Thoughts on ESO’s Economy

RealBlackPeople · February 2015

With the lack of a Global Auction house like in other MMOs, some have found it hard adjust to the Guild Trader system, while others have embraced and thrived with the current system.
I personally believe the pros outweigh the cons when weighed against the many pitfalls seen in a Global Auction House system, but would like to hear both sides of the argument.

The positives I've been able to come up with are:
• Dynamic economy – Items have a wide range of prices between different guilds. There are also major deals that can be found.
• Hard for people to corner the market(price fixers)
• Having many miniature markets helps keep inflation in check. Items maintain their value instead of plummeting due to constant undercutting.
• A great counter to bots and golds sellers.
• I believe the current system limited the damage caused by the “Dupe Bug”.

The negatives that come to mind are:
• Convenience – instead of finding everything easily in a Global Auction House, travelers have to hunt for items and deals. And many may not find what their looking for.

These are the pros and cons I've been able to come up with. Obviously I have a bias towards the current system, but I know it could be made better and expanded upon. Something that is hard to do when I’m only viewing one side of the argument.

crislevin · February 2015

I liked D3's auction house. Something similar would be fine here.

Inco · February 2015

Having a global one does make life easier, but now we are going B2P I'd say hands off.

Before it was a pain, but workable as you could do okay in the market with multiple good guild stores.

Undercutting and gold sellers are an issue with global and glad we don't have.

TicToc · February 2015

Love the convenience of an auction house, but the negatives are very real.

Troneon · February 2015

We could use a sub forum with WTS and WTB posts.

Lord_Kreegan · February 2015

This thread has been done ad infinitum before. Not trying to be a ***, but use the search function.

To summarize all the threads on it, there are those that love the guild trader system -- people who are sellers -- and those of us who despise the system -- non-sellers.

dharbert · February 2015

Undercutting and price fixing can be accomplished via zone chat, no auction house required. I know, I do it every day. I sell resources for well below average market value. I can do this because I gather resources in large quantities. I have a sizeable regular customer base because of this. I post prices for these resources in zone chat daily and players know that my price isn't going to change. As a result, I have affected the sale of resources from vendors and other players who are charging higher prices. Now I'm just one player, but if enough players did this, then everyone would start to expect to be able to get those resources at the lower price and wouldn't buy from those selling them at a higher price. Thus, the entire market is affected, no auction house required.

On the other hand, if I start buying resources from players and offer considerably more than the average market price, eventually it is going to drive up the price of those resources because that's what players are going to expect for them.

Like I said, I'm only one player, but I've already affected the market, even if it is a small ripple. Having a global auction house wouldn't change that. I can already accomplish the same effect simply by selling in zone chat. ESO already has a global auction house in place, you just have to travel between 200 vendors to access it.

dharbert · February 2015

Now, having said that above, I do wish that ESO had a single, global auction house accessable via kiosk or hotkey like the crown store. All that would change is you would no longer have to travel between multiple zones and a hundred vendors just to maybe have a chance to find something you are looking for. Guild traders are all but useless. They are either mostly empty, or have the same exact stuff as every other vendor for wildly varying prices. The only players that the guild traders benefit are the guilds that have a trader.

timidobserver · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

Undercutting and price fixing can be accomplished via zone chat, no auction house required. I know, I do it every day. I sell resources for well below average market value. I can do this because I gather resources in large quantities. I have a sizeable regular customer base because of this. I post prices for these resources in zone chat daily and players know that my price isn't going to change. As a result, I have affected the sale of resources from vendors and other players who are charging higher prices. Now I'm just one player, but if enough players did this, then everyone would start to expect to be able to get those resources at the lower price and wouldn't buy from those selling them at a higher price. Thus, the entire market is affected, no auction house required.

On the other hand, if I start buying resources from players and offer considerably more than the average market price, eventually it is going to drive up the price of those resources because that's what players are going to expect for them.

Like I said, I'm only one player, but I've already affected the market, even if it is a small ripple. Having a global auction house wouldn't change that. I can already accomplish the same effect simply by selling in zone chat. ESO already has a global auction house in place, you just have to travel between 200 vendors to access it.

What actually happens is that you sell stuff cheaply thinking you are impacting the system and people buy it from you and list it on their traders for the real market value of the items.

You aren't online all day. You aren't serving the entire population of your mega server. Your just one guy spamming zone chat at certain times during the day. Guild Traders are open to everybody all day long. They serve the entire population of the mega server(all factions.) Your few zone chat spam sales don't impact that at all.

I do the bulk of my trading using Guild Traders, and I can tell you that the economy of traders is not impacted at all by zone chat sellers. For example, people sell their spell power pots for 9k-10k in zone chat all day. However, they still sell in guild traders for 10-11k all day.

dharbert · February 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

Undercutting and price fixing can be accomplished via zone chat, no auction house required. I know, I do it every day. I sell resources for well below average market value. I can do this because I gather resources in large quantities. I have a sizeable regular customer base because of this. I post prices for these resources in zone chat daily and players know that my price isn't going to change. As a result, I have affected the sale of resources from vendors and other players who are charging higher prices. Now I'm just one player, but if enough players did this, then everyone would start to expect to be able to get those resources at the lower price and wouldn't buy from those selling them at a higher price. Thus, the entire market is affected, no auction house required.

On the other hand, if I start buying resources from players and offer considerably more than the average market price, eventually it is going to drive up the price of those resources because that's what players are going to expect for them.

Like I said, I'm only one player, but I've already affected the market, even if it is a small ripple. Having a global auction house wouldn't change that. I can already accomplish the same effect simply by selling in zone chat. ESO already has a global auction house in place, you just have to travel between 200 vendors to access it.

What actually happens is that you sell stuff cheaply thinking you are impacting the system and people buy it from you and list it on their traders for the real market value of the items.

You aren't online all day. You aren't serving the entire population of your mega server. Your just one guy spamming zone chat at certain times during the day. Guild Traders are open to everybody all day long. That serve the entire population of the mega server(all factions.) Your few zone chat spam sales don't impact that at all.

I do the bulk of my trading using Guild Traders, and I can tell you that the economy of traders is not impacted at all by zone chat sellers. For example, people sell their spell power pots for 9k-10k in zone chat all day. However, they still sell in guild traders for 10-11k all day.

Like I said, I'm just one player but if enough players did this, it would have a measurable impact.

timidobserver · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

Undercutting and price fixing can be accomplished via zone chat, no auction house required. I know, I do it every day. I sell resources for well below average market value. I can do this because I gather resources in large quantities. I have a sizeable regular customer base because of this. I post prices for these resources in zone chat daily and players know that my price isn't going to change. As a result, I have affected the sale of resources from vendors and other players who are charging higher prices. Now I'm just one player, but if enough players did this, then everyone would start to expect to be able to get those resources at the lower price and wouldn't buy from those selling them at a higher price. Thus, the entire market is affected, no auction house required.

On the other hand, if I start buying resources from players and offer considerably more than the average market price, eventually it is going to drive up the price of those resources because that's what players are going to expect for them.

Like I said, I'm only one player, but I've already affected the market, even if it is a small ripple. Having a global auction house wouldn't change that. I can already accomplish the same effect simply by selling in zone chat. ESO already has a global auction house in place, you just have to travel between 200 vendors to access it.

What actually happens is that you sell stuff cheaply thinking you are impacting the system and people buy it from you and list it on their traders for the real market value of the items.

You aren't online all day. You aren't serving the entire population of your mega server. Your just one guy spamming zone chat at certain times during the day. Guild Traders are open to everybody all day long. That serve the entire population of the mega server(all factions.) Your few zone chat spam sales don't impact that at all.

I do the bulk of my trading using Guild Traders, and I can tell you that the economy of traders is not impacted at all by zone chat sellers. For example, people sell their spell power pots for 9k-10k in zone chat all day. However, they still sell in guild traders for 10-11k all day.

Like I said, I'm just one player but if enough players did this, it would have a measurable impact.

Exactly, that is the point and the difference. With a Global AH, one guy or a couple of people with enough gold can completely own the market on certain items. You cannot do that even if you had 3 or 4 people working with you. With our current system you would need "enough players." Even with a large cartel group, it would be difficult to pull off in ESO as things currently are.

You don't have enough product to make a measurable impact. A power trader probably just buys up your cheap stuff and sticks it on his guild traders.

Grapdjan · February 2015

One of the main drawbacks of the current system is that it made so many people leave - and stopped so many people joining. A major longevity feature of MMO is 'economy pvp' and wealth accumulation. And they made it so bloody tedious to buy anything here that it's put so many people off playing.

Grapdjan · February 2015

The idea of power traders/cartels etc just is smoke in the eyes. Unlike RW trading there is an unlimited amount of everything in Tamriel. So trying to buy a commodity outright and controlling the market just wouldn't happen, not 100%.

The thing that amazes me is that people are confusing 'complex' with 'tedious' when discussing the merits of the current system.

I've seen MMOs over the years use a lot of bunk features to try to camouflage the lack of content, but making it so a simple trade can potentially take going through 10 zones and a load of counter intuitive searches reliant on third party add ons is the most ridiculous.

Grapdjan · February 2015

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

This thread has been done ad infinitum before. Not trying to be a ***, but use the search function.

To summarize all the threads on it, there are those that love the guild trader system -- people who are sellers -- and those of us who despise the system -- non-sellers.

It's been done to death because people come here to ask about it, before it becomes the thing they quit over, as its such a broken, crappy, boring, tedious, useless and ultimately game breaking idea.

Sharee · February 2015

Grapdjan wrote: »

One of the main drawbacks of the current system is that it made so many people leave - and stopped so many people joining.

I do not believe it made many people leave(how do you know?), and certainly do not believe it stopped anyone from joining.

"Hey dude, there's a great game, fantastic looking and crazy good PvP, i would love to play it, but you know what, when i want to buy from other players, i have to visit several NPC traders instead of one, no way in hell i am going to do that!"

Yeah, no.

SFBryan18 · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

Undercutting and price fixing can be accomplished via zone chat, no auction house required. I know, I do it every day. I sell resources for well below average market value. I can do this because I gather resources in large quantities. I have a sizeable regular customer base because of this. I post prices for these resources in zone chat daily and players know that my price isn't going to change. As a result, I have affected the sale of resources from vendors and other players who are charging higher prices. Now I'm just one player, but if enough players did this, then everyone would start to expect to be able to get those resources at the lower price and wouldn't buy from those selling them at a higher price. Thus, the entire market is affected, no auction house required.

On the other hand, if I start buying resources from players and offer considerably more than the average market price, eventually it is going to drive up the price of those resources because that's what players are going to expect for them.

Like I said, I'm only one player, but I've already affected the market, even if it is a small ripple. Having a global auction house wouldn't change that. I can already accomplish the same effect simply by selling in zone chat. ESO already has a global auction house in place, you just have to travel between 200 vendors to access it.

What you described is not price fixing, it's supply and demand and the reason this system works so well. It is expected that people in zone chat must sell for lower than the trader kiosks or there would be no reason to buy from them. If the supply is high, then merchants must lower their prices to sell, just like if supply is low merchants can charge more. This is an example of a very healthy economy, and it would not exist if all prices were visible in one place.

sirston · February 2015

We all agree that this is beating a dead horse argument but Ill weigh my views on how the economy in the game is a interesting problem.
The current system makes all prices flux so much that there are no fixed prices its usually between this much and that much on most items All items prices are regulated by the seller and generally not the consumer if the majority of the sellers put the prices based on past prices, so the prices never change dramatically unless the item dies off in drops. Currently the US server is heavily inflated so prices are generally more expensive for mats compared to the EU server which the only way I think that is possible is due to the population of each server is different. I preferably like the current system but would enjoy a more in depth search feature such, as searching for names of the item and not scroll through countless useless white items.

xaraan · February 2015

I like the system as is, but I do have a couple wishes...

A better search using keyword that would search the whole store you are at.

And a "bulletin board" where players could post notes on gear they are looking for, like a WTB listing.

Keepercraft · February 2015

EVEonline don't have global Auction House and have best MMO economy.

Global Auction House will be kill local economy in that game.

AshySamurai · February 2015

crislevin wrote: »

I liked D3's auction house. Something similar would be fine here.

@crislevin LOL! I was able to "earn" much more gold rather than just furming it. I farmed my first 1kk and then traded it into ~500-700kk in just one month. (Ah, good old days with OP sets and passives) That was a disaster for economics. Maybe this is the reason Blizzard closed AH in D3 RoS?

Audigy · February 2015

The big issue with the current system is the accessibility.

You MUST be in a guild to sell items, this is just horrible for Casuals and those not interested in all the guild drama that always happens.

Personally I don't need a global AH, but I need a trading post where I can sell my items to everyone. As long I can not do this, I wont buy from traders, which reflects what many people currently wont do and why the current system doesn't work properly. The potential amount of buyers is so low, as people cant make money themselves without having access to the traders as non guild members. Money however you need to go shopping

I think its sad that people in guilds don't want to see how limited their buyers are, you could make a lot more gold if the trader would allow that strangers sell goods too.

Ultima Online still has the best trading system, everyone had his or her own shop and all was fine. That "guild only" system of ESO is I am sorry to say, one of the worst I have come across in over 20 years.

With a Global AH, one guy or a couple of people with enough gold can completely own the market on certain items.

I don't think so,

at WOW I can always sell my goods for a decent amount of money, over time selling my stuff has become a main thing to do for a non Raider there. Nobody controls anything there, you make the prices and not someone else

Not saying ESO needs such an AH, but as mentioned for traders like me the current system is worthless as we can not sell anything. My banks are full and I cant sell it to anyone except the vendors, its so annoying that I already stopped picking up things...

AshySamurai · February 2015

Audigy wrote: »

.

With a Global AH, one guy or a couple of people with enough gold can completely own the market on certain items.

I don't think so,

at WOW I can always sell my goods for a decent amount of money, over time selling my stuff has become a main thing to do for a non Raider there. Nobody controls anything there, you make the prices and not someone else

I remember in D3 most powerful items was always unacceptable for casual players. You was needed to farm 24/7 or "play market". It's possible to own market.

zeuseason · February 2015

After taking a long break from this game and coming back into it, one of the worst features this game offers (among a few others) is the guild AH. Not having a global AH or some-type-of-large-scale AH hurts this game tremendously.

Keepercraft · February 2015

How about add moving merchants on the map with Auction House options, but access to all.
Like caravans who will be traveling over world.

timidobserver · February 2015

Audigy wrote: »

You MUST be in a guild to sell items, this is just horrible for Casuals and those not interested in all the guild drama that always happens.

Personally I don't need a global AH, but I need a trading post where I can sell my items to everyone. As long I can not do this, I wont buy from traders, which reflects what many people currently wont do and why the current system doesn't work properly. The potential amount of buyers is so low, as people cant make money themselves without having access to the traders as non guild members. Money however you need to go shopping

I think its sad that people in guilds don't want to see how limited their buyers are, you could make a lot more gold if the trader would allow that strangers sell goods too.

Ultima Online still has the best trading system, everyone had his or her own shop and all was fine. That "guild only" system of ESO is I am sorry to say, one of the worst I have come across in over 20 years. .

It is kind of funny how how a guy that "won't buy from a trader" seems to know so much about them. Just because you wont use them does not mean that no one will. Traders get a lot of transactions ATM. That will only go up when Tamriel Unlimted releases.

Also this irrational fear of guild drama is wrong. In most trade guilds, the only rule is that your account remains active. If you are afraid of people or drama, you could literally disable guild chat for that guild.

I'd say at least give it a solid try before you reach a conclusion. That way your opinion is at least informed and based on personal experience.