Paul Sage confirms ESO ending Loyalty Program after 9-month reward

Aerius_Sygale · February 2015

The hell? They about half a month ago (I think) just mentioned 9 and 12 month loyalty rewards...if it stops at 9, it had better be the Senche mount, that was the one non-horse mount we have been promised since long ago, around what, May or June of 2014? Yeah, some considerable while back...

Iago · February 2015

this does not surprise me at all.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Jice wrote: »

david271749 wrote: »

@Jice‌
Club Nintendo will be replaced by another reward system. They do that every so often. There was one before club nintendo, and there will be one after.

You missed the Sarcasm.

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

It's not a sense of entitlement, it's a biological response. Something pleasant is taken away, a negative sensation is usually paid toward the force doing the removal.

Science.

Take that! With your high horse!

/micdrop

Science, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

You've put forth your hypotheses, now point me to the experiments that support it?

Milgram has done numerous experiments on human behavior and many of the results are actually surprising. I point you to experiment #2 in which he tested how mad people actually get when people cut into a line/queue barge: http://www.spring.org.uk/2012/03/how-society-works-8-revealing-psychological-insights-into-our-social-behaviour.php

My high horse? You just assumed name dropping 'Science' won you an argument before hearing any rebuttal.

Rebuttal:

Entitlement - Noun
The belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.

Biological or not, to continue to believe that you deserve new free things is Entitlement, the rewards you have gained are not being taken away, thus your example doesn't even relate to the situation because nothing is being removed.

Also, unless you've payed for that mic, you probably shouldn't be dropping it, really nice mic's are upwards of $120 to $300. Would you be ok if someone dropped your phone like that, just because they think they made an argument that can't be rebutted?

Yea

and stuff. For Science!

Here's my rebuttal to your rebuttal of rebuttal'ings with rebuttalness of rebuttality:

It's still not entitlement. To express a negative emotion after a form of positive reinforcement is removed.

IE: The act of someone saying WTF to this announcement, doesn't denote entitlement as much as it denotes displeasure.

And they weren't free things, they were attempts to placate the growing unrest of the masses when promises went unfulfilled.

We can argue semantics and toss around quasi-scientific facts around all day.

Fact of the matter is, it's not entitlement. It was given without provocation. Not demanded. To my knowledge any way.

I could be wrong but, oh well. [snip] happens.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Dazin93 · February 2015

Jice wrote: »

You've put forth your hypotheses, now point me to the experiments that support it?

Milgram has done numerous experiments on human behavior and many of the results are actually surprising. I point you to experiment #2 in which he tested how mad people actually get when people cut into a line/queue barge: http://www.spring.org.uk/2012/03/how-society-works-8-revealing-psychological-insights-into-our-social-behaviour.php

@Jice‌
Didn't read much of your post since most of it was hyperbole, but if your going to cite real professionals works to make yourself look intelligent you should at least do so in the proper context.

Milgram's studies on human behaviors were based on American social norms that are not necessarily synonymous with social norms in other cultures. Spend some time educating yourself on dependent and interdependent societies and then see if your capable of stating a logical thesis that is applicable to ESO's international community.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Also, yes. I have a mic that I use just for this occasion. Garage sale like 15 years ago.

Jice · February 2015

Dazin93 wrote: »

Spend some time educating yourself on dependent and interdependent societies and then see if your capable of stating a logical thesis that is applicable to ESO's international community.

Right...cause ESO's international community is so far out of left field to an american one. Let me guess, in your mind I should be looking at Medieval Hindu culture to really get the juxtaposition to make a proper hypothesis out of...

my point was that sometimes what we think will be the reaction of people a lot of times isn't actually how the majority will react.

Coming back to the actual topic. NOBODY LOST ANYTHING! Everyone's getting a nice 9 month loyalty bonus if they were subbed for 9 months, then the bonuses end. That's it. There's nothing being taken away. Should we get mad I can no longer use the subway stamps I got 15 years ago too, since I still eat at subway? Should I be angry that my boss didn't buy my lunch today, he bought everyone lunch yesterday, I should expect him to buy it today right?

"I got something yesterday thus I deserve to get it today and tomorrow even though situations have changed"..That's entitlement. If they didn't feel the need to give us little bonuses in the first place this wouldn't even be a thread.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Jice wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

Spend some time educating yourself on dependent and interdependent societies and then see if your capable of stating a logical thesis that is applicable to ESO's international community.

Right...cause ESO's international community is so far out of left field to an american one. Let me guess, in your mind I should be looking at Medieval Hindu culture to really get the juxtaposition to make a proper hypothesis out of...

my point was that sometimes what we think will be the reaction of people a lot of times isn't actually how the majority will react.

Coming back to the actual topic. NOBODY LOST ANYTHING! Everyone's getting a nice 9 month loyalty bonus if they were subbed for 9 months, then the bonuses end. That's it. There's nothing being taken away. Should we get mad I can no longer use the subway stamps I got 15 years ago too, since I still eat at subway? Should I be angry that my boss didn't buy my lunch today, he bought everyone lunch yesterday, I should expect him to buy it today right?

"I got something yesterday thus I deserve to get it today and tomorrow even though situations have changed"..That's entitlement. If they didn't feel the need to give us little bonuses in the first place this wouldn't even be a thread.

Who said they deserved something? I just expressed displeasure at the ending of the program.

Audigy · February 2015

So the mount they hand out for the loyal subscribers is the last reward then I guess?

At least its not another pet

Question however is, will those that might reach a 9 month sub in 2016 still get it, or is it the last and only time that they hand it out?

Gidorick · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Jice wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

Spend some time educating yourself on dependent and interdependent societies and then see if your capable of stating a logical thesis that is applicable to ESO's international community.

Right...cause ESO's international community is so far out of left field to an american one. Let me guess, in your mind I should be looking at Medieval Hindu culture to really get the juxtaposition to make a proper hypothesis out of...

my point was that sometimes what we think will be the reaction of people a lot of times isn't actually how the majority will react.

Coming back to the actual topic. NOBODY LOST ANYTHING! Everyone's getting a nice 9 month loyalty bonus if they were subbed for 9 months, then the bonuses end. That's it. There's nothing being taken away. Should we get mad I can no longer use the subway stamps I got 15 years ago too, since I still eat at subway? Should I be angry that my boss didn't buy my lunch today, he bought everyone lunch yesterday, I should expect him to buy it today right?

"I got something yesterday thus I deserve to get it today and tomorrow even though situations have changed"..That's entitlement. If they didn't feel the need to give us little bonuses in the first place this wouldn't even be a thread.

Who said they deserved something? I just expressed displeasure at the ending of the program.

I really don't see the incentive to sub at this point. I had some suggestions I put in this post here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/150450/eso-subscription-benefits-suggestions

Jice · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Who said they deserved something? I just expressed displeasure at the ending of the program.

And what is the root of that displeasure? Why are you displeased by it? Did you not like the taste? Was it uncomfortable to sleep on? Could it have anything to do with people not getting free stuff they think they should be getting?

Garwulf · February 2015

I am not surprised. Once the CLOWN shop was put in the game at the expense of real content and the Champion system, a minor rejig of levelling was proclaimed as something special, there was little likely hood of anyone wanting to be loyal. So why waste time developing loyalty items. Titanic going down...,

UrQuan · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

He just said it's what the "community" wanted. He didn't say it was this community that wanted it.

I didn't even know these guys were interested in ESO. I mean, I know they played Dungeons & Dragons, but...
Community+%281%29.jpg

Grileenor · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

That about sums it up. Plus Paul Sage was also asked during this twich stream his opinion on why the game switched to B2P. He himmed and hawed, beat around the bush for a few moments (clearly uncomfortable) and once again fell back on "it was what the community wanted".

And they even dare telling us, they are always honest to us.

Alphashado wrote: »

So ZoS's idea of community sure as heck isn't this forum or any of the people that were happily paying a subscription. Doesn't surprise me a bit that they are removing the loyalty rewards. Because the only "community" ZoS seems to care about is the community that was demanding to play ESO for free.

He went on to suggest that they read the forums and understand how unhappy many people are, but he seems to think everyone is appeased by this option because if you want a sub, you can still have one. I don't think he/they understand that the reason we were happy to pay a sub was because we wanted nothing to do with a cash shop or changes to the game that always follow.

He does not unterstand, they all don't seem to understand how and why people here are unhappy. Perhaps they should listen, not pretending to understand.

Well written. When they cease their loyality program, perhaps it is time to cease mine as well. Its free, why bother paying for it...

AngryNord · February 2015

Garwulf wrote: »

I am not surprised. Once the CLOWN shop was put in the game at the expense of real content and the Champion system, a minor rejig of levelling was proclaimed as something special, there was little likely hood of anyone wanting to be loyal. So why waste time developing loyalty items. Titanic going down...,

Can I have Your stuff? :P

firstdecan · February 2015

This is simply unpossible. Zeni is obviously doing this so they can screw over their beta testers by offering a pet monkey in the cash shop. After all, everyone wants to watch their pet monkey scratch his but and eat it while they're playing ESO.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · February 2015

Ourorboros wrote: »

Fine by me. The rewards so far, pets, have been less than stellar. They are cute at best, and annoying clutter in banks at worst. Now, it'd be a different story if rewards were not just fluff.

I agree.

I'm not one to bother about stuff like this, I find the concept of loyalty when applied to playing a video game kind of laughable, but if a developer is going to pander to the entitled they may as well make the effort .. and the 'rewards' ZOS have given out are pretty meh.

When I was in beta and ZOS said the 'reward' was going to be the monkey I was looking forward to it, at least it wasn't your normal dog/cat/wolf/whatever, but the reality was an awfully animated mid-brown lump that squeaks annoyingly, the 'loyalty' ones are little better (though at least the wraith doesn't make a damned annoying noise).

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Jice wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

A little something to say, "Hey thanks for putting up for our trips and stumbles."

Veteran Rewards, as they're called in other games, aren't uncommon. They're a way for them to thank us for keeping the faith and staying the course.

Faith? Course? I payed them so I could play the game they were selling. That in no way entitles me to free stuff. I get why the company does it, what I'm not getting is the outrage that they aren't going to be anymore. Club Nintendo is about to disappear too..DAMN YOU ESO! NOTHER FAIL! YOU PROMISED! etc..

It's not a sense of entitlement, it's a biological response. Something pleasant is taken away, a negative sensation is usually paid toward the force doing the removal.

Science.

Take that! With your high horse!

/micdrop

Man is supposed to have evolved above animal responses, adults are supposed to be able to deal with disappointment without throwing hissy-fits like their 5-year-old children.

MrGhosty · February 2015

Maybe I've got it wrong but I looked at the loyalty rewards as perk and encouragement to continue subbing. Nothing entitled about that, I paid for subscription and they threw in a bit of random tat every few months to thank me for it.

There isn't anything wrong with saying "oh they're not doing that anymore? bummer." I would hardly call it a hissyfit or some of the other statements being made. The loyalty rewards and their various incarnations across other games are a way of having a visual badge that you've done something, been around, etc.

That all said, I don't find the news terribly surprising. Now they have a cash shop, no way are they going to waste resources making stuff only a small group gets for free when they can use it to bolster their store offerings which seem fairly thin to begin with if they launch with what is shown on the PTS atm. I do hope the last reward is a senche tiger mount though, i will be one step closer to creating He-Man, or Skeletor depending on the coloring.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Jice wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

Spend some time educating yourself on dependent and interdependent societies and then see if your capable of stating a logical thesis that is applicable to ESO's international community.

Right...cause ESO's international community is so far out of left field to an american one. Let me guess, in your mind I should be looking at Medieval Hindu culture to really get the juxtaposition to make a proper hypothesis out of...

my point was that sometimes what we think will be the reaction of people a lot of times isn't actually how the majority will react.

Coming back to the actual topic. NOBODY LOST ANYTHING! Everyone's getting a nice 9 month loyalty bonus if they were subbed for 9 months, then the bonuses end. That's it. There's nothing being taken away. Should we get mad I can no longer use the subway stamps I got 15 years ago too, since I still eat at subway? Should I be angry that my boss didn't buy my lunch today, he bought everyone lunch yesterday, I should expect him to buy it today right?

"I got something yesterday thus I deserve to get it today and tomorrow even though situations have changed"..That's entitlement. If they didn't feel the need to give us little bonuses in the first place this wouldn't even be a thread.

Who said they deserved something? I just expressed displeasure at the ending of the program.

I really don't see the incentive to sub at this point. I had some suggestions I put in this post here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/150450/eso-subscription-benefits-suggestions

I saw those, good ideas.

Jice wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Who said they deserved something? I just expressed displeasure at the ending of the program.

And what is the root of that displeasure? Why are you displeased by it? Did you not like the taste? Was it uncomfortable to sleep on? Could it have anything to do with people not getting free stuff they think they should be getting?

The root of the displeasure? I won't be getting anymore goodies. While not deserved or warranted, they were at least a nice gesture.

Why are you so combative?

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Jice wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

A little something to say, "Hey thanks for putting up for our trips and stumbles."

Veteran Rewards, as they're called in other games, aren't uncommon. They're a way for them to thank us for keeping the faith and staying the course.

Faith? Course? I payed them so I could play the game they were selling. That in no way entitles me to free stuff. I get why the company does it, what I'm not getting is the outrage that they aren't going to be anymore. Club Nintendo is about to disappear too..DAMN YOU ESO! NOTHER FAIL! YOU PROMISED! etc..

It's not a sense of entitlement, it's a biological response. Something pleasant is taken away, a negative sensation is usually paid toward the force doing the removal.

Science.

Take that! With your high horse!

/micdrop

Man is supposed to have evolved above animal responses, adults are supposed to be able to deal with disappointment without throwing hissy-fits like their 5-year-old children.

The fact that my post was an attempt at being facetiously funny and to bring levity to a WAY TOO TENSE topic aside; where was the hissy-fit?

Take a breath guys, step off the soap boxes. We're all in this together!

It's a game, have fun. Bond with your fellow internet nerds.

Gamer Solidarity!

SantieClaws · February 2015

I don't need pets or mounts. Going forward they could do something much better for those who have "subbed". Instead of us losing access to all DLC if we "unsub" perhaps they could make it so we get access to DLC that is more than three months old if we were subbed at the time the DLC came out. Seems to really discourage "subbing" if once you "unsub" then you lose everything with no recognition for all the months you were "subbed"

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

wenxue2222b16_ESO wrote: »

I don't need pets or mounts. Going forward they could do something much better for those who have "subbed". Instead of us losing access to all DLC if we "unsub" perhaps they could make it so we get access to DLC that is more than three months old if we were subbed at the time the DLC came out. Seems to really discourage "subbing" if once you "unsub" then you lose everything with no recognition for all the months you were "subbed"

YES!

This is a fantastic idea. Granted the fact that if we "save" the crowns we receive as a monthly stipend to purchase said DLC- this fact they will certainly use as a reason to not just unlock it after X months of continued subscription.

But who's going to save their crowns? I'm sure after you buy everything you want from the shop. But what about when they add more stuff, and then more stuff and so on and so forth. Greed, she's a powerful witch.

But a fantastic idea nonetheless. Continue to subscribe for X amount of months? AWESOME! Along with your 1500 crowns, you just unlocked <insert name of DLC> forever should you choose to cancel your premium subscription with us. Thank you for your patronage!

Again, not necessary, but it would be nice.

TehMagnus · February 2015

Rewards where allways **** anyways. NCSOFT might have many flaws but at least when they give you a loyalty rewards, it actually feels like one.

Knootewoot · February 2015

The new "loyalty" for subs is 1500 crowns per month you can spend in the shop to buy whatever you want. Non-subs don't get these crowns for free and have to buy these to get store items.

I think this is a good trade off. You still get 1500 crowns for subbing and thus monthly rewards.

Edit: Also i was under the impression new DLC (zones etc) where free for subs and available in crownstore for non-subs.

SantieClaws · February 2015

The new DLC is free for subs - as long as you are subbing. As things currently stand if you stop subbing then you lose all access to DLC. You start off in the game as if you had never subbed at all.

Smaxx · February 2015

And another thread full of people going crazy about something that might or might not happen. Keep calm and don't panic.

Let's wait and see. I could imagine them replacing the program but not being ready to talk about it yet. After all they'll definitely want people to subscribe even after the buy to play switch. Just think about it.

Threads left and right I read about how greedy ZOS is with the cash shop, then you think they would dodge around planning some nifty rewards for those subscribing to the game, getting them a constant income? Just think about it.

I'm pretty sure they've got plans up their sleeves and they'll somehow count/reward future subscription time in some way in addition to free crowns. They'll want people to subscribe. Period.

(Well, theoretically they'll want people to subscribe and buy stuff in the shop, but you'll get the idea.)

Govalon · February 2015

wenxue2222b16_ESO wrote: »

The new DLC is free for subs - as long as you are subbing. As things currently stand if you stop subbing then you lose all access to DLC. You start off in the game as if you had never subbed at all.

Well you will still have those 1500 crowns ypu got from each subbed month. You also received 10% more CP while being subbed and you retain those forever.

RazielSR · February 2015

Hello, Im the troll here. With joejudas,sindala, and others.
The horde of neveranines will help you all to understand this is a good move by zos. And a really respectful decision.

Razzak · February 2015

TehMagnus wrote: »

Rewards where allways **** anyways. NCSOFT might have many flaws but at least when they give you a loyalty rewards, it actually feels like one.

[...]

Smaxx wrote: »

And another thread full of people going crazy about something that might or might not happen. Keep calm and don't panic.

Let's wait and see. I could imagine them replacing the program but not being ready to talk about it yet. After all they'll definitely want people to subscribe even after the buy to play switch. Just think about it.

Threads left and right I read about how greedy ZOS is with the cash shop, then you think they would dodge around planning some nifty rewards for those subscribing to the game, getting them a constant income? Just think about it.

I'm pretty sure they've got plans up their sleeves and they'll somehow count/reward future subscription time in some way in addition to free crowns. They'll want people to subscribe. Period.

(Well, theoretically they'll want people to subscribe and buy stuff in the shop, but you'll get the idea.)

Unless they've already decided consoles will be their main focus. Meaning sub numbers will be very low.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]

Kragorn · February 2015

wenxue2222b16_ESO wrote: »

The new DLC is free for subs - as long as you are subbing. As things currently stand if you stop subbing then you lose all access to DLC. You start off in the game as if you had never subbed at all.

Which begs a question: if the newly announced Barbershop is a DLC (which the thread on that is expecting) and a 'subber' uses it, do they lose the changes if they stop being a 'Plus' member?

Razzak · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

wenxue2222b16_ESO wrote: »

The new DLC is free for subs - as long as you are subbing. As things currently stand if you stop subbing then you lose all access to DLC. You start off in the game as if you had never subbed at all.

Which begs a question: if the newly announced Barbershop is a DLC (which the thread on that is expecting) and a 'subber' uses it, do they lose the changes if they stop being a 'Plus' member?

Changes done in Barbershop are permanent, I imagine.