Why Champion System will Kill the game if it's implemented as is

Valencer · February 2015

Spottswoode wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

The 55% health increase was an extrapolation done by @Spottswoode based on data I provided earlier in the discussion.

He calculated the first 12 points into the warrior group of constellations gave a 3.7% increase in health. The next 12 points about half of that.

For the sake of extrapolation and discussion, he made the assumption that the "The Warrior" was a perk that could possibly have 14 other equivalent perks giving an equal health increase, each with their own diminishing return calculations. 15 perks that would each give a 3.7% health increase for the initial 12 points invested into them (hence, 15*12 = 180 CP and 15*3.7 =~ 55.5% ).

That much is right. I have played the test server though. That post was part of a much larger one I trimmed down to the patchwork it is now. Not my best work, I must admit. "Perks" was originally referring to the points on the constellations. I had referred to the Oblivion and Skyrim models (which were part of the much larger original post) which used perks as a progression mechanism.

wrote:

It'll never become bigger than an overall 7.4% health increase. More interesting is the fact that the initial 12 points already provide more than half of the maximum health increase that could possibly be achieved.

Now, this is assuming every 12 points the health increase is cut in half. Given my initial data, this isn't entirely the sweet spot, so it might be different. What we do know is it won't ever go near 55%. Not even close.

Ehh..more or less. I had been up about 22 hours straight when I posted that. So, needless to say my coherence was questionable at best. But yes, massive increases are going to be nigh impossible. There will be substantial increases of around 10 - 12% that will be possible.

Hey, it's cool.

Was just clarifying because I saw some people in this thread spread around the 55% value, which wasn't even close to realistic. (No need to spread fear around

)

Arcane Well doesn't seem that bad to me. It gives back between 1.2k and 1.6k magicka (rough estimate, depending on how many points you invest into The Apprentice). Meanwhile magicka builds will probably run around with 20k+ magicka.

More importantly, it's a 20% chance upon killing the enemy to spawn the pool. It has to be *your* kill. Meanwhile, the pool can be inaccesible if the mob's corpse is in a deadly AoE. And a light armour caster may not want to get close to the killed mob's friends.

It'll be a fun passive, to be sure. But I think it's mostly going to be a cool little thing to slightly help out your melee group members who are in the middle of the fray.

nimander99 · February 2015

Maybe I am missing something, and I brought this up in guild chat to understand and still didn't totally understand the discontent. But, why should people who invest more time in something not be more powerful? There is no level playing field in life why should there be one in an MMORPG?

I am not saying this to be rude or start any problems at all.

I genuinely do not understand why people think it is a bad thing that people who dedicate more time to something are more powerful? Please edify me.

DanielMaxwell · February 2015

nimander99 wrote: »

Maybe I am missing something, and I brought this up in guild chat to understand and still didn't totally understand the discontent. But, why should people who invest more time in something not be more powerful? There is no level playing field in life why should there be one in an MMORPG?

I am not saying this to be rude or start any problems at all.

I genuinely do not understand why people think it is a bad thing that people who dedicate more time to something are more powerful? Please edify me.

the problem is not with players being stronger due putting more time into character progression , the problem is with the size of the power gap between the players and amount of time required to close that gap so that players remain competitive with each other in the game whether they play PvP , PVE , or both .

The current progression rate (on PTS) is to slow in the champion system , meaning that players who will put in 5 plus hours a day will gain a significant advantage over players who only have 2 hours ,or less, to use for playing the game . The rate of progression also can be perceived by some new players as a disincentive to even try the game .

This statement by you(quoted below) does not take into account that even in real life there is an effort made to ensure that games are competitive .

nimander99 wrote: »

I genuinely do not understand why people think it is a bad thing that people who dedicate more time to something are more powerful? Please edify me.

nimander99 · February 2015

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Maybe I am missing something, and I brought this up in guild chat to understand and still didn't totally understand the discontent. But, why should people who invest more time in something not be more powerful? There is no level playing field in life why should there be one in an MMORPG?

I am not saying this to be rude or start any problems at all.

I genuinely do not understand why people think it is a bad thing that people who dedicate more time to something are more powerful? Please edify me.

the problem is not with players being stronger due putting more time into character progression , the problem is with the size of the power gap between the players and amount of time required to close that gap so that players remain competitive with each other in the game whether they play PvP , PVE , or both .

The current progression rate (on PTS) is to slow in the champion system , meaning that players who will put in 5 plus hours a day will gain a significant advantage over players who only have 2 hours ,or less, to use for playing the game . The rate of progression also can be perceived by some new players as a disincentive to even try the game .

This statement by you(quoted below) does not take into account that even in real life there is an effort made to ensure that games are competitive .

nimander99 wrote: »

I genuinely do not understand why people think it is a bad thing that people who dedicate more time to something are more powerful? Please edify me.

Thank you for the response!

I get it, we are talking only in pvp, when I go up against you in Cyrodil and you have 2000 points in champ and I have 500 your passives are going to make you way more powerful and give you that 'edge'. (And the only way to gain champ points is long hours of play as I understand it)

So, hmmmm I understand how this can be a concern and can only hope there is a solution. Like any multiplayer first person shooter everyone starts on a level playing field in a zone for pure competition, but that's leaving out the fact that faction based play in Cyrodil means there will always be more people on from one faction than another which wouldn't be fair either...

DanielMaxwell · February 2015

nimander99 wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Maybe I am missing something, and I brought this up in guild chat to understand and still didn't totally understand the discontent. But, why should people who invest more time in something not be more powerful? There is no level playing field in life why should there be one in an MMORPG?

I am not saying this to be rude or start any problems at all.

I genuinely do not understand why people think it is a bad thing that people who dedicate more time to something are more powerful? Please edify me.

the problem is not with players being stronger due putting more time into character progression , the problem is with the size of the power gap between the players and amount of time required to close that gap so that players remain competitive with each other in the game whether they play PvP , PVE , or both .

The current progression rate (on PTS) is to slow in the champion system , meaning that players who will put in 5 plus hours a day will gain a significant advantage over players who only have 2 hours ,or less, to use for playing the game . The rate of progression also can be perceived by some new players as a disincentive to even try the game .

This statement by you(quoted below) does not take into account that even in real life there is an effort made to ensure that games are competitive .

nimander99 wrote: »

I genuinely do not understand why people think it is a bad thing that people who dedicate more time to something are more powerful? Please edify me.

Thank you for the response!

I get it, we are talking only in pvp, when I go up against you in Cyrodil and you have 2000 points in champ and I have 500 your passives are going to make you way more powerful and give you that 'edge'. (And the only way to gain champ points is long hours of play as I understand it)

So, hmmmm I understand how this can be a concern and can only hope there is a solution. Like any multiplayer first person shooter everyone starts on a level playing field in a zone for pure competition, but that's leaving out the fact that faction based play in Cyrodil means there will always be more people on from one faction than another which wouldn't be fair either...

on the PvP side , each battle ground has a cap for each faction . not that it helps if you play on an opposing factions buff server . The cap is supposed to allow each faction to have relatively equal numbers in the battle ground , but since the caps are a fixed number and not a floating cap it is not unusual for one or even two factions to end up out numbered by the opposing faction(s) .

Floating caps can be problematic to use and do create headaches for the developers and community.

Rev Rielle · February 2015

*sighs*
Anyone that uses the word 'grind' when talking about the champion system has missed the point of it, completely. Unfortunately the OP is one of these people.

Why don't you people ever listen to what development has actually said about the system rather than making up your own inaccurate slant on it then complaining?

The misinformation that gets thrown around on these forums is possibly the worst I've encountered for any MMO. Sometime I wish there was a forum policy for people that perpetuate lies where they would be banned for a couple of days. Honestly, wonders never cease...

TehMagnus · February 2015

nimander99 wrote: »

Maybe I am missing something, and I brought this up in guild chat to understand and still didn't totally understand the discontent. But, why should people who invest more time in something not be more powerful? There is no level playing field in life why should there be one in an MMORPG?

I am not saying this to be rude or start any problems at all.

I genuinely do not understand why people think it is a bad thing that people who dedicate more time to something are more powerful? Please edify me.

It is totally normal, but, when the gap of power is too intense you get the old MMO syndrome when you don't do anything but loose players because older players are imba and new players can't compete on PVP or PVE field. This is normal for a 5-10y Old MMO, shouldn't happen in a 1y old one.

TehMagnus · February 2015

Rev Rielle wrote: »

*sighs*
Anyone that uses the word 'grind' when talking about the champion system has missed the point of it, completely. Unfortunately the OP is one of these people.

Why don't you people ever listen to what development has actually said about the system rather than making up your own inaccurate slant on it then complaining?

The misinformation that gets thrown around on these forums is possibly the worst I've encountered for any MMO. Sometime I wish there was a forum policy for people that perpetuate lies where they would be banned for a couple of days. Honestly, wonders never cease...

If you think we won't grind it, you and anyone who thinks it are delusional.

DanielMaxwell · February 2015

Rev Rielle wrote: »

*sighs*
Anyone that uses the word 'grind' when talking about the champion system has missed the point of it, completely. Unfortunately the OP is one of these people.

Why don't you people ever listen to what development has actually said about the system rather than making up your own inaccurate slant on it then complaining?

The misinformation that gets thrown around on these forums is possibly the worst I've encountered for any MMO. Sometime I wish there was a forum policy for people that perpetuate lies where they would be banned for a couple of days. Honestly, wonders never cease...

The Champion system is just as much a grind (perhaps an even bigger one) as the existing Veteran Ranks system . The only real question is how much of a grind does each individual player perceive it to be .

Razzak · February 2015

Rev Rielle wrote: »

*sighs*
Anyone that uses the word 'grind' when talking about the champion system has missed the point of it, completely. Unfortunately the OP is one of these people.

Why don't you people ever listen to what development has actually said about the system rather than making up your own inaccurate slant on it then complaining?

The misinformation that gets thrown around on these forums is possibly the worst I've encountered for any MMO. Sometime I wish there was a forum policy for people that perpetuate lies where they would be banned for a couple of days. Honestly, wonders never cease...

What is the point of CP, or how can you acquire CPs if not by grind, in your opinion?

The sad part is that you re correct. There is no official involvement in such discussions. But you fail to miss the big picture. There is no official help or even a desire to help us understand CP better. Have you seen any official comments in such threads? Have you seen anyone from ZOS commenting on anything that was said about CP?
Instead of wishing for a policing forum, why don't you make a wish for a forum where official comments and discussions are those that run the flow of debates.

Soulshine · February 2015

Razzak wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

*sighs*
Anyone that uses the word 'grind' when talking about the champion system has missed the point of it, completely. Unfortunately the OP is one of these people.

Why don't you people ever listen to what development has actually said about the system rather than making up your own inaccurate slant on it then complaining?

The misinformation that gets thrown around on these forums is possibly the worst I've encountered for any MMO. Sometime I wish there was a forum policy for people that perpetuate lies where they would be banned for a couple of days. Honestly, wonders never cease...

What is the point of CP, or how can you acquire CPs if not by grind, in your opinion?

The sad part is that you re correct. There is no official involvement in such discussions. But you fail to miss the big picture. There is no official help or even a desire to help us understand CP better. Have you seen any official comments in such threads? Have you seen anyone from ZOS commenting on anything that was said about CP?
Instead of wishing for a policing forum, why don't you make a wish for a forum where official comments and discussions are those that run the flow of debates.

Well, please bear in mind there actually are some comments on the PTS forums where feedback was solicited... but it would be nice to see some replies in this section. The obvious issue is that given the tone of many of these threads, it would not be particularly productive for them to enter the debate withough having a definitive answer on some of the questions posed, and as we know from prior experience that is something they seldom provide unfortunately.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · February 2015

I disagree, there will be a large gap in the first few hundred, but after that between diminishing returns and half the skills not contributing to your build the gap will become less and less for the players who double that. for example
someone with 300 will have and unbelievable advantage against someone with 10. but i really dont think someone with 500 is going to have a giant advantage over someone with 300, at 300 you hit severe diminishing returns on all the things your build needs most, and start investing in % based increases on things that are not essential for your particular build.

on top of that if someone only plays casual a few times a week its possible they will always have enlightenment with 4x boost. so someone who playes twice as much will not be light-years ahead because the majority of their play they will earn 1/4 the amount of exp.

its not as dire as you suggest by a long shot. the 120 point bonuses are nice looking but they will not = you beat someone without them hands down. just like v14 dosent guarantee you have any competence or skill at all because the solo content is sooo easy.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · February 2015

[/quote]

I meant gear is meaningless in the current system, I don't know about the new one but seeing how they nerfed the armor sets, i think the real difference will be with the CP points attribution and armor (which will be very important at first seeing how chars will be weak) won't really make a difference either on the long run [/quote]

If you think gear is meaningless in the new system you obviously have not done any testing or have any clue what is going on. They reduced the effectiveness of jewel enchants and immensely improved some of the bonuses you get on gear(aside from crit nerf). Gear choice is more important than it has ever been by a long shot.

TehMagnus · February 2015

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

If you think gear is meaningless in the new system you obviously have not done any testing or have any clue what is going on. They reduced the effectiveness of jewel enchants and immensely improved some of the bonuses you get on gear(aside from crit nerf). Gear choice is more important than it has ever been by a long shot.

At the point I had said "I don't know about the new one", it has changed now. And I was actually right.

It's true that gear in new system will be useful especially, as I also said, at start ("which will be very important at first seeing how chars will be weak") but as far as I've seen, crafted/cyrodill/droped gear from dungeons is working pretty well and you got a great deal of different combinations. As for CPs, they are equally if not more important.

Currently with unoptimized gear and 140CP I'm pulling 2k less DPS than people who have optimized gear and 2-3k more DPS than people who have 70CP.

Is gear more important than it has ever been? mm no, at least not in PVE. Currently, everything evolves around quick ult regen and reaching the softcaps with the best combinations. With the 30CP passive +10% base crit, stacking crit is not a main issue anymore and softcaps have been removed so now "gearing up" is all about about the best combination to have the highest amount of dmg & stam or magicka, which is easier to get seeing the huge amount of different item sets the game has to offer. Even if you don't have the FOTM build you can still get pretty good results and finish the trials including SO (provided you have a team of good players who know & can apply tactics, which is harder than anything else

).

It will be just like when Craglorn was released. At first people will do trials by using the same kind of tactics we used at first and after 6 months, people will be stacking & pew pewing. The difference is that the new player who reaches level cap at that point won't be stopped by gear or skill from partaking in "top tier" end game, he'll be stopped by CP aka time.

Joejudas · February 2015

This is Q&A from Paul Sage two days ago. To me...and maybe its just me...but this absolutely screams exp boosters coming to the cash shop. If that happens....well....i mean yeah......
Q: There are a number of potentially controversial possibilities for cash-shop purchases including forward camps, Nirncrux, crafting motifs, or upgrade materials. What are some of the main concerns and internal rules that you will consider when choosing what types of items will or will not be allowed in the shop?
Paul Sage : "Obviously, we want to offer items people want and that there is a demand for. What we don’t want to do is only offer the best items – items which grant players clear numerical advantages over other players – on our store. **When we talk about convenience items, what we generally mean is items which allow people to reduce the time it might take to acquire something they want**. I think cosmetic items speak for themselves. We know there is a fine line, but there is also a line where we feel like if you buy something from the store it should have value."

Soulshine · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

This is Q&A from Paul Sage two days ago. To me...and maybe its just me...but this absolutely screams exp boosters coming to the cash shop. If that happens....well....i mean yeah......
Q: There are a number of potentially controversial possibilities for cash-shop purchases including forward camps, Nirncrux, crafting motifs, or upgrade materials. What are some of the main concerns and internal rules that you will consider when choosing what types of items will or will not be allowed in the shop?
Paul Sage : "Obviously, we want to offer items people want and that there is a demand for. What we don’t want to do is only offer the best items – items which grant players clear numerical advantages over other players – on our store. **When we talk about convenience items, what we generally mean is items which allow people to reduce the time it might take to acquire something they want**. I think cosmetic items speak for themselves. We know there is a fine line, but there is also a line where we feel like if you buy something from the store it should have value."

Make the game about waiting, then sell a boost in the cash shop so they don't have to wait.

Lots of MMOs do this, so we are not going to be an exception to that.... unfortunately. You are suprised?

Joejudas · February 2015

no but this is something else that is like " hey long time paying customers since launch....here is some more stuff to laugh in your face with.

Elsonso · February 2015

What do you expect?

This is one of the target markets. People who have limited time to play, but want to be competitive.

Joejudas · February 2015

lordrichter wrote: »

What do you expect?

This is one of the target markets. People who have limited time to play, but want to be competitive.

you really think zeni just wrote us off ?

Elsonso · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

What do you expect?

This is one of the target markets. People who have limited time to play, but want to be competitive.

you really think zeni just wrote us off ?

Paul Sage, as quoted above, "Obviously, we want to offer items people want and that there is a demand for. What we don’t want to do is only offer the best items – items which grant players clear numerical advantages over other players – on our store. When we talk about convenience items, what we generally mean is items which allow people to reduce the time it might take to acquire something they want. I think cosmetic items speak for themselves. We know there is a fine line, but there is also a line where we feel like if you buy something from the store it should have value."

This speaks to one of the target markets. You should not be surprised by any additions to the Crown Store that are centered around conveniences for the Homework Dad. This is a (one) target market for the game. Looking back, I see signs that it has been for a while.

idk · February 2015

I do find it humorous how many posts have been made during the past year predicting gloom and doom in a manner no one else other than the OP could make.

All I can recall have an OP extremely long winded like this thread. So long winded, not worth read.

Jando · February 2015

I've been posting since Day 1 of the PTS that:

1. Champion System will be a horrible grind. Worse than Vet Ranks.

2. Too much XP for each CP.

3. Each CP is meaningless - so they need to drastically reduce total number of CP's to combat the current problem of dilution.

4. Never ending progression systems are inherently flawed because they cannot offer a feeling of progression without leaving people behind, never to catch up

5. Characters that have completed most of the quest content are at a serious disadvantage because they will not have available content to get big chunks of XP.

6. The Champion system could actually be amazing if they tuned the progression right.

7. The UI for Champion system is fantastic. Well done to the UI/design Team.

8. There is nothing wrong with making the Champion progression end in a relatively short amount of time - which would actually make it exciting.

9. There's no reason that you shouldn't be able to "get all of the points/perks"

10. The Champion system has so much potential, but the system designers, after all of this time, managed to completely strip the fun out of it.

11. The business of an MMO should be based on providing a stream of great content at a reasonable price.....not an endless, and painful grind that people will pay to be put out of their misery.

TehMagnus · February 2015

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I do find it humorous how many posts have been made during the past year predicting gloom and doom in a manner no one else other than the OP could make.

All I can recall have an OP extremely long winded like this thread. So long winded, not worth read.

And the predictions where correct, unless you're blind to the truth

.

- Game was a failure. Successful games don't change their business model,especially not after 1 year and especially not when it's a sub model since successful + sub = big bucks (just look at WOW

).

- We where paying to beta test for consoles, I mean, how much content was made with our money? Imperial City? New Solo Area? What else is ready but will not come to us until October at the very least in favor of console players (and in exchange for more money DLC or sub, even though we actually paid the devs while they where creating the content).

- Game went B2P which, considering the whole sales where you can get the game for 10 bucks is much like F2P. Add to that the fact you can pay real money to (and I'm using the dev words here) cut time, it's basically Pay2Win (no matter what marketing people want to make it look like or how much they say it's not P2W, a bit like when they said they'd rather shut down the servers before changing the subscription model), since it takes time to get potions, it also takes time to craft armor or get legendary tempers, or get trials armor, so how long till we can cut time and buy those too with crowns?

People where right about that, and they are right about this. Champion System as is, will kill the game. I personally already found ways to farm it on PTS, so I guess I'll have my fun while the game sinks and will be one of the reasons people just quit when they realize they can't catch up, unless ZOS reconsiders and turns CS into a good system.

Oughash · February 2015

geoffreyb14_ESO wrote: »

I've been posting since Day 1 of the PTS that:

1. Champion System will be a horrible grind. Worse than Vet Ranks.

2. Too much XP for each CP.

3. Each CP is meaningless - so they need to drastically reduce total number of CP's to combat the current problem of dilution.

4. Never ending progression systems are inherently flawed because they cannot offer a feeling of progression without leaving people behind, never to catch up

5. Characters that have completed most of the quest content are at a serious disadvantage because they will not have available content to get big chunks of XP.

6. The Champion system could actually be amazing if they tuned the progression right.

7. The UI for Champion system is fantastic. Well done to the UI/design Team.

8. There is nothing wrong with making the Champion progression end in a relatively short amount of time - which would actually make it exciting.

9. There's no reason that you shouldn't be able to "get all of the points/perks"

10. The Champion system has so much potential, but the system designers, after all of this time, managed to completely strip the fun out of it.

11. The business of an MMO should be based on providing a stream of great content at a reasonable price.....not an endless, and painful grind that people will pay to be put out of their misery.

Agreed 100%. The Champion Constellations are beautiful to look at and interact with. The system, as implemented, is a horrible, horrible grind. Don't fool yourself thinking that people "won't grind it." They will, and for top-end PvE content and competitive PvP teams it will be required.

It needs to be redesigned so that player choice is meaningful. It shouldn't be possible to max it out completely. For example, only allow players to choose one path form each of Warrior/Thief/Mage. Then limit the total number of CPs so that each point has a meaningful effect on the players build. Much like a talent tree. Then allow the player to respec cheaply.

TehMagnus wrote: »

People where right about that, and they are right about this. Champion System as is, will kill the game. I personally already found ways to farm it on PTS, so I guess I'll have my fun while the game sinks and will be one of the reasons people just quit when they realize they can't catch up, unless ZOS reconsiders and turns CS into a good system.

Agree with this assessment. To ZoS: think 1 yr down the road when a new player wants to enter the game. How many hundreds of CPs behind will he/she be? How much effective power is that in comparison? 5%? 10%? 25%? Unless that new player grinds his/her face off, there will be no catching up.

Berinima · February 2015

...and so much for there won't be that much of a difference to new players:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151129/1-6-how-does-3600-cp-feel
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151187/70-cp-vs-3-6k-cp
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151166/dsa-vet-solo-with-3800cp-nb

TehMagnus · February 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

People where right about that, and they are right about this. Champion System as is, will kill the game. I personally already found ways to farm it on PTS, so I guess I'll have my fun while the game sinks and will be one of the reasons people just quit when they realize they can't catch up, unless ZOS reconsiders and turns CS into a good system.

Agree with this assessment. To ZoS: think 1 yr down the road when a new player wants to enter the game. How many hundreds of CPs behind will he/she be? How much effective power is that in comparison? 5%? 10%? 25%? Unless that new player grinds his/her face off, there will be no catching up.

Black desert will be out by then, so only people still playing will be the "immersion" fans on console since no MMO player will stand playing with the game's UI on console.

Berinima · February 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Agree with this assessment. To ZoS: think 1 yr down the road when a new player wants to enter the game. How many hundreds of CPs behind will he/she be? How much effective power is that in comparison? 5%? 10%? 25%? Unless that new player grinds his/her face off, there will be no catching up.

Even with grinding his/her face off there is no catching up. I know, I know... Diminishing returns! But people also like to forget the psychological wall a system like that puts into place. Once you figure out that you are 500 points behind and you do the math how much work that means to even TRY to catch up you probably just deinstall the game instead. Especially BECAUSE it is B2P. You just move on. I mean maybe not everybody does that but enough will.

Elsonso · February 2015

Berinima wrote: »

...and so much for there won't be that much of a difference to new players:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151129/1-6-how-does-3600-cp-feel
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151187/70-cp-vs-3-6k-cp
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151166/dsa-vet-solo-with-3800cp-nb

By the time the game gets to this point, new players will either get a free CP boost or they will be available in the store for purchase.

They know that the system will favor older players over newer ones. This is not lost on them. That they don't seem concerned speaks volumes.

EDIT...at a minimum they need to remove the stat boosts for the three primary stats. They will never do this.

Berinima · February 2015

lordrichter wrote: »

By the time the game gets to this point, new players will either get a free CP boost or they will be available in the store for purchase.

True, if ZOS leaves the system as it is TODAY they have to fix their mess TOMORROW. But either way... If they put a CP boost in the store, that's not even borderline pay2win anymore. That is exactly pay2win. And if they provide a free CP boost to new players... Do you think veteran players that grinded their balls off would like that? Remember the outcry here on the forums of people complaining about the fact that everybody is treated EQUALLY? That everybody - no matter how many chars he or she has grinded to VR 14 - will get the exact SAME AMOUNT of champion points? Do you think these players would like to see their advantage over new players diminish by a neccessary action from ZOS? I highly doubt so.

Soulshine · February 2015

lordrichter wrote: »

Berinima wrote: »

...and so much for there won't be that much of a difference to new players:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151129/1-6-how-does-3600-cp-feel
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151187/70-cp-vs-3-6k-cp
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151166/dsa-vet-solo-with-3800cp-nb

By the time the game gets to this point, new players will either get a free CP boost or they will be available in the store for purchase.

They know that the system will favor older players over newer ones. This is not lost on them. That they don't seem concerned speaks volumes.

Well, I have been pointing this out for a while now and ZoS are clearly not the only ones that don't seem concerned since many appear only interested in how it affects them rather than new player accounts and the game as a whole over time.

I said many months ago that the CP system was going to just be VR with another name, that it would be a massive grind, and that it was going to create an even worse problem. Those posts got a lot of the usual LoLs of disagreement from people as replies. Those same people are now bitching about having to grind the points, talking about power differences, and not liking what they see on PTS. Big surpise.

All MMOs have power differences between old and new players but those are usually demarkated by level differences - this system here however is aiming to keep players with the same levels yet with the option to have massive differences in power over time, a recipe for very bad news to new accounts in the game since the CP allotment is also account wide. Again, you will end up with a player at lvl5 who has 500 CPs vs a totally new account player with no CPs.

Store boosts for cash indeed.