Stupid question is stupid.

Are there players of any game that like cheaters?

okay Ill bite..

I used to play an MMO called Nexus TK. Ancient by comparison but i was a lot of fun. The only trouble in the begining was there was a duplication bug.

With this bug you could duplicate anything you could stand on. IN that game you could drop gold and pick it back up so guess what everyone did. Now imagine how badly the gold issues got. After a while the game master decided there was only one thing to do.

Every account got wiped to 1k gold and deleted every item in the bags and banks of everybody's account. They called it the cataclysm and still to this day those few who still play still think of it as the worst thing that ever happened.

Imagine all the rare weapons and armor that disappeared. Weapons of such incalculable power and rarity and armor so hard to get that it takes months to created and enchant. All thanks to one little bug that duplicated whatever you stand on.

If that happened in this game I don't think many would stay. Gamers are not nearly as patient as that current period of gaming. I wouldn't mind being able to spend weeks creating such powerful swords and armor. But that is another conversation.

BigM wrote: »

I get the feeling the OP wasn't around during beta and when the game released. Why do you think so many left the game in the first place? Why do you think the game got a bad rep? Why do you think they are changing everything with the game from how you pay and play?

If you don't think that is why cheating is bad then there is no hope you will ever understand.

Being the old man that has played these games from Ultima Online beta to all the one's that have come after. It saddens me a thread like this would even have to be made. In the old days this wouldn't of even been thought of. It is wrong and hurts the game end of story.

Was here at release, and around for ultima and before...it may have been why it got a bad rep because of a pervasive negative mentality....but it's not the first example in the history of people where an incorrect pervasive negative mentality has done more harm than good....

TicToc wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO wrote: »

The anticheat resources arent hampering new content to begin with. And the reason people hate cheaters is at the heart of every game is competition. Pushing to be the best at what you do. Ignoring the cheating totally invalidates this drive abd makes the experience trivial.

Cheating in any multiplayer game setting should be frowned on and actively stopped. Its the same even in non computer games. Would you keep playing a game of risk with a guy that constantly gives himself three extra free dice rolls or two extra units each turn that you playing the gamr by the rules dont get? Nope because that advantage garuntees no matter what the best youll likely get to is second place. And lets be honest with ourselves no matter how much we say we arent we are all in gaming as much to win as we are to have fun.

We must hang around different people everyone I play with doesn't care about winning ...

This comment really convinces me that this is just a troll thread.

The post you commented on was not about MMO's, but cheating in all games in general. Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that not only you, but all of your friends are fine with people cheating in games because none of you care if you win? No. I just don't buy it. That is just ridiculous. I understand not caring if you win or lose in a fair game, but no one plays a game that is impossible to win because someone else is cheating. What fun is that? It's not, and you stop playing games that aren't fun. You may feel that it is a hollow victory for them, but it still steals any chance of winning away from you, and completely wastes your time. Heck, for many cheaters, they don't care as much about winning as they do about ruining your game.

Faugaun wrote: »

If they mine nodes and sell in ah to make gold then ah materials are cheaper for me...not more expensive...now I do admit if they are doing this and the result is there are so many that it gets in the way of me playing the game...then perhaps there is a problem.

And that is just a selfish, self-centered point of view. Bots make things cheaper for you at an AH, so it's a good thing. Many people play MMO's specifically for the harvesting, crafting, and commerce parts of the games, and bots ruin it for them...but it's OK because YOU don't care about those things.

Botters also can prevent, or at least seriously interfere with you getting drops, attaining achievements, or completing quest objectives. And the negative impact of cheating in PvP should be more than obvious.

You don't buy that a bunch of rpers are not interested in win/lose aspect? Yeah they play the game and do dungeons etc...but win/lose is of minimal importance to most if not all (at least this is the perception in have). First I didn't say bots were a good thing....I just said they didn't negatively impact me by farming (except in the case that, like in launch, they are so prevalent that they prevent people from accessing the nodes...this is not a problem with cheating or bots rather it is a problem of too high a population is early starter zones and a high prevalence of bots. However, this is only one example where prevalence was the issue....had the same bots been an issue in gw1 at release then no one we would have noticed ...this is due to game design where the out of city content was instanced (heavily, if I recall it was just you and your group in every combat zone. So the system could be designed better but its not necessarily the botsnthat are problematic ....just the perceived problem, while game design shares some of the responsibility....

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

I am thoroughly confused about this...for decades I have watched forums for various games and they player sentiment is mostly the same:

Cheaters/botters...etc.... Are evil/bad/aweful/deserve to be banned/hated etc...

You know for a game like StarCraft where you could glitch the system to allow minerals to be mined by a cc much quicker by moving it To a block adjacent to a mine...yeah there is a problem with that...maybe....I mean seriously though if someone has to do that to beat me then who really won?

In a mmorpg where there is a ceiling and a cap on the power level that characters can obtain then who cares if someone uses a bot to get there quicker/ or with less effort? Who cares if they mine nodes or do other activities to progress more quickly? If they mine nodes and sell in ah to make gold then ah materials are cheaper for me...not more expensive...now I do admit if they are doing this and the result is there are so many that it gets in the way of me playing the game...then perhaps there is a problem. You know I don't like seeing bots running around everywhere....but what about the players grinding inside instances to level faster than other players? I don't see them and they have no impact on me ...so they get to max level before me....who cares? They also missed all the content that they paid for and I didn't...who won? Oh they can now enter end level content faster than me? So what? I will probably be more skilled when I reach that content because I have actually practiced and learned how to apply my skills in a diverse set of conditions...who won?

Really who are cheaters cheating? You? Or themselves?

So someone please explain to me why this is such a big deal what other people do when it has no impact on your playing experience?

I guess you wernt here at launch were every solo instance had a dozen people in it and half were bots who auto attacked to loot boss spawns; it was very difficult to get enough damage for kill credit to complete the SOLO difficulty instance. If you were around it should not be a mystery why having the nodes dry because of botters and the chat spammed full of gold sellers is a terrible system. one major reason for cheaters is to Sell in game items via 3rd party for real money, they spamed chat badly for months and ruined starter zones completely. clearly you have no clue what unchecked cheaters can looks like.

just because you havent noticed a problem dosent mean it dosent exist. thank goodness most do have a problem with it and zos managed to crack down enough that people like you can come on many months later and post that they dont see any problems.

Love how you presume I wasnt here at launch...I also believe there are plenty of other solutions and it doesn't necessarily invoke the need for players to hate cheaters....

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Noone likes cheaters except cheaters, I would think...

Most of us think they are going to burn in a very special level of Hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.

Ok, that was funny

arqe wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

So someone please explain to me why this is such a big deal what other people do when it has no impact on your playing experience?

I wonder if this is your first mmo experience ?

Nope 25 years of gaming...been here for ultima, eq, gw1, wow, Warhammer online, the secret world, eso...probably a few others I forget in the mmo genera, prior to mmo I played muds primarily one called Rock, but about 10 of those also...then plenty of other genera beyond that as well.

AngryNord wrote: »

I guess the OP was busted as a cheater and now tries to talk himself out of it...

Nope, don't cheat, don't need to or desire to...and if you or some kid in 《INSERT COUNTRY HERE》does it doesn't bother me.

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

I mean if you cheat long enough you will get bored of having the superior ultimate power ...and move on...the rest of us can enjoy our content...what if a game company took a radically different approach and hosted a "cheaters server" where the cheaters could go and cheat their hearts away, while on non cheaters servers cheating is punishable? This creates a thriving non black market cheaters world...the developer can monitor all the cheats and code in detection techniques for the other servers ... So they get more info about cheats and can more easily enforce no cheat rules on designated servwr

Robbmrp wrote: »

Well said.

The only impact that bots have on my game is the constant whispers/emails to buy gold from them. Other than that harassment there's really no impact on my game playing.

Yeah the whispers/emails are annoying but if they are ignored they will move on. This also seems more like a spam issue than a cheaters issue...and better spam controls could help with this.

jluceyub17_ESO wrote: »

Botters are just annoying to see in the game world and negatively impact the game economy so that it's harder for regular players to make money by farming.

Cheating generally refers more to PvP players who use macros or addons that give them a competitive advantage.

Most players don't mind grinders, but I could see how players that just want to quest through the zones would be less than happy with grinders who wipe out all the enemies in a quest area making it harder to complete the quest.

How do botters negatively impact the game economy? They produce a surplus of items and flood the market...simple supply and demand suggests that this reduces the prices in the store for everyone else ... Its like the illegal aliens argument in the USA ...."they are bad for the economy because they take all the jobs...." Never mind its then low paying tedious jobs that no one else wants anyways... The only thing I have against illegal aliens is that they entered the country illegally and thus they are criminals...we don't want criminals here...but do they hurt the economy? No.

So if they make prices cheaper then standard gold loot from normal play is more valuable and buys you more...simple supply and demand.

Regarding PvP ...if removing all challenge by using macros and addons for competitive advantage is what you need to beat me then who really won? I promise you these people will get bored with their competitive advantage and move on...and if all players can do it equally without fear of developer retribution then it may not even be a competitive advantage...again who cares? Does not hurt me, the only person being cheated is the cheater.

Now I agree if the grinding bots are so prevalent that it impacts my ability to quest then there is a problem...but maybe its there are too many players on a shard...or maybe its the reward for that particular content is much greater than it should be and some balancing needs to occur...if super duper exp grind spot appears tomorrow ....then all the bots will go there and it's no longer super duper exp grind spot....Nerf the exp there thank your free labor for finding a hole in the system and move on...in the meantime while all the bots are competing for the grind spot resources (which are diminished because so many people try to access them)....then the rest of the world if not free for me to explore....again it minimally impacts me...no biggie...

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

I am thoroughly confused about this...for decades I have watched forums for various games and they player sentiment is mostly the same:

Cheaters/botters...etc.... Are evil/bad/aweful/deserve to be banned/hated etc...

You know for a game like StarCraft where you could glitch the system to allow minerals to be mined by a cc much quicker by moving it To a block adjacent to a mine...yeah there is a problem with that...maybe....I mean seriously though if someone has to do that to beat me then who really won?

In a mmorpg where there is a ceiling and a cap on the power level that characters can obtain then who cares if someone uses a bot to get there quicker/ or with less effort? Who cares if they mine nodes or do other activities to progress more quickly? If they mine nodes and sell in ah to make gold then ah materials are cheaper for me...not more expensive...now I do admit if they are doing this and the result is there are so many that it gets in the way of me playing the game...then perhaps there is a problem. You know I don't like seeing bots running around everywhere....but what about the players grinding inside instances to level faster than other players? I don't see them and they have no impact on me ...so they get to max level before me....who cares? They also missed all the content that they paid for and I didn't...who won? Oh they can now enter end level content faster than me? So what? I will probably be more skilled when I reach that content because I have actually practiced and learned how to apply my skills in a diverse set of conditions...who won?

Really who are cheaters cheating? You? Or themselves?

So someone please explain to me why this is such a big deal what other people do when it has no impact on your playing experience?

That's like asking why husbands/wives/boyfriends/girlfriends frown upon cheating.

I don't get that one either...except they are jealous types ...its not a problem with the act its a problem with self and lack of confidence. Many people are afraid that if their spouse cheats then they will leave (or they feel as though they are not enough). This jealousy and lack of self confidence and lack of trusting your partner to actually love you is a much bigger issue than whatever the people do...

Being paranoid isn't the same as being wrong.

par·a·noi·a
ˌperəˈnoiə/
noun
noun: paranoia
a mental condition characterized by delusions of persecution, unwarranted jealousy, or exaggerated self-importance, typically elaborated into an organized system. It may be an aspect of chronic personality disorder, of drug abuse, or of a serious condition such as schizophrenia in which the person loses touch with reality.
synonyms: persecution complex, delusions, obsession, psychosis
"her husband had concocted a cruel scheme to inflict her with paranoia"
suspicion and mistrust of people or their actions without evidence or justification.
"the global paranoia about hackers and viruses"

Again if you need a phone app to spy on someone you have way bigger problems...how about having a sit down conversation....and actually you know talking about your concerns?

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Example:
You think you've found a nice group for a group dungeon or two, only to find out they're a bunch of self proclaimed 'hardcore elite players' who proceed to not only cheat/exploit every boss they can, but have the nerve to be completely rude and derogatory when it's suggested that if they're even half as good as they say they are they should have no problem completing the content in the manner it was designed.

It is this sort of cheater/exploiter I have the greatest problems with. It this kind of selfish, rude, childish player that has a negative impact on the player community and game as a whole, and is definitely not okay.

I think (at least from what I have experienced in MMOs) that the majority of people typically find a group of similar minded people and spend 90% of their time with them. There are both the type of people who don't mind shortcutting bosses and those that vehemently refuse to do such activity...it doesn't make it wrong... I do think when forming a group if you plan to shortcut or desire not to this should be disclosed when inviting people (as a courtesy). The key is better communication.

Kronosphere wrote: »

ok so if a billion botters flood the market with ore etc and the price plummets. if i happen to have earned gold from mining ore and selling it i am now going to have to work and waste that much more time than before to profit.

also according to your logic paying real money to get max level and the best gear all yellow is ok? the point is and the reason people dont like it imo is, why should they get the rewards without doing the work and putting in the effort? It takes away from the people who DO actually acheive things. The only place it doesnt matter is singleplayer games.

@Faugaun

If the game sold a billion copies....well thats a game I would have to play cause they have like 50 billion to deck it out with awesomeness (OK so 40 billion in profit and 10 billion to deck it out (just on box sales)). How does it hurt you if someone else buys the best gear with real money? Yeah perhaps its one less in the guild trader system....you can still go play the content and acquire it yourself...I mean take real life ...do you get outraged when someone wins the 300million dollar powerball cause now they have all the money? They didn't have to work for it but you have to work to put bread on the table....oh no let's rage against lottery winners ....those horrible horrible people /sarcasm ... I mean really even if they cannot buy with real money there will always be someone who's got something you do not at the end level. Sounds like people have jealousy problems and a disgusting desire to show off their pixels...which is really bragging about what? Yeah if someone wants to pay for black market items go for it, IDC....now I don't think the devs should do this because that creates a conflict of interest and leads to bad development.

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

LOL idc how cheaters enjoy the game..but bro

ECONOMY...full set dwemer motif 1k gg...no loot would be worth

Sure it could impact the economy...but limiting daily exchanges (kinda already I'm place with the 30 simultaneous items per guild) can add some robustness to the system....that said would you really complain about full dwemer motif for the price of 4 cyrodil daily quests gold reward? I mean obviously if you did you could go find the drops yourself...but it's not all doom and despair.

wOOOOt_of_SD wrote: »

This is a stupid question.

Cheating in any way, in a game where people compete, is cheating other players.
Players who do not cheat, do not like those who do.

Its personal, so don't cheat!

Go cheat in single player games - I dont give a crap!

Ok , I'll give you an example of a really satisfying story involving cheaters....now its not a mmo but the same concepts apply (in PvP perhaps, and maybe in PvE as well). I used to play StarCraft (was actually pretty darn good at it) cheating was very prevalent (the cc mineral glitch, and map hacks showing where enemies were without fog of war, to name a couple). Now me and some buddies...well we didn't cheat, and we would often play 2vs6 or 3 vs 5 matches vs pugs...anyways like I said cheating was prevalent and often these underdog matches where you are playing handicapped would have 1-2 enemies using map and or resource hack...and others. So what did we do? We l2p, we would beat them anyways ad out play them even with fog of war. It is always really funny how pissed hackers get when a non hacker owns them. I think one of my partners I played with ...he and I had something like 50 wins to 10 losses on underdog fights like this. Probably 50% of those had glitcher/hackers for opponents. What I learned is hackers/cheaters are lazy and rely on their cheats to win...a skilled player will more often than not outplay the hacker under these conditions.

I am of course ignoring stat altering hacks ...those are wrong and should not be allowed...but botting to get better gear? Pfft, I'll eat him alive in greens cause I'm better.

Armitas wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

who cares if someone uses a bot to get there quicker/ or with less effort? Who cares if they mine nodes or do other activities to progress more quickly? If they mine nodes and sell in ah to make gold then ah materials are cheaper for me...not more expensive...now I do admit if they are doing this and the result is there are so many that it gets in the way of me playing the game...then perhaps there is a problem.

What happens when you try to sell the same thing while not cheating? A botter can sell a potion for 1g if he wants because he got it for 0 time actually spent. You however have to price it at an amount worth the time you actually spent to make it.

Then I kill an NPC for 6 gold and buy 3 potions and a chest piece and go do a dungeon ....so I can now focus on the more difficult tasks instead of mundane resource collection....if a niche is occupied by someone I don't wish to out compete then I go find a new niche...simple

Sorry, my bots are there where you are trying to kill npcs for Gold. You will have to find a better way to make money because I have necessarily put all of my bot where it is best to make money. Where ever it is efficient to make wealth that is where the bots will be. Anyone wanting to make wealth without boting now has to spend more time at an efficient spot, due to sharing it with the bots, or move to an inefficient spot an naturally spend more time. Either way you will have to spend an increased amount of time to achieve wealth, whereas the cheater has to spend 0 actual time. The cheater can set his own price because he spent no actual time achieving his wealth, while you have to set a price worth the time you spent acquiring it.

Now as for the person who put points into alchemy and actually wanted to use it to sell potions, he now has to find a different way to enjoy the game because we have allowed cheaters to roam free.

Your bots can get in my solo instance? That's impressive ....if items are of minimal value why do you care about building vast digital wealth? ....I mean yeah enough to expand bank size and buy/feed horses and repair gear....then everything else is cheap due to supply ... Forgetting instanced content for a minute...just the one time quest rewards from a single character has bought an insane amount of inventory space and fed 18 horses daily....if the gear was cheaper I would have plenty more gold to buy mount skins...gold is a non issue currently and would be an even greater non issue with increased supply.



Anyways I'm apparently way behind from sleeping....will catch page 3 shortly

Faugaun wrote: »

Your bots can get in my solo instance? That's impressive ....if items are of minimal value why do you care about building vast digital wealth? ....I mean yeah enough to expand bank size and buy/feed horses and repair gear....then everything else is cheap due to supply ... Forgetting instanced content for a minute...just the one time quest rewards from a single character has bought an insane amount of inventory space and fed 18 horses daily....if the gear was cheaper I would have plenty more gold to buy mount skins...gold is a non issue currently and would be an even greater non issue with increased supply.

What solo instance? You mean Craglorn adventure zones? I'm afraid they nerfed the heck out of any instanced dungeon drops and xp because people were farming them solo. Like I said, you will either have to farm efficient areas and deal with the bots, or farm inefficient areas and deal with them naturally taking more time. Your use of solo instance would be a case of inefficient areas.

Believe me, I actually farm mobs for gold and gear to vendor, and glyphs to decon, I know where to go to get it and it's not soloing an instanced dungeons, it's open world areas. You have to do it naked or you lose 2k to repair costs.

Rare items will still be rare, and consequently expensive, not everything can be botted, and not everything drops from botted locations.

Cheaters have impact on everyone's gaming experience.

Take the game during early access and a few weeks in. There where so many bots at certain places that you couldn't progress. When it's to many players around you can at least group them, rage about it and make sure every is able to finish. Try doing that with 15 bots auto attacking in the air. Something that also ruins immersion greatly.

People botting, exploiting, duplicating or whatever for gold and items also ruins it for me. They have negative impact on the market and the economy. The price of certain exclusive items goes through the roof due to filthy rich cheaters, punishing buyers. Than there's honest sellers, they cant make gold from certain items they farmed the normal way, because exploits flooded the market.

In PvP you're directly affected by cheats. It kills fun and game play period, when someone is immortal or deals 900% more dmg. It prevents you from playing the game as intended, in worst case. There's also bugs and glitches, skills not behaving the way they should. I can name at least 20 so far in ESO, some still not patched like the purge+DoT bug. So people abuse it for easy win, forcing the enemy to do the same to keep up. Creating very crap PvP and community.

Pretty sure non mmo players don't like cheaters as well

TehMagnus wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

I am thoroughly confused about this...for decades I have watched forums for various games and they player sentiment is mostly the same:

Cheaters/botters...etc.... Are evil/bad/aweful/deserve to be banned/hated etc...

You know for a game like StarCraft where you could glitch the system to allow minerals to be mined by a cc much quicker by moving it To a block adjacent to a mine...yeah there is a problem with that...maybe....I mean seriously though if someone has to do that to beat me then who really won?

Well the game will tell you who won, usually you get a "Victory" message on the screen, so if the guy who glitched the system gets the message after destroying your base, he won .

"But in my book, I won" <= your book doesn't count for many people, leaderboards do.

Faugaun wrote: »

They also missed all the content that they paid for and I didn't...who won?

We did since we didn't waste time doing generic content we have done in hundreds of other games before and we got faster to the part that interests us.

Faugaun wrote: »

Oh they can now enter end level content faster than me? So what? I will probably be more skilled when I reach that content because I have actually practiced and learned how to apply my skills in a diverse set of conditions...who won?

They/we did, you're practicing in easy content that poses no challenge so you won't be more skilled because the content is so easy it doesn't push you to actually learn how to play your class effectively nor does the user interface. While you're taking your time leveling up in easy content, those guys are getting destroyed in end game content and forced to learn how to play. By the time you reach them, they will know how to play better than you because they have been experiencing challenging content for a longer time.

Faugaun wrote: »

Really who are cheaters cheating? You? Or themselves?

So someone please explain to me why this is such a big deal what other people do when it has no impact on your playing experience?

Botters:
Are just running a program to either level up or get materials. They are getting advantaged without even playing the game whereas other players have to waste countless hours to do what they do. Some MMOs have allowed botting, and in that case it's fair game, as long as everybody can do it, there is no issue since everybody is at the same level, but in the end it makes for a poor game which is why it is mostly not allowed, thus people following the rules are disadvantaged compared to those who don't and it impacts their playing experience.

Grinders:
Aren't cheating, there is grinding in 99% of MMORPGS, in some of them you even HAVE to grind and it's almost always faster than questing, your assumption that grinders know less about the game than you in the end is flawed though and it's not a matter of impact on experience, it's a matter of people playing how they want and getting to the content they want. Only angry people think grinding is cheating.

Exploiters:
People who use bugs to deal extra damage in competitive game-play are getting better times with cheats so it impacts the experience of people who play fair.

So yeah, botters and exploiters deserve to burn in the deepest parts of hell 8) along with the argonians.

I've bolded my point, the only reason it is a problem is because we choose/allow it to be a problem...if we stopped worrying about it so much then it would be a non issue and people could choose or not choose to participate in parts on the system that they find desirable or undesirable.

To respond to some of your other points ...yeah in StarCraft I got that victory logo a lot..even when playing against cheaters ...I'm not talking about grinders, they of course develop skills and know how to play...I'm talking about cheaters who say bot to end level...they will have no skill. I do not think the botter will gain additional skill by reaching the end content sooner...

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Because a game, at core, is defined by the GAME RULES. If one player can bypass the game rules (cheating), then it is no longer a game.

But if the mentality shifts to one where it's not a big deal and people don't get their feelings hurt by it...then game companies stop worrying about it and then anyone is free to use the same means (if they choose) without fear of repercussions. Again, its this irrational hatred of cheaters which drives the problems, not the cheating itself.

Calrid wrote: »

Er try playing any game and see just how much people love it when someone cheats.

Their are coded of conduct style rules and these forbid cheating, exploiting or any form of dubious game harrassment and so on. Some people are rubbish at the game, some people are lazy, and some people are just not very nice people. But all cheaters are disliked for the very simple reason that you would rather not play if the other player had loaded dice in Monopoly why would you play if cheaters prospered in PVP either? Fortunately they are rare, but they certainly exists and there certainly are still cheats and exploits in the game regardless of what Zenimax tell you or anyone else. If something gives you a perfect chance every time to take someone else or cannot be interrupted or stopped in any way whether that's several players spamming CC or someone using a hack it all goes on and such people are worthless, and do nothing to encourage anyone to stay in PVP.

That kind of PvP encourages me to build a counter build and go hunting, not get upset...if there is no counter build then that is a game design flaw, but do not hate other players for using the resources avaloaable to them.

Varicite wrote: »

Are there players of any game that like cheaters?

I like to beat them its enjoyable and challenging, and I do not dislike them.

wafcatb14_ESO wrote: »

While I despise bots in every game I play. at the same time it is fun trying to find ways to kill them. Once I dragged a pack of wolves halfway across a map to get them in the range of the botters AOE spam and then watch him die .

Killing botters is like free content in the game and adds hours of insta gratfication and replay value, something ESO lacks as a MMO.

I would lol as he died from the wolves...that's great entertainment!

Theosis wrote: »

okay Ill bite..

I used to play an MMO called Nexus TK. Ancient by comparison but i was a lot of fun. The only trouble in the begining was there was a duplication bug.

With this bug you could duplicate anything you could stand on. IN that game you could drop gold and pick it back up so guess what everyone did. Now imagine how badly the gold issues got. After a while the game master decided there was only one thing to do.

Every account got wiped to 1k gold and deleted every item in the bags and banks of everybody's account. They called it the cataclysm and still to this day those few who still play still think of it as the worst thing that ever happened.

Imagine all the rare weapons and armor that disappeared. Weapons of such incalculable power and rarity and armor so hard to get that it takes months to created and enchant. All thanks to one little bug that duplicated whatever you stand on.

If that happened in this game I don't think many would stay. Gamers are not nearly as patient as that current period of gaming. I wouldn't mind being able to spend weeks creating such powerful swords and armor. But that is another conversation.

So the problem here was not the people duplicating things, it was the irrational action taken by the Dev in response to dislike of cheating....cheating did not cause this problem, fear of cheating caused the problem in this case by a Dev with a lot of power and poor forethought.

Messy1 wrote: »

Okay, I care if bots are in the game and I care if people cheat . . . it is NOT ACCEPTABLE and RUINS THE GAME.

Logic behind this statment:

1) When you play dungeons and dragons, magic the gathering, chess, hearts, uno, electronic monopoly, soccer, football hockey, any competitive game, is cheating acceptable? NO proof = Lance Armstrong

2) When you play against a computer or AI in RPGs and MMORPGs do you like it when the task is impossible or there is a design flaw in the game that impedes your progress or makes it super easy to complete the game? Older games YES because they were flawed and could not be fixed easily, newer games NO because they can be fixed and systems can be improved

3) Do you like the immersion breaking and potentially harmful threats that bots pose? NO

4) Do you remember when this game first launched and bots were rampant and you got whispers from computers and zone chat looked like this "*>*>*>*>*>*mmowin.com $10 for 50k gold<*<*<*<*<*<*" ? YES, I remember and NO I did not like the zone chat spam

5) Should people be rewarded for exploiting a broken system in any environment? Usually NO, sometimes YES

6) Are people rewarded for exploiting a broken system? YES, just look at some aspects of the US government.

7) Finally, do you like people or "bots" hacking in to your electronic bank account and stealing all your money? OF COURSE NOT, hacking an online game and hacking personal identification systems are similar excercises in maliciousness and generally ruin people's lives/fun

1) MMO's, while they do have some competitive components they are not the competitive end all be all and it is very difficult to compared an extremely diverse game to a very structured competitive game such as the tour de France, where the weight of your bicycle is regulated and every other aspect is regulated to ensure an equal playing field....sorry doesn't work in mmo, the guy with the better more expensive computer and faster internet with the lowest latency is gonna have a competitive edge...so the only real competitive gaming will be on a plan based system where everyone is using identical machines.

2) some older games were less flawed than current games and inpersonally love very hard challenges.

3) OK, I will grant you when there is high prevalence of bots it can (doesn't have to, because system design is very important here) cause immersion problems. What "potentially harmful threats" does a not pose to you?

4) I also remember how to change mynchat box so I don't have to see zone chat (and if needed PMS).

5) so is your issue with the cheaters? Or really with the poor system design? I think it is the second one.

6) exploiting a bug in a system that has no impact on the non digital world is hardly comparable to government corruption, social program abuse, theft, extortion or even the Sony hack incident or the icloud hack ...those were all actions that had real life implications and that is a problem...but someone botting in an mmorpg is hardly the same thing...let's not try to compare apples and oranges....

7) Show me one instance where a mmorpg farming bot has ruined (much less generally ruin) peoples lives....again no real world impact vs non digital damages let's compare comparable things not poodles and the lochness monster...

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

I am thoroughly confused about this...for decades I have watched forums for various games and they player sentiment is mostly the same:

Cheaters/botters...etc.... Are evil/bad/aweful/deserve to be banned/hated etc...

You know for a game like StarCraft where you could glitch the system to allow minerals to be mined by a cc much quicker by moving it To a block adjacent to a mine...yeah there is a problem with that...maybe....I mean seriously though if someone has to do that to beat me then who really won?

In a mmorpg where there is a ceiling and a cap on the power level that characters can obtain then who cares if someone uses a bot to get there quicker/ or with less effort? Who cares if they mine nodes or do other activities to progress more quickly? If they mine nodes and sell in ah to make gold then ah materials are cheaper for me...not more expensive...now I do admit if they are doing this and the result is there are so many that it gets in the way of me playing the game...then perhaps there is a problem. You know I don't like seeing bots running around everywhere....but what about the players grinding inside instances to level faster than other players? I don't see them and they have no impact on me ...so they get to max level before me....who cares? They also missed all the content that they paid for and I didn't...who won? Oh they can now enter end level content faster than me? So what? I will probably be more skilled when I reach that content because I have actually practiced and learned how to apply my skills in a diverse set of conditions...who won?

Really who are cheaters cheating? You? Or themselves?

So someone please explain to me why this is such a big deal what other people do when it has no impact on your playing experience?

bots will at some time affect ur game prices will be driven down in guild shop etc, plus these bots stand at a node and just farm that node, if you want say columbine and the bot keeps stop you getting, more than that i just don't understand what they are thinking, in there heads is i will buy the game but not play it just have a bot do it for me

I agree this is illogical behavior spend money then have a not do it for me ...why did I buy the game??? The columbine is a problem in game design not necessarily a problem with the botter ...here's an easy solution....zos already uses phasing tech, perhaps make resource nodes phased and personal then it doesn't matter if a bot picks it or not...and as long as the nodes have fixed locations unless you just picked a node and stare at it then you will not see people bending over to pick invisible nodes...this is why I say its a design flaw not a problem with bitters/cheaters...

Armitas wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Your bots can get in my solo instance? That's impressive ....if items are of minimal value why do you care about building vast digital wealth? ....I mean yeah enough to expand bank size and buy/feed horses and repair gear....then everything else is cheap due to supply ... Forgetting instanced content for a minute...just the one time quest rewards from a single character has bought an insane amount of inventory space and fed 18 horses daily....if the gear was cheaper I would have plenty more gold to buy mount skins...gold is a non issue currently and would be an even greater non issue with increased supply.

What solo instance? You mean Craglorn adventure zones? I'm afraid they nerfed the heck out of any instanced dungeon drops and xp because people were farming them solo. Like I said, you will either have to farm efficient areas and deal with the bots, or farm inefficient areas and deal with them naturally taking more time. Your use of solo instance would be a case of inefficient areas.

Believe me, I actually farm mobs for gold and gear to vendor, and glyphs to decon, I know where to go to get it and it's not soloing an instanced dungeons, it's open world areas. You have to do it naked or you lose 2k to repair costs.

Rare items will still be rare, and consequently expensive, not everything can be botted, and not everything drops from botted locations.

And a smart businessman will find those opportunities and profit with or without the presence of bots.

Gorthax wrote: »

Is this seriously a debate? There are ToS for a reason, and in it cheating/exploiting/botting/gold selling are AGAINST what they allow. If everyone else has to play by the rules then so do those botters/gold sellers/cheaters/exploiters which means they cant play.

Is that really such a hard thing to understand? So you are telling me that if a cheater comes into pvp, walks through a wall, takes your scroll, then casually walks back to place it on his factions side that it wouldnt bother you?

Or people exploiting through keeps?


I just.......I....wow.......good day

No I agree with you if it is in tos then it should not be done ...I'm not talking about what the tos allows or does not allow, I am talking about this rampant pervasive mentality that causes it to be in the tos. If people would just chillax and not get jealous/feelings hurt/upset etc... And not hate the player, and devs would fix the design problems ....then the cheaters are not a problem

eliisra wrote: »

Cheaters have impact on everyone's gaming experience.

Take the game during early access and a few weeks in. There where so many bots at certain places that you couldn't progress. When it's to many players around you can at least group them, rage about it and make sure every is able to finish. Try doing that with 15 bots auto attacking in the air. Something that also ruins immersion greatly.

People botting, exploiting, duplicating or whatever for gold and items also ruins it for me. They have negative impact on the market and the economy. The price of certain exclusive items goes through the roof due to filthy rich cheaters, punishing buyers. Than there's honest sellers, they cant make gold from certain items they farmed the normal way, because exploits flooded the market.

In PvP you're directly affected by cheats. It kills fun and game play period, when someone is immortal or deals 900% more dmg. It prevents you from playing the game as intended, in worst case. There's also bugs and glitches, skills not behaving the way they should. I can name at least 20 so far in ESO, some still not patched like the purge+DoT bug. So people abuse it for easy win, forcing the enemy to do the same to keep up. Creating very crap PvP and community.

And is this a problem with the people using the techniques or the design flaws that should be fixed?

Ballzy321 wrote: »

Pretty sure non mmo players don't like cheaters as well

Sure its not limited to mmo players but I am choosing to examine only the mmo niche

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO wrote: »

I really cannot believe you are still going on about this. Not only that but still going on as if allowing it is a good thing.

There has yet to be one example where cheating in a mmo has ever had a positive effect on the community at large or just in general.

Daoc speed hacks, shroom crashing, etc destroyed the realm war for months til the limited and fixed it. Eq was turned into a relatively dull solo afair when botting and boxes took over, wow gold selling destroyed the economy, and abusing exploits in any and all pvp games to gain invulnerability, higher dmg, and artificial rank not only cheapens the feeling of that rank but makes the experience getting there miserable for those playing the game as it was meant to be played.

You have offered no evidence at all to back your statements besides the opinion you have that no one else matters. Good for you that you dont have a competitive bone in your body but the rest of us do...

Also given your star craft example.... Sure they could cheat the system for a while but eventually it caught up to them when it hit competitive levels of play and they get kicked or banned from the ladders...

There were plenty in the ladders ....I'll give you an example....Minecraft, never heard any one complain about botters or glitchers in Minecraft...mostly because there are no rules against hitting, exploiting cheating etc...you watch a YouTube video of someone doing something "not intended" and the comments are all wow, hey that's kinda cool...etc...

If you remove the taboo element and just let people do their own thing and if they want to let them if they don't want to they don't have to...its the mentality that it is bad which causes the rules,

A) One person doesn't like it so they make a rule against it.

Now that there is a rule against it most people (including myself) follow the rules.

C) A few people do not follow the rule, this upsets a larger proportion than before because they are voluntarily following the rules and perceive the other as having an unfair advantage (which is true in some cases).

D) This creates a positive feedback loop where more rules are created because people are upset and then people break those rules making people upset and more rules are made.....etc...etc...etc...this cycle goes on and on endlessly just causing stress and problems and making people upset and causing arguing.

The solution!

Get rid of the anti-cheat, hack, exploit mentality if you stop being upset then there are no need for rules against it. If there are no rules against it then anyone is free to do it. If anyone is free to do it then no one is upset because everyone is on the same level. In this sense it truly is the anti-cheating mentality that is the problem not the cheating itself.

If we progress to a game where there is no anti-cheating mentality then the developers are allowed more time and resources for improving the system, improving balance of the system, and producing new content ....instead of playing hall monitor.

This is the problem with the mentality and the real 700 lbs gorilla in the room. Its all about the mentality not the perceived problem.

Well, if you're waiting for millions of players worldwide to suddenly be cool w/ losing to cheaters, I hope you have a lot of patience.

I, for one, am not ever going to be okay w/ people cheating to win, because it's unfair and dishonorable. I'm sure there are plenty out there like me.

So you're going to be waiting a while.

Faugaun wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Well, if you're waiting for millions of players worldwide to suddenly be cool w/ losing to cheaters, I hope you have a lot of patience.

I, for one, am not ever going to be okay w/ people cheating to win, because it's unfair and dishonorable. I'm sure there are plenty out there like me.

So you're going to be waiting a while.

But if it were no longer considered cheating...just another way of playing if you choose to...because the blanket answer was if the system can do it then it is working as designed...if the Dev do not approve of a certain use then the answer is until a block is coded in then it is allowed (with the exception of account hacking or other similar activities which should not be allowed). Thus players are free to do whatever the system allows and know with confidence that it is authorized because they are able to do the action.

If its not cheating then they cannot cheat to win...do you really have an issue with a completly open and level playing field?

....yeah I'm not holding my breath on chamge, just pointing out a flaw in the logic of the system. It is truly the anti-cheat mentality which causes the problem of cheaters.

Sure, just like murder, kidnapping, torture, maiming, shaming, etc.

There are a lot of things that would be okay if people just considered them okay.

Faugaun wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Well, if you're waiting for millions of players worldwide to suddenly be cool w/ losing to cheaters, I hope you have a lot of patience.

I, for one, am not ever going to be okay w/ people cheating to win, because it's unfair and dishonorable. I'm sure there are plenty out there like me.

So you're going to be waiting a while.

But if it were no longer considered cheating...just another way of playing if you choose to...because the blanket answer was if the system can do it then it is working as designed...if the Dev do not approve of a certain use then the answer is until a block is coded in then it is allowed (with the exception of account hacking or other similar activities which should not be allowed). Thus players are free to do whatever the system allows and know with confidence that it is authorized because they are able to do the action.

If its not cheating then they cannot cheat to win...do you really have an issue with a completly open and level playing field?

....yeah I'm not holding my breath on chamge, just pointing out a flaw in the logic of the system. It is truly the anti-cheat mentality which causes the problem of cheaters.

It isnt the anti cheat that causes the problem of cheaters. You are using the false dichotemy of blaming the victim for the crime or problem. The reason cheating exists is we are overly competitive by nature and will use any advantage we can to win. And thus in some cheating becomes the norm.

Wanting a truly competitive and fair atmosphere is not a problem and focusing some resources on keeping things fair is what helps keep a game vibrant and playable.

You use examples like minecraft and non ladder based star craft for cheating that doesnt ruin things while ignoring examples that are actually comparable. Outside of ladders star craft cheats or meh because its not competitive. Minecraft was built to be built. Every single new server and room has different rules and terms...

There has yet to be a actual mmo that hasnt had bugs and cheats that started to deteriorate the game till the were fixed. You may be one unique soul that prefers to blame the victims for having policing of policies but you thankfully are one in a million...

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Well, if you're waiting for millions of players worldwide to suddenly be cool w/ losing to cheaters, I hope you have a lot of patience.

I, for one, am not ever going to be okay w/ people cheating to win, because it's unfair and dishonorable. I'm sure there are plenty out there like me.

So you're going to be waiting a while.

But if it were no longer considered cheating...just another way of playing if you choose to...because the blanket answer was if the system can do it then it is working as designed...if the Dev do not approve of a certain use then the answer is until a block is coded in then it is allowed (with the exception of account hacking or other similar activities which should not be allowed). Thus players are free to do whatever the system allows and know with confidence that it is authorized because they are able to do the action.

If its not cheating then they cannot cheat to win...do you really have an issue with a completly open and level playing field?

....yeah I'm not holding my breath on chamge, just pointing out a flaw in the logic of the system. It is truly the anti-cheat mentality which causes the problem of cheaters.

It isnt the anti cheat that causes the problem of cheaters. You are using the false dichotemy of blaming the victim for the crime or problem. The reason cheating exists is we are overly competitive by nature and will use any advantage we can to win. And thus in some cheating becomes the norm.

Wanting a truly competitive and fair atmosphere is not a problem and focusing some resources on keeping things fair is what helps keep a game vibrant and playable.

You use examples like minecraft and non ladder based star craft for cheating that doesnt ruin things while ignoring examples that are actually comparable. Outside of ladders star craft cheats or meh because its not competitive. Minecraft was built to be built. Every single new server and room has different rules and terms...

There has yet to be a actual mmo that hasnt had bugs and cheats that started to deteriorate the game till the were fixed. You may be one unique soul that prefers to blame the victims for having policing of policies but you thankfully are one in a million...

But what about an everything is OK policy hurts the competitiveness? How is it unfair if one player bots or uses a glitch under the premise that everyone is allowed to use the same means? Your arguing that we should make a rule that all fencing competition should be conducted left (or right, pick your poison) handed ...nevermind that not all people have the same dominant hand... The only way to have a truly competitive atmosphere is to allow all methods (both hands in fencing). You keep saying non-ladder based StarCraft and Minecraft....how much of any given mmo is actually ladder based? If you want more strict rules for the ladder portions by all means (heck put in a character creator where you can create a max level character with standardized ladder gear) ...I think that's a great idea it puts everyone I'm equal gear and equal skill to actively compete....why care what people do or do not do outside of said ladders?

No, I think they are arguing that we should make a rule that you can't use guns in a fencing competition.

But maybe I'm misreading...

Seriously, an MMO is a shared space and there needs to be some consideration of other players.