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ZOS, this is how you should deal with the veteran ranks.
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CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Alphashado wrote: »
Not relevant to my point. I'm talking about content difficulty progression, not stats progression. If everything above VR2/VR3 was scaled down to Level 63, how would The Rift be more challenging than Deshaan?I usually dislike the suggestions of turning V1-V14 into Levels up to 63, but I think this one has some foundations. It's essentially the same as scaling everything back to 50, but keeps the Veteran-Ranked items valid by instead scaling back to 63. But if you are capping out at what was previously V2/V3, how do you measure progress through Cadwell's? The Rift would be no more difficult than Deshaan, and that would mean it wouldn't feel like you were "progressing" through the content.
Champion points are the new progression post 49.
None of that would change. The Rift would be exactly more challenging than Deshaan is right now. The only difference is that you would be level capped by the time you got there.
People are concerned about losing a sense of progression, but they fail to recognize that the Champion system is progression. If we drop the level cap to 50, then the Champion System will be the only form of progression after level 50. This conversion is exactly the same as dropping the cap to level 50 with the only exception being raising the cap to 63 in order to avoid having to scrap every item in the game above level 50 which is a monumental task.
If we drop the cap to 50, all of the content above level 50 would be only for earning Champion Points. What I am suggesting is a way for us to do the same thing w/o having to re itemize 2/3's of the programming. The idea is to keep it simple so that ZoS is more likely to actually make it happen.
Just to throw this out there, if you reach the level cap of post 50 content before even getting half way into that content, doesn't that make the rest of the content a little easy? I mostly did solo pve content early on and loved how vet zones were both challenging and allowed me to go anywhere and still get experience. With the change to vet ranks leveling with exp vet ranks were then limited to the 5 level range so I am unable to get much out of revisiting the zones I have out leveled and not finished.
If the level cap was changed to fit this not only would most vet zones be rendered worthless progression wise (because of the 5 level exp range) but also because you would out level your zone so quickly there would be little reason to stay and there wouldn't be much of a challenge. If from this example the Rift is still leveled to be more of a challenge than Deshaan, and if I was able to get exp form zones where I outleveled every mob after clearing the first town, then by the time I get to the Rift the only challenge I will find is in Craglorn or my factions last gold zone.0 -
Tapio75✭✭✭✭✭
✭There also has to be option to continue doing quests for ones own faction in these VR areas.. Perphaps a future expansion.>>PC-EU Mostly PVE. Played since BETA<<0 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alphashado wrote: »
Not relevant to my point. I'm talking about content difficulty progression, not stats progression. If everything above VR2/VR3 was scaled down to Level 63, how would The Rift be more challenging than Deshaan?I usually dislike the suggestions of turning V1-V14 into Levels up to 63, but I think this one has some foundations. It's essentially the same as scaling everything back to 50, but keeps the Veteran-Ranked items valid by instead scaling back to 63. But if you are capping out at what was previously V2/V3, how do you measure progress through Cadwell's? The Rift would be no more difficult than Deshaan, and that would mean it wouldn't feel like you were "progressing" through the content.
Champion points are the new progression post 49.
None of that would change. The Rift would be exactly more challenging than Deshaan is right now. The only difference is that you would be level capped by the time you got there.
People are concerned about losing a sense of progression, but they fail to recognize that the Champion system is progression. If we drop the level cap to 50, then the Champion System will be the only form of progression after level 50. This conversion is exactly the same as dropping the cap to level 50 with the only exception being raising the cap to 63 in order to avoid having to scrap every item in the game above level 50 which is a monumental task.
If we drop the cap to 50, all of the content above level 50 would be only for earning Champion Points. What I am suggesting is a way for us to do the same thing w/o having to re itemize 2/3's of the programming. The idea is to keep it simple so that ZoS is more likely to actually make it happen.
Just to throw this out there, if you reach the level cap of post 50 content before even getting half way into that content, doesn't that make the rest of the content a little easy? I mostly did solo pve content early on and loved how vet zones were both challenging and allowed me to go anywhere and still get experience. With the change to vet ranks leveling with exp vet ranks were then limited to the 5 level range so I am unable to get much out of revisiting the zones I have out leveled and not finished.
If the level cap was changed to fit this not only would most vet zones be rendered worthless progression wise (because of the 5 level exp range) but also because you would out level your zone so quickly there would be little reason to stay and there wouldn't be much of a challenge. If from this example the Rift is still leveled to be more of a challenge than Deshaan, and if I was able to get exp form zones where I outleveled every mob after clearing the first town, then by the time I get to the Rift the only challenge I will find is in Craglorn or my factions last gold zone.
This would already be the case if we removed Vet Ranks and made the level cap 50. Making it 63 instead of 50 would just make the conversion much easier because all the vet items in the game would still be used. No matter how you slice it, via lvl 50, or lvl 63, Silver/Gold would just be zones for us to farm CP. So there would still be huge incentive to be there because you need to complete all that stuff in order to gain Champion Points.
In regards to it not being much of a challenge, the zones would still be increasingly difficult as you advance through them. Just like they are right now. You would be level capped early, yes. But that is the point. There is really no other way to slice it. If Vet Ranks are removed, then we are going to have a lot of content to be used for nothing more than farming CP. But that is ok imo. The idea behind removing Vet Ranks is to make your character relevant at endgame w/o having to trudge through 130 levels of content first.
Edited by Alphashado on February 23, 2015 6:24PM0 -
Jaxsun✭✭✭✭Alphashado wrote: »Alphashado wrote: »
Not relevant to my point. I'm talking about content difficulty progression, not stats progression. If everything above VR2/VR3 was scaled down to Level 63, how would The Rift be more challenging than Deshaan?I usually dislike the suggestions of turning V1-V14 into Levels up to 63, but I think this one has some foundations. It's essentially the same as scaling everything back to 50, but keeps the Veteran-Ranked items valid by instead scaling back to 63. But if you are capping out at what was previously V2/V3, how do you measure progress through Cadwell's? The Rift would be no more difficult than Deshaan, and that would mean it wouldn't feel like you were "progressing" through the content.
Champion points are the new progression post 49.
None of that would change. The Rift would be exactly more challenging than Deshaan is right now. The only difference is that you would be level capped by the time you got there.
People are concerned about losing a sense of progression, but they fail to recognize that the Champion system is progression. If we drop the level cap to 50, then the Champion System will be the only form of progression after level 50. This conversion is exactly the same as dropping the cap to level 50 with the only exception being raising the cap to 63 in order to avoid having to scrap every item in the game above level 50 which is a monumental task.
If we drop the cap to 50, all of the content above level 50 would be only for earning Champion Points. What I am suggesting is a way for us to do the same thing w/o having to re itemize 2/3's of the programming. The idea is to keep it simple so that ZoS is more likely to actually make it happen.
Just to throw this out there, if you reach the level cap of post 50 content before even getting half way into that content, doesn't that make the rest of the content a little easy? I mostly did solo pve content early on and loved how vet zones were both challenging and allowed me to go anywhere and still get experience. With the change to vet ranks leveling with exp vet ranks were then limited to the 5 level range so I am unable to get much out of revisiting the zones I have out leveled and not finished.
If the level cap was changed to fit this not only would most vet zones be rendered worthless progression wise (because of the 5 level exp range) but also because you would out level your zone so quickly there would be little reason to stay and there wouldn't be much of a challenge. If from this example the Rift is still leveled to be more of a challenge than Deshaan, and if I was able to get exp form zones where I outleveled every mob after clearing the first town, then by the time I get to the Rift the only challenge I will find is in Craglorn or my factions last gold zone.
This would already be the case if we removed Vet Ranks and made the level cap 50. Making it 63 instead of 50 would just make the conversion much easier because all the vet items in the game would still be used. No matter how you slice it, via lvl 50, or lvl 63, Silver/Gold would just be zones for us to farm CP. So there would still be huge incentive to be there because you need to complete all that stuff in order to gain Champion Points.
In regards to it not being much of a challenge, the zones would still be increasingly difficult as you advance through them. Just like they are right now. You would be level capped early, yes. But that is the point. There is really no other way to slice it. If Vet Ranks are removed, then we are going to have a lot of content to be used for nothing more than farming CP. But that is ok imo. The idea behind removing Vet Ranks is to make your character relevant at endgame w/o having to trudge through 130 levels of content first.
Once again, +1 for being on top if it!
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Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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That is exactly true. As long as they remember this, however they go about it should be fine.Alphashado wrote: »The idea behind removing Vet Ranks is to make your character relevant at endgame w/o having to trudge through 130 levels of content first.
I seem to recall them saying they were planning on doing seasonal gear. If they flattened to 50 instead of 63, then each tier of Veteran gear could be translated to the first few seasons of gear. That would maintain the gear, but also slot everything in at 50. What do you think?UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭I understand your OP but dont agree with the numbers.
You get 5 zones+ standard to do Level 1-50
You get 5 zones+ In cadwells silver to do Vet rank 1-5
You get 5 zones+ In cadwells gold to do Vet rank 6-10
Plus all the armour and weapons jump at 2 levels per rank....not one.
So you need levels 1-78 as a straight conversion (14x2 +50)
This then ties in with all the crafting materials and weapon/armour stats.
BUT..whats the points when cadwells silver or gold will now be optional and levels 50-78 (Vet) non existant or redundant.
Everyone complained they hated having to do cadwells silver gold.
You got what you wanted.
Anything beyond 1 faction....will now be CS points i theory.Edited by Rune_Relic on February 23, 2015 6:54PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »I understand your OP but dont agree with the numbers.
You get 5 zones+ standard to do Level 1-50
You get 5 zones+ In cadwells silver to do Vet rank 1-5
You get 5 zones+ In cadwells gold to do Vet rank 6-10
Plus all the armour and weapons jump at 2 levels per rank....not one.
So you need levels 1-78 as a straight conversion (14x2 +50)
This then ties in with all the crafting materials and weapon/armour stats.
BUT..whats the points when cadwells silver or gold will now be optional and levels 50-78 (Vet) non existant or redundant.
Everyone complained they hated having to do cadwells silver gold.
You got what you wanted.
Anything beyond 1 faction....will now be CS points i theory.
lvl 50 and V1 are the same thing. So level 50-63 would be a straight conversion, not 50-64. I'm not sure what the advantage would be in multiplying 50+ X2 instead.
The idea is to get the level cap as close to level 50 as possible while still retaining all of the existing gear and items in the game. So level 50-76 would work, but it would just be postponing the inevitable level cap unnecessarily. That being said, level 76 as a cap would still be better than level 180, which is basically where we are now with V14 since each VR is roughly 10 lvls. V1-V14 = 130 levels + 50 = 180
Also, you are forgetting about Craglorn.I seem to recall them saying they were planning on doing seasonal gear. If they flattened to 50 instead of 63, then each tier of Veteran gear could be translated to the first few seasons of gear. That would maintain the gear, but also slot everything in at 50. What do you think?
That is an interesting idea, but they would have to either make 14 seasons of gear, or lump the seasonal gear into brackets consisting of 7 Vet Ranks each for example. Like season one would be the old V1-V7 gear and season two would be V8-V14 gear. But you would still have 14 different sets that increased in stats for each rank unless you eliminated everything but V7 and V14 items. So that would still leave ZoS with the monumental task of changing/removing almost all of the Vet programming.
They could implement seasonal gear as part of the suggested conversion by making season #1 gear equal to the best lvl 63 gear, and season #2 even better than season #1. So season #1 gear would be like gold level 63 gear, and Season #2 would be awarded through AvA or Trials etc.
Edited by Alphashado on February 23, 2015 8:04PM0 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They should stretch out V1-V14 to make levels 50-100. After that, they should never add more ranks again. And allow players to start building champion points from level 1. And maybe stretch out the attributes to level 100 as well.
I'd say 50-15. 50 levels for each of Cadwell's Gold/Silver or whichever way one wants to spend their gaming time.The Moot Councillor0 -
I_killed_Vivec✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Progression is an interesting point.
From what I've read it seems that a lot of people don't want progression. They want to be in godlike mode as soon as they reach level 50. They want to run around Craglorn, be competitive in PvP, run all the trials - have all the "interesting" stuff available at level 50. I don't see how this works with CP - a brand new level 50 will not be able to compete with one with a hundred CP (absolutely no different from VR1 competing with VR14).
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Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I_killed_Vivec wrote: »Progression is an interesting point.
From what I've read it seems that a lot of people don't want progression. They want to be in godlike mode as soon as they reach level 50. They want to run around Craglorn, be competitive in PvP, run all the trials - have all the "interesting" stuff available at level 50. I don't see how this works with CP - a brand new level 50 will not be able to compete with one with a hundred CP (absolutely no different from VR1 competing with VR14).
Not godlike and not everything, just the possibility to be reasonably viable. Viable for Lower Craglorn, but not Upper. Viable for HRC and AA, but not SO. Viable for the first Silver and Gold zones, but not the fifth. Viable in Cyrodiil based on their skill and Alliance Rank, not just their VR stats. That's why ZOS want to remove VRs - to make the gap narrower. There will always be a separation between a new 50 and someone with lots of CPs, but the new 50 shouldn't have to level through endgame content; what sort of MMO requires you to level through its endgame content?Edited by Enodoc on February 24, 2015 10:11AMUESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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Exactly my point, the veteran ranks and veteran zones were matched to each other, and the OP idea of just making latter quicker earned levels will cause mismatchings. Especially now that the latest XP-for-vet-ranks nerf has people easily earn one veteran rank per map (back when it was still 1.44 million expees, a map got my main 80% or so to the next v rank, and had to make up the difference doing cyrodil, now my secondary character gets more then one V rank per map done...)Rune_Relic wrote: »I understand your OP but dont agree with the numbers.
You get 5 zones+ standard to do Level 1-50
You get 5 zones+ In cadwells silver to do Vet rank 1-5
You get 5 zones+ In cadwells gold to do Vet rank 6-10
Plus all the armour and weapons jump at 2 levels per rank....not one.
So you need levels 1-78 as a straight conversion (14x2 +50)
This then ties in with all the crafting materials and weapon/armour stats.
BUT..whats the points when cadwells silver or gold will now be optional and levels 50-78 (Vet) non existant or redundant.
Everyone complained they hated having to do cadwells silver gold.
You got what you wanted.
Anything beyond 1 faction....will now be CS points i theory.
And like I mentioned... no way they'll waste resources patching up an system that's on the way out anyhow. Just hold on until the last phase of the champion system rolls around...
True - for characters. But now I wonder... are they the same thing for gear too? ...or is the V1 gear a tad better then the level-50 gear? Has someone ever checked? It might be good to know...Alphashado wrote: »lvl 50 and V1 are the same thing.
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Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
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.... We are talking about the final phase here. This conversion is a suggestion for Phase 4. I am suggesting a viable way to Implement Phase 4 w/o having to remove and rewrite 2/3ds of the programming. If they cap it at level 50, then every item in the game from V2-V14 will have to be removed or restructured. This includes gear, weapons, potions, food, and most complex of all - crafting components. Everything about crafting in ESO would have to be completely redone. With the conversion I am suggesting, the only thing that would have to change would be the wording.TheShadowScout wrote: »And like I mentioned... no way they'll waste resources patching up an system that's on the way out anyhow. Just hold on until the last phase of the champion system rolls around...
It is exactly the same. Everything about level 50 is the same as V1. Some gear/items say V1, some gear/items say level 50, but the stats are exactly the same. There is even two separate teirs for crafted items. Level 50 items require a different type of materials found in coldharbor, yet V1 items require materials found in V1 zones. Still, the gear is exactly the same. I imagine it was done this way so that players could wear level 50 gear before they complete the main storyline and have access to the V1 zones.TheShadowScout wrote: »
True - for characters. But now I wonder... are they the same thing for gear too? ...or is the V1 gear a tad better then the level-50 gear? Has someone ever checked? It might be good to know...Alphashado wrote: »lvl 50 and V1 are the same thing.
Edited by Alphashado on February 24, 2015 2:05PM1