Why Champion System will Kill the game if it's implemented as is

Valencer · February 2015

Berinima wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Take a look at this:

Valencer wrote: »

0 points into The Warrior: 12495 health
12 points into The Warrior: 12956 health (+461)
24 points into The Warrior: 13177 health (+682)

From this thread:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149370/champion-system-stars-diminishing-returns

Now you can proceed to ignore it and keep on shouting THE END IS NIGH

Nobody is shouting this. Especially not in this thread (at least not considering its original purpose). What that means for a couple of hundred points we still don't know. Also this again is only a part of the sum. You get a bunch of stats and passives.

Fact is still, we don't know how big the power gap might be.

We... don't... know...

And again:

And *if* that *was* the case [that it is unbearable for new players] then this *would* be bad for the long term health of the game.

Alright, nobody is shouting the end is nigh. Instead somebody is saying the end might be nigh, and he'll be assuming the end is indeed nigh for the sake of discussion.

I mean, this is a thread called "Why the champion system will kill the game if its' implemented as is". How am I supposed to interpret that?

Vahrokh · February 2015

Valencer wrote: »

I mean, this is a thread called "Why the champion system will kill the game if its' implemented as is". How am I supposed to interpret that?

You and ZoS are supposed to sit down, read and understand the OP and learn in advance how it SHALL go in case the system will be delivered as is.

Lied · February 2015

Razzak wrote: »

I agree, any kind of difference would not be so dramatic, if the time to obtain CPs was not so drastically long. I can understand their desire to keep players playing, but I don't understand how they think years of playing for a part of CPs will keep anyone interested? It just feels like a huge and lengthy chore.
They already have time related system with researching, but that one is like a life of a fly compared to life of an elephant, which is CP system.

Personally, I think they have a workable idea with the CS, just maybe an issue with the initial scaling of it. Like if they reduced the time per CP and swapped around some of the stars to where like 12% crit and 80% stamina reduction after CC break were 10 star perks... those types of changes would go a long way to keeping what they're doing while adjusting it to meet player concerns.

It's a big win for them if they can get it squared away since they can just focus on seasonal gear for progression addicts after that.

Berinima · February 2015

Valencer wrote: »

I mean, this is a thread called "Why the champion system will kill the game if its' implemented as is". How am I supposed to interpret that?

You could interpret it like this: While the basic idea of the Champion System offers some benefits to the long term motivation of levelling your character, it will cause serious problems if it is implemented as it is on the PTS right now.

TehMagnus · February 2015

Berinima wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

I mean, this is a thread called "Why the champion system will kill the game if its' implemented as is". How am I supposed to interpret that?

You could interpret it like this: While the basic idea of the Champion System offers some benefits to the long term motivation of levelling your character, it will cause serious problems if it is implemented as it is on the PTS right now.

Which is more or less what I said in the conclusion.

Berinima · February 2015

Alphashado · February 2015

Interesting discussion. 3 of the same people instantly roasting anyone that tries to offer an opposing point of view. This isn't a discussion thread, it's a "Here is our opinion and screw you if you disagree because you are an idiot" thread.

People with opposing views could just as easily and applicably post a picture of that stupid beaver 10 times per page as if it gets a point across more effectively.

There is no debate about the most powerful passives, but they are all low in the constellation by design. The 75 pt passives are "OK", and 120 pt passives are basically fluff.

in my opinion, I only see two problems that can/should be adjusted.
1. Lower the rate at which you earn a CP by at least 1/2. 200XP required is much more reasonable.
2. Increase the diminishing returns for base attributes. As it stands right now, (based on what I've read. I haven't done the math personally) there will be a 55% difference once all CP is invested. That is too much of a disparity.

It's not the end of the freakin world. They can and probably will make adjustments.

And this is what I think about that stupid Beaver:

=

Valencer · February 2015

I understand what's being said and I still disagree with it. One of your core arguments seems to be that the tiered passives you can unlock are too strong. My response to that would be "we don't know".

The crit passives say 12%, but this might be an additive 12% extra crit chance or a multiplicative 12% of your current crit chance extra. Knowing the other passives in the CS, I'd expect the latter. I might be wrong, but we have no way to know.

The magicka return passive you mentioned is (I believe) a 20% chance to create a small pool which group members have to move into. It's not nearly as extreme as you're making it sound. Likewise, the health return on crits is a very low amount.

And even if any of them are too good, that will probably be clear very soon and they'll prompty rebalance them. The truth is that the majority of the passives in the CS are just fun little bonuses that don't make a huge difference

Given how little CP we have on the PTS to actually test this stuff, we just don't know.

I do appreciate your detailed and well-written OP, but I prefer thinking about all the things the CS can offer that the VR system never could. Keeps me sane and excited for 1.6.

I'm not going to write much more than this, that's for sure.

Berinima · February 2015

Lied wrote: »

Personally, I think they have a workable idea with the CS, just maybe an issue with the initial scaling of it. Like if they reduced the time per CP and swapped around some of the stars to where like 12% crit and 80% stamina reduction after CC break were 10 star perks... those types of changes would go a long way to keeping what they're doing while adjusting it to meet player concerns.

It's a big win for them if they can get it squared away since they can just focus on seasonal gear for progression addicts after that.

I agree. The idea behind the system isn't that bad after at all. But where the majority of all theory crafters that have done testing on the PTS also agrees is that the execution of the system is fundamentally flawed. If ZOS listens to feedback and tweaks it to a bearable power gap for new players it could work indeed. It still has additional problems like not having content do to quests, it does not reward every playstyle the same (PvP and raiding is still lacking of decent XP, crafting does not provide any XP at all) and trying to actually obtain CPs gets tedious very quick right now. How it is implemented on the PTS the system isn't motivating at all. It's long, it's steep and it's frustrating.

Berinima · February 2015

Valencer wrote: »

I understand what's being said and I still disagree with it. One of your core arguments seems to be that the tiered passives you can unlock are too strong. My response to that would be "we don't know".

The crit passives say 12%, but this might be an additive 12% extra crit chance or a multiplicative 12% of your current crit chance extra. Knowing the other passives in the CS, I'd expect the latter. I might be wrong, but we have no way to know.

The magicka return passive you mentioned is (I believe) a 20% chance to create a small pool which group members have to move into. It's not nearly as extreme as you're making it sound. Likewise, the health return on crits is a very low amount.

And even if any of them are too good, that will probably be clear very soon and they'll prompty rebalance them. The truth is that the majority of the passives in the CS are just fun little bonuses that don't make a huge difference

Given how little CP we have on the PTS to actually test this stuff, we just don't know.

I do appreciate your detailed and well-written OP, but I prefer thinking about all the things the CS can offer that the VR system never could. Keeps me sane and excited for 1.6.

I'm not going to write much more than this, that's for sure.

No, it's not *only* the passives. The passives are only one problem (maybe even a minor one). In addition, you have the effects of the stars (which give you the power growth of one passive on their own) and you have the gain of +health, +magicka and +stamina from the constellation itself. It has been extrapolated that with 180 points your resource pool grows for 55%. That is a huge power gap because it also scales the damage and healing of your skills. It's not one perk, it's the sum of it. Since you are using phrases like "I believe" I am assuming that you haven't done extensive research on the PTS or maybe not at all? The power increase from even our 70 initial points is very substantial. This is what we DO know. Keep in mind that a new player does not have these points. To a new player this is 70 to 280 hours of gameplay. During that time a veteran player will get another 70 points and this is still at a point where the diminishing returns are neglectable. This are facts that we DO know and they are not a matter of opinion.

Berinima · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

Interesting discussion. 3 of the same people instantly roasting anyone that tries to offer an opposing point of view. This isn't a discussion thread, it's a "Here is our opinion and screw you if you disagree because you are an idiot" thread.

Basic math is not a matter of opinion. People might have an opinion, but because math exists in reality the opinion is wrong.

Alphashado wrote: »

And this is what I think about that stupid Beaver:

Moar pictures please! ^^ Ok, seriously. I won't post beavers anymore. They are pretty adorable though!

Soulshine · February 2015

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

TehMagnus · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

Interesting discussion. 3 of the same people instantly roasting anyone that tries to offer an opposing point of view. This isn't a discussion thread, it's a "Here is our opinion and screw you if you disagree because you are an idiot" thread.

People with opposing views could just as easily and applicably post a picture of that stupid beaver 10 times per page as if it gets a point across more effectively.

There is no debate about the most powerful passives, but they are all low in the constellation by design. The 75 pt passives are "OK", and 120 pt passives are basically fluff.

in my opinion, I only see two problems that can/should be adjusted.
1. Lower the rate at which you earn a CP by at least 1/2. 200XP required is much more reasonable.
2. Increase the diminishing returns for base attributes. As it stands right now, (based on what I've read. I haven't done the math personally) there will be a 55% difference once all CP is invested. That is too much of a disparity.

It's not the end of the freakin world. They can and probably will make adjustments.

And this is what I think about that stupid Beaver:

=

Well the whole point of this thread is to say that current implementation with the rate at which CP are earned is not good and will cause major problems if it's left as is.

With xp gains being divided by 3 I agree that 200 - 150K XP would be more reasonable to gain CP and the whole purpose of thread like this is to make changes happen rather sooner than later, when it annoys people and when people have already rage quit the game.

As per the 72 and 120 passives being fluff, there's a couple of them that will make huge differences in PVE raiding and PVP. For solo questing and solo play or even dungeon dwelling, the whole CP is just fluff for that matter.

Valencer wrote: »

I understand what's being said and I still disagree with it. One of your core arguments seems to be that the tiered passives you can unlock are too strong. My response to that would be "we don't know".

Well you don't know maybe. I've been theory-crafting in this game for a long time and I do know when I see those numbers.

Valencer wrote: »

The crit passives say 12%, but this might be an additive 12% extra crit chance or a multiplicative 12% of your current crit chance extra. Knowing the other passives in the CS, I'd expect the latter. I might be wrong, but we have no way to know.

I'm pretty sure it's additive (will confirm in a couple of hours) and yes we have way to know since there are people in PTS with 140 cp pulling 30% more DPS than people with 70 CP.

Valencer wrote: »

The magicka return passive you mentioned is (I believe) a 20% chance to create a small pool which group members have to move into. It's not nearly as extreme as you're making it sound. Likewise, the health return on crits is a very low amount.

When stacking and AOEing or stacking & killing which is part of nearly any raiding strategy, it is extreme.

Valencer wrote: »

And even if any of them are too good, that will probably be clear very soon and they'll prompty rebalance them. The truth is that the majority of the passives in the CS are just fun little bonuses that don't make a huge difference

They aren't little bonuses, I think you don't know much about the game mechanics

When I look at those numbers and the time it takes to get a CP compared to the huge increase it gives especially at early ranks, I can assure you this is just like the difficulty wall and frustration people had before VR levels nerf when they would die if they tried to take onto 2 mobs while being unprepared.

Valencer wrote: »

I do appreciate your detailed and well-written OP, but I prefer thinking about all the things the CS can offer that the VR system never could. Keeps me sane and excited for 1.6.

I'm not going to write much more than this, that's for sure.

It has a lot to offer indeed, if it's done right. At the moment, it's sadly not.

TehMagnus · February 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

This is also very very good point

Berinima · February 2015

TehMagnus wrote: »

This is also very very good point

It is indeed. And it adds up to every problem that has already been discussed.

Valencer · February 2015

Berinima wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

I understand what's being said and I still disagree with it. One of your core arguments seems to be that the tiered passives you can unlock are too strong. My response to that would be "we don't know".

The crit passives say 12%, but this might be an additive 12% extra crit chance or a multiplicative 12% of your current crit chance extra. Knowing the other passives in the CS, I'd expect the latter. I might be wrong, but we have no way to know.

The magicka return passive you mentioned is (I believe) a 20% chance to create a small pool which group members have to move into. It's not nearly as extreme as you're making it sound. Likewise, the health return on crits is a very low amount.

And even if any of them are too good, that will probably be clear very soon and they'll prompty rebalance them. The truth is that the majority of the passives in the CS are just fun little bonuses that don't make a huge difference

Given how little CP we have on the PTS to actually test this stuff, we just don't know.

I do appreciate your detailed and well-written OP, but I prefer thinking about all the things the CS can offer that the VR system never could. Keeps me sane and excited for 1.6.

I'm not going to write much more than this, that's for sure.

No, it's not *only* the passives. The passives are only one problem (maybe even a minor one). In addition, you have the effects of the stars (which give you the power growth of one passive on their own) and you have the gain of +health, +magicka and +stamina from the constellation itself. It has been extrapolated that with 180 points your resource pool grows for 55%. That is a huge power gap because it also scales the damage and healing of your skills. It's not one perk, it's the sum of it. Since you are using phrases like "I believe" I am assuming that you haven't done extensive research on the PTS or maybe not at all? The power increase from even our 70 initial points is very substantial. This is what we DO know. Keep in mind that a new player does not have these points. To a new player this is 70 to 280 hours of gameplay. During that time a veteran player will get another 70 points and this is still at a point where the diminishing returns are neglectable. This are facts that we DO know and they are not a matter of opinion.

The 55% health increase was an extrapolation done by @Spottswoode based on data I provided earlier in the discussion.

He calculated the first 12 points into the warrior group of constellations gave a 3.7% increase in health. The next 12 points about half of that.

For the sake of extrapolation and discussion, he made the assumption that the "The Warrior" was a perk that could possibly have 14 other equivalent perks giving an equal health increase, each with their own diminishing return calculations. 15 perks that would each give a 3.7% health increase for the initial 12 points invested into them (hence, 15*12 = 180 CP and 15*3.7 =~ 55.5% ).

However, he probably hadn't yet checked the PTS. 'The Warrior' is a general group of constellations and any points put into this group count towards the overall health increase of 'The Warrior' group. So, all the points into it count towards one diminishing return calculation.

Spottswoode calculated that the first 12 points gave a 3.7% increase in health and the next 12 points gave another 1.8% increase in health to a total of 5.5%.

Assuming it halves every 12 points (this is a guess and probably not entirely accurate), extrapolating that health increase means:

12 points: 3.7% (+3.7%)
24 points: 5.5% (+1.8%)
36 points: 6.4% (+0.9%)
48 points: 6.85% (+0.45%)
60 points: 7.075% (+0.225%)
72 points: 7.1875% (+0.1125%)
84 points: 7.2437,5% (+0.05625%)

It'll never become bigger than an overall 7.4% health increase. More interesting is the fact that the initial 12 points already provide more than half of the maximum health increase that could possibly be achieved.

Now, this is assuming every 12 points the health increase is cut in half. Given my initial data, this isn't entirely the sweet spot, so it might be different. What we do know is it won't ever go near 55%. Not even close.

Rescorla_ESO · February 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

I can't confirm for myself because haven't been able to get onto PTS yet due to the launcher erroring out with the "webgetrequest" error nonstop. Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought account-wide CPs were not supposed to become available to your alt characters until you attained VR1 (or level 50 in the future if VR ranks are removed). If that is the case then granting lowbie characters access to them might be a bug. If lowbie characters having access to your accounts CPs is working as designed then I fully agree with you.

Soulshine · February 2015

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

I can't confirm for myself because haven't been able to get onto PTS yet due to the launcher erroring out with the "webgetrequest" error nonstop. Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought account-wide CPs were not supposed to become available to your alt characters until you attained VR1 (or level 50 in the future if VR ranks are removed). If that is the case then granting lowbie characters access to them might be a bug. If lowbie characters having access to your accounts CPs is working as designed then I fully agree with you.

I have vr14s on my account that is why my lowbie alts got 70cps. WAI

Alphashado · February 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

I can't confirm for myself because haven't been able to get onto PTS yet due to the launcher erroring out with the "webgetrequest" error nonstop. Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought account-wide CPs were not supposed to become available to your alt characters until you attained VR1 (or level 50 in the future if VR ranks are removed). If that is the case then granting lowbie characters access to them might be a bug. If lowbie characters having access to your accounts CPs is working as designed then I fully agree with you.

I have vr14s on my account that is why my lowbie alts got 70cps. WAI

I have considered this, but it's really no different than someone crafting a full set of purple Seducer gear for their lvl 10 mage.

Soulshine · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

I can't confirm for myself because haven't been able to get onto PTS yet due to the launcher erroring out with the "webgetrequest" error nonstop. Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought account-wide CPs were not supposed to become available to your alt characters until you attained VR1 (or level 50 in the future if VR ranks are removed). If that is the case then granting lowbie characters access to them might be a bug. If lowbie characters having access to your accounts CPs is working as designed then I fully agree with you.

I have vr14s on my account that is why my lowbie alts got 70cps. WAI

I have considered this, but it's really no different than someone crafting a full set of purple Seducer gear for their lvl 10 mage.

Take that further please - a level ten in crafted purple gear, and add to it 70CPs then tell me it's the same. NOT even close.

Valencer · February 2015

The bonuses are all percentage based though. So they scale off your character's power. And all the damage bonuses are small ones like 10% more elemental damage (assuming you put all available CP into those specific stars right now).

There's no way you go from having a challenging fight to one-shotting everything.

Soulshine · February 2015

Valencer wrote: »

The bonuses are all percentage based though. So they scale off your character's power. And all the damage bonuses are small ones like 10% more elemental damage (assuming you put all available CP into those specific stars right now).

There's no way you go from having a challenging fight to one-shotting everything.

Test if for yourself please. It is easily seen. As is, it is a huge difference in performance between normal lowbies and ones with CPs applied. Not much more to say.

Valencer · February 2015

If 10% (more like 7%, with the initial CP bonus we get) more [elemental/physical/magic] damage done lets you one-shot things that were previously challenging fights, then it's a bug.

I'll jump on my lvl 40 sorcerer later if you insist it is happening.

Soulshine · February 2015

Valencer wrote: »

If 10% (more like 7%, with the initial CP bonus we get) more [elemental/physical/magic] damage done lets you one-shot things that were previously challenging fights, then it's a bug.

I'll jump on my lvl 40 sorcerer later if you insist it is happening.

This is best seen on <lvl20 characters not on ones which are mostly already specced out and approaching the end of the 1-50 range, but do go on and see how that looks at 40. The issue remains that totally new players will be facing this issue and I do not think it a good one.

Alphashado · February 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

I can't confirm for myself because haven't been able to get onto PTS yet due to the launcher erroring out with the "webgetrequest" error nonstop. Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought account-wide CPs were not supposed to become available to your alt characters until you attained VR1 (or level 50 in the future if VR ranks are removed). If that is the case then granting lowbie characters access to them might be a bug. If lowbie characters having access to your accounts CPs is working as designed then I fully agree with you.

I have vr14s on my account that is why my lowbie alts got 70cps. WAI

I have considered this, but it's really no different than someone crafting a full set of purple Seducer gear for their lvl 10 mage.

Take that further please - a level ten in crafted purple gear, and add to it 70CPs then tell me it's the same. NOT even close.

At the end of the day, why does it matter? The point I was making is that right now on 1.5, a vet player can easily make his/her alts godlike in relation to low level zones. So adding a few CP won't matter much because the disparity already exists. I mean, what is your concern exactly that lvl 30 characters will be soloing Dolmen and Public Dungeons? I already do this with my alts.

Soulshine · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

I can't confirm for myself because haven't been able to get onto PTS yet due to the launcher erroring out with the "webgetrequest" error nonstop. Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought account-wide CPs were not supposed to become available to your alt characters until you attained VR1 (or level 50 in the future if VR ranks are removed). If that is the case then granting lowbie characters access to them might be a bug. If lowbie characters having access to your accounts CPs is working as designed then I fully agree with you.

I have vr14s on my account that is why my lowbie alts got 70cps. WAI

I have considered this, but it's really no different than someone crafting a full set of purple Seducer gear for their lvl 10 mage.

Take that further please - a level ten in crafted purple gear, and add to it 70CPs then tell me it's the same. NOT even close.

At the end of the day, why does it matter? The point I was making is that right now on 1.5, a vet player can easily make his/her alts godlike in relation to low level zones. So adding a few CP won't matter much because the disparity already exists. I mean, what is your concern exactly that lvl 30 characters will be soloing Dolmen and Public Dungeons? I already do this with my alts.

It matters specifically because of the already present divide and because we were told that the CP system was to be a means by which new players would not be so far divided from vets already in the game. This is not the case. As has already been pointed out by many comments around the boards, it clearly separates them even further than before.

If you have no issues whatever with the overall game presenting this kind of picture to a new player, cool for you. I do not feel the same.

Valencer · February 2015

TehMagnus wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

The crit passives say 12%, but this might be an additive 12% extra crit chance or a multiplicative 12% of your current crit chance extra. Knowing the other passives in the CS, I'd expect the latter. I might be wrong, but we have no way to know.

I'm pretty sure it's additive (will confirm in a couple of hours) and yes we have way to know since there are people in PTS with 140 cp pulling 30% more DPS than people with 70 CP.

If you've been able to earn additional CP to test the passive, I'd love to know.
Additive seems very excessive. Would give any character a base 22% crit chance (up from 10%).

Alphashado · February 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

I can't confirm for myself because haven't been able to get onto PTS yet due to the launcher erroring out with the "webgetrequest" error nonstop. Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought account-wide CPs were not supposed to become available to your alt characters until you attained VR1 (or level 50 in the future if VR ranks are removed). If that is the case then granting lowbie characters access to them might be a bug. If lowbie characters having access to your accounts CPs is working as designed then I fully agree with you.

I have vr14s on my account that is why my lowbie alts got 70cps. WAI

I have considered this, but it's really no different than someone crafting a full set of purple Seducer gear for their lvl 10 mage.

Take that further please - a level ten in crafted purple gear, and add to it 70CPs then tell me it's the same. NOT even close.

At the end of the day, why does it matter? The point I was making is that right now on 1.5, a vet player can easily make his/her alts godlike in relation to low level zones. So adding a few CP won't matter much because the disparity already exists. I mean, what is your concern exactly that lvl 30 characters will be soloing Dolmen and Public Dungeons? I already do this with my alts.

It matters specifically because of the already present divide and because we were told that the CP system was to be a means by which new players would not be so far divided from vets already in the game. This is not the case. As has already been pointed out by many comments around the boards, it clearly separates them even further than before.

If you have no issues whatever with the overall game presenting this kind of picture to a new player, cool for you. I do not feel the same.

That's all fine. I'm saying the disparity is already there. Do you have any idea how much more powerful a lvl 10 character is when he is wearing a full set of purple/gold set bonus gear? It's kinda ridiculous actually. What you are saying is nothing new. If you are that upset about it, then you might as well create a thread asking ZoS to prevent people from gearing their lowbies in uber powerful godlike gear sets. It's nothing new is the point I am making. I do it myself to help me level my alts faster.

Soulshine · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

I can't confirm for myself because haven't been able to get onto PTS yet due to the launcher erroring out with the "webgetrequest" error nonstop. Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought account-wide CPs were not supposed to become available to your alt characters until you attained VR1 (or level 50 in the future if VR ranks are removed). If that is the case then granting lowbie characters access to them might be a bug. If lowbie characters having access to your accounts CPs is working as designed then I fully agree with you.

I have vr14s on my account that is why my lowbie alts got 70cps. WAI

I have considered this, but it's really no different than someone crafting a full set of purple Seducer gear for their lvl 10 mage.

Take that further please - a level ten in crafted purple gear, and add to it 70CPs then tell me it's the same. NOT even close.

At the end of the day, why does it matter? The point I was making is that right now on 1.5, a vet player can easily make his/her alts godlike in relation to low level zones. So adding a few CP won't matter much because the disparity already exists. I mean, what is your concern exactly that lvl 30 characters will be soloing Dolmen and Public Dungeons? I already do this with my alts.

It matters specifically because of the already present divide and because we were told that the CP system was to be a means by which new players would not be so far divided from vets already in the game. This is not the case. As has already been pointed out by many comments around the boards, it clearly separates them even further than before.

If you have no issues whatever with the overall game presenting this kind of picture to a new player, cool for you. I do not feel the same.

That's all fine. I'm saying the disparity is already there. Do you have any idea how much more powerful a lvl 10 character is when he is wearing a full set of purple/gold set bonus gear? It's kinda ridiculous actually. What you are saying is nothing new. If you are that upset about it, then you might as well create a thread asking ZoS to prevent people from gearing their lowbies in uber powerful godlike gear sets. It's nothing new is the point I am making. I do it myself to help me level my alts faster.

I got your point. Yes, the imbalance is not new. My point is that the system is being promoted as an long term "equalizer" to solve this problem when it in fact does not, and even worse, it just extends the problem even more right from the starting gate beyond what is already at work. Again, if you don't have an issue with it, cool for you. I do not feel the same. I do not look at it only for how it affects me and my own alts, but rather the long term of the community of the game.

DanielMaxwell · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

The one thing I find curious in all this is that with the exeception a few people I have seen post about this as I have in PTS forum, no one seems too concerned about the fact that the way in which CPs work atm, it's your lowbie chars in PvE with a vet on the account that are really ridiculous. Does a level 5 char need 12% crit?? No one seems to think this is an issue focused as everyone is on the end game translation of our vr14 xp into this system, but this is another reason why I find it flawed on top of the other things I have noticed.

I also realize it is an intensely unpopular view but I have always thought and said that making the CP pool account wide was not a good idea and this is exactly why, since it is also another means by which totally new players get hammered by vets.

Imagine a new player who is attempting to complete the starting levels as we all did and then witnessing a "vet in disguise" (for lack of a better analogy...) just totally steamrolling the landscape even when they are each at the same level. I should think it would leave the new player feeling at best puzzled as to why they cannot perform on the same level as the "vet-lowbie," and very likely will lead to more QQ about the game "not being fair."

In other words, with this system vet players can dominate every level of the game, not just the end game, since the more points they earn they can keep funneling them to their lowerst characters coming up. How is that balanced play?

When testing all my copied char over on PTS and I applied 70CPs to my lowest levels as well as my vr14s, and the lowbies were practically one shotting everything. All the time. Total snoozefest. How is that an incentive for "replayability of the game" is beyond me let alone the above.

Anyway, it is just an issue that I see directly impacting the community of the game in the long term which I think ZoS did not consider and which many players are overlooking.

I can't confirm for myself because haven't been able to get onto PTS yet due to the launcher erroring out with the "webgetrequest" error nonstop. Correct me If I'm wrong but I thought account-wide CPs were not supposed to become available to your alt characters until you attained VR1 (or level 50 in the future if VR ranks are removed). If that is the case then granting lowbie characters access to them might be a bug. If lowbie characters having access to your accounts CPs is working as designed then I fully agree with you.

I have vr14s on my account that is why my lowbie alts got 70cps. WAI

I have considered this, but it's really no different than someone crafting a full set of purple Seducer gear for their lvl 10 mage.

Take that further please - a level ten in crafted purple gear, and add to it 70CPs then tell me it's the same. NOT even close.

At the end of the day, why does it matter? The point I was making is that right now on 1.5, a vet player can easily make his/her alts godlike in relation to low level zones. So adding a few CP won't matter much because the disparity already exists. I mean, what is your concern exactly that lvl 30 characters will be soloing Dolmen and Public Dungeons? I already do this with my alts.

It matters specifically because of the already present divide and because we were told that the CP system was to be a means by which new players would not be so far divided from vets already in the game. This is not the case. As has already been pointed out by many comments around the boards, it clearly separates them even further than before.

If you have no issues whatever with the overall game presenting this kind of picture to a new player, cool for you. I do not feel the same.

That's all fine. I'm saying the disparity is already there. Do you have any idea how much more powerful a lvl 10 character is when he is wearing a full set of purple/gold set bonus gear? It's kinda ridiculous actually. What you are saying is nothing new. If you are that upset about it, then you might as well create a thread asking ZoS to prevent people from gearing their lowbies in uber powerful godlike gear sets. It's nothing new is the point I am making. I do it myself to help me level my alts faster.

the difference in gear can be made up if the new player is able to get the same quality gear from a veteran player(you know make some friends or already know a veteran player) , the difference in character power that comes from CP's can not be made up , it will be there until the new player maxes out the champion system .