The guild members are not shareholders. They have no right to ask why their concerns were not addressed or when they will be implemented. It's entitlement issues like that, that would cause devs to ignore such groups.

The question of why the guild groups were not catered to is pointless, this game is becoming more and more casual. That's a fact. That's a completely different crowd to those they used to listen too.

In the past they focused on these end game elite guilds and the game bled players. Perhaps ignoring them ain't that bad an idea.

Islyn wrote: »

jeevin wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I'd like to know what guilds are considered as a credible source of feedback and why ? Everything's been broken since Beta . Maybe try another source .

Maybe Zos should stop listening to these "elite" guild people and start listening to the mass exodus that left not long after launch.

Why? THEY are already gone.

;-/

Guilds like Entropy Rising who were around at launch and are one of the bleeding-edge guilds are still here, your comment may be what you'd like to see to help a "the game is dying" agenda but the reality is they haven't and it isn't.

I don't raid, I'm on part of the 'scene' and TBH I was very vocal in condemning ZOS for talking to guilds like that while ignoring more run-of-the-mill guilds at the time, but your comment is clearly somewhat light on the vérité.

Nefrast wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

The guild members are not shareholders. They have no right to ask why their concerns were not addressed or when they will be implemented.

And because of this it's forbidden by death to ask nicely? In what world do you live?

It was not being asked nicely. It was being demanded, big difference.

roechacca wrote: »

When it comes to bugs still not fixed since Beta I'm gonna go with why in the world aren't they listening ? Or is someone not telling them ? If a product is broken a reasonable time for a fix is NOT a year later . This has nothing to do with personal attention . How can anyone recommend this game to friends when things that would have been a quick Hotfix in other MMO's has been ignored for a year ? An stop releasing updates we told you were filled with bugs in PTS . Be sensible . Quality assurance is held to a higher standard on consoles by 3rd party over sight companies . PC games should incorporate this to ensure consumer protections with them .

Didn't even realize this before right now. Has ZOS ever implemented a hotfix, or has everything been in larger patches?

Bigger patch, more goes wrong. I'd rather have a 5 hour maintenance every single Monday during off hours to hotfix things like quest bugs and the like.

I do know one guild I'm in, Akaviri Imports, had a chance to meet with them (I think Jessica, maybe Gina as well). It was mostly related to measures to improve the community as a whole. Not game balance.

seanvwolf wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I'd like to know what guilds are considered as a credible source of feedback and why ? Everything's been broken since Beta . Maybe try another source .

Well we know from a long time ago ZOS are in bed with Entropy Rising, ZOS was in their vent/ts channel way back in May/June IIRC. Also, from comments made by one or two 'green's round here it's likely ZOS also talk to Hodor and a couple of others.

The common factor is the guilds we know or suspect ZOS are talking to are elite end-game guilds, so in taking their views ZOS pretty much put Dracula in charge of the blood bank, to use a poor metaphor.

No idea where they get their PVP views from but if last week's 'live' is a reliable indicator 1.6 is more or less entirely focused on PVP and PVE is 'collateral damage', so not sure how much of ZOS elite friends' views will matter anyway.

Why talk to elite end-game guilds?

1) They are organized and can give a unified impression of the game state.
2) They can give the largest field impression of classes.
3) They spend the most time playing the content that the game provides.
4) They have their own communities outside the game that can draw other players in.
5) They play other games that are siblings to ESO and can get feedback on how competitive ZOS' game state is.
6) They are more apt to have already compiled their feedback as the game progressed.

End-game guilds have always been a source for feedback. Even before open Beta, they invited these large guilds to preview the game and give their feedback. ZOS likely did this to spread the word and increase numbers. But it is also because end-game guilds are the most active organized players in Trials and PvP. I'm sure there are ZOS employees who go under the radar and join guilds undercover to listen in on guild chat to get a more honest opinion of the game and hear about feedback on various class builds, but for something formalized (like a summit), inviting guild leadership just makes sense.

As a former ER member, I can tell you that the guild has voiced just as many concerns as the rest of the community and has not come away with any better answers on certain issues than people here on the forums. As is, the summit should have also included representation from guilds that are casual, RP, and heavy PvP focus if they expected to get and were interested in a full view of how the game was really working across all spectrums of playstyles.

The bottom line is that ZoS may grasp for information from a range of sources yet to date has consistently stumbled on being able to successfully implement what insight they are provided, however valuable, since they have their own views on how things need to work. Proof enough of this is in the changes they have made which seem totally out of left field, their frequent unwillingness to answer strightforward questions which have been put to them for months here, on Reddit, TF, ESO live, Twitch, etc. If you want to grow your knowledge of how to improve the game, you don't ingnore consistent feedback from multiple sources; you find a way to look into it and at the very least acknowledge the issues being presented with something akin to concern, if not full on transparency. They have yet to do this.

roechacca wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Yes bugs since beta . Weapon swap still bugs out since beta . Open door ability in Cyrodiil still bugs out . There's more but I'm not interested in furthering your dismissive troll attempt . Moving along ...

It seems like the most noticeable bugs are all related to (or magnified) in Cyrodil, which it seems the devs have all but abandoned. Every time I'm stuck in combat at a transit shrine after dying and not being able to travel, I want to log in just a little bit less.

Absolutely man . And no one that has waited patiently for a year wants to hear in nonsense about being treated special . I've been a subscriber since pre launch , participated in beta , tested on my own time even though I hate testing , just to do my part . I use to play test professionally for Sony back in college for extra cash when Ps1 was released . ZOS needs better over sight . This sort of thing would never fly for a year with the majority of game companies . Hot fixes are disruptive but they also show a company is on the ball when it comes to game breaking mechanics . I've never seen one implemented here .

Yeah, it's scary how little has been done.

And then you look at the crown store. Wait to you see how quickly that thing stays up to date. My big worry is that everything not directly tied to short-term profit is going to play second fiddle to the crown store. I haven't seen anything to make me think otherwise. I can pretty much guarantee that we'd have more fixes if this stayed sub based, and never went F2P/console, but that wasn't the plan from the start it would seem.


Edit: What am I talking about. We'll be able to harvest the mushroom outside of Nickel in 1.6. Nothing to see here. I take back everything.

No one has touched on the fact that as a whole this forum is completely the vocal minority.

Most people who play the game don't even know the changes coming.

If you are on this forum I guarantee you can go into any of your guilds and ask them if they saw any post on the forum and the answer will be "I don't go to the forums"

Noone can speak for the majority of this game. We may represent the majority of the forum posters in any one issue, but even then its divided.

There are a bunch of posts about sorcs being nerfed, and a bunch of posts about sorcs being OP sitting right next to each other. There are vampires suck and vampires are OP competing for first page. Templars hate that biting jabs got 'nerfed', everyone else is happy it got 'fixed'. People are upset about vigor being rank 10 and others are upset its not rank 14.

Remember your perception is your reality, but not everyone elses.

Step back look at the big picture and realize that even if you are completely and unequivocally 'right' on something as specific as sorc balance, it doesn't matter.

Be happy that you even had a chance to speak to someone, 99.9% of the player in the game don't get that chance.

yodased wrote: »

No one has touched on the fact that as a whole this forum is completely the vocal minority.

Most people who play the game don't even know the changes coming.

If you are on this forum I guarantee you can go into any of your guilds and ask them if they saw any post on the forum and the answer will be "I don't go to the forums"

Noone can speak for the majority of this game. We may represent the majority of the forum posters in any one issue, but even then its divided.

There are a bunch of posts about sorcs being nerfed, and a bunch of posts about sorcs being OP sitting right next to each other. There are vampires suck and vampires are OP competing for first page. Templars hate that biting jabs got 'nerfed', everyone else is happy it got 'fixed'. People are upset about vigor being rank 10 and others are upset its not rank 14.

Remember your perception is your reality, but not everyone elses.

Step back look at the big picture and realize that even if you are completely and unequivocally 'right' on something as specific as sorc balance, it doesn't matter.

Be happy that you even had a chance to speak to someone, 99.9% of the player in the game don't get that chance.

Bugs and balance are two totally, completely separate things. There will always be balance complaints, until the game servers are shut down.

Bugs, however, ruin things for everyone, and those shouldn't take a year or more to fix.

Samadhi wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

No one has touched on the fact that as a whole this forum is completely the vocal minority.

Most people who play the game don't even know the changes coming.

If you are on this forum I guarantee you can go into any of your guilds and ask them if they saw any post on the forum and the answer will be "I don't go to the forums"

Noone can speak for the majority of this game. We may represent the majority of the forum posters in any one issue, but even then its divided.

There are a bunch of posts about sorcs being nerfed, and a bunch of posts about sorcs being OP sitting right next to each other. There are vampires suck and vampires are OP competing for first page. Templars hate that biting jabs got 'nerfed', everyone else is happy it got 'fixed'. People are upset about vigor being rank 10 and others are upset its not rank 14.

Remember your perception is your reality, but not everyone elses.

Step back look at the big picture and realize that even if you are completely and unequivocally 'right' on something as specific as sorc balance, it doesn't matter.

Be happy that you even had a chance to speak to someone, 99.9% of the player in the game don't get that chance.

Accurate assessment.
Not only is the forum completely made up of vocal minority, it is a minority within that minority who are taking issues while claiming to represent the "majority" view.

It is kind of troubling that ZOS is balancing around a handful of people's requests. This sort of thing is likely exactly why the game ends up with such balance issues; nothing is being considered in the broader context and the people who are already satisfied do not even get the opportunity to speak up.

Even the largest and most active guild on the server only represents around 1% of the player population as a high-end estimate, if that.
So 1% gets extra cushy treatment and opportunities to request manipulations to the game code that favour them, while the 99% gets to wait to be slapped in the face with whatever changes their overlords decided were beneficial to their 1% gameplay.

Glad that ZOS is only partially listening to this feedback, and instead seems to be coming up with novel ways to deal with the issues they present rather than cater directly and solely to requests.

It is still distressing that they put so much effort into sourcing information from such small and unrepresentative groups though.

Quiet you filthy plebian! Atropos has spoken!!!

Rook_Master wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

No one has touched on the fact that as a whole this forum is completely the vocal minority.

Most people who play the game don't even know the changes coming.

If you are on this forum I guarantee you can go into any of your guilds and ask them if they saw any post on the forum and the answer will be "I don't go to the forums"

Noone can speak for the majority of this game. We may represent the majority of the forum posters in any one issue, but even then its divided.

There are a bunch of posts about sorcs being nerfed, and a bunch of posts about sorcs being OP sitting right next to each other. There are vampires suck and vampires are OP competing for first page. Templars hate that biting jabs got 'nerfed', everyone else is happy it got 'fixed'. People are upset about vigor being rank 10 and others are upset its not rank 14.

Remember your perception is your reality, but not everyone elses.

Step back look at the big picture and realize that even if you are completely and unequivocally 'right' on something as specific as sorc balance, it doesn't matter.

Be happy that you even had a chance to speak to someone, 99.9% of the player in the game don't get that chance.

Accurate assessment.
Not only is the forum completely made up of vocal minority, it is a minority within that minority who are taking issues while claiming to represent the "majority" view.

It is kind of troubling that ZOS is balancing around a handful of people's requests. This sort of thing is likely exactly why the game ends up with such balance issues; nothing is being considered in the broader context and the people who are already satisfied do not even get the opportunity to speak up.

Even the largest and most active guild on the server only represents around 1% of the player population as a high-end estimate, if that.
So 1% gets extra cushy treatment and opportunities to request manipulations to the game code that favour them, while the 99% gets to wait to be slapped in the face with whatever changes their overlords decided were beneficial to their 1% gameplay.

Glad that ZOS is only partially listening to this feedback, and instead seems to be coming up with novel ways to deal with the issues they present rather than cater directly and solely to requests.

It is still distressing that they put so much effort into sourcing information from such small and unrepresentative groups though.

Quiet you filthy plebian! Atropos has spoken!!!

Have a lot of personal respect for Atropos, but my personal respect does not change the situation.

ZOS is sourcing information for what needs to be changed from people with a narrow opinion of what the game even is.

Do not need solo gameplay and PvP getting changed up frequently due to people who run Trials being insistent that they could get a faster time if ZOS just tweaked the mechanics of their existing teams.
Only a fraction of the playerbase participates in Trials at all, let alone cares about having the top speeds. Everyone else gets hit with changes as a result of gameplay they may never participate in.
Hell, there have even been frequent and mass requests to remove or toggle off the Trials Notification popups simply due to mass disinterest in any connection to them at all.

Same issue arises with people complaining about PvP until PvE players get hit in the face by a nerf that they had no idea was coming, based on mechanics they have never used or encountered.

Clicking this thread even had me initially thinking it was going to be a complaint that ZOS was holding meetings with such isolated groups at all; never expected it to be part of the privileged group complaining about the privilege not feeling sufficient.

Rook_Master wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

No one has touched on the fact that as a whole this forum is completely the vocal minority.

Most people who play the game don't even know the changes coming.

If you are on this forum I guarantee you can go into any of your guilds and ask them if they saw any post on the forum and the answer will be "I don't go to the forums"

Noone can speak for the majority of this game. We may represent the majority of the forum posters in any one issue, but even then its divided.

There are a bunch of posts about sorcs being nerfed, and a bunch of posts about sorcs being OP sitting right next to each other. There are vampires suck and vampires are OP competing for first page. Templars hate that biting jabs got 'nerfed', everyone else is happy it got 'fixed'. People are upset about vigor being rank 10 and others are upset its not rank 14.

Remember your perception is your reality, but not everyone elses.

Step back look at the big picture and realize that even if you are completely and unequivocally 'right' on something as specific as sorc balance, it doesn't matter.

Be happy that you even had a chance to speak to someone, 99.9% of the player in the game don't get that chance.

Accurate assessment.
Not only is the forum completely made up of vocal minority, it is a minority within that minority who are taking issues while claiming to represent the "majority" view.

It is kind of troubling that ZOS is balancing around a handful of people's requests. This sort of thing is likely exactly why the game ends up with such balance issues; nothing is being considered in the broader context and the people who are already satisfied do not even get the opportunity to speak up.

Even the largest and most active guild on the server only represents around 1% of the player population as a high-end estimate, if that.
So 1% gets extra cushy treatment and opportunities to request manipulations to the game code that favour them, while the 99% gets to wait to be slapped in the face with whatever changes their overlords decided were beneficial to their 1% gameplay.

Glad that ZOS is only partially listening to this feedback, and instead seems to be coming up with novel ways to deal with the issues they present rather than cater directly and solely to requests.

It is still distressing that they put so much effort into sourcing information from such small and unrepresentative groups though.

Quiet you filthy plebian! Atropos has spoken!!!

Have a lot of personal respect for Atropos, but my personal respect does not change the situation.

ZOS is sourcing information for what needs to be changed from people with a narrow opinion of what the game even is.

Do not need solo gameplay and PvP getting changed up frequently due to people who run Trials being insistent that they could get a faster time if ZOS just tweaked the mechanics of their existing teams.
Only a fraction of the playerbase participates in Trials at all, let alone cares about having the top speeds. Everyone else gets hit with changes as a result of gameplay they may never participate in.
Hell, there have even been frequent and mass requests to remove or toggle off the Trials Notification popups simply due to mass disinterest in any connection to them at all.

Same issue arises with people complaining about PvP until PvE players get hit in the face by a nerf that they had no idea was coming, based on mechanics they have never used or encountered.

Clicking this thread even had me initially thinking it was going to be a complaint that ZOS was holding meetings with such isolated groups at all; never expected it to be part of the privileged group complaining about the privilege not feeling sufficient.

Got the joke, but there is no LOL button to rank you up for it; so, instead of pressing a button I decided to type up another redundant reply for the sake of psuedo-discussion.

Kragorn wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

jeevin wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I'd like to know what guilds are considered as a credible source of feedback and why ? Everything's been broken since Beta . Maybe try another source .

Maybe Zos should stop listening to these "elite" guild people and start listening to the mass exodus that left not long after launch.

Why? THEY are already gone.

;-/

Guilds like Entropy Rising who were around at launch and are one of the bleeding-edge guilds are still here, your comment may be what you'd like to see to help a "the game is dying" agenda but the reality is they haven't and it isn't.

I don't raid, I'm on part of the 'scene' and TBH I was very vocal in condemning ZOS for talking to guilds like that while ignoring more run-of-the-mill guilds at the time, but your comment is clearly somewhat light on the vérité.

Entropy Rising hasn't raided in months, the guild is dead, the leader(atropos) has basically given up on this game. I know because I was apart of the guild for a few months until last week.

These guild meetings are a joke, if ZOS actually let us stream/record it then everyone else would hear how much little feedback they actually respond to, even when a rep is in the same TS channel.