Well said.

The only impact that bots have on my game is the constant whispers/emails to buy gold from them. Other than that harassment there's really no impact on my game playing.

In online game, any cheats or exploits will affect you at sometime.

- If your using a bot to loot flowers in cold harbor that will drive down the price and the work that an hour of farming you do is undercut by the bots underselling you.
- If bots are powerleveling up then you may find yourself alone in the mid level tiers. If bots are speed running trials and doing s more efficient combo attack using exploits you may never be at the top of the leaderboards again.
- If you deal with bots in pvp that never make mistakes and take advantage of your human response.

These are just a few ways bots affect you.

As go cheats and exploits there is a slight grey area, for me at least. As a general rule don't exploit, especially an thing ZOS will ban you for. However there are things like animation canceling that ZOS has endorsed and are a requirement for certain fights. There are other things like dungeon boss "cheese" methods that some groups run to make a boss easier. Generally if I'm competing against someone in pvp or trials I will use everything in the mechanics of the game to have fun and win, but intentionally exploiting or cheating is taking away someone else's enjoyment and/or fair chance to compete, so why would I want to do that?


Now outside of online games I see no issue if you play around with those things in single player games. Just have some empathy when playing online

The reason that people get upset is because its their right to really. Comparisons will be drawn to IRL events and ideals, but in all honesty people want to feel a sense of accomplishment and pride at the end of the day for doing something in the game world. That's the reason they spend so much time inside this virtual world, progressing their digital selves.

If you allow cheating, then it cheapens the overall experience for everyone. People tend to take the path of least resistance, so you will have a lot of people running around at vr14 with gold gear and 1,000,000,000 gold. If you want to buy a guild trader in the best spots in this particular game, well sorry you can't because someone who used a bot to farm has way more money than you.

Want to sell some goods? Nope you can't because the bot farmer has an auto-undercut function, so no matter what they are cheaper than you.

Also, it allows for IRL gold selling. That opens people up to identity theft and a host of nasty things unscrupulous people will introduce when its profitable to do so.

Overall it comes down to there are rules within the system, people get upset because they follow the rules and other people don't.

I mean if you cheat long enough you will get bored of having the superior ultimate power ...and move on...the rest of us can enjoy our content...what if a game company took a radically different approach and hosted a "cheaters server" where the cheaters could go and cheat their hearts away, while on non cheaters servers cheating is punishable? This creates a thriving non black market cheaters world...the developer can monitor all the cheats and code in detection techniques for the other servers ... So they get more info about cheats and can more easily enforce no cheat rules on designated servwr

Robbmrp wrote: »

Well said.

The only impact that bots have on my game is the constant whispers/emails to buy gold from them. Other than that harassment there's really no impact on my game playing.

Yeah the whispers/emails are annoying but if they are ignored they will move on. This also seems more like a spam issue than a cheaters issue...and better spam controls could help with this.

jluceyub17_ESO wrote: »

Botters are just annoying to see in the game world and negatively impact the game economy so that it's harder for regular players to make money by farming.

Cheating generally refers more to PvP players who use macros or addons that give them a competitive advantage.

Most players don't mind grinders, but I could see how players that just want to quest through the zones would be less than happy with grinders who wipe out all the enemies in a quest area making it harder to complete the quest.

How do botters negatively impact the game economy? They produce a surplus of items and flood the market...simple supply and demand suggests that this reduces the prices in the store for everyone else ...

So if they make prices cheaper then standard gold loot from normal play is more valuable and buys you more...simple supply and demand.

Regarding PvP ...if removing all challenge by using macros and addons for competitive advantage is what you need to beat me then who really won? I promise you these people will get bored with their competitive advantage and move on...and if all players can do it equally without fear of developer retribution then it may not even be a competitive advantage...again who cares? Does not hurt me, the only person being cheated is the cheater.

Now I agree if the grinding bots are so prevalent that it impacts my ability to quest then there is a problem...but maybe its there are too many players on a shard...or maybe its the reward for that particular content is much greater than it should be and some balancing needs to occur...if super duper exp grind spot appears tomorrow ....then all the bots will go there and it's no longer super duper exp grind spot....Nerf the exp there thank your free labor for finding a hole in the system and move on...in the meantime while all the bots are competing for the grind spot resources (which are diminished because so many people try to access them)....then the rest of the world if not free for me to explore....again it minimally impacts me...no biggie...

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

I am thoroughly confused about this...for decades I have watched forums for various games and they player sentiment is mostly the same:

Cheaters/botters...etc.... Are evil/bad/aweful/deserve to be banned/hated etc...

You know for a game like StarCraft where you could glitch the system to allow minerals to be mined by a cc much quicker by moving it To a block adjacent to a mine...yeah there is a problem with that...maybe....I mean seriously though if someone has to do that to beat me then who really won?

In a mmorpg where there is a ceiling and a cap on the power level that characters can obtain then who cares if someone uses a bot to get there quicker/ or with less effort? Who cares if they mine nodes or do other activities to progress more quickly? If they mine nodes and sell in ah to make gold then ah materials are cheaper for me...not more expensive...now I do admit if they are doing this and the result is there are so many that it gets in the way of me playing the game...then perhaps there is a problem. You know I don't like seeing bots running around everywhere....but what about the players grinding inside instances to level faster than other players? I don't see them and they have no impact on me ...so they get to max level before me....who cares? They also missed all the content that they paid for and I didn't...who won? Oh they can now enter end level content faster than me? So what? I will probably be more skilled when I reach that content because I have actually practiced and learned how to apply my skills in a diverse set of conditions...who won?

Really who are cheaters cheating? You? Or themselves?

So someone please explain to me why this is such a big deal what other people do when it has no impact on your playing experience?

..

yodased wrote: »

The reason that people get upset is because its their right to really. Comparisons will be drawn to IRL events and ideals, but in all honesty people want to feel a sense of accomplishment and pride at the end of the day for doing something in the game world. That's the reason they spend so much time inside this virtual world, progressing their digital selves.

If you allow cheating, then it cheapens the overall experience for everyone. People tend to take the path of least resistance, so you will have a lot of people running around at vr14 with gold gear and 1,000,000,000 gold. If you want to buy a guild trader in the best spots in this particular game, well sorry you can't because someone who used a bot to farm has way more money than you.

Want to sell some goods? Nope you can't because the bot farmer has an auto-undercut function, so no matter what they are cheaper than you.

Also, it allows for IRL gold selling. That opens people up to identity theft and a host of nasty things unscrupulous people will introduce when its profitable to do so.

Overall it comes down to there are rules within the system, people get upset because they follow the rules and other people don't.

Right so if the blanket rule is that its OK to break the rules then people cannot be upset and they can play the game however they like and enjoy.

I can see your point about guild merchant spots and auto undercutting auction bots...but if people who do not support those techniques ignore those then they will go away (because its not profitable) ...and if you buy gold from a 3rd party vendor and your information is hacked then you learned a good life lesson that is better to learn when you are 18 and don't have much than when you are 50 and have a lot...plus that's criminal and different go file a police report for theft and take real action.


[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Comments]

Faugaun wrote: »

I am thoroughly confused about this...for decades I have watched forums for various games and they player sentiment is mostly the same:

Cheaters/botters...etc.... Are evil/bad/aweful/deserve to be banned/hated etc...

Should be fairy self-explanatory: In MMOs, all players are playing for the same or similar things, and players want a relatively even playing field. Thus cheaters and botters are exploiting the system for an unfair/illegal advantage, violating the users agreement with the company providing services for the MMO.

Now, if you cheat or bot in a single-player game, don't care ... knock yourself out.

Edit: Dang autocorrect changing "botters" to "brothers"

Faugaun wrote: »

So someone please explain to me why this is such a big deal what other people do when it has no impact on your playing experience?

I'm sure this isn't for real but I'll bite ...

... in an MMO everyone is competing with everyone else in some way or another, be it for crafting resources, grinding XP/gold/whatever, leveling to be able to compete for group/raid spots, etc.

If you cheat then I suffer at some point or other, or if I don't suffer directly then indirectly.

But as I said, I can't believe this OP is for real so may I just fed the ... youknowhat.

GreySix wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

I am thoroughly confused about this...for decades I have watched forums for various games and they player sentiment is mostly the same:

Cheaters/botters...etc.... Are evil/bad/aweful/deserve to be banned/hated etc...

Should be fairy self-explanatory: In MMOs, all players are playing for the same or similar things, and players want a relatively even playing field. Thus cheaters and botters are exploiting the system for an unfair/illegal advantage, violating the users agreement with the company providing services for the MMO.

Now, if you cheat or bot in a single-player game, don't care ... knock yourself out.

Edit: Dang autocorrect changing "botters" to "brothers"

It only violates the user agreement if the Dev decides to include a clause to that effect in the agreement...but why include the clause? If someone has to cheat for an unfair advantage to beat me then who won? Its no skin off my back if you wanna spend $50 on a game then cheat so you can be at the top and be bored with the content quickly....who lost ...the cheater lost by cheating and not using the product he/she paid for....still no skin off my back. How is it any different from a single player game in this respect? Im sure if cheating is authorized there will be non-cheat guilds people can join and still have plenty of fun. So cheaters get to cheat and the rest of us get to have fun....oh and zos can put those anti-cheat resources towards new content for the rest of us to enjoy (the cheaters won't miss the new content...but they might have much less stress and be happier also).

Faugaun wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

I am thoroughly confused about this...for decades I have watched forums for various games and they player sentiment is mostly the same:

Cheaters/botters...etc.... Are evil/bad/aweful/deserve to be banned/hated etc...

Should be fairy self-explanatory: In MMOs, all players are playing for the same or similar things, and players want a relatively even playing field. Thus cheaters and botters are exploiting the system for an unfair/illegal advantage, violating the users agreement with the company providing services for the MMO.

Now, if you cheat or bot in a single-player game, don't care ... knock yourself out.

Edit: Dang autocorrect changing "botters" to "brothers"

It only violates the user agreement if the Dev decides to include a clause to that effect in the agreement...but why include the clause? If someone has to cheat for an unfair advantage to beat me then who won? Its no skin off my back if you wanna spend $50 on a game then cheat so you can be at the top and be bored with the content quickly....who lost ...the cheater lost by cheating and not using the product he/she paid for....still no skin off my back. How is it any different from a single player game in this respect? Im sure if cheating is authorized there will be non-cheat guilds people can join and still have plenty of fun. So cheaters get to cheat and the rest of us get to have fun....oh and zos can put those anti-cheat resources towards new content for the rest of us to enjoy (the cheaters won't miss the new content...but they might have much less stress and be happier also).

It's a ridiculous thing to say something like "Well it's the cheater who really lost because they had to cheat to win." It's a 5-year old's argument. Because in the real world, they do have an effect on other people. If I enjoy a game, and it goes to hell because cheaters become rampant, then I can no longer enjoy the game and I lose out. If you cheat in a single-player game, nobody else will ever know. In an MMO, it can have wide-ranging impacts.

Imagine you're playing a game of solitaire. Someone else cheating at their own game of solitaire has no impact on you.

Now, imagine that you're playing poker with friends. There's a 20-dollar buy-in to play. You all put in the 20 bucks and you're all at exactly the same starting point. It is now skill and some luck that determines who wins. Most people find this enjoyable, even if they lose, because they had fun. So now someone comes along and buys $1,000,000 worth of chips. They force you all to go all-in every hand if you want to play. Eventually, he is going to win just because he could bully you into playing his game. Most people would NOT find this enjoyable, and it would ruin their game. Do you think it unreasonable that this group of friends wouldn't let this sort of thing happen?

Kragorn wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

So someone please explain to me why this is such a big deal what other people do when it has no impact on your playing experience?

I'm sure this isn't for real but I'll bite ...

... in an MMO everyone is competing with everyone else in some way or another, be it for crafting resources, grinding XP/gold/whatever, leveling to be able to compete for group/raid spots, etc.

If you cheat then I suffer at some point or other, or if I don't suffer directly then indirectly.

But as I said, I can't believe this OP is for real so may I just fed the ... youknowhat.

If I cheat (hypothetically speaking) Suppose I used a not to level me from level 3 to VR14 ...how does that impact you negatively?

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

The "cheaters" that you are talking about don't follow the normal rules of supply and demand, though. Usually, they manipulate the market in on of two ways, but not both at the same time.

1) They do nothing but create gold in large quantities. They can then drive the prices up on everything, meaning that normal players don't have the gold to buy stuff on the market like they would have before. This leads to gold selling, which is problematic in its own regards (usually because the people you buy gold from are not the most upstanding people, and will likely steal your credit card info).

2) They create items in large quantities. This is the opposite problem, and ruins the economy because now you have rare goods for sale for 1 gold, because they are in such high supply. Now, everyone who gets to max level can just buy a full set of "rare" items for nothing, and now there is absolutely no reason to do high-end content or invest time in the game.

Both of these things are bad for any game in the long run. So why shouldn't they be viewed as bad by the community?

Why would the Devs create a "cheaters only" server that had its own ruleset and would need to be maintained separately? Time and resources spent on a population that probably will never gain them any money? Sounds like a good investment.

In instance #1 if people get info stolen then they are less likely to continue this as a consumer in the future (plus they learned a valuable life lesson) if they do not do this then there is no money in it and gold sellers go out of business.

Instance #2 what is the incentive to someone trying to make profit to do this? Supposing they did again who cares? Now PvP is equal because everyone has the best equipment ...again I fail to see the negative impact on me...if I really want to go run that instance 500 times then I still can...with a nicer sword of course...

I'm assuming the cheat authorized server also have to B2P....if they wanna pay $50 (and previously a subscription but no longer) and buy DLC to afk why a not levels them up then why not support that (extremely boring IMO) play style? They are after all paying customers...and the knowledge from a white hat (legal cheating server) can help prevent cheating in the other servers so everyone wins.

Maverick827 wrote: »

I honestly don't care about personal botters. I don't do it myself, but if someone uses a bot to power level to the cap, that doesn't affect me and I generally don't care.

Botters who sell gold, on the other hand, are extremely annoying.

Agree but its not the cheating that is the problem here, its spam and external websites and the fact that consumers are willing to pay for this...as soon as the player base says "not gonna buy it, because it is no fun" then they all go out of business and we lol at them for paying the devs to develop a game for us to enjoy.

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO wrote: »

The anticheat resources arent hampering new content to begin with. And the reason people hate cheaters is at the heart of every game is competition. Pushing to be the best at what you do. Ignoring the cheating totally invalidates this drive abd makes the experience trivial.

Cheating in any multiplayer game setting should be frowned on and actively stopped. Its the same even in non computer games. Would you keep playing a game of risk with a guy that constantly gives himself three extra free dice rolls or two extra units each turn that you playing the gamr by the rules dont get? Nope because that advantage garuntees no matter what the best youll likely get to is second place. And lets be honest with ourselves no matter how much we say we arent we are all in gaming as much to win as we are to have fun.

We must hang around different people everyone I play with doesn't care about winning ...

Cheaters cheat the general populace. They exploit certain content which the developers then perceive as being too easy and then nerf drops/xp/abilities to the point that the whole game becomes virtually unplayable to pretty much everybody who hasn't engaged in such behaviour.

This may be the most trollish thread ever created. I feel bad I actually responded, but rules are there for a reason.

You need to take some psych 101 courses if you can't understand why society (even games) need rules and enforcement of those rules.

Some light reading

http://bit.ly/1Dfe5MY

It has nothing to do with what kind of game you're playing. In fact it has nothing to do with games at all... it's a matter of principle and community. If you don't play by the rules, we want you out.

If you're going to cheat, why bother playing the game at all?

@Faugaun you forgot about stairs exploit in FPS.