Why are meetings happening with guilds ?

Joejudas · February 2015

So recently my guild had a meeting with the one of the community managers...and it seems when 1.6.3 dropped the devs literally did the exact opposite of what was suggested by us. Specifically the nerfs to sorcerers. Do you actually take our notes back to the devs....cause it honestly felt like a waste of time after 1.6.3 hit the PTS.

edit: i dont mean to say or act like i speak for everyone...because i dont. i just wonder where the feedback comes from for the changes...every time a pts change comes out the community loses its mind.

Panda244 · February 2015

Oh Joe.... What are we going to do with you Joe....
On a sort of related topic, I want to know why suddenly guilds are recruiting in the forums... I've seen four separate guilds in the last day, never seen guild recruitment threads until the new forums. Personally I find it kind of irritating, as if the guild spam in Rawl'Kha and lower zones isn't enough

Joejudas · February 2015

Its not cool when the perspective is that none of that feedback matter for anything.

timidobserver · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

So recently my guild had a meeting with the one of the community managers...and it seems when 1.6.3 dropped the devs literally did the exact opposite of what was suggested by us. Specifically the nerfs to sorcerers. Do you actually take our notes back to the devs....cause it honestly felt like a waste of time after 1.6.3 hit the PTS. I'm sure you will just ban my thread like everything else I post. O well I guess.

If you don't want nerfs just leave well enough alone and ask them to stop changing stuff. The ZOS balancing methodology says that there cannot be a buffs without nerfs. If you want ZOS to make anything stronger about your class, they will make something else weaker in exchange.

Forestd16b14_ESO · February 2015

Here's my question.... Why do they meet with guilds to begin with? All the guilds will say is what they want and not what the entier community wants. How about a community summit were you invite random players who want the game to grown instead of a guild summit were they only say what they want.

sirston · February 2015

Im surprised that people still respect the word of zos, personalty I respect the employee's and people who work for them but there company image for me is gone they have to earn it back after multiple time of ruining its image to me. Now for a PR reason they will leave you a copy paste of saying sorry in some what complaicated words that will somehow be the guilds fault then their fault for getting things wrong....

Zheg · February 2015

First of all, try a little harder not to sound so ungrateful. Jessica and Gina are friggin awesome and do a lot of these outside of normal work hours to get feedback. Just because you don't see your specific feedback implemented, or implemented immediately, does not mean they don't appreciate or listen to what guilds are telling them. A lot of the time all they can do is pass on the info to development teams that are already in the midst of coding, perhaps something in an entirely different direction.

Furthermore, just because you and/or your guild think it's a good idea, does not mean that everyone else does, or the developers. The purpose of these is to get a sense for what the community thinks is working/not working with the game, and try to merge this with the developers' vision for the game. The purpose is NOT to receive orders from people like you, or me.

I agree sorc needs work, especially in regards to stamina focused sorcs, but there's no need to chicken-little the situation. Multiple threads on the same topic with the same exaggerated tones pop up on the forums every day. Contribute to those discussions rationally and provide detailed, reasonable feedback during the guild meetings and you'll actually be helping the situation rather than contributing to the hysteria.

For 'street cred' my first main was a khajiit sorc that I've tried to make work since launch, so unless you're an argonian sorc, you have less to complain about than I on this front

I doubt you had the meeting with them more than a couple of weeks ago at max, so why in the world do you assume developers can/will code that in and get it to a perfect state in such a quick turn around time? Chill, the message is pretty loud and clear that sorcs need more lovin'. If dev posts are contrary to this over the next few weeks, and nothing seems like it's going to happen, then you can start poking the bear.

Gemseed · February 2015

Sorry. I seem to have missed the part where the entire community was comprised solely of your guild.

Joejudas · February 2015

so the entire 1.6.3 feedback is full of people angry about sorc nerfs...its not just us. i simply point out im still confused on where they get the feedback from these changes. i should have figured the apologists would be along at some point.

Roechacca · February 2015

I'd like to know what guilds are considered as a credible source of feedback and why ? Everything's been broken since Beta . Maybe try another source .

Iago · February 2015

roechacca wrote: »

I'd like to know what guilds are considered as a credible source of feedback and why ? Everything's been broken since Beta . Maybe try another source .

that's actually a really good question they should post a list of all the guilds that their consulting.

jeevin · February 2015

roechacca wrote: »

I'd like to know what guilds are considered as a credible source of feedback and why ? Everything's been broken since Beta . Maybe try another source .

Maybe Zos should stop listening to these "elite" guild people and start listening to the mass exodus that left not long after launch.

Kragorn · February 2015

roechacca wrote: »

I'd like to know what guilds are considered as a credible source of feedback and why ? Everything's been broken since Beta . Maybe try another source .

Well we know from a long time ago ZOS are in bed with Entropy Rising, ZOS was in their vent/ts channel way back in May/June IIRC. Also, from comments made by one or two 'green's round here it's likely ZOS also talk to Hodor and a couple of others.

The common factor is the guilds we know or suspect ZOS are talking to are elite end-game guilds, so in taking their views ZOS pretty much put Dracula in charge of the blood bank, to use a poor metaphor.

No idea where they get their PVP views from but if last week's 'live' is a reliable indicator 1.6 is more or less entirely focused on PVP and PVE is 'collateral damage', so not sure how much of ZOS elite friends' views will matter anyway.

Joejudas · February 2015

yeah the feedback we gave obviously wasn't used

jeevin · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

yeah the feedback we gave obviously wasn't used

You must have your head in the sand. ESO isn't developed for gamers by gamers or for Elder Scrolls fans. It's managed by suits who don't care about anything but ringing the most $$$$ out of the franchise as they possibly can. Because having lots of $$$$ is so much better than having great entertainment for humankind to enjoy

Roechacca · February 2015

I'm just saying it like it is . Either ZOS isn't getting reliable feedback or their incompetence is astounding . I see people reporting bugs from back in April still and Devs reply they didn't know and will put a team on it now . That tells me it's probably the former choice .

Guppet · February 2015

jeevin wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

yeah the feedback we gave obviously wasn't used

You must have your head in the sand. ESO isn't developed for gamers by gamers or for Elder Scrolls fans. It's managed by suits who don't care about anything but ringing the most $$$$ out of the franchise as they possibly can. Because having lots of $$$$ is so much better than having great entertainment for humankind to enjoy

Why do people act so shocked and bitter at that revelation? It often appears that people think that companies exist for a reason other than profit. Those types of companies do exist, they are called charities. I don't see ZOS listed at the charities commission, so I guessing they are not a charity.

Iago · February 2015

roechacca wrote: »

I'm just saying it like it is . Either ZOS isn't getting reliable feedback or their incompetence is astounding . I see people reporting bugs from back in April still and Devs reply they didn't know and will put a team on it now . That tells me it's probably the former choice .

I agree with you 100 percent what was their new increased community moderation there's no room for criticizing ZOS or its decisions. try to stay is constructively critical as possible and remember big brother is always watching because he likes the forums to be doubleplusgood.

manny254 · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

Its not cool when the perspective is that none of that feedback matter for anything.

Two things here.

1. Because the feed back was created by you does not mean it is good. You are not the only person that plays this game. I am not trying to insult you, but bring you inline with reality. If every single ounce of feedback said by anyone who spoke to the devs or posted on the forums the game would be unplayable.

2. Even if they do decide to use your feedback that does not mean it will or can be implemented instantly.

Roechacca · February 2015

Iago wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I'm just saying it like it is . Either ZOS isn't getting reliable feedback or their incompetence is astounding . I see people reporting bugs from back in April still and Devs reply they didn't know and will put a team on it now . That tells me it's probably the former choice .

I agree with you 100 percent what was their new increased community moderation there's no room for criticizing ZOS or its decisions. try to stay is constructively critical as possible and remember big brother is always watching because he likes the forums to be doubleplusgood.

They can moderate till the cows come home . That's still not going to fix a communication issue . In other games to eliminate Guilds from being able to give all the feedback , some MMOs had elected players from the community do it . People in the game community know who the top dog players are in different fields . It gave really good communication about the game . Players could email their player reps with concerns and feedback . The Reps would then take this to the Game Leads during scheduled meetings .

Iago · February 2015

roechacca wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I'm just saying it like it is . Either ZOS isn't getting reliable feedback or their incompetence is astounding . I see people reporting bugs from back in April still and Devs reply they didn't know and will put a team on it now . That tells me it's probably the former choice .

I agree with you 100 percent what was their new increased community moderation there's no room for criticizing ZOS or its decisions. try to stay is constructively critical as possible and remember big brother is always watching because he likes the forums to be doubleplusgood.

They can moderate till the cows come home . That's still not going to fix a communication issue . In other games to eliminate Guilds from being able to give all the feedback , some MMOs had elected players from the community do it . People in the game community know who the top dog players are in different fields . It gave really good communication about the game . Players could email their player reps with concerns and feedback . The Reps would then take this to the Game Leads during scheduled meetings .

I agree with you 100 percent but with the currently red state of eso it is best to speak softly else you're liable to get hit for the very powerful nerf stick.

jeevin · February 2015

Guppet wrote: »

jeevin wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

yeah the feedback we gave obviously wasn't used

You must have your head in the sand. ESO isn't developed for gamers by gamers or for Elder Scrolls fans. It's managed by suits who don't care about anything but ringing the most $$$$ out of the franchise as they possibly can. Because having lots of $$$$ is so much better than having great entertainment for humankind to enjoy

Why do people act so shocked and bitter at that revelation? It often appears that people think that companies exist for a reason other than profit. Those types of companies do exist, they are called charities. I don't see ZOS listed at the charities commission, so I guessing they are not a charity.

It's not a shocking revelation at all. It's just big business. You're right though it does make me somewhat bitter when I think of how much better the world would be if money didn't come before integrity, quality and personality.

We're not talking a profitable and well managed business where everyone's a winner. It's corporate greed that ruins things for everyone.

Joejudas · February 2015

manny254 wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

Its not cool when the perspective is that none of that feedback matter for anything.

Two things here.

1. Because the feed back was created by you does not mean it is good. You are not the only person that plays this game. I am not trying to insult you, but bring you inline with reality. If every single ounce of feedback said by anyone who spoke to the devs or posted on the forums the game would be unplayable.

2. Even if they do decide to use your feedback that does not mean it will or can be implemented instantly.

yeah i realize that. We echoed alot of the concerns of the community at large though..as we are part of the community. it seems we were largely ignored

Roechacca · February 2015

Iago wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I'm just saying it like it is . Either ZOS isn't getting reliable feedback or their incompetence is astounding . I see people reporting bugs from back in April still and Devs reply they didn't know and will put a team on it now . That tells me it's probably the former choice .

I agree with you 100 percent what was their new increased community moderation there's no room for criticizing ZOS or its decisions. try to stay is constructively critical as possible and remember big brother is always watching because he likes the forums to be doubleplusgood.

They can moderate till the cows come home . That's still not going to fix a communication issue . In other games to eliminate Guilds from being able to give all the feedback , some MMOs had elected players from the community do it . People in the game community know who the top dog players are in different fields . It gave really good communication about the game . Players could email their player reps with concerns and feedback . The Reps would then take this to the Game Leads during scheduled meetings .

I agree with you 100 percent but with the currently red state of eso it is best to speak softly else you're liable to get hit for the very powerful nerf stick.

I've read the community rules 3 times over and none of this criticism is listed as unacceptable behavior . We're allowed to criticize the game as long as we remain constructive . I've been constructive and provided possible solutions that could help with the issue . So let's not derail the subject by worrying about off topic issues . Let's try to find out what can be done to give ZOS every tool so they can patch up this ship full of leaks instead .

Roechacca · February 2015

And if this is a business and making money is the number goal for ZOS , I'd advise them to think like a business person . Imagine if the same issues where coming back up time and time again . More and more money is going out to fix the project but people are still leaving . Then imagine if Donald Trump was your Boss . If this was my business , I'd be hiring play testers . Professional ones with lots of experience to get my feedback . I'd put everyone in every department under the microscope to see where I could do better . Then with no personal feelings involved , I would replace any part of the company machine that wasn't effective .

manny254 · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

Its not cool when the perspective is that none of that feedback matter for anything.

Two things here.

1. Because the feed back was created by you does not mean it is good. You are not the only person that plays this game. I am not trying to insult you, but bring you inline with reality. If every single ounce of feedback said by anyone who spoke to the devs or posted on the forums the game would be unplayable.

2. Even if they do decide to use your feedback that does not mean it will or can be implemented instantly.

yeah i realize that. We echoed alot of the concerns of the community at large though..as we are part of the community. it seems we were largely ignored

That does not mean it was ignored. The whole situation is more complicated the just hitting a magic button and causing something to happen. Even if the devs do something it takes time for them to actually put something in the game. Not to mention debating pros, cons, and overall balance. Then they have to test things and see how they fare or if they caused unintended side effects.

The very fact that you had a guild meeting with them means they are not ignoring you. If Gina or Jessica is going through the trouble of talking to you then I am sure they will give that feedback to someone.

Islyn · February 2015

jeevin wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I'd like to know what guilds are considered as a credible source of feedback and why ? Everything's been broken since Beta . Maybe try another source .

Maybe Zos should stop listening to these "elite" guild people and start listening to the mass exodus that left not long after launch.

Why? THEY are already gone.

;-/

Guppet · February 2015

roechacca wrote: »

And if this is a business and making money is the number goal for ZOS , I'd advise them to think like a business person . Imagine if the same issues where coming back up time and time again . More and more money is going out to fix the project but people are still leaving . Then imagine if Donald Trump was your Boss . If this was my business , I'd be hiring play testers . Professional ones with lots of experience to get my feedback . I'd put everyone in every department under the microscope to see where I could do better . Then with no personal feelings involved , I would replace any part of the company machine that wasn't effective .

ZOS is a well ran business. It's only ESO that is not doing as well as they may have liked and that's assuming that they never planned to go BTP. They have changed staff multiple times, so they are trying to fix things. The number one priority is getting the console release in order, not fixing issues for the already milked PC crowd. I know it's not nice thinking your part of a crowd that they are ignoring, but the reality is that is the case and taking it personally get you to come across like the op.

Just to sum up the op, he comes here asking why things have not been changed after his guild requested changes. The op had vastly more lol's than anything else on the old forums, perhaps even the Devs know that the vast majority that come across him, disagree with him, most of the time.

Getting that well known for people disagreeing with you, is not going to help you when you tell people thier house is on fire.

Vis · February 2015

Do I get a little sour when I hear zos is meeting with guild officers? To an extent...

Ultimately though I am more happy that they are at least gesturing that they care. Many other MMOs do not listen and don't even to make the effort to listen. Even today @ZOS_GinaBruno posted twice in the forums that she is keeping an eye on the sorc masses and our complaints in the forums. That was uber reassuring!

The idea of using random players sounds nice at first, but in practice it is a flop. Take the "player council" in Lotro for example. All it did from its inception was to foment bitter feelings, elevate some amazing idiots, deepen a divided and self-interested community, and cause players selected to quit from harassment. Believe me, it was not pretty.

So is ZOS good at listening? Heck no! Does ZOS try to listen, no doubt about it. The effort alone is sufficient for me, for now.

Joejudas · February 2015

Guppet wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

And if this is a business and making money is the number goal for ZOS , I'd advise them to think like a business person . Imagine if the same issues where coming back up time and time again . More and more money is going out to fix the project but people are still leaving . Then imagine if Donald Trump was your Boss . If this was my business , I'd be hiring play testers . Professional ones with lots of experience to get my feedback . I'd put everyone in every department under the microscope to see where I could do better . Then with no personal feelings involved , I would replace any part of the company machine that wasn't effective .

ZOS is a well ran business. It's only ESO that is not doing as well as they may have liked and that's assuming that they never planned to go BTP. They have changed staff multiple times, so they are trying to fix things. The number one priority is getting the console release in order, not fixing issues for the already milked PC crowd. I know it's not nice thinking your part of a crowd that they are ignoring, but the reality is that is the case and taking it personally get you to come across like the op.

Just to sum up the op, he comes here asking why things have not been changed after his guild requested changes. The op had vastly more lol's than anything else on the old forums, perhaps even the Devs know that the vast majority that come across him, disagree with him, most of the time.

Getting that well known for people disagreeing with you, is not going to help you when you tell people thier house is on fire.

so i posted this because we arent the only guild who was completely ignored. they are completely ignoring a large part of the community. you think the majority of the community support those sorc nerfs ?

seanvwolf · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I'd like to know what guilds are considered as a credible source of feedback and why ? Everything's been broken since Beta . Maybe try another source .

Well we know from a long time ago ZOS are in bed with Entropy Rising, ZOS was in their vent/ts channel way back in May/June IIRC. Also, from comments made by one or two 'green's round here it's likely ZOS also talk to Hodor and a couple of others.

The common factor is the guilds we know or suspect ZOS are talking to are elite end-game guilds, so in taking their views ZOS pretty much put Dracula in charge of the blood bank, to use a poor metaphor.

No idea where they get their PVP views from but if last week's 'live' is a reliable indicator 1.6 is more or less entirely focused on PVP and PVE is 'collateral damage', so not sure how much of ZOS elite friends' views will matter anyway.

Why talk to elite end-game guilds?

1) They are organized and can give a unified impression of the game state.
2) They can give the largest field impression of classes.
3) They spend the most time playing the content that the game provides.
4) They have their own communities outside the game that can draw other players in.
5) They play other games that are siblings to ESO and can get feedback on how competitive ZOS' game state is.
6) They are more apt to have already compiled their feedback as the game progressed.

End-game guilds have always been a source for feedback. Even before open Beta, they invited these large guilds to preview the game and give their feedback. ZOS likely did this to spread the word and increase numbers. But it is also because end-game guilds are the most active organized players in Trials and PvP. I'm sure there are ZOS employees who go under the radar and join guilds undercover to listen in on guild chat to get a more honest opinion of the game and hear about feedback on various class builds, but for something formalized (like a summit), inviting guild leadership just makes sense.