DanielMaxwell wrote: »

While I like the idea it is unlikely to be implemented by ZOS since they are already redoing all of the VR content to be balanced for level 50 plus Champion System .

If they where to do this they would have to scrap everything on the PTS right now , since the new skills would have to be rebalanced along with the stats , which would mean a substantial amount of recoding to implement such a change as your proposing .

See that is the beauty of this type of conversion. They wouldn't have to scrap anything. Characters, gear, crafting mats, buff food, and monsters/mobs would be scaled exactly how they are right now. The only and major difference would be that you would reach level cap (63) much faster. You would be relevant at endgame much sooner. You would basically eliminate the main thing about Vet Ranks that people dislike - the amount of time it takes to reach level cap.

Then by making Cadwell's Silver/Gold optional, characters would be able to complete quests, objectives anywhere within Tamriel w/o being forced to complete a long (25-30 quests) chain.

We are all going to be farming Champion Points anyways. With this system, we could use all of the existing content to farm CP instead of being forced to use it all up in order to reach level cap and become relevant.

The way it is right now, by the time you are endgame relevant, most of the content is gone. It's gone because you had no choice but to consume most of it in order to reach level cap. With this type of conversion, you would be level capped and still have most of the content available to farm CP.

The best part is they wouldn't have to change any of the gear at all.

jeevin wrote: »

I would consider any idea on Vet Rank removal worth looking at but the problem is Zos is so far behind with the next patch there is very little hope of the Vet Ranks being removed in the near future. Some players, myself included, doubt Zos will ever have the opportunity to remove them.

Yeah. There is no realistic chance at this point that any of this will happen before console release. But there is no harm in planting a seed now in hopes that it grows.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

While I like the idea it is unlikely to be implemented by ZOS since they are already redoing all of the VR content to be balanced for level 50 plus Champion System .

If they where to do this they would have to scrap everything on the PTS right now , since the new skills would have to be rebalanced along with the stats , which would mean a substantial amount of recoding to implement such a change as your proposing .

See that is the beauty of this type of conversion. They wouldn't have to scrap anything. Characters, gear, crafting mats, buff food, and monsters/mobs would be scaled exactly how they are right now. The only and major difference would be that you would reach level cap (63) much faster. You would be relevant at endgame much sooner. You would basically eliminate the main thing about Vet Ranks that people dislike - the amount of time it takes to reach level cap.

Then by making Cadwell's Silver/Gold optional, characters would be able to complete quests, objectives anywhere within Tamriel w/o being forced to complete a long (25-30 quests) chain.

We are all going to be farming Champion Points. We would have access to every objective/quest currently available. The only difference would be that we would be completing most of these quests/objectives at level cap so we could participate in endgame content at the same time we farm CP instead of being forced to complete every bit of content in the game before being able to participate in endgame.

The way it is right now, by the time you are endgame relevant, most of the content is gone. It's gone because you had no choice but to consume most of it in order to reach level cap. With this type of system, you would be level capped and still have most of the content available to farm CP.

The best part is they wouldn't have to change any of the gear at all.

oh I am fully aware of that since I suggested doing something like this back in December , and I doubt I was the first person to have this idea either .

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1441025/#Comment_1441025

Quote of post #344 from the Champion System Clarification thread

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Suggestion 2


Phase 3 ZOS raises the level cap to 70 , converts all veteran ranks over to the appropriate level . All veteran rank NPC's and quests are also assigned the new appropriate levels . Phase 4 is when players gain access to the champion system with phase 4 being delayed until ZOS has had the time to develop the needed leveling content for levels 63-70.

Level conversion (vr1 = level 50 , vr2 = level 51 , vr3 = level 52 , vr4 = level 53 , vr55 = level 54 , vr6 = level 55 , vr7 = level 56 , vr8 = level 57 , vr9 = level 58 , vr10 = level 59 , vr11 = level 60 , vr12 = level 61 , vr13 = level 62 , vr14 = level 63)

Pros : no body loses content, no players are reset , removes VR system without punishing current VR players , and does not require rebalancing of existing content .

Cons : some players will grind repeatable content to level 70 early to gain a PvP/PVE advantage , Phase 4 is delayed for an unknown length of time while the new leveling content is developed

Fair enough. Though I'm still confused as to why anything would have to be scrapped. They would only have to make 3 key changes.
1. The text on both characters and items from "VR" to "level".
2. The XP required post lvl 50/XP rewarded post lvl 50.
3. A script separating XP and CP so that you would still earn CP at the existing rate, or simply reduce the amount of XP required to earn a CP so that it would match the adjusted XP.

And make Silver/Gold optional. That wouldn't be necessary, but it would make more sense and should be fairly easy.

Alphashado wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

While I like the idea it is unlikely to be implemented by ZOS since they are already redoing all of the VR content to be balanced for level 50 plus Champion System .

If they where to do this they would have to scrap everything on the PTS right now , since the new skills would have to be rebalanced along with the stats , which would mean a substantial amount of recoding to implement such a change as your proposing .

See that is the beauty of this type of conversion. They wouldn't have to scrap anything. Characters, gear, crafting mats, buff food, and monsters/mobs would be scaled exactly how they are right now. The only and major difference would be that you would reach level cap (63) much faster. You would be relevant at endgame much sooner. You would basically eliminate the main thing about Vet Ranks that people dislike - the amount of time it takes to reach level cap.

Then by making Cadwell's Silver/Gold optional, characters would be able to complete quests, objectives anywhere within Tamriel w/o being forced to complete a long (25-30 quests) chain.

We are all going to be farming Champion Points. We would have access to every objective/quest currently available. The only difference would be that we would be completing most of these quests/objectives at level cap so we could participate in endgame content at the same time we farm CP instead of being forced to complete every bit of content in the game before being able to participate in endgame.

The way it is right now, by the time you are endgame relevant, most of the content is gone. It's gone because you had no choice but to consume most of it in order to reach level cap. With this type of system, you would be level capped and still have most of the content available to farm CP.

The best part is they wouldn't have to change any of the gear at all.

oh I am fully aware of that since I suggested doing something like this back in December , and I doubt I was the first person to have this idea either .

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1441025/#Comment_1441025

Quote of post #344 from the Champion System Clarification thread

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Suggestion 2


Phase 3 ZOS raises the level cap to 70 , converts all veteran ranks over to the appropriate level . All veteran rank NPC's and quests are also assigned the new appropriate levels . Phase 4 is when players gain access to the champion system with phase 4 being delayed until ZOS has had the time to develop the needed leveling content for levels 63-70.

Level conversion (vr1 = level 50 , vr2 = level 51 , vr3 = level 52 , vr4 = level 53 , vr55 = level 54 , vr6 = level 55 , vr7 = level 56 , vr8 = level 57 , vr9 = level 58 , vr10 = level 59 , vr11 = level 60 , vr12 = level 61 , vr13 = level 62 , vr14 = level 63)

Pros : no body loses content, no players are reset , removes VR system without punishing current VR players , and does not require rebalancing of existing content .

Cons : some players will grind repeatable content to level 70 early to gain a PvP/PVE advantage , Phase 4 is delayed for an unknown length of time while the new leveling content is developed

Fair enough. Though I'm still confused as to why anything would have to be scrapped. They would only have to make 3 key changes.
1. The text on both characters and items from "VR" to "level".
2. The XP required post lvl 50/XP rewarded post lvl 50.
3. A script separating XP and CP so that you would still earn CP at the existing rate.

because evrything on the PTS is coded for the removal of the VR system and incoming content nerfs when that happens . they are balancing the new stuff at level 50 and trying to figure out how much they have to nerf the content to make the current VR2-14 content doable at level 50 without making existing VR2-14 characters overpowered .

the reason they are unlikely to reverse course and do what you or I have suggested is they are to close to the console launch so they are locked into what they currently are doing in order to meet contractual deadlines.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Come the champion system, all the V regions will be at 50, and people can do whatever they want at a level cap of 50, and will earn c-points instead.

With the suggested conversion, people will be able to do whatever they want at a lvl cap of 63 and will earn CP after that. It's no different than what you are suggesting except raising the cap to 63 instead of 50 will allow for a smooth conversion where nothing will become obsolete.

Switching to lvl 50 would mean removing every single item in the game above level 50. By simply raising the cap to 63, you could keep every single item in the game just the way it is, and by using the same rate of XP on 50-63 as we use from 1-50, it would achieve the same goal as capping everything at lvl 50. It's a win/win as far as I see it.

You would eliminate the mindless grind to endgame relevance.
You would be able to retain every single item in the game above level 50.

I think you may be confused about the Champion System. They are not removing Vet Ranks for at least 6 months and maybe more. The Champion System is going into effect in roughly one week, and it will include the current Vet Ranks.

I think I would rather just see a lvl cap of 50 with ilvl gear, then have a cap increase later for an expansion, like most every other MMO does. Certain things Elder Scrolls should be different from other MMOs (like questing, exploring, more sandboxy features, etc.) but I think it's a mistake to have either frequent level cap increases as they have been, or completely get rid of any kind of vertical gear progression which is what they seem to have planned. Two problems I see with this: It means that the only kind of progression we will be getting for our characters will be in champion points and that's a huge grind, and content may not be very challenging at all since DLCs will be doable by level 1s. Hopefully that is not the case.

I usually dislike the suggestions of turning V1-V14 into Levels up to 63, but I think this one has some foundations. It's essentially the same as scaling everything back to 50, but keeps the Veteran-Ranked items valid by instead scaling back to 63. But if you are capping out at what was previously V2/V3, how do you measure progress through Cadwell's? The Rift would be no more difficult than Deshaan, and that would mean it wouldn't feel like you were "progressing" through the content.

Level 63? Really? Stick with even numbers divisible by 5 and the coup would be more content.

Less-numbers, more play and content!

I think every item, skill and a attribute would be re balanced using the ratio between VR 14 and Level 50. This brings the VR items and attributes down to level 50 while maintaining the same balance with all the attributes, items, and NPC's. The following videos is a rough idea of what I am referring to:The VR-14 players items and skill attributes would remain the same, but the level 50 users and below would have their skills and items re-balanced to make them more powerful. Note that this only changes the ratio between items and skill sets. etc. The players will still remain at their current level, so they can still purchase and make items at their current level.

There are two areas that I can't easily see getting resolved:

1) The extra 14 attributes that a VR14 player has over a level 50
2) How to increase the difficulty levels for the Cadwel's and Craglorn zones if level 50 is the max level.

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

This could've worked prior to CP's being introduced but now this seems a best idea for a temporary solve.

If CP's begin an earned status at level 50, then level 50 needs to be the cap.
VR and numerical levels above 50 for us need to go away. As far as NPC levels, I think it's great.

I did want this to happen but after playing on PTS, I see no reason why at 1.7 that all VR levels can't be removed.

Ppl are concerned about VR items....in short, keep that stats and change the level req to 50.

Zenimax can then adjust stats on equipment to mimic the old VR system based on npc numeric level which is a basic change.

CP's would then need to be meaningful as a VR level but apply as an account vs per character.

It's a major change but one that needs to happen way before June 9th

Before June 9th?

It just isn't going to happen. We know the console release will be the same as the PC TU release in March. They've said that there won't be any new re-balancing soon.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

because evrything on the PTS is coded for the removal of the VR system and incoming content nerfs when that happens . they are balancing the new stuff at level 50 and trying to figure out how much they have to nerf the content to make the current VR2-14 content doable at level 50 without making existing VR2-14 characters overpowered .

the reason they are unlikely to reverse course and do what you or I have suggested is they are to close to the console launch so they are locked into what they currently are doing in order to meet contractual deadlines.

Again, they aren't implementing a non-VR world for the console release.

Where do you get the idea that everything is being re-balanced in the PTS ready for the removal of the VR system? They are adding VR10 foods!

@I_killed_Vivec probably because that is what ZOS has planed since they announced the 4 phase implementation plan for the removal of the VR system alongside the launch of the champion system

Phase 3 (what is on the PTS) is the Phase when they planed to introduce the champion system and make some of the larger mechanics changes that ZOS feels are needed to support that system and to begin the process of removing the VR system . they overlap of the two systems is problematic , what is nerfed and what is buffed in the patch for removing the VR system will be heavily effected by this time frame . Some players will get nerfed and some will be buffed by the changes.
Phase 4 will contain the final balancing for the removal of the VR system along with the removal of that system .



The kick in the arse for all of us that if ZOS had done something along what I had suggested back in December , or what is suggested in the OP , before putting the Phase 3 code on the PTS , they could be launching the champion system with the console launch and no VR system . Instead ZOS stuck with the plan they had which made this whole process much more complicated then it needed to be.

Enodoc wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I usually dislike the suggestions of turning V1-V14 into Levels up to 63, but I think this one has some foundations. It's essentially the same as scaling everything back to 50, but keeps the Veteran-Ranked items valid by instead scaling back to 63. But if you are capping out at what was previously V2/V3, how do you measure progress through Cadwell's? The Rift would be no more difficult than Deshaan, and that would mean it wouldn't feel like you were "progressing" through the content.

Champion points are the new progression post 49.

Not relevant to my point. I'm talking about content difficulty progression, not stats progression. If everything above VR2/VR3 was scaled down to Level 63, how would The Rift be more challenging than Deshaan?

None of that would change. The Rift would be exactly more challenging than Deshaan is right now. The only difference is that you would be level capped by the time you got there.

People are concerned about losing a sense of progression, but they fail to recognize that the Champion system is progression. If we drop the level cap to 50, then the Champion System will be the only form of progression after level 50. This conversion is exactly the same as dropping the cap to level 50 with the only exception being raising the cap to 63 in order to avoid having to scrap every item in the game above level 50 which is a monumental task.

If we drop the cap to 50, all of the content above level 50 would be only for earning Champion Points. What I am suggesting is a way for us to do the same thing w/o having to re itemize 2/3's of the programming. The idea is to keep it simple so that ZoS is more likely to actually make it happen.

Sure, that makes sense. However, this suggestion partially ignores the fact that everything from V1-V14 is Level 50, so some reitemization would still need to occur to change that. The system would need to recognize that VRs go above 50, as opposed to the current setup of them being part of 50.

So ZOS has to determine whether it is easier to reitemize based on everything being Level 50, or everything being separated by 14 increments. Both are true currently, but only one will remain.

Vet gear is not level 50. Only V1 is the same as level 50. Armor and weapon damage scale up through the Vet Ranks. An easy way to see this is just look at the weapon damage for a weapon. You will see that a V1 weapon does X amount of damage, and it scales up for each Vet Rank. So a V14 weapon does significantly more damage than a V1 weapon. So the Vet Ranked items are not level 50, they are in fact already level 50-63