Why do mmo players not like cheaters?

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

I cant really believe this is a serious viewpoint.

People who undermine the system devalue it, removing the worth of much of the content and systems. An mmo is a game designed specifically around the interaction between people, so anything you do can (and will) knock on indirectly or directly to others around you.

Because its a game for everyone, you dont get to define what other people think, or whats valuable within it. We democratically establish rules so that everyones freedom is preserved and their work respected. No matter at what level they interact with them.

Anything that undermines that integrity is socially downvoted as it should be. Its about respect for others and the value they place behind their interactions. Not just thinking about yourself in a bubble.

To say that what people do has no effect on the environment in which you play is ridiculous. People define it at every level - especially in an mmo. They dictate as a whole what changes in the game. If they didnt ZoS wouldnt make any money.

Every game that fails to address cheating; loses its economy, its crafting community and then its value and sense of achievement. In turn the end game, the attitude of the community and everything else becomes soured.

The potential for cheaters to irreperably damage the game through malicious intent is too great to ignore. Fail to uphold balance and worth and theres no point in playing the game at all.

Faugaun · February 2015

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO wrote: »

The anticheat resources arent hampering new content to begin with. And the reason people hate cheaters is at the heart of every game is competition. Pushing to be the best at what you do. Ignoring the cheating totally invalidates this drive abd makes the experience trivial.

Cheating in any multiplayer game setting should be frowned on and actively stopped. Its the same even in non computer games. Would you keep playing a game of risk with a guy that constantly gives himself three extra free dice rolls or two extra units each turn that you playing the gamr by the rules dont get? Nope because that advantage garuntees no matter what the best youll likely get to is second place. And lets be honest with ourselves no matter how much we say we arent we are all in gaming as much to win as we are to have fun.

We must hang around different people everyone I play with doesn't care about winning ...

They dont care about making money, not dying in pvp, defeating dungeons asap? You are in a very unique group of friends then. Winning in a mmorpg has many meanings...

Nope none of that.

AshySamurai wrote: »

@Faugaun you forgot about stairs exploit in FPS.

Dunno that one lol....is that like hiding in the walls to snipe people?

starkerealm · February 2015

Robbmrp wrote: »

Well said.

The only impact that bots have on my game is the constant whispers/emails to buy gold from them. Other than that harassment there's really no impact on my game playing.

Except for the part where, at their peak, bots were actively blocking players from completing delves, and strip mining zones of resources.

Armitas · February 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

who cares if someone uses a bot to get there quicker/ or with less effort? Who cares if they mine nodes or do other activities to progress more quickly? If they mine nodes and sell in ah to make gold then ah materials are cheaper for me...not more expensive...now I do admit if they are doing this and the result is there are so many that it gets in the way of me playing the game...then perhaps there is a problem.

What happens when you try to sell the same thing while not cheating? A botter can sell a potion for 1g if he wants because he got it for 0 time actually spent. You however have to price it at an amount worth the time you actually spent to make it.

I played on Aion when it released. There were places called "autobot city" where you could not get a node, or complete a quest there because there were so many bots, and they were all faster than you. It definitely leads to a bigger problem than just the market.

Faugaun · February 2015

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

I cant really believe this is a serious viewpoint.

People who undermine the system devalue it, removing the worth of much of the content and systems. An mmo is a game designed specifically around the interaction between people, so anything you do can (and will) knock on indirectly or directly to others around you.

Because its a game for everyone, you dont get to define what other people think, or whats valuable within it. We democratically establish rules so that everyones freedom is preserved and their work respected. No matter at what level they interact with them.

Anything that undermines that integrity is socially downvoted as it should be. Its about respect for others and the value they place behind their interactions. Not just thinking about yourself in a bubble.

To say that what people do has no effect on the environment in which you play is ridiculous. People define it at every level - especially in an mmo. They dictate as a whole what changes in the game. If they didnt ZoS wouldnt make any money.

Every game that fails to address cheating; loses its economy, its crafting community and then its value and sense of achievement. In turn the end game, the attitude of the community and everything else becomes soured.

The potential for cheaters to irreperably damage the game through malicious intent is too great to ignore. Fail to uphold balance and worth and theres no point in playing the game at all.

The rules are not democratically established ....they are established by a developer who may or may not listen to the community to varying extents. Someone else cheating does not devalue the system for me unless I allow it to do so...its all about perception and choosing whom you play with and interact with. Other people have a very minimal impact on me in the game, guild traders (which i can buy from another guild if I disagree with a not guild), allies in raids and group content (again I can completely control this by choosing whom I play with), and PvP...maybe some control is OK for PvP...then again if multiboxing, macroimg and add-on scripts are explicitly authorized then am I really at any disadvantage?

If someone is maliciously trying to harm the game then that is something different

Armitas wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

who cares if someone uses a bot to get there quicker/ or with less effort? Who cares if they mine nodes or do other activities to progress more quickly? If they mine nodes and sell in ah to make gold then ah materials are cheaper for me...not more expensive...now I do admit if they are doing this and the result is there are so many that it gets in the way of me playing the game...then perhaps there is a problem.

What happens when you try to sell the same thing while not cheating? A botter can sell a potion for 1g if he wants because he got it for 0 time actually spent. You however have to price it at an amount worth the time you actually spent to make it.

Then I kill an NPC for 6 gold and buy 3 potions and a chest piece and go do a dungeon ....so I can now focus on the more difficult tasks instead of mundane resource collection....if a niche is occupied by someone I don't wish to out compete then I go find a new niche...simple

Zershar_Vemod · February 2015

Sallington wrote: »

OP I CANT EVEN RIGHT NOW

You deserve all the Agrees.

MMOs? I mean..anywhere 'cheating' is bad....I don't even know what to say other than this gif here does the job.

Shlankwald · February 2015

In short in imbalances PvP and it does mess up the economy.

If the devs had this kind of mentality games would slowly get more and more abuseable over time. Do some people freak out over small abusable glitches? Yes, but if we didn't have those people, eventually we might get some sort of crazy item duplication glitch that really affects the game, and just sits there because nobody cares.
Good thing THAT hasn't happened yet *end sarcasm*

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Content]

RainfeatherUK · February 2015

They listen entirely to the community of the past. As the creator they have power to influence whats in the game - but that is still dictated by what people will and will not pay for. What they will buy and what they wont. Thats true of this game and in many games that came before. The gamers defined the genre, the developers adapted to it.

Its not about what you choose to do and dont alone. Its how those choices and opinions influences another, be that friend or passer by. How that can chain on and effect the experiences of others without their consent.

Anyway I am not going to further waste my time conversing with someone who thinks cheating is OK in any format at all. Sorry. In hindsight I probably shouldnt have engaged you in disussion as I dont agree with your viewpoint and further conversation can only really lead to argument.

Stickleback · February 2015

Even if you have no interest in economy, or leader boards, or anything that could be affected by cheaters, every time a cheat or exploit is found, rules get stricter or more rules get implemented, and that effects everyone.

Samadhi · February 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

who cares if someone uses a bot to get there quicker/ or with less effort? Who cares if they mine nodes or do other activities to progress more quickly? If they mine nodes and sell in ah to make gold then ah materials are cheaper for me...not more expensive...now I do admit if they are doing this and the result is there are so many that it gets in the way of me playing the game...then perhaps there is a problem.

What happens when you try to sell the same thing while not cheating? A botter can sell a potion for 1g if he wants because he got it for 0 time actually spent. You however have to price it at an amount worth the time you actually spent to make it.

Then I kill an NPC for 6 gold and buy 3 potions and a chest piece and go do a dungeon ....so I can now focus on the more difficult tasks instead of mundane resource collection....if a niche is occupied by someone I don't wish to out compete then I go find a new niche...simple

So you give up on a portion of the game because someone who was cheating pushed you out of playing it?

Selique · February 2015

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

I honestly don't care about personal botters. I don't do it myself, but if someone uses a bot to power level to the cap, that doesn't affect me and I generally don't care.

Botters who sell gold, on the other hand, are extremely annoying.

Agree but its not the cheating that is the problem here, its spam and external websites and the fact that consumers are willing to pay for this...as soon as the player base says "not gonna buy it, because it is no fun" then they all go out of business and we lol at them for paying the devs to develop a game for us to enjoy.

That may be the case, but until that happens (and it's likely not going to), then it is up to the Devs to implement features that impede the ability of people to bot and cheat.

Your argument basically boils down to "Well if people just didn't want cheap stuff, we'd all be fine." And that just isn't a logical argument to have.

GreySix · February 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

Well said.

The only impact that bots have on my game is the constant whispers/emails to buy gold from them. Other than that harassment there's really no impact on my game playing.

Except for the part where, at their peak, bots were actively blocking players from completing delves, and strip mining zones of resources.

Remember that well. My character would run up to a resource, only to see a camping subterranean bot take it before I could get it. Then saw similar thing with transporting and flying bots. And it definitely impacted on my ability to play the game.

Solanum · February 2015

I think it's a rather odd question to ask, why people do not like cheaters in an online game.

Bots ruin the economy in a game, money and resources become meaningless.
And cheaters, especially the kind one would meet in Cyrodiil are far worse in my opinion.

It is like playing chess with someone whom keeps shouting, wipes all the pieces from the board, and claims he has won. Certainly he is not learning from the game, but I am not enjoying the match either.
With a game of chess I could walk away, and find someone else to play with, however in a game I'm stuck with that moron.

Xendyn · February 2015

Here's my LOL
Obvious Troll is obvious

starkerealm · February 2015

Xendyn wrote: »

Here's my LOL
Obvious Troll is obvious

Nah, it could just be unchecked naivete... that happens... occasionally.

BigM · February 2015

I get the feeling the OP wasn't around during beta and when the game released. Why do you think so many left the game in the first place? Why do you think the game got a bad rep? Why do you think they are changing everything with the game from how you pay and play?

If you don't think that is why cheating is bad then there is no hope you will ever understand.

Being the old man that has played these games from Ultima Online beta to all the one's that have come after. It saddens me a thread like this would even have to be made. In the old days this wouldn't of even been thought of. It is wrong and hurts the game end of story.

TicToc · February 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO wrote: »

The anticheat resources arent hampering new content to begin with. And the reason people hate cheaters is at the heart of every game is competition. Pushing to be the best at what you do. Ignoring the cheating totally invalidates this drive abd makes the experience trivial.

Cheating in any multiplayer game setting should be frowned on and actively stopped. Its the same even in non computer games. Would you keep playing a game of risk with a guy that constantly gives himself three extra free dice rolls or two extra units each turn that you playing the gamr by the rules dont get? Nope because that advantage garuntees no matter what the best youll likely get to is second place. And lets be honest with ourselves no matter how much we say we arent we are all in gaming as much to win as we are to have fun.

We must hang around different people everyone I play with doesn't care about winning ...

The post you commented on was not about MMO's, but cheating in all games in general. Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that not only you, but all of your friends too, are fine with people cheating in games because none of you care if you win? No. I just don't buy it. That is just ridiculous. I understand not caring if you win or lose in a fair game, but no one plays a game that is impossible to win because someone else is cheating. What fun is that? It's not, and you stop playing games that aren't fun. You may feel that it is a hollow victory for them, but it still steals any chance of winning away from you, and completely wastes your time. Heck, for many cheaters, they don't care as much about winning as they do about ruining your game.

Faugaun wrote: »

If they mine nodes and sell in ah to make gold then ah materials are cheaper for me...not more expensive...now I do admit if they are doing this and the result is there are so many that it gets in the way of me playing the game...then perhaps there is a problem.

And that is just a selfish, self-centered point of view. Bots make things cheaper for you at an AH, so it's a good thing. Many people play MMO's specifically for the harvesting, crafting, and commerce parts of the games, and bots ruin it for them...but it's OK because YOU don't care about those things.

Botters also can prevent, or at least seriously interfere with you getting drops, attaining achievements, or completing quest objectives. And the negative impact of cheating in PvP should be more than obvious.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

Olern · February 2015

The fact that you even ask this question means you wouldn't understand my answer

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · February 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

I am thoroughly confused about this...for decades I have watched forums for various games and they player sentiment is mostly the same:

Cheaters/botters...etc.... Are evil/bad/aweful/deserve to be banned/hated etc...

You know for a game like StarCraft where you could glitch the system to allow minerals to be mined by a cc much quicker by moving it To a block adjacent to a mine...yeah there is a problem with that...maybe....I mean seriously though if someone has to do that to beat me then who really won?

In a mmorpg where there is a ceiling and a cap on the power level that characters can obtain then who cares if someone uses a bot to get there quicker/ or with less effort? Who cares if they mine nodes or do other activities to progress more quickly? If they mine nodes and sell in ah to make gold then ah materials are cheaper for me...not more expensive...now I do admit if they are doing this and the result is there are so many that it gets in the way of me playing the game...then perhaps there is a problem. You know I don't like seeing bots running around everywhere....but what about the players grinding inside instances to level faster than other players? I don't see them and they have no impact on me ...so they get to max level before me....who cares? They also missed all the content that they paid for and I didn't...who won? Oh they can now enter end level content faster than me? So what? I will probably be more skilled when I reach that content because I have actually practiced and learned how to apply my skills in a diverse set of conditions...who won?

Really who are cheaters cheating? You? Or themselves?

So someone please explain to me why this is such a big deal what other people do when it has no impact on your playing experience?

I guess you wernt here at launch were every solo instance had a dozen people in it and half were bots who auto attacked to loot boss spawns; it was very difficult to get enough damage for kill credit to complete the SOLO difficulty instance. If you were around it should not be a mystery why having the nodes dry because of botters and the chat spammed full of gold sellers is a terrible system. one major reason for cheaters is to Sell in game items via 3rd party for real money, they spamed chat badly for months and ruined starter zones completely. clearly you have no clue what unchecked cheaters can looks like.

just because you havent noticed a problem dosent mean it dosent exist. thank goodness most do have a problem with it and zos managed to crack down enough that people like you can come on many months later and post that they dont see any problems.

TheShadowScout · February 2015

Noone likes cheaters except cheaters, I would think...

Most of us think they are going to burn in a very special level of Hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.

arqe · February 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

So someone please explain to me why this is such a big deal what other people do when it has no impact on your playing experience?

I wonder if this is your first mmo experience ?

AngryNord · February 2015

I guess the OP was busted as a cheater and now tries to talk himself out of it...

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

I mean if you cheat long enough you will get bored of having the superior ultimate power ...and move on...the rest of us can enjoy our content...what if a game company took a radically different approach and hosted a "cheaters server" where the cheaters could go and cheat their hearts away, while on non cheaters servers cheating is punishable? This creates a thriving non black market cheaters world...the developer can monitor all the cheats and code in detection techniques for the other servers ... So they get more info about cheats and can more easily enforce no cheat rules on designated servwr

Robbmrp wrote: »

Well said.

The only impact that bots have on my game is the constant whispers/emails to buy gold from them. Other than that harassment there's really no impact on my game playing.

Yeah the whispers/emails are annoying but if they are ignored they will move on. This also seems more like a spam issue than a cheaters issue...and better spam controls could help with this.

jluceyub17_ESO wrote: »

Botters are just annoying to see in the game world and negatively impact the game economy so that it's harder for regular players to make money by farming.

Cheating generally refers more to PvP players who use macros or addons that give them a competitive advantage.

Most players don't mind grinders, but I could see how players that just want to quest through the zones would be less than happy with grinders who wipe out all the enemies in a quest area making it harder to complete the quest.

How do botters negatively impact the game economy? They produce a surplus of items and flood the market...simple supply and demand suggests that this reduces the prices in the store for everyone else ... Its like the illegal aliens argument in the USA ...."they are bad for the economy because they take all the jobs...." Never mind its then low paying tedious jobs that no one else wants anyways... The only thing I have against illegal aliens is that they entered the country illegally and thus they are criminals...we don't want criminals here...but do they hurt the economy? No.

So if they make prices cheaper then standard gold loot from normal play is more valuable and buys you more...simple supply and demand.

Regarding PvP ...if removing all challenge by using macros and addons for competitive advantage is what you need to beat me then who really won? I promise you these people will get bored with their competitive advantage and move on...and if all players can do it equally without fear of developer retribution then it may not even be a competitive advantage...again who cares? Does not hurt me, the only person being cheated is the cheater.

Now I agree if the grinding bots are so prevalent that it impacts my ability to quest then there is a problem...but maybe its there are too many players on a shard...or maybe its the reward for that particular content is much greater than it should be and some balancing needs to occur...if super duper exp grind spot appears tomorrow ....then all the bots will go there and it's no longer super duper exp grind spot....Nerf the exp there thank your free labor for finding a hole in the system and move on...in the meantime while all the bots are competing for the grind spot resources (which are diminished because so many people try to access them)....then the rest of the world if not free for me to explore....again it minimally impacts me...no biggie...

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

I am thoroughly confused about this...for decades I have watched forums for various games and they player sentiment is mostly the same:

Cheaters/botters...etc.... Are evil/bad/aweful/deserve to be banned/hated etc...

You know for a game like StarCraft where you could glitch the system to allow minerals to be mined by a cc much quicker by moving it To a block adjacent to a mine...yeah there is a problem with that...maybe....I mean seriously though if someone has to do that to beat me then who really won?

In a mmorpg where there is a ceiling and a cap on the power level that characters can obtain then who cares if someone uses a bot to get there quicker/ or with less effort? Who cares if they mine nodes or do other activities to progress more quickly? If they mine nodes and sell in ah to make gold then ah materials are cheaper for me...not more expensive...now I do admit if they are doing this and the result is there are so many that it gets in the way of me playing the game...then perhaps there is a problem. You know I don't like seeing bots running around everywhere....but what about the players grinding inside instances to level faster than other players? I don't see them and they have no impact on me ...so they get to max level before me....who cares? They also missed all the content that they paid for and I didn't...who won? Oh they can now enter end level content faster than me? So what? I will probably be more skilled when I reach that content because I have actually practiced and learned how to apply my skills in a diverse set of conditions...who won?

Really who are cheaters cheating? You? Or themselves?

So someone please explain to me why this is such a big deal what other people do when it has no impact on your playing experience?

That's like asking why husbands/wives/boyfriends/girlfriends frown upon cheating.

I don't get that one either...except they are jealous types ...its not a problem with the act its a problem with self and lack of confidence. Many people are afraid that if their spouse cheats then they will leave (or they feel as though they are not enough). This jealousy and lack of self confidence and lack of trusting your partner to actually love you is a much bigger issue than whatever the people do...

Being paranoid isn't the same as being wrong.

Rev Rielle · February 2015

Example:
You think you've found a nice group for a group dungeon or two, only to find out they're a bunch of self proclaimed 'hardcore elite players' who proceed to not only cheat/exploit every boss they can, but have the nerve to be completely rude and derogatory when it's suggested that if they're even half as good as they say they are they should have no problem completing the content in the manner it was designed.

It is this sort of cheater/exploiter I have the greatest problems with. It this kind of selfish, rude, childish player that has a negative impact on the player community and game as a whole, and is definitely not okay.

phairdon · February 2015

Because players using bots harm the game experience. Just need to look back the first 3 months after release (or thereabout). Bots camping on solo dungeon bosses, taking them down in a few seconds, preventing players from being able to complete the dungeon. Same thing was happening with quest related bosses.
Then you have bots under the maps, moving from node to node, preventing other players from being able to harvest materials. No doubt the some of the bots were trying to manipulate the market, just as well we did not have a global trading post at the time.

Glitches are always going to be exploited. Only consider glitching cheating, if the dev's know about it & issue a warning for players to stop. Not that I have used a glitch myself, at least not to my knowledge.

Kronosphere · February 2015

ok so if a billion botters flood the market with ore etc and the price plummets. if i happen to have earned gold from mining ore and selling it i am now going to have to work and waste that much more time than before to profit.

also according to your logic paying real money to get max level and the best gear all yellow is ok? the point is and the reason people dont like it imo is, why should they get the rewards without doing the work and putting in the effort? It takes away from the people who DO actually acheive things. The only place it doesnt matter is singleplayer games.

@Faugaun

Hortator Mopa · February 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

I am thoroughly confused about this...for decades I have watched forums for various games and they player sentiment is mostly the same:

Cheaters/botters...etc.... Are evil/bad/aweful/deserve to be banned/hated etc...

You know for a game like StarCraft where you could glitch the system to allow minerals to be mined by a cc much quicker by moving it To a block adjacent to a mine...yeah there is a problem with that...maybe....I mean seriously though if someone has to do that to beat me then who really won?

In a mmorpg where there is a ceiling and a cap on the power level that characters can obtain then who cares if someone uses a bot to get there quicker/ or with less effort? Who cares if they mine nodes or do other activities to progress more quickly? If they mine nodes and sell in ah to make gold then ah materials are cheaper for me...not more expensive...now I do admit if they are doing this and the result is there are so many that it gets in the way of me playing the game...then perhaps there is a problem. You know I don't like seeing bots running around everywhere....but what about the players grinding inside instances to level faster than other players? I don't see them and they have no impact on me ...so they get to max level before me....who cares? They also missed all the content that they paid for and I didn't...who won? Oh they can now enter end level content faster than me? So what? I will probably be more skilled when I reach that content because I have actually practiced and learned how to apply my skills in a diverse set of conditions...who won?

Really who are cheaters cheating? You? Or themselves?

So someone please explain to me why this is such a big deal what other people do when it has no impact on your playing experience?

How did you think of this, write this, reread what you wrote and post this without thinking "This is a stupid way to look at cheaters".

I'm thoroughly confused how you think this is logical thinking.

ShadowDisciple · February 2015

LOL idc how cheaters enjoy the game..but bro

ECONOMY...full set dwemer motif 1k gg...no loot would be worth

wOOOOt_of_SD · February 2015

This is a stupid question.

Cheating in any way, in a game where people compete, is cheating other players.
Players who do not cheat, do not like those who do.

Its personal, so don't cheat!

Go cheat in single player games - I dont give a crap!

Armitas · February 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

who cares if someone uses a bot to get there quicker/ or with less effort? Who cares if they mine nodes or do other activities to progress more quickly? If they mine nodes and sell in ah to make gold then ah materials are cheaper for me...not more expensive...now I do admit if they are doing this and the result is there are so many that it gets in the way of me playing the game...then perhaps there is a problem.

What happens when you try to sell the same thing while not cheating? A botter can sell a potion for 1g if he wants because he got it for 0 time actually spent. You however have to price it at an amount worth the time you actually spent to make it.

Then I kill an NPC for 6 gold and buy 3 potions and a chest piece and go do a dungeon ....so I can now focus on the more difficult tasks instead of mundane resource collection....if a niche is occupied by someone I don't wish to out compete then I go find a new niche...simple

Sorry, my bots are there where you are trying to kill npcs for Gold. You will have to find a better way to make money because I have necessarily put all of my bot where it is best to make money. Where ever it is efficient to make wealth that is where the bots will be. Anyone wanting to make wealth without boting now has to spend more time at an efficient spot, due to sharing it with the bots, or move to an inefficient spot an naturally spend more time. Either way you will have to spend an increased amount of time to achieve wealth, whereas the cheater has to spend 0 actual time. The cheater can set his own price because he spent no actual time achieving his wealth, while you have to set a price worth the time you spent acquiring it.

Now as for the person who put points into alchemy and actually wanted to use it to sell potions, he now has to find a different way to enjoy the game because we have allowed cheaters to roam free.