Why XP Potions are showing a horrific progression towards a Pay to Win mentality.

starkerealm · February 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

So, the road ahead says you can purchase the pots for in-game gold. Given that, I don't see the point of this thread.

It's a bit of good old fashioned, disingenuous, fear mongering... or demagogy, either way.

I can get some legitimate anxiety about taking what the developers are saying at face value, after the Senche Mount confusion/lack of information/misinformation/miscommunication mess. But, it is getting blown out of proportion by people who are looking to get a good rise out of the community, and then sit back and cackle while the place catches fire.

Joejudas · February 2015

So I linked the road ahead article earlier in this post saying that they won't be available for in game gold. They said they would at first...and then they said they wouldn't be.

c0rp · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

So I linked the road ahead article earlier in this post saying that they won't be available for in game gold. They said they would at first...and then they said they wouldn't be.

Actually, this was the quote:

"We're still discussing what convenience items we'll also make available for purchase in-game with gold. Nothing is defined yet, though."

That statement does not indicate yes or no either way.

Whether or not they are or aren't is completely moot since they are not p2w. Not anywhere near p2w. And this minority that thinks they are wouldn't be saying this if they had ever played a real p2w game. Go educate yourselves and stop making foolish claims on a public forum using a term you don't even understand.

Snit · February 2015

If ZOS can't make money, the game will stagnate. People will only pay so much for horse armor and other cosmetics.

Also, the Ring of Mara is extremely limited. Most people don't duo with the same partner every day all day. 20% is probably the maximum sustained boost level for almost everyone.

Anvos · February 2015

Not sure why people say experience boosters are pay to win, there is already more than enough to do, to be consistently over leved from outside Tutorial zone to vet. All this really does is allow people who aren't completionists or don't want to play vet zones to be more competitive without mindlessly grinding.

Also from what I heard ring of mara is as much hassle as bonus unless you are actually playing with a friend.

Not to mention until we see the pricing scheme we still don't know how well pay for crowns equates price of new dlcs when compared to the monthly stipend of crowns.

starkerealm · February 2015

c0rp wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

So I linked the road ahead article earlier in this post saying that they won't be available for in game gold. They said they would at first...and then they said they wouldn't be.

Actually, this was the quote:

"We're still discussing what convenience items we'll also make available for purchase in-game with gold. Nothing is defined yet, though."

That statement does not indicate yes or no either way.

Whether or not they are or aren't is completely moot since they are not p2w. Not anywhere near p2w. And this minority that thinks they are wouldn't be saying this if they had ever played a real p2w game. Go educate yourselves and stop making foolish claims on a public forum using a term you don't even understand.

Honestly, 90% of the players who are screaming Pay to Win fall into one of two categories. Trolls, who are trying to set a fire for their own amusement, and players who have no prior experience with pay to win systems that are mistaking the trolls' points for legitimate arguments. The other people using it are ones who've come out of disastrous F2P transitions and are having PTSD flashbacks.

starkerealm · February 2015

Anvos wrote: »

Also from what I heard ring of mara is as much hassle as bonus unless you are actually playing with a friend.

Honestly, the ring's is just a hassle to deal with. I game with my girlfriend, and our ringed characters are in semi-permanent stasis, because we need to be in the mood to play that specific combo of characters at the same time.

JamilaRaj · February 2015

Anvos wrote: »

Not sure why people say experience boosters are pay to win, there is already more than enough to do, to be consistently over leved from outside Tutorial zone to vet. All this really does is allow people who aren't completionists or don't want to play vet zones to be more competitive without mindlessly grinding.

This is same "I do not have time for X, so I'll buy it" fallacy Pete Hines pulled off in ESO live. Sounds good, that's why he used it, but it's still fallacy, because mindlessly grinding people can buy various XP/whatever boosts as well, and their +% bonuses from more massive base to begin with, will be also more massive in absolute numbers (and per unit of currency).
It's P2W because paying player will buy effectively better stats, advantage over player that won't pay.

starkerealm wrote: »

Honestly, 90% of the players who are screaming Pay to Win fall into one of two categories. Trolls, who are trying to set a fire for their own amusement, and players who have no prior experience with pay to win systems that are mistaking the trolls' points for legitimate arguments.

On the contrary, experience with pay to win systems taught us that there is no such thing as ethical microtransactions.

starkerealm · February 2015

JamilaRaj wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Honestly, 90% of the players who are screaming Pay to Win fall into one of two categories. Trolls, who are trying to set a fire for their own amusement, and players who have no prior experience with pay to win systems that are mistaking the trolls' points for legitimate arguments.

On the contrary, experience with pay to win systems taught us that there is no such thing as ethical microtransactions.

So... signing you up for category 3.

Thing is, there are. And weirdly enough you do see them from time to time. If you look at the crown store right now, it's actually a pretty solid case for it. The only iffy bit is the Imperial Edition upgrade, but that's always been a problem, and the repair kits, which aren't really better than the in game versions.

Almost everything is cosmetic. The stuff that isn't (the potions, gems and repair kits) aren't particularly valuable.

Now, we've certainly seen unethical micro-transactions in the past. Paying to bypass time. Paying for basic resources. Paying to be allowed to level up to a new tier. Paying to roll the dice on a lockbox. Having to roll the dice on every upgrade. Paying to respawn.

If there was a microtransaction that allowed you to instantly finish out one of your research projects? Yeah, that would be unethical as hell.

If you needed to cough up a microtransaction for each upgrade mat you used in crafting? That would be unethical.

If you needed to cough up cash in order to actually use your undaunted keys, that would be unethical.

If enemies were actually dropping lockboxes, that would be unethical. Especially if those lockboxes refused to stack, auto looted, and couldn't be deleted or sold to vendors.

But, there's nothing like that. Just stuff like, "hey, do you want to look like you're wearing bosmer tier 1 light armor?" Or, "do you want to ride a guar instead of a horse?"

Actually, yeah, the horses being in there is a little iffy, except the choice there is you can spend 10k gold and get a horse for all of your characters, or you can spend 900 crowns. If it was still the pre-1.6 system, where you had to buy a horse for each character or, "oh, you can cough up some cash and never have to worry about that," that would be an issue. And, it is one of the issues with the Palamino and Imperial Edition.

Short version? This is about as ethical as we could probably expect from a microtransaction system. It's not perfect, but you're being asked if you want to support further game development through a subscription or through buying stuff that appeals to you ala carte. *shrugs*

Magdalina · February 2015

kdsrus07_ESO wrote: »

ESO is not going to be pay to win. saying it is, is implying your character is going to be more powerful or have advantages over others and a lvl boost is sad because it is already too easy but is NOT an advantage over other players. whether anyone likes it or not, lvl boost or not we all lvl at a different pace and we are only talking about 10%. The problem is that so many have complained about not having enough instant gratification that they had to dumb it down to the point its no longer a challenge.

The real problem is that it affects champion points gain, which directly influence your character strength.

I don't like this. I don't care for leveling speed(in fact I wish it was a LOT faster, leveling alts sucks), but champion points... I don't think anyone would have an issue if this didn't affect champ points, but it does and that's just too major to pass.

starkerealm · February 2015

Magdalina wrote: »

kdsrus07_ESO wrote: »

ESO is not going to be pay to win. saying it is, is implying your character is going to be more powerful or have advantages over others and a lvl boost is sad because it is already too easy but is NOT an advantage over other players. whether anyone likes it or not, lvl boost or not we all lvl at a different pace and we are only talking about 10%. The problem is that so many have complained about not having enough instant gratification that they had to dumb it down to the point its no longer a challenge.

The real problem is that it affects champion points gain, which directly influence your character strength.

I don't like this. I don't care for leveling speed(in fact I wish it was a LOT faster, leveling alts sucks), but champion points... I don't think anyone would have an issue if this didn't affect champ points, but it does and that's just too major to pass.

Depending on how it's set up, it honestly might not matter. 1 champion point is, basically, meaningless. "Oh, I chugged a potion and received a single champion point, I shall use it to increase my damage with swords and daggers by .1%. RUE THE DAY ALL OF YOU!"

If it's an XP bonus for the next hour, that's... basically 1 champion point if you're enlightened, if you're not, that's just wasting money. If it's an XP boost to the next level or champion point... then it's still pretty meaningless, because of the above.

If it was, "chug this, and receive 30 CP" then that would be a serious problem.

Gyudan · February 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

If it's an XP bonus for the next hour, that's... basically 1 champion point if you're enlightened, if you're not, that's just wasting money. If it's an XP boost to the next level or champion point... then it's still pretty meaningless, because of the above.

If it was, "chug this, and receive 30 CP" then that would be a serious problem.

Would "chug this and remain in the enlightened state until you get 10 CPs" be acceptable then?
They'd still have to play to get CPs, even though it's 4 times faster, riiight?

In my opinion XP boosters of any kind will be P2W as long as they affect the champion system. Considering 2 players of equal skill, the one with 1000 CPs will be significantly stronger than the one with 500 CPs. If that difference has been acquired through the cash shop, it's definitely P2W.

Cody · February 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

people already reach VR1 in less than 24 hours, then reach VR14 2-3 days later.

these XP boosts wont change anything, maybe make it a little faster, but no huge changes.

While I may disagree with that, they also affect Champion Points (since they are based on XP), which in turn allow people to bypass years of efforts and make their character 10-30% stronger than you.

then those people wont be very good:/

their new found abilites wont help them against someone with years of experience

What if it's a "good" player with years of experience that is spending thousands on those potions, becoming virtually unkillable to everyone else (even equally good/slightly better people)?

I would just throw my monitor across the room at that point (funny, that'd be even more expensive than the boosters... hmm..)

stop killing my idealism!!!!!!!

bah! useless.

well i hope it wont increase CP gain.

Inco · February 2015

Don't other MMO's have XP Boosters for sell in cash shops?

I would like to point out some people DON'T want boosters and are fine leveling nice and slow.

Others that don't have oodles of time don't mind having XP Boosters to use when time is available to level characters.

Don't see it as a P2W as it's open to everyone and doesn't provide BUFF's that can hurt or help anyone actually in game.

SURE.. use the "First to VR14" argument, but big deal most people already have VR14 characters that are hard core players.

DDuke · February 2015

Inco wrote: »

Don't other MMO's have XP Boosters for sell in cash shops?

I would like to point out some people DON'T want boosters and are fine leveling nice and slow.

Others that don't have oodles of time don't mind having XP Boosters to use when time is available to level characters.

Don't see it as a P2W as it's open to everyone and doesn't provide BUFF's that can hurt or help anyone actually in game.

SURE.. use the "First to VR14" argument, but big deal most people already have VR14 characters that are hard core players.

Except that these Boosters also apply to CP gain rate (as mentioned many times in this thread), which is something entirely different than leveling progress.

Maximizing CPs would take anywhere between 2-10 years for people, except people who purchase XP boosters who will be able to chip away a couple of years from that character progression & become stronger than you.

Hortator Mopa · February 2015

At work and I literally laughed out loud reading people say that you will be able to buy things in the store with in game gold.

This is your logic:
Lets make the store (the main source of our future income) compete with a in game currency that at this rate is easy to obtain 1,000,000 + gold easily.

No one will ever pay real money haha. Use common sense..

If it starts out as "purchasable with in game currency" it wont stay that way long when they see they are making no money.

Wolfshead · February 2015

Froggmann5 wrote: »

Ring of Mara - 10% XP Boost
ESO + - 10 % XP Boost
XP Boosting Potions - 10 XP Boost.

We already have a paid for 30% Boost in XP coming up, with nothing showing Zenimax won't stop this any time soon.

This all applies to Champion points as well. I wouldn't be bothered by this, except to get the 30% Increase in XP gain, you have to pay real life money for all of these methods. That, and there is absolutely no way to get them outside of paying out of pocket to Zenimax.

Inb4 "That's not very much."

You can't say that, because now, it affects champion points as well. Which means, that Within the first month of release, those that pay for these boosts will be at least two weeks ahead in acquisition of Champion Points, and total XP earned.

The only way this is reparable is if you can acquire the Ring of Mara and create the XP Potions in game yourselves as players. The XP potions being a high-high level potion, and them be trade-able. Rings of Mara that were not gotten during the Pre-Order, should be allowed in the game at a lower quality with a cool down.

I wonder when we'll have double XP Potions...

Well WoW have close to 70% with all boost you get in that game and people whine that is not enough in that game and here people whine for 30% boost and that is to much it is really fun i think

But i think 30% is ok but you have to reminder one thing OP Ring of Mara will only work one of you character and that your friend you have use the Ring with most be online at sametime and we only get 1 Ring of Mara per account and it is basically only we how buy The Elder Scrolls® Online Digital Imperial Edition which will remove after 17th next month and honest no one in right mind will buy Imperial Edition in crown shop if already have just to get 1 Ring of XP .

So basically we are only talk about 20% XP boost so that is not alot really beside potion XP boost can everyone get so it is not P2W for me P2W is more like people buy gear and weapon with really good stats for real money and beside SWTOR is also selling XP boost and it is not P2W for the only work for limited time.

Digiman · February 2015

Froggmann5 wrote: »

Ring of Mara - 10% XP Boost
ESO + - 10 % XP Boost
XP Boosting Potions - 10 XP Boost.

We already have a paid for 30% Boost in XP coming up, with nothing showing Zenimax won't stop this any time soon.

This all applies to Champion points as well. I wouldn't be bothered by this, except to get the 30% Increase in XP gain, you have to pay real life money for all of these methods. That, and there is absolutely no way to get them outside of paying out of pocket to Zenimax.

Inb4 "That's not very much."

You can't say that, because now, it affects champion points as well. Which means, that Within the first month of release, those that pay for these boosts will be at least two weeks ahead in acquisition of Champion Points, and total XP earned.

The only way this is reparable is if you can acquire the Ring of Mara and create the XP Potions in game yourselves as players. The XP potions being a high-high level potion, and them be trade-able. Rings of Mara that were not gotten during the Pre-Order, should be allowed in the game at a lower quality with a cool down.

I wonder when we'll have double XP Potions...

Come to me when they are selling legendary armor and weapons and they I will agree to it being a pay to win. Right now everyone can get to end level and every damn none pay to win mmo has XP boost packs.

Izzban · February 2015

LunaRae wrote: »

WoW hands out level boosts for 60$ ... why does it matter if someone gets a V14 character for $$$ ??? They don't receive an in-game advantage over someone who took the time to level a character in game. And they would still need to level up abilities, which is timely.

Let me ask you this. In the near future, when the newest MMO has a level cap of 500, what does it matter if they sell lv 10 characters for $1 and lv 50 characters for $100 while lv 200 characters cost $2000 and you can get a lv 400 character for $15,000? What does it matter, right? Lemme guess, more revenue for the developers?

You'll sell us all right down the line till we are all only able to play according to our income. The gaming industry has been a great equalizer for many years now. Looks like apathy and big business will control this (formerly) niche industry as well.

I can't wait to see the next (last) generation MMO where players buy their way into the game and play at levels according to how much money they spent. High rollers can come cream the poor plebs while the carrot keeps the masses trudging up the mountainside.

I don't need to defend this post, and won't. Save it and throw it in my face 15 years from now. I bet you'll be the one wiping the egg off.

starkerealm · February 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

If it's an XP bonus for the next hour, that's... basically 1 champion point if you're enlightened, if you're not, that's just wasting money. If it's an XP boost to the next level or champion point... then it's still pretty meaningless, because of the above.

If it was, "chug this, and receive 30 CP" then that would be a serious problem.

Would "chug this and remain in the enlightened state until you get 10 CPs" be acceptable then?
They'd still have to play to get CPs, even though it's 4 times faster, riiight?

If they start selling enlightenment potions, that's actually a serious issue. It's not an XP booster, and it would completely mess with Champion gain.

...oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was setting your strawman on fire.

An enlightenment potion would be close to a 4x gain on experience, and one that lasted for at least 10 hours would be pretty horrifically imbalanced. You're talking something that would take a legitimate player slightly over a week to accrue, and letting them snarf that down at once.

It doesn't change the fact that a single CP is freakin' worthless. Hell, most of the time, without the stats being inflated, you wouldn't even be able to see it affect anything on your character. 10 is starting to get into the range where, if you're looking, you might see a number move a little.

Gyudan wrote: »

In my opinion XP boosters of any kind will be P2W as long as they affect the champion system. Considering 2 players of equal skill, the one with 1000 CPs will be significantly stronger than the one with 500 CPs. If that difference has been acquired through the cash shop, it's definitely P2W.

Except, of course, we're not talking about someone having 1k to another's 500.

Okay, taking the enlightenment example before, let's spitball some numbers for your worst case scenario. A pack of 10 "enlightenment" potions that cost 200 Crowns, and grant a single point of enlightenment each. That seems to be 2 bucks, but... *shrugs* Let's go with that rate, for the moment.

If you have one player grinding with them, going through them whenever their old ones run out for 1k hours, they end up with 1k Champion points. For purpose of easy math, let's say there is no natural enlightenment.

You have one player grinding without them for 1k hours. They end up with 250. (Again, this would probably be 320 or so, because on PTS they would get some enlightenment naturally.)

Your player who was spending money would have had to spend 20k crowns for those potions. Or roughly $200 dollars, and still ground for 1000 hours.

So, where the snot did this guy come from? That they can blow 200 bucks on better numbers, still have to grind as a full time job. That's just stupid. That doesn't mean it wouldn't happen, mind, but that is just stupid.

And, this is kind of a worst case scenario. Timed potions are far more likely, and at that point you're looking at someone dropping 200 bucks to go from 250 to 275 in that thousand hours. Which isn't really a huge jump, and is even more of a waste.

I'm not about to defend the idea of enlightenment potions, but if it's just XP boosters, you're going to get better value just from being a subscriber than buying an XP booster.

LtCrunch · February 2015

Hunterdan wrote: »

.

Suggestion - Do not allow the crown store xp buff to stack with the subscription buff. If a player wishes to purchase the benefits of the premium service a la carte, I think most players would be cool with that.

This is what I've suggested all along. Don't allow the ESO+ XP boost and the Crown Store XP boost stack. This will limit the potential gap between ESO+ members and those playing for free while simultaneously giving free players an option to stay in line with ESO+ members.

Joejudas · February 2015

c0rp wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

So I linked the road ahead article earlier in this post saying that they won't be available for in game gold. They said they would at first...and then they said they wouldn't be.

Actually, this was the quote:

"We're still discussing what convenience items we'll also make available for purchase in-game with gold. Nothing is defined yet, though."

That statement does not indicate yes or no either way.

Whether or not they are or aren't is completely moot since they are not p2w. Not anywhere near p2w. And this minority that thinks they are wouldn't be saying this if they had ever played a real p2w game. Go educate yourselves and stop making foolish claims on a public forum using a term you don't even understand.

Well don't

Brandalf wrote: »

Hunterdan wrote: »

.

Suggestion - Do not allow the crown store xp buff to stack with the subscription buff. If a player wishes to purchase the benefits of the premium service a la carte, I think most players would be cool with that.

This is what I've suggested all along. Don't allow the ESO+ XP boost and the Crown Store XP boost stack. This will limit the potential gap between ESO+ members and those playing for free while simultaneously giving free players an option to stay in line with ESO+ members.

they shouldnt sell them at all

WhiskyBob · February 2015

Well assuming this game has 3650 levels now (50 levels + 3600 champion point "levels" every 400k xp) 30% boost to XP will make a huge difference.

jeevin · February 2015

WhiskyBob wrote: »

Well assuming this game has 3650 levels now (50 levels + 3600 champion point "levels" every 400k xp) 30% boost to XP will make a huge difference.

With strength that CPs give your characters it is indeed pay to win. Good job ZOS! Fooled me twice.

Hortator Mopa · February 2015

People are still talking about "if" this game is going p2w lol?

Of course it is.. its f2p.

ShadowDisciple · February 2015

Cry is free, boosters are not

#rekt

QuadroTony · February 2015

XP potions? i cannot see this potion on PTS or ingame

where are they?

ashlee17 · February 2015

Digiman wrote: »

Come to me when they are selling legendary armor and weapons and they I will agree to it being a pay to win. Right now everyone can get to end level and every damn none pay to win mmo has XP boost packs.

Why do some people say "yes" to selling xp boosters (ie champion points) in the store but "no" to gold upgrade mats and armour?

The boost to xp and champion points has the potential to make characters far stronger than selling gold mats/armour could.

I still vote no "on" both!

McDoogs · February 2015

They have to sell something that people will want to buy. As another poster pointed out, B2P/F2P changes the business focus from retaining loyal subscribers to maximizing the exploitation of churning new players at the expense of long term customers who expect new content (which costs a lot of money to develop). Within a year, i predict it will be incredibly easy to level using XP boosters purchased in the crown store.

wOOOOt_of_SD · February 2015

Im ok with XP pots. Its not P2W.
Its Pay to get a tiny advantage - not winning. Winning takes skills, and you cannot buy skills.