, let's look ahead to the game 11 months from now, just as 1.6 hits us 11 months after launch

New players will see a huge and overwhelming mountain of grind in front of them. They will be completely uncompetitive in PvP.

As for content, the game will either have to cater to the noobs or the vets. Even with the removal of VR ranks (if that ever takes place) something like a Craglorn Trial will either be far too easy for max CP characters (again...much stronger than current VR14) or much to difficult for a fresh lvl 50 with no CP (again....much weaker than the current VR14)

The existing system was REPLACED because a massive grind created an imbalance of power between new and existing players that discouraged new customers.

It has been replaced my a longer grind that leads to a much greater imbalance of power. The system is destined to fail. Not the game (necessarily), but the system.

So, you have to know.....it's only a matter of time before everything happening now is repeated. A new system, a new rebalance, a new releveling.

I'm going to keep playing until it goes Pay to Win, but in the same way that 1.6 accompanied a change to B2P, you have to expect that 6 or 12 months from now when they repeat this is will be accompanied by a change to F2P.

All I know people like us that have been here from beta will need to work through the bugs and broken quests once again. If you think this won't have a lot of bugs hate to tell ya this but patches like this always does. There is no guarantee what works on PTS will work on live. So once again it is up to us to find the problems and they hope we can fix them before console hits.

olemanwinter wrote: »

If you knew at launch back in April what changes would be made in 1.6, would you have still played from then until now?

Yes.

Well that was easy...

[For the sake of not having a 5 word post, here are the reasons why:
1) I actually have enjoyed the time I have spent in game over the last 11 months.
2) Any direct changes to the strength of my character will either be fixed in time (maybe) or be something I can work to lessen the impact of.
3) The changes are likely to affect my guildmates both positively and negatively but not in a disproportionate way in either direction (given the mix of characters and classes they play) so overall, with the content we are doing, it shouldn't prove to be disastrous.
4) We do not Raid, do Trials or PvP... as such there is no "gap" introduced by this system that makes the slightest bit of difference to us.

Of course all of the above applies to myself and my guildmates only, and I (and we) do not expect this to have any effect on others but you did ask]

Iluvrien wrote: »

4) We do not Raid, do Trials or PvP... as such there is no "gap" introduced by this system that makes the slightest bit of difference to us.

]

What do you do then? Sorry just had to ask.

To the OP, yes I agree, im worried that the cp system will bring this game to its end.

olemanwinter wrote: »

They underestimated how long it would take players to get to VR14. They underestimated how long it would take players to finish content. They underestimated how quickly players would complete trials. There is a pattern here.

They actually did not underestimate it, as it takes several months to get to Rank 14 legally. What they underestimated was the sheer amount of exploit willing people, players that destroy their own game by using grind spots for massive XP.

I bet that without the Craglorn exploits, half of those who are Rank 14 now, wouldn't be there today.

ZO made the big mistake of not fixing these loopholes instantly, as they were well known in Beta, well known on the PTS - but ZO seemed to believe in the good of people and that they wouldn't abuse those mechanics.

I didn't test the CS enough to really analyze properly how big the exploit potential there is, but I wont be surprised if some of the min / maxers found ways again to not only get 1 CP each 4 hours, but several.

As far my experience in online gaming goes, one of these loopholes will be enough to destroy a whole game for years. D3 is still broken, HS is, I believe there also was something in the game we don't speak of in regards of gold / hour etc.

The CS is a restart, but I am honestly worried that testers figured out ways to abuse that new system as much as old Craglorn or the Dungeons in Beta.

I wish ZO luck

Audigy wrote: »

They actually did not underestimate it, as it takes several months to get to Rank 14 legally.

What do you mean....legally?

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

I'm not worried about the imbalance between classes and skill sets; I'm not competing with anyone. I don't care if their character(s) is/are more powerful than mine.

You don't think you do, but you do. And you will.

Those dungeons that were so hard for you at VR1, where easy as pie for me. Easy as pie.

So I didn't group....I just blew through them and moved on. A lot of people did the same. We solo'd the semi-fun content in those VR zones and skipped the rest.

You were left all alone wishing there was someone to group with for a VR1 dungeon....so you do(or should) care about class and character imbalance.

But more on point for my original premise.

Lets look at VR12 Craglorn Trials like AA

Lets assume for a moment that the AA trial remains the same over the next year just to make things simple.

The current average time on a no-deaths run of AA is probably around 14-17 min.

If you took 12 players with 1000+ CP that time would be SIGNIFICANTLY less. (Lets just guesstimate 8-12 min)

If you took 12 players with zero CP that time would be SIGNIFICANTLY higher. (Lets just guesstimate 22-28 min)


Surely you can see how even if you just want to play the game for fun, it creates an impediment to grouping which is inhibits your fun!

It doesn't matter if you don't care if you are competitive if you desire to group and everyone grouping cares if you are competitive!

Yep, this post nails it. They thought the Champion System would offer some better form of horizontal progression while a bit of vertical progression, but the way it is implemented right now, it's a HUGE VERTICAL PROGRESSION INCREASE.

Why would this be discouraging to new players?
In almost any MMO that has been out for a while there is endgame grind, endgame perks and huge bonuses that you will never acquire during normal leveling and exploring thus making you far more powerful than someone who just hit max level.
People seem to think that max level is the end.. when in reality, it is just the beggining, the beggining of the extreme grindfest. Here is it mostly CP + gear, in other games it's gear+stats+achievements or deeds or whatever...
So what if someone gets 3600 CP, he spent his time in this game and invested effort and money. And i believe any new player who knows the game has been out for a set period of time will be pretty much AWARE that there are people with MAX characters, just like there is in ANY MMO out there... Why is this such a big deal? It's a MMO afterall.

In Lord of the Rings Online, i spent months of in-game-time just running concurrent endgame instances/raids/doing deeds to get my character maxed out and i was still nowhere near finish (and i played that game for 7 bloody years and it had to be done after every Xpac or content update).
So here, it's not about the gear as much, but it's about CP's, with gear coming secondary i guess.. It's still the same logic. You hit max level, you grind until your eyes bleed to fulfill your character, and yes, in most cases in ANY MMO, that post-max-lvl advancement will be more powerful and OP than all previous levels and gear combined - it is NORMAL. ZoS sees it that way too, because that is a general path any mainstream MMO goes down.

Do I like it? I don't know, only time will tell. But will I lose sleep over it? Far from it, in fact i might sleep better knowing what power awaits me.
If some rich and totally maxed out b**tard kills me, instead of moaning and b***ching about it "Oh how unfair it is, he is max and too OP for me... I must actually put effort and time to become like him - OPNERFPLZ" I will see the glimpse of my future, what awaits me and I will anticipate it and be excited. I am in any MMO.

But if this is a problem to many of you... Either you haven't played a MMO in the past, or maybe just struck lucky with having a MMO of divine balance and perfect endgame where nobody is displeased and everyone is happy... (Said no-one ever..)

But yeah, that's my take on it.

For anyone to care about your post you would have to take into account their motivations for playing. If you actually like the content/lore of the game you will be fine. You will revel in the new features of the next patch. If you play for ego purposes and you have to be better then everyone else etc etc ride the curve for a while..you will have a significant advantage for about a year over noob players and then they will bring casuals in line with ego players like yourself..then ride the next curve. That is MMO.

olemanwinter wrote: »

I don't think new players expect to be on an even footing with existing players, but I think they expect to be competitive.

Competitive? Can you name a single "popular" MMO that makes you competitive without extensive grind, be it for gear, stats, points or whatever the form of advancement is?
I can't think of one personally.
In fact i can name at least a dozen that do this exact same thing and are even far worse, yet they are more popular than ESO. Maybe in a different shape or form but nonetheless, principle remains the same.


I have played this game since 1st CBT, i followed it from ground up. However, i never played the PTS so i maybe don't get everything spot on in terms of general changes, do forgive me for that.
But again, this is my personal opinion. I am only expressing my views and comparisons and in my view.. What's coming up is a benefit rather than a bane and i can't wait.

CP is a system that gives players actual advancement post-max-level, rather than just an ability to wear better rags and some vanity stuff. It is something that will keep players engaged for a longer period of time, giving them an incentive to strive to be the best and maxed out. Which is also better for business.

Sure, existing players might not like it as they grew up in a slightly different environment.
Someone who comes not knowing any better or having any point of comparison will not give a skeever's arse. They will see it as current end-game and work towards it. And with B2P being imminent, they do need that incentive.
And do remember - this game is still in it's infancy, it doesn't have a established end-game system. It seems it's only just temporary until they find that golden apple. Almost any "experienced" MMO has gone through this stage, in the 1st year of release it is all trial-and-error. Some games succeed, some go down the drain.
What happens with ESO, only time will tell. And also, what people see in PTS is also subject to change, so it's not definitive proof that current PTS system will be Live as they see it now. It might still be tweaked and balanced right before launch.

Sacadon wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

Surely you can see how even if you just want to play the game for fun, it creates an impediment to grouping which is inhibits your fun!

It doesn't matter if you don't care if you are competitive if you desire to group and everyone grouping cares if you are competitive!

Again this is very simple, when it stops being fun I'll move on. BTW, I'm extremely competitive and heavily driven by the ceiling they just raised. I work 45+ hours a week but I'll still close that gap and be melting other players again in no time. Sure they'll get me too, but that's fun .

My thoughts exactly, finally a end-game that somewhat resembles an end-game. A form of advancement rather than just better gear.

Does the OP want us all to stop progressing after leaving the prison in cold harbor?

Why does it matter if a new player can't catch up because of a massive grind fest? That's the price you pay when you start playing a game like this later in the games life.

olemanwinter wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

They actually did not underestimate it, as it takes several months to get to Rank 14 legally.

What do you mean....legally?

As opposed to exploit grinding like Scorpiondrome.

There is a lot of leveling in the grey area between doing Caldwells and completing everything on all the zones and "exploit grinding".

You asked.

tplink3r1 wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Does the OP want us all to stop progressing after leaving the prison in cold harbor?

Why does it matter if a new player can't catch up because of a massive grind fest? That's the price you pay when you start playing a game like this later in the games life.

Theres a reason why they are called "super casuals", they want progression to be COMPLETELY remove from this game.

What a joke. If anything I'm a min/max hardcore player by comparison. I'm more likely to be one of the OP ones with thousands of CP....before being releveled.

What do I want? TO NOT BE THE ONLY PERSON PLAYING THE FREAKING GAME.

Go on the PTS and play against someone with 1000+ CP without any CP of your own. GO DO THAT....then come back and spout your nonsense drivel about "super casuals".

You want the game to be F2P? You want it do be dead? That's what's coming when existing players leave the game over time for a variety of reasons (death, jobs, money, boredom) and there are no new players because the game is absurdly unfriendly to new customers.

I'm not talking about now. I'm not talking about not progressing past "leaving the prison at cold harbor". Less stupid hyperbole please.

I'm talking about a year from now when people have thousands of CP. I'm talking about understanding now why in 12 months this game will be relaunched a 2nd time and be F2P.

Or instead, you can all be "shocked and dismayed" again when it happens like you were this time. lol.