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Magelight / Stealth / Bolt Stun imbalances
olemanwinter
✭✭✭✭✭
Almost any NB you talk to who operates primarily out of stealth is going to have a chip on his or her shoulder in this game due to a fundamental imbalance.
By simply being slotted, the magelight ability passively negates an active ability on the NB bar that only lasts 2.8 seconds and costs a great deal of magica.
And while we've all pretty much gotten used to that, 1.6 changes the magelight morph to include 100% IMMUNITY to stun from stealth attacks. Additionally, the magelight is no longer visible to an attacker.
So, when being approached by someone you have no idea if they will pull you out of stealth at a great distance and when attacking you have no idea if they will be immune to the fundamental advantage of that type of attack.
Now, let's contrast that against Sorc Bolt Escape.
Bolt escape has the potential to stun an unlimited number of targets along it's path. And there is no equivalent of magelight to combat it.
The combination of damage dealing + stun + addons that alert you, means that Sorcs are able to simply bolt at will across an open field where they do not even see anyone to target and simultaneously pull someone out of stealth, damage them, and stun them.
Bolt escape is no longer being used primarily for escape. It's still used for that, but most casts of bolt escape are used simply "en route" traveling from point A to point B.
Now, lets combine the 1.6 magelight with Bolt Escape.
If a NB is somehow able to avoid detection around a Sorcerer and attacks him or her, they are very likely to be immune to the stun. Immediately, they will bolt and stun the attacker. By the time you break the stun, crystal fragments will be inbound and the Sorc will be comfortably protected by some summoned pets.
TLDR: The same Zos logic that apparently wants to make stealth PvP combat nearly impossible would also dictate that Bolt Escape needs a nerf to it's ability to stun.
SOMETHING needs to change in 1.6 for proper balance.
- The flare that causes you to be unable to go back into stealth for (I think) 8 seconds.
- Magelight being invisible to the attacker
- Magelight making you immune to stealth attacks
- Bolt Escape stunning anyone near it's path.
These abilities and game mechanics need to change. Or they need to affect "SNEAKING" players that are crouching and not "INVISIBLE" players that are actively spending magica on the ability.
EDIT: Furthermore, because you must use a stamina based built to achieve the same relative damage in 1.6, a NB operating out of stealth has far less magica on hand to utilize that active "invisibility" ability that currently only works if spammed due to every possible game mechanic(from DOT to pots to magelight to stuck-in-combat-bugs) pulling the NB out of stealth.
ESO is changing to where attacking out of stealth is going to be a DISADVANTAGE.
Edited by olemanwinter on February 7, 2015 11:26PM By simply being slotted, the magelight ability passively negates an active ability on the NB bar that only lasts 2.8 seconds and costs a great deal of magica.
And while we've all pretty much gotten used to that, 1.6 changes the magelight morph to include 100% IMMUNITY to stun from stealth attacks. Additionally, the magelight is no longer visible to an attacker.
So, when being approached by someone you have no idea if they will pull you out of stealth at a great distance and when attacking you have no idea if they will be immune to the fundamental advantage of that type of attack.
Now, let's contrast that against Sorc Bolt Escape.
Bolt escape has the potential to stun an unlimited number of targets along it's path. And there is no equivalent of magelight to combat it.
The combination of damage dealing + stun + addons that alert you, means that Sorcs are able to simply bolt at will across an open field where they do not even see anyone to target and simultaneously pull someone out of stealth, damage them, and stun them.
Bolt escape is no longer being used primarily for escape. It's still used for that, but most casts of bolt escape are used simply "en route" traveling from point A to point B.
Now, lets combine the 1.6 magelight with Bolt Escape.
If a NB is somehow able to avoid detection around a Sorcerer and attacks him or her, they are very likely to be immune to the stun. Immediately, they will bolt and stun the attacker. By the time you break the stun, crystal fragments will be inbound and the Sorc will be comfortably protected by some summoned pets.
TLDR: The same Zos logic that apparently wants to make stealth PvP combat nearly impossible would also dictate that Bolt Escape needs a nerf to it's ability to stun.
SOMETHING needs to change in 1.6 for proper balance.
- The flare that causes you to be unable to go back into stealth for (I think) 8 seconds.
- Magelight being invisible to the attacker
- Magelight making you immune to stealth attacks
- Bolt Escape stunning anyone near it's path.
These abilities and game mechanics need to change. Or they need to affect "SNEAKING" players that are crouching and not "INVISIBLE" players that are actively spending magica on the ability.
EDIT: Furthermore, because you must use a stamina based built to achieve the same relative damage in 1.6, a NB operating out of stealth has far less magica on hand to utilize that active "invisibility" ability that currently only works if spammed due to every possible game mechanic(from DOT to pots to magelight to stuck-in-combat-bugs) pulling the NB out of stealth.
ESO is changing to where attacking out of stealth is going to be a DISADVANTAGE.
16
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dharbert✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Stealth is an ability that every class has, and it doesn't cost anything. Magelight has never been visible to an opposing player.Edited by dharbert on February 6, 2015 9:13PM6 -
olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭Stealth is an ability that every class has, and it doesn't cost anything.
You are confusing "sneak" with "invisibility".
Clearly you have never played a NB or you are simply being purposefully dense.
And clearly, you didn't even read the whole post. But I'll go ahead and waste some time chatting with you anyway.
"Sneak" is a game mechanic that grants "stealth" achieved when crouching outside of the detection radius of another player or NPC.
"Invisibility" is a product of an active ability (or potion). It also grants "Stealth" but it operates INDEPENDENTLY of any detection radius.Magelight has never been visible to an opposing player.
Wrong again. Currenly on live, if a player is running magelight and is NOT in stealth, you can see the animation.Edited by olemanwinter on February 6, 2015 9:24PM5 -
dharbert✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I guess you'd like them to also nerf detect pots and armor sets that allow you to detect stealthed/hidden players as well?3 -
k2blader✭✭✭✭✭Get the F*** off sorc BE "imbalance" and learn to counter.Disabling the grass may improve performance.9
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dharbert✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm sorry that you won't be able to sneak/stabby/stabby/finisher everyone without consequence....6 -
olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭I guess you'd like them to also nerf detect pots and armor sets that allow you to detect stealthed/hidden players as well?
No. Not really.
I think that a detection potion should make someone "SNEAKING" (crouched) and hidden visible to the player using the potion.
However, if a player is using an active ability that costs magica and tooltip says "grants invisibility for 2.9 seconds", I don't think that should be negated by a detection potion.
And furthermore, even if the detect potion does negate the active ability, recasting the ability should then trump the effects of the potion.armor sets that allow you to detect stealthed/hidden players as well?
THANK YOU for bringing that up. Excellent.
-Detection pots simply increase your detection radius.
-Those armor sets simply increase your detection radius.
However, a NB can use his magica and cast the active "cloak" ability within the radius of someone wearing that armor and be invisible to them for 2.9 seconds!
But the same NB can cast the same "cloak" ability within the radius of someone using the detect potion and it's a worthless waste of magica, completely negated.
Thank you, that really just helped prove my point.Edited by olemanwinter on February 6, 2015 9:32PM2 -
olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭I'm sorry that you won't be able to sneak/stabby/stabby/finisher everyone without consequence....
I'm so happy you'll still be able to blindly bolt around a field. Such great talent and execution that takes.
Have fun bolt/bolt/bolt/finisherEdited by olemanwinter on February 6, 2015 9:35PM3 -
dharbert✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭olemanwinter wrote: »
I'm not a Sorcerer, I'm a DK. I'd much rather sit there and block your every attack until you have exhausted all resources, then drop a standard on you or let a swarm of bats chew you to the bone
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olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭Get the F*** off sorc BE "imbalance" and learn to counter.
I assume you also didn't read the entire post.
I'm fine with Sorc BE staying the same IF Stealth mechanics stay the same.
Why don't you go tell everyone who has called for nerfs to stealth mechanics to "learn to counter".
My argument is simple: IF you believe these conditions working against stealth are necessary THEN bolt escape is imbalanced.
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Athas24✭✭✭✭I think they made magelight invisible because people keep QQing about it. It's a light, it should be visible to anyone in my opinion and I run a Sorcerer primarily. BE however is fine. It's not unlimited currently in live for damage only 6 people at max in the path. It was unlimited a while back before they changed it. I think a solid fix to NB would be to increase the length of time stealth lasts for its cost or drastically reduce its cost. This would make invisibility more viable. Also, the stealth option that clears 1 dot should clear all dots for the morph and that would solve that issue as well. 1 -
olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭I'm not a Sorcerer, I'm a DK. I'd much rather sit there and block your every attack until you have exhausted all resources, then drop a standard on you or let a swarm of bats chew you to the bone
That's no difference. Everyone thinks every other play style than their's is illegitmate.
sneak/stabby/stabby/finisher
bolt/bolt/bolt/finisher
impulse/impulse/impulse/batswarm
Or your DK version....
block/block/block/standard.
What's the f#@king difference? There is none.
Edited by olemanwinter on February 6, 2015 9:41PM4 -
olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭I think they made magelight invisible because people keep QQing about it. It's a light, it should be visible to anyone in my opinion and I run a Sorcerer primarily. BE however is fine. It's not unlimited currently in live for damage only 6 people at max in the path. It was unlimited a while back before they changed it. I think a solid fix to NB would be to increase the length of time stealth lasts for its cost or drastically reduce its cost. This would make invisibility more viable. Also, the stealth option that clears 1 dot should clear all dots for the morph and that would solve that issue as well.
Indeed. I'm not really calling for a nerf to bolt escape. I'm simply saying it's a little absurd that Stealth mechanics continue to be nerfed in the face of the existence of BE being used how it is.
It wouldn't take much to please NB stealth users. But unfortunately they are going the opposite direction.
Instead of making any of the changes you wrote about, or others, they have added more skills to pull players out of stealth and skills that make you immune to stuns from stealth.0 -
Spangla✭✭✭✭You are right in everything you say op. Nap's will descend to ensure their class stays stronger than yours and criticise your post.
Dk are the strongest cause they whine the hardest.1 -
olemanwinter wrote: »
Now, let's contrast that against Sorc Bolt Escape.
Bolt escape has the potential to stun an unlimited number of targets along it's path. And there is no equivalent of magelight to combat it.
The combination of damage dealing + stun + addons that alert you, means that Sorcs are able to simply bolt at will across an open field where they do not even see anyone to target and simultaneously pull someone out of stealth, damage them, and stun them.
Bolt escape is no longer being used primarily for escape. It's still used for that, but most casts of bolt escape are used simply "en route" traveling from point A to point B.
actually NO. the caps are removed for the first effect and remain for the second. so, bolt escape can do damage to 6 and reduced damage to more people but can only stun 6 people.
unfortunately this ruins caltrops because its listed as DOT and additionally snare, and snaring 6 with expensive caltrops is a poor choice.
streak is not meat to escape its clearly an offensive mobility move that attacks and cc's, ball lightning is for running away and being defensive.0 -
Yusuf✭✭✭✭✭Actually the detection got removed for inner light so you only have the stealth-attack-immunity morph or the "pve-morph" for increased magicka.
If you're a sole PVP-player i think it is fair to be braced against stealth attacks and sacrifice 5% of your max-magicka.
For the record i play both a Sorc and a NB on v14, so you know i'm not biased here.0 -
MADshadowman✭✭✭✭✭Every AOE attack will pull you out of stealth, not just BE and this absolutely ok.1
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Asgari✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I love how before 1.6 release sorcs were a joke and barely used in PvE and then only used for negates in pvp and now 1.6 is out the ranting and raving won't stop. Oh noes! A weak class got a buff!Formerly @Persian_Princess .. Now @Asgari
Princess Asgari | Sorc
Asgari | NB
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Banner Down!
No Mercy
Youtube: Asgari3 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's awesome how any perceived problem with any class skill somehow leads back to 'nerf bolt escape.'Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭What in the Sam Hill does Bolt Escape have to do w/ Cloak / Detection?
Rhetorical. The answer is nothing.
While I do think it's the lame that the only real defensive move that NBs get is both still broken after a year and countered by anyone running Magelight / Detect pots, this isn't really the right way to bring attention to the fact.
The Bolt Escape change is a good one honestly, and being done mostly to combat the infinite disorient spam.
Sorc BE'd through you while you were sneak sneaking your way to ambush somebody? Happens, get over it.
Not a reason to nerf Sorcs.
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kieso✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have a vr 14 sorc and a vr 14 NB and I never did like how easily it was to counter stealth in this game.1 -
Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They should have used a friendly-proximity calculation for stealth detection, and made invisibility a superior form of crouch (beyond being able to use it after being detected).
The 50 non-NBs sneaking behind 1 visible should be visible at 50 meters... The solo NB using cloak should be almost undetectable to anyone.
I'd be ok with a cost hike in return for reliable stealth.2 -
Spangla✭✭✭✭Princess_Asgari wrote: »I love how before 1.6 release sorcs were a joke and barely used in PvE and then only used for negates in pvp and now 1.6 is out the ranting and raving won't stop. Oh noes! A weak class got a buff!
Except they wernt the weak class were they. ..... unfortunately noobs have cried their way to a buff when actually it's obvious that at the top of pvp sorcs are not weak at all.
Also I believe the melee stam sorc is part of the top trials time in pve?
So.....
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Heishi✭✭✭✭✭I generally agree with you. Bolt Escape can be left alone, I have no complaint there since it's not too difficult to dodge roll.
The way I believe it should work is:
Potion should reveal cloak(invisibility)/potion(invisibility) since you're expending an item to counter an ability or another item.
Cloak/potion should NOT be visible to Magelight.
Magelight SHOULD reveal someone crouched stealthing since it's pretty much a passive ability and a free action (Well, minor stamina drain for people investing point in it).
Given the radius of Magelight, you should be able to see someone who is more than 2.8s away if you're on the watchout, this way you can setup some sort of AoE to hit them and protect yourself. If you didn't see them go into stealth, then it becomes a matter of initiative and who saw who first. Much like if a person sees the NB and attacks first, they lose that stealth bonus.
This wasn't included in the OP but ranged stealth stuff using a bow I'm ok with being knocked down a bit. It offers a significant advantage of being able to hit outside of magelight, or from a higher position where someone wouldn't see them on the ledge, even with magelight.
I also agree magelight definitely should be visible since you know... everyone can have it. IF, Magelight was a SORCERER specific ability I could be okay with it functioning the way it does. Then you could see someone and go "Oh, that's a sorcerer, they will probably be able to detect me, time to use a different strategy" rather than "Oh it's a person, they can probably detect me so I might as well never use stealth/cloak/invisible in PvP again"
I actually avoided PvP almost an entire year until about a week ago. I tried it out, had a pretty decent time. I was using a sorc, not my nb, but this revelation pretty much puts a nail in that coffin since I planned to switch back to my nb after 1.6 when some of the skills become stamina based.And so did many brave men, women, and beast fall to the end of Beta, never to be heard from again. All that is left, is whispers of the adventures they had.1 -
Reilech✭✭✭Magelight is not a sorcerer skill. Why do you want a sorcerer ability to compensate for an all-player skill?
The visibleness of magelight will be a toggle within the video-preferences.
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olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭Magelight is not a sorcerer skill. Why do you want a sorcerer ability to compensate for an all-player skill?
I don't. I making a point about the OVERALL game direction and attitude that is imbalanced given those circumstances.The visibleness of magelight will be a toggle within the video-preferences.
What's your point? Only for yourself. I can't toggle in my preferences to be able to see your magelight. derp.
Edited by olemanwinter on February 7, 2015 11:24PM0 -
olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »streak is not meat to escape its clearly an offensive mobility move that attacks and cc's, ball lightning is for running away and being defensive.
Except you can't target with it. So, that's completely illogical.
You can't target. You can't stop short. You have to go X meters in a specific direction, period. ...It's for travel. It's for escape.
That it stuns enemies along that line of escape is supposed to increase your ability to escape.
I think......the ability has "escape" in the name! LMAO
However, the skill is actually being used in 1 of 3 ways.
1) As a means of constant transportation with a built-in "near" invincibility.
or
2) As a means of CC around the edge of a fight like a herding dog herds cattle.
or
3) In concert with other organized Sorcs taking small areas like inner-keeps through constant and overwhelming CC/stun.
Edited by olemanwinter on February 7, 2015 11:36PM1 -
Panda244✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seems to me like OP is just mad because a sorcerer with Mage Light ruined his day... BE has nothing to do with Stealth or Cloak... Slot immovable if BE bothers you so much. As far as stealth goes, get a bow, and sneak 40m away from everyone like a good little NB, then you won't have to worry about getting detected.
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phtony06b14_ESO✭✭✭I've been spending the better part of my time leveling VR characters so I can get into endgame pvp & be viable for 1.6. The more I hear about 1.6, the less I want to pvp. 1st the CP grind that pvpers have to do & now the very essence of a stealthy NB build being completely gutted...
I have no interest in forming groups for scripted pve endgame raiding. It's the same in every MMO. I watched the streams. Nothing in ESO is any different when it comes to raiding. So pvp is where it's at for me when I get to endgame. I truly hope the game is worth playing then.2 -
Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭olemanwinter wrote: »dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »streak is not meat to escape its clearly an offensive mobility move that attacks and cc's, ball lightning is for running away and being defensive.
Except you can't target with it. So, that's completely illogical.
You can't target. You can't stop short. You have to go X meters in a specific direction, period. ...It's for travel. It's for escape.
That it stuns enemies along that line of escape is supposed to increase your ability to escape.
I think......the ability has "escape" in the name! LMAO
You're aware that Bolt Escape morphs into Streak, right? No more Escape in the name after morphing it.
Moving through enemies instead of away from them helps you escape in what way?
There's plenty of skills in the game that change fundamentally after picking a specific morph. (like Repentance or Absorb Magic)1