Why Champion System will Kill the game if it's implemented as is

Ysne58 · February 2015

I do not see this working without having levels over 50. Whether it's keeping vet levels, changing them to levels 50 through 63, or even 50 through 190 (this one makes more sense to me for some odd reason).

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · February 2015

I dont get the complaints. All the passives are basically garbage. Yes the actual stuff you put points into is ok but you can dump all 24 points you start with (its 23,23,24 if you are maxxed out) in something and its still not all that great. My worry is the difference is so little between the people whove played for years and people who played for days that noone will bother with it.

Alphashado · February 2015

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

I can't confirm for myself because haven't been able to get onto PTS yet due to the launcher erroring out with the "webgetrequest" error nonstop. Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought account-wide CPs were not supposed to become available to your alt characters until you attained VR1 (or level 50 in the future if VR ranks are removed). If that is the case then granting lowbie characters access to them might be a bug. If lowbie characters having access to your accounts CPs is working as designed then I fully agree with you.

I have vr14s on my account that is why my lowbie alts got 70cps. WAI

I have considered this, but it's really no different than someone crafting a full set of purple Seducer gear for their lvl 10 mage.

Take that further please - a level ten in crafted purple gear, and add to it 70CPs then tell me it's the same. NOT even close.

At the end of the day, why does it matter? The point I was making is that right now on 1.5, a vet player can easily make his/her alts godlike in relation to low level zones. So adding a few CP won't matter much because the disparity already exists. I mean, what is your concern exactly that lvl 30 characters will be soloing Dolmen and Public Dungeons? I already do this with my alts.

It matters specifically because of the already present divide and because we were told that the CP system was to be a means by which new players would not be so far divided from vets already in the game. This is not the case. As has already been pointed out by many comments around the boards, it clearly separates them even further than before.

If you have no issues whatever with the overall game presenting this kind of picture to a new player, cool for you. I do not feel the same.

That's all fine. I'm saying the disparity is already there. Do you have any idea how much more powerful a lvl 10 character is when he is wearing a full set of purple/gold set bonus gear? It's kinda ridiculous actually. What you are saying is nothing new. If you are that upset about it, then you might as well create a thread asking ZoS to prevent people from gearing their lowbies in uber powerful godlike gear sets. It's nothing new is the point I am making. I do it myself to help me level my alts faster.

the difference in gear can be made up if the new player is able to get the same quality gear from a veteran player(you know make some friends or already know a veteran player) , the difference in character power that comes from CP's can not be made up , it will be there until the new player maxes out the champion system .

Ok and....

I mean what is it exactly that you are suggesting? That a new player on his level 20 sorc is gonna see another sorc come along killing things faster, and rage/quit? I suspect that you might be grossly overestimating things here.

Valencer · February 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

I dont get the complaints. All the passives are basically garbage. Yes the actual stuff you put points into is ok but you can dump all 24 points you start with (its 23,23,24 if you are maxxed out) in something and its still not all that great. My worry is the difference is so little between the people whove played for years and people who played for days that noone will bother with it.

I wouldn't call them garbage, but I don't really think the unlockable tiered passives are that important, no.

Except for the crit chance boost, but I still suspect it's multiplicative.

Soulshine · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

I can't confirm for myself because haven't been able to get onto PTS yet due to the launcher erroring out with the "webgetrequest" error nonstop. Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought account-wide CPs were not supposed to become available to your alt characters until you attained VR1 (or level 50 in the future if VR ranks are removed). If that is the case then granting lowbie characters access to them might be a bug. If lowbie characters having access to your accounts CPs is working as designed then I fully agree with you.

I have vr14s on my account that is why my lowbie alts got 70cps. WAI

I have considered this, but it's really no different than someone crafting a full set of purple Seducer gear for their lvl 10 mage.

Take that further please - a level ten in crafted purple gear, and add to it 70CPs then tell me it's the same. NOT even close.

At the end of the day, why does it matter? The point I was making is that right now on 1.5, a vet player can easily make his/her alts godlike in relation to low level zones. So adding a few CP won't matter much because the disparity already exists. I mean, what is your concern exactly that lvl 30 characters will be soloing Dolmen and Public Dungeons? I already do this with my alts.

It matters specifically because of the already present divide and because we were told that the CP system was to be a means by which new players would not be so far divided from vets already in the game. This is not the case. As has already been pointed out by many comments around the boards, it clearly separates them even further than before.

If you have no issues whatever with the overall game presenting this kind of picture to a new player, cool for you. I do not feel the same.

That's all fine. I'm saying the disparity is already there. Do you have any idea how much more powerful a lvl 10 character is when he is wearing a full set of purple/gold set bonus gear? It's kinda ridiculous actually. What you are saying is nothing new. If you are that upset about it, then you might as well create a thread asking ZoS to prevent people from gearing their lowbies in uber powerful godlike gear sets. It's nothing new is the point I am making. I do it myself to help me level my alts faster.

the difference in gear can be made up if the new player is able to get the same quality gear from a veteran player(you know make some friends or already know a veteran player) , the difference in character power that comes from CP's can not be made up , it will be there until the new player maxes out the champion system .

Ok and....

I mean what is it exactly that you are suggesting? That a new player on his level 20 sorc is gonna see another sorc come along killing things faster, and rage/quit? I suspect that you might be grossly overestimating things here.

People rage quit over all sorts of things; people rage quiting over continued imbalance problems in the game has been happening for quite some time and that can easily be seen by the amount of threads made by people on this site and other sites, who noted it as one of the biggest reasons why they are leaving/have left the game. All they get in response is "good riddence" and "can I haz ur stuff?"

ZoS themselves already stated that they wanted to assure the gap between players was not so wide and that the CP system would be a way to see it improved. Unfortunately in it's current iteration it is not. If you disagree with that view, cool. Doesn't mean anyone is "grossly overestimating" anything. Given your more or less "so what?" attitude, I'd say your comments are pretty much the only "gross" thing being suggested.

DanielMaxwell · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

I can't confirm for myself because haven't been able to get onto PTS yet due to the launcher erroring out with the "webgetrequest" error nonstop. Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought account-wide CPs were not supposed to become available to your alt characters until you attained VR1 (or level 50 in the future if VR ranks are removed). If that is the case then granting lowbie characters access to them might be a bug. If lowbie characters having access to your accounts CPs is working as designed then I fully agree with you.

I have vr14s on my account that is why my lowbie alts got 70cps. WAI

I have considered this, but it's really no different than someone crafting a full set of purple Seducer gear for their lvl 10 mage.

Take that further please - a level ten in crafted purple gear, and add to it 70CPs then tell me it's the same. NOT even close.

At the end of the day, why does it matter? The point I was making is that right now on 1.5, a vet player can easily make his/her alts godlike in relation to low level zones. So adding a few CP won't matter much because the disparity already exists. I mean, what is your concern exactly that lvl 30 characters will be soloing Dolmen and Public Dungeons? I already do this with my alts.

It matters specifically because of the already present divide and because we were told that the CP system was to be a means by which new players would not be so far divided from vets already in the game. This is not the case. As has already been pointed out by many comments around the boards, it clearly separates them even further than before.

If you have no issues whatever with the overall game presenting this kind of picture to a new player, cool for you. I do not feel the same.

That's all fine. I'm saying the disparity is already there. Do you have any idea how much more powerful a lvl 10 character is when he is wearing a full set of purple/gold set bonus gear? It's kinda ridiculous actually. What you are saying is nothing new. If you are that upset about it, then you might as well create a thread asking ZoS to prevent people from gearing their lowbies in uber powerful godlike gear sets. It's nothing new is the point I am making. I do it myself to help me level my alts faster.

the difference in gear can be made up if the new player is able to get the same quality gear from a veteran player(you know make some friends or already know a veteran player) , the difference in character power that comes from CP's can not be made up , it will be there until the new player maxes out the champion system .

Ok and....

I mean what is it exactly that you are suggesting? That a new player on his level 20 sorc is gonna see another sorc come along killing things faster, and rage/quit? I suspect that you might be grossly overestimating things here.

you are comparing a power gap that can be overcome by getting better gear to a power gap that can not be overcome until the player gets 3600 CPs which that player can not even start earning until they reach level 50 in the game .

I never said anything about people rage quitting , I was pointing out the flaws in your comparison .

Alphashado · February 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

I can't confirm for myself because haven't been able to get onto PTS yet due to the launcher erroring out with the "webgetrequest" error nonstop. Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought account-wide CPs were not supposed to become available to your alt characters until you attained VR1 (or level 50 in the future if VR ranks are removed). If that is the case then granting lowbie characters access to them might be a bug. If lowbie characters having access to your accounts CPs is working as designed then I fully agree with you.

I have vr14s on my account that is why my lowbie alts got 70cps. WAI

I have considered this, but it's really no different than someone crafting a full set of purple Seducer gear for their lvl 10 mage.

Take that further please - a level ten in crafted purple gear, and add to it 70CPs then tell me it's the same. NOT even close.

At the end of the day, why does it matter? The point I was making is that right now on 1.5, a vet player can easily make his/her alts godlike in relation to low level zones. So adding a few CP won't matter much because the disparity already exists. I mean, what is your concern exactly that lvl 30 characters will be soloing Dolmen and Public Dungeons? I already do this with my alts.

It matters specifically because of the already present divide and because we were told that the CP system was to be a means by which new players would not be so far divided from vets already in the game. This is not the case. As has already been pointed out by many comments around the boards, it clearly separates them even further than before.

If you have no issues whatever with the overall game presenting this kind of picture to a new player, cool for you. I do not feel the same.

That's all fine. I'm saying the disparity is already there. Do you have any idea how much more powerful a lvl 10 character is when he is wearing a full set of purple/gold set bonus gear? It's kinda ridiculous actually. What you are saying is nothing new. If you are that upset about it, then you might as well create a thread asking ZoS to prevent people from gearing their lowbies in uber powerful godlike gear sets. It's nothing new is the point I am making. I do it myself to help me level my alts faster.

the difference in gear can be made up if the new player is able to get the same quality gear from a veteran player(you know make some friends or already know a veteran player) , the difference in character power that comes from CP's can not be made up , it will be there until the new player maxes out the champion system .

Ok and....

I mean what is it exactly that you are suggesting? That a new player on his level 20 sorc is gonna see another sorc come along killing things faster, and rage/quit? I suspect that you might be grossly overestimating things here.

People rage quit over all sorts of things; people rage quiting over continued imbalance problems in the game has been happening for quite some time and that can easily be seen by the amount of threads made by people on this site and other sites, who noted it as one of the biggest reasons why they are leaving/have left the game. All they get in response is "good riddence" and "can I haz ur stuff?"

ZoS themselves already stated that they wanted to assure the gap between players was not so wide and that the CP system would be a way to see it improved. Unfortunately in it's current iteration it is not. If you disagree with that view, cool. Doesn't mean anyone is "grossly overestimating" anything. Given your more or less "so what?" attitude, I'd say your comments are pretty much the only "gross" thing being suggested.

I have never said good riddance or any of that childish garbage. I am voicing my opinion. And my opinion is that the disparity between one lvl 20 character and another lvl 20 character is not "game breaking".

I think the amount of XP needed to gain a CP is an issue.
I think the passive attributes Magicka/Stamina/Health, even with the current diminishing returns could end up being an issue for END GAME.

I DO NOT think that low level chars with champion points is a big deal. That is my opinion. I never even remotely suggested a "good riddance" attitude because my OPINION is that lowbies are NOT going to be mortified with greef and frustration because some other guy can solo public dungeons and he can't. because as I have already stated, this is happening already and I haven't seen one thread on this forum from a new player saying this:

"omg my crafting level is too low to craft nice gear. I don't have enough gold to buy nice gear either. Yet this rich guy next to me has a super duper set of gear that I cannot make or buy yet and he is killing stuff faster than me, Therefore I quit."

So we will just agree to disagree.

Ysne58 · February 2015

One way to prevent the gap from getting bigger would be to allow everyone to earn cp beginning at level 1

Alphashado · February 2015

Ysne58 wrote: »

One way to prevent the gap from getting bigger would be to allow everyone to earn cp beginning at level 1

That is actually a very good idea. That way a new player would have access to the more powerful passives a little earlier, and the disparity between players with a ton of CP and players that are just getting in to VRs with their first character would be more of a gap between 100CP and 500 CP compared to 1CP and 500CP. And since the best passives are lower in the tree, the gap at higher levels would only include the less important passives.

I like it. In fact, you may want to start a thread specifically discussing that option.

Soulshine · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

I can't confirm for myself because haven't been able to get onto PTS yet due to the launcher erroring out with the "webgetrequest" error nonstop. Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought account-wide CPs were not supposed to become available to your alt characters until you attained VR1 (or level 50 in the future if VR ranks are removed). If that is the case then granting lowbie characters access to them might be a bug. If lowbie characters having access to your accounts CPs is working as designed then I fully agree with you.

I have vr14s on my account that is why my lowbie alts got 70cps. WAI

I have considered this, but it's really no different than someone crafting a full set of purple Seducer gear for their lvl 10 mage.

Take that further please - a level ten in crafted purple gear, and add to it 70CPs then tell me it's the same. NOT even close.

At the end of the day, why does it matter? The point I was making is that right now on 1.5, a vet player can easily make his/her alts godlike in relation to low level zones. So adding a few CP won't matter much because the disparity already exists. I mean, what is your concern exactly that lvl 30 characters will be soloing Dolmen and Public Dungeons? I already do this with my alts.

It matters specifically because of the already present divide and because we were told that the CP system was to be a means by which new players would not be so far divided from vets already in the game. This is not the case. As has already been pointed out by many comments around the boards, it clearly separates them even further than before.

If you have no issues whatever with the overall game presenting this kind of picture to a new player, cool for you. I do not feel the same.

That's all fine. I'm saying the disparity is already there. Do you have any idea how much more powerful a lvl 10 character is when he is wearing a full set of purple/gold set bonus gear? It's kinda ridiculous actually. What you are saying is nothing new. If you are that upset about it, then you might as well create a thread asking ZoS to prevent people from gearing their lowbies in uber powerful godlike gear sets. It's nothing new is the point I am making. I do it myself to help me level my alts faster.

the difference in gear can be made up if the new player is able to get the same quality gear from a veteran player(you know make some friends or already know a veteran player) , the difference in character power that comes from CP's can not be made up , it will be there until the new player maxes out the champion system .

Ok and....

I mean what is it exactly that you are suggesting? That a new player on his level 20 sorc is gonna see another sorc come along killing things faster, and rage/quit? I suspect that you might be grossly overestimating things here.

People rage quit over all sorts of things; people rage quiting over continued imbalance problems in the game has been happening for quite some time and that can easily be seen by the amount of threads made by people on this site and other sites, who noted it as one of the biggest reasons why they are leaving/have left the game. All they get in response is "good riddence" and "can I haz ur stuff?"

ZoS themselves already stated that they wanted to assure the gap between players was not so wide and that the CP system would be a way to see it improved. Unfortunately in it's current iteration it is not. If you disagree with that view, cool. Doesn't mean anyone is "grossly overestimating" anything. Given your more or less "so what?" attitude, I'd say your comments are pretty much the only "gross" thing being suggested.

I have never said good riddance or any of that childish garbage. I am voicing my opinion. And my opinion is that the disparity between one lvl 20 character and another lvl 20 character is not "game breaking".

I think the amount of XP needed to gain a CP is an issue.
I think the passive attributes Magicka/Stamina/Health, even with the current diminishing returns could end up being an issue for END GAME.

I DO NOT think that low level chars with champion points is a big deal. That is my opinion. I never even remotely suggested a "good riddance" attitude because my OPINION is that lowbies are NOT going to be mortified with greef and frustration because some other guy can solo public dungeons and he can't. because as I have already stated, this is happening already and I haven't seen one thread on this forum from a new player saying this:

"omg my crafting level is too low to craft nice gear. I don't have enough gold to buy nice gear either. Yet this rich guy next to me has a super duper set of gear that I cannot make or buy yet and he is killing stuff faster than me, Therefore I quit."

So we will just agree to disagree.

The fact that you "DO NOT think that low level chars with champion points is a big deal," is beyond obvious. The rest of your illustrations are completely off base, exaggerated, and not the point being presented at all - so yes I disagree with you. Gladly. Moving on.

morvegil · February 2015

The game will fail just liek every other MMO does when it goes to F2P

Valencer · February 2015

Ysne58 wrote: »

One way to prevent the gap from getting bigger would be to allow everyone to earn cp beginning at level 1

I don't think that's even necessary. The more I play around with the Champion System on the PTS, the more I think they've put a lot of thought into it.

Sure would be nice if they gave us some more CP for testing purposes though. So we can test every passive in-depth and get a feel for how significant each one is.

SanderBuraas · February 2015

The champion system separates players who have spent a lot of time on the game, and those who have just gotten started. It will allow for difference in power between players, but that will always be the case in online games. Some people have better gear, stats, and some might just be better at the game.

If you look away from the competetive side to the it, the champion system will allow players to customize their characters and builds to a further extent, which is always positive.

Vahrokh · February 2015

Smepic wrote: »

If you look away from the competetive side to the it, the champion system will allow players to customize their characters and builds to a further extent, which is always positive.

The bolded text rules out PvP and trials (based on beating other guilds time completion).
So what's left is soloing and 4 men. A bit too little to justify that big of a new system.

ashlee17 · February 2015

Hi TehMagnus. Great post

Very valid concerns.

I was very surprised when I saw the pasives that the champion system will unlock.

I too feel like they mostly come under the heading of vertical progression and not horizontal.

To me better chest loot and shorter harvesting time are great examples of the horizontal we will have in this system.

But any pasives relating to having more health, Stamina, magica, crit chance etc... Make our characters stronger the way lvls would and represent vertical progression.

This will inevitably lead to gaps in strength between the haves and the have nots.

I don't want to turn around to a new player and say 'I can't take you to do x because you won't survive without x-pasives".

Atm if a new VR 14 wants to come along we can take them. If they have any trouble with the harder content we can just make them some better gear, hand them a few pots and some food and they are good to go. Worst case we can buy them a respec to help them rebalance their attribute points. (Of which we all have the same amount!)

But it seems that with the current incarnation of the champion system this will no longer be the case.

I will have much more health/Stam/magic (a clear combat advantage) then a new player untill they catch up to my CP level. And the gap will grow over time.

Let me know if you all with me so far...

The solution I would propose is to take all boosts to strength out of the champion system. Let gear, food, potions etc make all the difference past max lvl.

Instead fill the champion system with ways to broaden our characters abilities and have more fun.

Let CPs help us craft stronger items, access different class skills, run faster, jump higher, take less fall damage out of combat, bribe merchants for better prices etc.

Add pasives that are fun that don't give those with a substantial amount of CP a clear combat advantage over those that don't.

Would something like this help TehMagnus?

Thanks for reading. Glad to see very passionate players in the forums and please be kind to my humble ideas

Razzak · February 2015

ashlee17 wrote: »

Hi TehMagnus. Great post Very valid concerns.

I was very surprised when I saw the pasives that the champion system will unlock.

I too feel like they mostly come under the heading of vertical progression and not horizontal.

To me better chest loot and shorter harvesting time are great examples of the horizontal we will have in this system.

But any pasives relating to having more health, Stamina, magica, crit chance etc... Make our characters stronger the way lvls would and represent vertical progression.

This will inevitably lead to gaps in strength between the haves and the have nots.

I don't want to turn around to a new player and say 'I can't take you to do x because you won't survive without x-pasives".

Atm if a new VR 14 wants to come along we can take them. If they have any trouble with the harder content we can just make them some better gear, hand them a few pots and some food and they are good to go. Worst case we can buy them a respec to help them rebalance their attribute points. (Of which we all have the same amount!)

But it seems that with the current incarnation of the champion system this will no longer be the case.

I will have much more health/Stam/magic (a clear combat advantage) then a new player untill they catch up to my CP level. And the gap will grow over time.

Let me know if you all with me so far...

The solution I would propose is to take all boosts to strength out of the champion system. Let gear, food, potions etc make all the difference past max lvl.

Instead fill the champion system with ways to broaden our characters abilities and have more fun.

Let CPs help us craft stronger items, access different class skills, run faster, jump higher, take less fall damage out of combat, bribe merchants for better prices etc.

Add pasives that are fun that don't give those with a substantial amount of CP a clear combat advantage over those that don't.

Would something like this help TehMagnus?

Thanks for reading. Glad to see very passionate players in the forums and please be kind to my humble ideas

I couldn't agree more, but considering how long it took them to make CP system as is, I am afraid it will not happen before B2P and console players start making their own displeasure about this exact problem, known.
I imagine their main focus right now, is towards cash shop and console release, and considering how much work they will have with console related bugs after the launch, there's very little hope they will want to redesign entire CP system.
They haven't been able to find the time and effort to fix grouping tool since 1.5 and that does not require as much work as making CP system more horizontal.

TehMagnus · February 2015

ashlee17 wrote: »

Hi TehMagnus. Great post Very valid concerns.

I was very surprised when I saw the pasives that the champion system will unlock.

I too feel like they mostly come under the heading of vertical progression and not horizontal.

To me better chest loot and shorter harvesting time are great examples of the horizontal we will have in this system.

But any pasives relating to having more health, Stamina, magica, crit chance etc... Make our characters stronger the way lvls would and represent vertical progression.

This will inevitably lead to gaps in strength between the haves and the have nots.

I don't want to turn around to a new player and say 'I can't take you to do x because you won't survive without x-pasives".

Atm if a new VR 14 wants to come along we can take them. If they have any trouble with the harder content we can just make them some better gear, hand them a few pots and some food and they are good to go. Worst case we can buy them a respec to help them rebalance their attribute points. (Of which we all have the same amount!)

But it seems that with the current incarnation of the champion system this will no longer be the case.

I will have much more health/Stam/magic (a clear combat advantage) then a new player untill they catch up to my CP level. And the gap will grow over time.

Let me know if you all with me so far...

The solution I would propose is to take all boosts to strength out of the champion system. Let gear, food, potions etc make all the difference past max lvl.

Instead fill the champion system with ways to broaden our characters abilities and have more fun.

Let CPs help us craft stronger items, access different class skills, run faster, jump higher, take less fall damage out of combat, bribe merchants for better prices etc.

Add pasives that are fun that don't give those with a substantial amount of CP a clear combat advantage over those that don't.

Would something like this help TehMagnus?

Thanks for reading. Glad to see very passionate players in the forums and please be kind to my humble ideas

Heya!

What you describe is horizontal progression indeed. I don't really like it tbh but that is a matter of personal opinion (it still is better than current implementation in PTS though).

TESO could have been extremeley successfull if they had just implemented leveling like most MMOs do, increasing the levels every 6-12 months by adding single player story elements that allow you to gain those 10 new levels by enjoying a solo quest if you want and unlocking at the same time new armors that look more badass and are stronger. In order to let us progress even further they could have added class specialisations that unlock specialized morphs of skills and increase the overall diverzity of the game.

Lineage 2 is a perfect example of such leveling systems and it's one of the most popular/lasting MMOs to this date.

pppontus · February 2015

Agree 100% with this.

At the bare minimum the Champion System passives that affect combat in any way needs to go. I can sort of accept a system where we can gain tiny increases to crit, cost reduction etc. with heavy diminishing returns.. and the entire gain should still be small enough that the gap isn't that big of a deal. As is now, they basically removed the crit from our gear and put it in a must have passive at 89-90 CP.

All active stats should max out at a maximum of ~8% either way, the increases at the moment are a bit too big IMO.

Kragorn · February 2015

pppontus wrote: »

At the bare minimum the Champion System passives that affect combat in any way needs to go. I can sort of accept a system where we can gain tiny increases to crit, cost reduction etc. with heavy diminishing returns.. and the entire gain should still be small enough that the gap isn't that big of a deal. As is now, they basically removed the crit from our gear and put it in a must have passive at 89-90 CP.

On the assumption ZOS designed this as the massive time-sink most people complaining about it seem to think it is, if they did it the way you're suggesting only the real hardcore min/maxers would tolerate doing it at all: thus ZOS pitiful excuse for an 'end-game' would simply be irrelevant.

I don't disagree with your ideas, I hate what CP will produce because we've seen it already for a long time in Rift (PAs), but I fear ZOS know exactly what they want to achieve and the reality, like their failed VR 'vision' will only dawn on them when it's far too late.

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2015

I personally don't like the Champion System at all, and i'll explain why.

1. The Champion System forces me to redo content i have already done, and redo grinding/quests i have already done in order to get my character back to par where they currently are now, and the diminishing returns inherent in the Champion System doesn't make this an attractive proposition at all. At the end of the day the Champion System is not really giving me anything I don't already have. On the contrary, the Champion System is taking away what i already have, and giving me a crap sandwich to eat telling me how its so great they are taking away what i worked so hard since April to earn.

2. I remember them talking about, promising, and boasting how we are going to get the Imperial City, Wrothgar, etc....that never came to pass, instead they are going to put that behind a paywall(which was the plan all along), and have spent time crafting another system(Champion System) that is nothing more then another long grind that appears on the surface to be more attactive then Vet ranks, when in reality it takes away what you already have and puts arbitrary restrictions such as 400k xp required to get a point ensuring you will be forced to waste time on this system, or quit, one of the other.

3. No new content, i'd love them to take this Champion Sytem and trash it, and release the Imperial City and Wrothgar like they said they would months ago. I know this is rehashing on point # 2, but it still stands. What exactly am i supposed to do with the CS? PVP and do Cyrodiil daily quests everyday? There is nothing else to do...im so sick of AA hRC, etc i could puke, about the only entertainment right now left in this game is the occassional dungeon and PVP, infact if it wasn't for PVP, i would have left this game months ago...there is simply nothing to do, and they stacked another grinding system on top of nothing to do without adding a single new piece of content to explore and do, thus were going to be left holding the bag for months with no new content since the last Upper Crag/DSA update...thats just sad.

there is a time an place for everything, and right now isn't the time or place for the Champion System, however it IS time for some new content in the game like The Imperial City and Wrothgar and give PVE and PVP players something new to do for petes sake!

Morshire · February 2015

I think I am somewhere in the middle on this. I like what the CP offers (In the raw idea form mind you) BUT releasing it as it is on PTS, IMO, is going to be a disaster that will cause ZOS at some point to "rebalance" the game again.

Point is, we all want our characters to progress. We need that progression in a game to keep the challenges going. (More so with lack of new content) But this must be introduced in increments. I mean seriously, people wouldn't commit to subs (IMO here, cause they didn't want to "commit" that much to this game) So ZOS, in an attempt to appeal to them, offered B2P (Make up your own reasons, I am just trying to show my opinion, not stating facts) How many people are going to jump on board to buy a $60 game that will take them 5 years to complete (Character progression wise)? And if they do not spend another dime for those said 5 years, they won't even be able to play the whole game (Hopefully we get DLC in those 5 years).

Now if they did say 500 CP maxed out for 1.6...then we got more CP with the next DLC, etc. The "gap" wouldn't grow, and people could actually see the light at the end of the tunnel. This would also incentivize the CP gains, not just make a chore of trying to get them all.

100% my humble opinion throughout. Please feel free to see the topic, not the opinions. Cause we all got them and they differ A LOT.

Valencer · February 2015

So has anyone tested the crit passives? Are they additive or multiplicative?

spoqster · February 2015

ashlee17 wrote: »

Hi TehMagnus. Great post Very valid concerns.

I was very surprised when I saw the pasives that the champion system will unlock.

I too feel like they mostly come under the heading of vertical progression and not horizontal.

To me better chest loot and shorter harvesting time are great examples of the horizontal we will have in this system.

But any pasives relating to having more health, Stamina, magica, crit chance etc... Make our characters stronger the way lvls would and represent vertical progression.

This will inevitably lead to gaps in strength between the haves and the have nots.

I don't want to turn around to a new player and say 'I can't take you to do x because you won't survive without x-pasives".

Atm if a new VR 14 wants to come along we can take them. If they have any trouble with the harder content we can just make them some better gear, hand them a few pots and some food and they are good to go. Worst case we can buy them a respec to help them rebalance their attribute points. (Of which we all have the same amount!)

But it seems that with the current incarnation of the champion system this will no longer be the case.

I will have much more health/Stam/magic (a clear combat advantage) then a new player untill they catch up to my CP level. And the gap will grow over time.

Let me know if you all with me so far...

The solution I would propose is to take all boosts to strength out of the champion system. Let gear, food, potions etc make all the difference past max lvl.

Instead fill the champion system with ways to broaden our characters abilities and have more fun.

Let CPs help us craft stronger items, access different class skills, run faster, jump higher, take less fall damage out of combat, bribe merchants for better prices etc.

Add pasives that are fun that don't give those with a substantial amount of CP a clear combat advantage over those that don't.

Would something like this help TehMagnus?

Thanks for reading. Glad to see very passionate players in the forums and please be kind to my humble ideas

Wonderful comment ashlee! What you are describing is what I expected and I also was surprised to see the character buffs in the champion system. I think with the current system they missed the mark.

The irony here is that they wouldn't have needed to do all the rebalancing had they designed the CS to be horizontal. They burned a lot of money to replace one vertical progression system with another, when in fact they needed to create a horizontal system.

TehMagnus · February 2015

Valencer wrote: »

So has anyone tested the crit passives? Are they additive or multiplicative?

Additive you get +12% base spell crit

Valencer · February 2015

That's an odd one then. Way too good compared to the others. I think multiplicative would make more sense.

I'm going to /feedback it on the PTS soon.

Thanks for figuring that one out, though!

stumpy999 · February 2015

can I have your stuff?...............

Spottswoode · February 2015

Valencer wrote: »

The 55% health increase was an extrapolation done by @Spottswoode based on data I provided earlier in the discussion.

He calculated the first 12 points into the warrior group of constellations gave a 3.7% increase in health. The next 12 points about half of that.

For the sake of extrapolation and discussion, he made the assumption that the "The Warrior" was a perk that could possibly have 14 other equivalent perks giving an equal health increase, each with their own diminishing return calculations. 15 perks that would each give a 3.7% health increase for the initial 12 points invested into them (hence, 15*12 = 180 CP and 15*3.7 =~ 55.5% ).

That much is right. I have played the test server though. That post was part of a much larger one I trimmed down to the patchwork it is now. Not my best work, I must admit. "Perks" was originally referring to the points on the constellations. I had referred to the Oblivion and Skyrim models (which were part of the much larger original post) which used perks as a progression mechanism.

wrote:

It'll never become bigger than an overall 7.4% health increase. More interesting is the fact that the initial 12 points already provide more than half of the maximum health increase that could possibly be achieved.

Now, this is assuming every 12 points the health increase is cut in half. Given my initial data, this isn't entirely the sweet spot, so it might be different. What we do know is it won't ever go near 55%. Not even close.

Ehh..more or less. I had been up about 22 hours straight when I posted that. So, needless to say my coherence was questionable at best. But yes, massive increases are going to be nigh impossible. There will be substantial increases of around 10 - 12% that will be possible.

Valencer wrote: »

That's an odd one then. Way too good compared to the others. Multiplicative would make more sense.

I'm going to /feedback that one on the PTS soon.

Most of the best perks are pretty low level. So I'd rather switch both of the crit spots for the 10 points slots. Not exactly game breaking, but it's pretty substantial. By the way, every character has a base 10% crit chance.

TehMagnus wrote:

When stacking and AOEing or stacking & killing which is part of nearly any raiding strategy, it is extreme.

They aren't little bonuses, I think you don't know much about the game mechanics When I look at those numbers and the time it takes to get a CP compared to the huge increase it gives especially at early ranks, I can assure you this is just like the difficulty wall and frustration people had before VR levels nerf when they would die if they tried to take onto 2 mobs while being unprepared.

Well...most of them are actually pretty small. Arcane Well is probably the most game breaking out of all them, though. Also, I'd think we'd want most of the more powerful stuff early on. It would lessen the vertical climb to a good degree. Or we can just nerf the crap out of them.

If nerfs are the route we are going, I would make Arcane Well require an action to activate and disperse the magicka or only allow one person to draw it.

TehMagnus · February 2015

Pretty small here, pretty small there, pretty small ignore spell resist, prettysmall increase spell damage, pretty small elemental damage increase, pretty small spell cost reduction, pretty small crit chance increase, pretty small crit damage increase: boom 10k more DPS. Prett small increase yeah

Spottswoode · February 2015

TehMagnus wrote: »

Pretty small here, pretty small there, pretty small ignore spell resist, prettysmall increase spell damage, pretty small elemental damage increase, pretty small spell cost reduction, pretty small crit chance increase, pretty small crit damage increase: boom 10k more DPS. Prett small increase yeah

Show me the numbers. And distribution.

AshySamurai · February 2015

300th comment! GZ all!

@TehMagnus‌ I know we aren't agre with each other all time, but did you not tired of defending you position? It is like a dispute atheist to a believer. You stated your position very clear and if someone disagree - that's great. But it's great till your opponent listen to other's words.