Why Champion System will Kill the game if it's implemented as is
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dietlime✭✭✭✭I will not read your posts if you have to bold the first line of each paragraph arbitrarily for emphasis.
You should practice more concisely communicating. This longwinded OP offers no interesting information. It's just a useless rambling tirade and an opinion piece at most. There is no insightful analysis here at all.4 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
But in that case scrapping VR achieves nothing .. if VR2 simply changed to 51 that would be all that's needed.By the way, having CP doesn't exclude adding levels that are not VR levels
they never said level 50 would be a final unmovable cap (and I hope it isn't).
It begs the question what 'VR' is! If it's a normal vertical progression system what was the fuss all about that made ZOS decide to ditch it? If they remove VR2+ and make it 51, 52, 53, nothing of substance changes, a lot of heat would have been generated and umpteen months of content development lost to achieve no discernible change.
It boils down to the fatal flaw in the initial design of the game. In it's current state, there is a massive illusion of completion at lvl 50 when you have beaten Molag Bal. Then you realize you have actually only completed about 1/4 of the game. It all boils down to perception. Perception is everything. If they could somehow tie the end of the story into either VR 14 or a certain CP number, then it would feel like normal progression. But they can't really do that because there is no legit reason why your character would want to represent/complete quests for both of the factions he/she is at war with.
As it stands right now, everything between V1 and V14 just feels like an empty, pointless grind.
So the idea was to eliminate Vet levels and essentially give people the feel of being "closer" to end game when the story is over and supply the CS so that there would still be a form and feel of progression.
If they were to ditch Vet ranks and reduce the amount of XP needed to gain CPs, then this entire situation would be completely different. But again that would/will be a huge conversion and people will rage about that when/if it happens.
At the end of the day the entire VR system and design is fatally flawed and I'm not sure how/if they can ever really fix it.
That being said, the CS isn't going to kill the game anymore than the current VR system already is. Especially considering this is only phase 3 of a 4 phase conversion. If they just reduce the amount of XP needed for a CP, that would go a long ways towards calming alot of people down. And that I agree with.
Edited by Alphashado on February 4, 2015 3:49PM0 -
dietlime✭✭✭✭We're assuming those later CP points are obtainable in the status quo at all. Do CP points not increase in cost after each one?
My assumption was that this would level the playing field by evenly gearing people (instead of locking 2/3 of the playerbase out over not being VR12-14) and those nodes would be unreachable until content with higher XP rewards was implemented.
If they do release new content with much higher XP rewards, this entire thread and all the thousands of words you've written per post are trash because those CP nodes will no longer be difficult to obtain.Edited by dietlime on February 4, 2015 3:48PM1 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
But in that case scrapping VR achieves nothing .. if VR2 simply changed to 51 that would be all that's needed.By the way, having CP doesn't exclude adding levels that are not VR levels they never said level 50 would be a final unmovable cap (and I hope it isn't).
It begs the question what 'VR' is! If it's a normal vertical progression system what was the fuss all about that made ZOS decide to ditch it? If they remove VR2+ and make it 51, 52, 53, nothing of substance changes, a lot of heat would have been generated and umpteen months of content development lost to achieve no discernible change.
VR1 was like level 60 more or less since you had to do a whole zone that usually gave you 10 levels while leveling to earn 1 veteran rank.
VR 14 was like level 190 which is why adds where on godlike mode at the beginning of the VR system. 190 levels for a young game is way too much which is why many people got depressed so quickly and I bet ZOS didn't expect people to be at max level so quickly since they didn't have any end game content ready, just like they prolly don't expect people to get too much ahead with the Champion System.
If you add a huge zone of solo content with a continuation to the main story and 5 or 10 levels that can be obtained with a DECENT amount of XP (aka not 5 million like it was at some point), then there is no problem and nobody complains about the vertical progression because it's not a 85° climb but a 30° one.
CS as implemented is just like VR but worse since it's a 89,99° climb...0 -
Berinima✭✭✭
They won't. The whole idea around VR and CS is not giving people content or meaningful progression. Especially the CS is designed around the idea of going B2P and stretching out the already existing content to eternity. They have exactly two DLCs in the pipeline for this year and this is what people will get. Imperial City and a new zone. In addition lots of pets, mounts and costumes. These things are way more cost efficient than actually playable content and they earn more or less the equal amount of money.Alphashado wrote: »At the end of the day the entire VR system and design is fatally flawed and I'm not sure how/if they can ever really fix it.
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TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I will not read your posts if you have to bold the first line of each paragraph arbitrarily for emphasis.
You should practice more concisely communicating. This longwinded OP offers no interesting information. It's just a useless rambling tirade and an opinion piece at most. There is no insightful analysis here at all.
I'm not even gonna bother answering to your free flame, you clearly haven't read my post nor the bolded parts if you feel like this nor have you tested PTS.
The TLDR exists for people like you btw.Edited by TehMagnus on February 4, 2015 4:03PM1 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭We're assuming those later CP points are obtainable in the status quo at all. Do CP points not increase in cost after each one?
They cost the same and if you read the whole post, it doesn't matter how fast you gain them, what matters is that it takes a long time to gain them and people who are behind will always be behind.Edited by TehMagnus on February 4, 2015 4:03PM0 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Good point, I overlooked that, but that simply amplifies my confusion .. remove VR levels and what's left, 10 zones in the Cadwell's quest chain without any rational level difference so it's one homogenous grind without any real progression.fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
But in that case scrapping VR achieves nothing .. if VR2 simply changed to 51 that would be all that's needed.By the way, having CP doesn't exclude adding levels that are not VR levels they never said level 50 would be a final unmovable cap (and I hope it isn't).
It begs the question what 'VR' is! If it's a normal vertical progression system what was the fuss all about that made ZOS decide to ditch it? If they remove VR2+ and make it 51, 52, 53, nothing of substance changes, a lot of heat would have been generated and umpteen months of content development lost to achieve no discernible change.
VR1 was like level 60 more or less since you had to do a whole zone that usually gave you 10 levels while leveling to earn 1 veteran rank.
Seems .. pointless.
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Berinima✭✭✭
The thing is, they won't. You will get a new zone by the end of this year and that will probably contain the same amount of content as Craglorn provided (meaning a handful of CPs that could be also obtained by grinding more or less in the same time). In addition, there will be Imperial City which might or might not provide a little help for your CP gain in terms of additional daylies. That's it. CP gain is supposed to be slow because it's designed around the fact they can't deliver enough content in the first place.If they do release new content with much higher XP rewards, this entire thread and all the thousands of words you've written per post are trash because those CP nodes will no longer be difficult to obtain.
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TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
Good point, I overlooked that, but that simply amplifies my confusion .. remove VR levels and what's left, 10 zones in the Cadwell's quest chain without any rational level difference so it's one homogenous grind without any real progression.fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
But in that case scrapping VR achieves nothing .. if VR2 simply changed to 51 that would be all that's needed.By the way, having CP doesn't exclude adding levels that are not VR levels they never said level 50 would be a final unmovable cap (and I hope it isn't).
It begs the question what 'VR' is! If it's a normal vertical progression system what was the fuss all about that made ZOS decide to ditch it? If they remove VR2+ and make it 51, 52, 53, nothing of substance changes, a lot of heat would have been generated and umpteen months of content development lost to achieve no discernible change.
VR1 was like level 60 more or less since you had to do a whole zone that usually gave you 10 levels while leveling to earn 1 veteran rank.
Seems .. pointless.
Sucks that for once that we agree it's on a sad observation
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Rescorla_ESO✭✭✭✭Rescorla_ESO wrote: »Champion system is only a grind if you make it into one. For those players that will pretty much ignore it and just play normally instead of grinding, they will thanks to enlightenment mechanic accumulate CP points at a rate that will allow them to close the gap rapidly thanks to the diminishing returns on the champion abilities.
All that is fine, till they want to play PVP and they get owned by someone dealing damage so high they have never seen before, or till they want to do a trial and someone says: Sorry, you need 800 CP to come and this and that passive.
Assuming veteran ranks are removed from the game and the level cap becomes 50, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that future endgame PVE content (raids, trials) and future best in slot gear will be gated by having a minimum CP value. The difficulty of the endgame player content should be balanced against what the player base is currently capable of defeating. In other words, for now that means to do DSA and SO the difficulty is designed for VR 14 characters. Since VR14 characters will get 70CP when 1.6 goes live, safe to assume DSA and SO will be designed for characters with 70 CP.
Fast forward to summer 2015 and a patch that adds a new endgame trial or raid to the game. This new content is designed for players who have already beaten DSA and SO. It is not designed for someone who just turned 50. Since it will be harder than DSA and SO, ZOS might say something to the effect the difficulty of this new content is balanced around characters having 100 CPs. They could also make all the gear that drops from this new endgame content require at least 100 CPs in order to equip.
Now whether they adopt something like this or not remains to be seen. My prediction is that IF ZOS wants to emulate how endgame progression raiding is designed in other MMOs they will adopt something similar to this.
According to what ZOS said, gear should end up being seasonal, obtainable by clearing content and then new better gear would be released and the previous season gear would be easier to obtain for the people who couldn't obtain it before.
Following that system, gear will be level 50 and won't require CPs somewhere, it just won't be easy to obtain at first.
Then again in order to do that, you need to push out content >_<.
@TehMagnus
Your reply got me to thinking more about the future of this game and how the B2P/Crown store is going to work.
First off, as a long time MMO vet going back to EQ1 the concept of making endgame, best in slot PVE gear seasonal is something Ive never heard of. I know WoW has seasonal PVP gear that they make purchaseable in game when a new PVP season starts but they don't do that for endgame PVE raid gear.
Let me insert here that my enjoyment of endgame PVE raiding/trials is completely based on the sense of accomplishment of defeating a tough raid boss with my friends/guildmates. I don't really care much about the loot reward since I just view loot as a means to achieve the end. The more guildmates with better loot the easier it is for us to progress (the key word) through tougher end game content.
ZOS had made some questionable design decisions with this game that as a long time MMO vet has me scratching my head trying to figure out why they made the decision they made. If ZOS makes DSA and SO end game PVE gear seasonable gear that players who HAVE NOT completed that content can purchase from a vendor then I think it will be a colossal mistake.
The only players who should have DSA/SO gear should be those players who have defeated that content. If your guild can't beat DSA/SO by the time new endgame raids/trials are added in the future, then gain enough CPs to improve your character to the point your DPS, healing and tanking abilities are high enough to defeat DSA/SO bosses. That PVE content model worked extremely well for EQ1 over the years.
I myself was never in a hardcore progression raiding guild. I was always in a casual/social guild. My guild was not able to defeat vanilla EQ1 raid content until the second expansion came out. I was not able to complete my class epic weapon quest (2nd expansion content) until the 5th expansion was released. When I was finally able to beat that content, it still gave me a major sense of accomplishment because it was something my guild had been trying to do for a long time.
With that all out of the way, if ZOS makes endgame PVE gear seasonal, that implies you will be able to purchase it from a vendor at some point, probably as soon as the DSA/SO gear becomes obsolete due to the release of a newer trial/raid. If they sell it for gold from a vendor, probably safe to assume you will be able to buy it for Crowns from the cash shop.
Better solution: balance difficulty of new PVE trial/raid content assuming players have DSA/SO quality gear and "X" number of CP points. If players do not meet the minimum requirements then they fail. As they accumulate more and more CPs the easier DSA/SO will become. This may cause them to be permanently behind the hardcore raiding guilds like Hodor, but that is perfectly fine when it comes to MMOs, where equality of opportunity should matter more than equality of the outcome.0 -
Razzak✭✭✭✭✭There are lots of theory crafting for and against this, current CP implementation. It would be really nice if we could get some official comment on who, if anyone, is closer to how it will work with time.
Was anyone in this thread even close to how CP will evolve and how it will impact players, or were we all miles away in our predictions?0 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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I agree, ZOS utter refusal to talk about what happens when VR goes is not only a huge insult to those still playing but also clearly had some impact on the numbers leaving.There are lots of theory crafting for and against this, current CP implementation. It would be really nice if we could get some official comment on who, if anyone, is closer to how it will work with time.
This whole discussion is taking place in a vacuum, no player has any idea of the game environment in which CPs will be earned and used, so given anything is possible the forums are full of idel speculation.
Take a look at the PTS forum and compare it so similar forums for WOW, FFXIV (2 I play ATM) and others, there is nigh on ZERO 'discussion' with ZOS developers even in THAT forum .. and the topic of post-VR is crucial to any rational debate of how good or bad the Champion System is, and surely that's the very kind of debate the PTS is supposed to generate!
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TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well first impressions on PTS at the moment are that the guys who have used the bug to get 140 CP instead of 70 CP have a noticeable power increase (which is normal according to my initial feeling about the system since they have access to the first step of passives).
As I've said before, I don't want to talk about nerfs & character strenght before testing everything right, this is a new game we're playing after all, but the numbers don't lie and the DPS difference is noticeable on such low levels. 70 CP is ~ to 12 days of pure CP farming. At an average of 1 CP a night it's ~2 months of game play for the most dedicated players and 3 to 4+ months for the rest of the non hardcore dedicated players.
When you compare the difference in VR levels, the difference of strenght is like 70CP is VR4-5 and 140 CP looks like VR12-13 (numbers might change when the correct high DPS builds are found etc, but the gap looks like that).0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I will not read your posts if you have to bold the first line of each paragraph arbitrarily for emphasis.
You should practice more concisely communicating. This longwinded OP offers no interesting information. It's just a useless rambling tirade and an opinion piece at most. There is no insightful analysis here at all.
I suggest you should practice on Twitter reading. Those messages are more compatible with your reading taste.Edited by Vahrokh on February 5, 2015 9:27AMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO2 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Vertical Progression? thats just what i wanted.
Super Casual OP detected.
Yeah you got it right. The OP is "just" one of the best players in the top world guild and his builds and gear setups are posted on websites for others to learn.
When he plays in my guild and we do a trial, it's like being in 18.
What could he know, right?
Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO2 -
Berinima✭✭✭
Can you still do that? I'd like to try that out (I mean really, for testing reasons). If not, do you have some numbers DPS wise?Well first impressions on PTS at the moment are that the guys who have used the bug to get 140 CP instead of 70 CP have a noticeable power increase (which is normal according to my initial feeling about the system since they have access to the first step of passives).0 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
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Can you still do that? I'd like to try that out (I mean really, for testing reasons). If not, do you have some numbers DPS wise?Well first impressions on PTS at the moment are that the guys who have used the bug to get 140 CP instead of 70 CP have a noticeable power increase (which is normal according to my initial feeling about the system since they have access to the first step of passives).
Doesn't work if you've allready loged in to the pts once before.
As per the numbers, the difference is of about 4-5k DPS. Granted people werent using the exact same sets but skills/roation where the same. Bear in mind that 140 points means more points in stamina cost reduction, more points in base damage, 12% more base crit which means you can foccus armor on stamina/weapon damage...Edited by TehMagnus on February 5, 2015 12:34PM0 -
Berinima✭✭✭
That's a shame. But thanks anyway!Doesn't work if you've allready loged in to the pts once before.
Oh yeah, I know. You can read all my posts. I personally find the system very problematic (not to say utterly disgusting).As per the numbers, the difference is of about 4-5k DPS. Granted people werent using the exact same sets but skills/roation where the same. Bear in mind that 140 points means more points in stamina cost reduction, more points in base damage, 12% more base crit which means you can foccus armor on stamina/weapon damage...
If I read posts like that... I mean just by looking at the system for one second you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that even with the initial 70 points (that a new player does not have) you get perks that accumulate to a degree where it is like wearing four additional item sets at once. The diminishing returns don't even matter because there are so many useful stars for pretty much every role and you can just move to another one if you feel that the gain for one point is not enough. Reading posts like that feels more like...fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »This whole discussion is taking place in a vacuum, no player has any idea of the game environment in which CPs will be earned and used, so given anything is possible the forums are full of idel speculation.
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Lied✭✭✭Doesn't work if you've allready loged in to the pts once before.
As per the numbers, the difference is of about 4-5k DPS. Granted people werent using the exact same sets but skills/roation where the same. Bear in mind that 140 points means more points in stamina cost reduction, more points in base damage, 12% more base crit which means you can foccus armor on stamina/weapon damage...
Just out of curiosity, 5k DPS out of how much total?
Any math beats my no-math conjecture, but it does seem like this would be somewhat expected at the lower levels of the CS. Assuming everything was going as advertised, the difference between 0CP vs. 70CP or 25CP vs. 140CP would be much more significant than say 400CP vs. 1600CP, right? When you're talking about DPS specifically, none of the 120 stars compare to the 12% crit you get [relatively] early on, and the other modifiers will actually suffer from "loldiminishingreturns", no?
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TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Doesn't work if you've allready loged in to the pts once before.
As per the numbers, the difference is of about 4-5k DPS. Granted people werent using the exact same sets but skills/roation where the same. Bear in mind that 140 points means more points in stamina cost reduction, more points in base damage, 12% more base crit which means you can foccus armor on stamina/weapon damage...
Just out of curiosity, 5k DPS out of how much total?
Any math beats my no-math conjecture, but it does seem like this would be somewhat expected at the lower levels of the CS. Assuming everything was going as advertised, the difference between 0CP vs. 70CP or 25CP vs. 140CP would be much more significant than say 400CP vs. 1600CP, right? When you're talking about DPS specifically, none of the 120 stars compare to the 12% crit you get [relatively] early on, and the other modifiers will actually suffer from "loldiminishingreturns", no?
Out of 13k-15k for people with 140CP + emperor for 15k vs people pulling 8 - 10k. with 70CP no emperor.
Yes the difference is much more significant at early levels and I'd wager the diminishing returns will begin to be felt after ~500 to 600 points (I'll do the math this weekend). the problem is that even if it's 500 points, this would mean that someone with 500 points is UBERMONSTEROP compared to a guy with 70 CP and at current rate it would take the guy with 70 CP about 4 years to catch up on the guy with 500 points.
This means we're not likely to see any diminishing returns any time soon and until then, every single point will count and the more you farm, the more of an advantage you'll have on other players. Which is enough to make anyone not want to come into this game unless he begins at the beginning of the system and is also enough to make the most casual people leave along the way (like when Black Desert comes out in about 1 year 8) ) as they see the gap increasing between top players.0 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Clearly what I was saying went right over your head ... I said the GAME ENVIRONMENT.
If I read posts like that... I mean just by looking at the system for one second you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that even with the initial 70 points (that a new player does not have) you get perks that accumulate to a degree where it is like wearing four additional item sets at once. The diminishing returns don't even matter because there are so many useful stars for pretty much every role and you can just move to another one if you feel that the gain for one point is not enough. Reading posts like that feels more like...fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »This whole discussion is taking place in a vacuum, no player has any idea of the game environment in which CPs will be earned and used, so given anything is possible the forums are full of idel speculation.
The details of what passives CS buys you or the number you'll get are irrelevant until we know what CONTENT the game will be presenting us with that make CP matter.
Cadwell's Silver/Gold is VR content, remove VR and that content is nothing like what it was before, if it sill exists. Until we know what the game will BE post-VR then discussing CPs ad nauseum is an exercise in futility .. as is the endless bickering about stat nerfs.
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TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
Clearly what I was saying went right over your head ... I said the GAME ENVIRONMENT.
If I read posts like that... I mean just by looking at the system for one second you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that even with the initial 70 points (that a new player does not have) you get perks that accumulate to a degree where it is like wearing four additional item sets at once. The diminishing returns don't even matter because there are so many useful stars for pretty much every role and you can just move to another one if you feel that the gain for one point is not enough. Reading posts like that feels more like...fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »This whole discussion is taking place in a vacuum, no player has any idea of the game environment in which CPs will be earned and used, so given anything is possible the forums are full of idel speculation.
The details of what passives CS buys you or the number you'll get are irrelevant until we know what CONTENT the game will be presenting us with that make CP matter.
Cadwell's Silver/Gold is VR content, remove VR and that content is nothing like what it was before, if it sill exists. Until we know what the game will BE post-VR then discussing CPs ad nauseum is an exercise in futility .. as is the endless bickering about stat nerfs.
Doesn't matter what the influence of CP vs content is if you can see what the influence of CP vs player stats does and how big the gap between players is as a result.Edited by TehMagnus on February 5, 2015 1:52PM1 -
Berinima✭✭✭
The top builds I know can run around 12k DPS, so 5k DPS on top of that is around 40% more. You are right, this is working as intended. However keep in mind that this does not only mean 40% more DPS, you also get 40% more survivability due to the points you have in the "tank" trees and you don't have to *decide* to do that - you get that *in addition*.Just out of curiosity, 5k DPS out of how much total?
Any math beats my no-math conjecture, but it does seem like this would be somewhat expected at the lower levels of the CS. Assuming everything was going as advertised, the difference between 0CP vs. 70CP or 25CP vs. 140CP would be much more significant than say 400CP vs. 1600CP, right? When you're talking about DPS specifically, none of the 120 stars compare to the 12% crit you get [relatively] early on, and the other modifiers will actually suffer from "loldiminishingreturns", no?
True, the "first" points into the Champion System provide a lot more than the later ones. While people will be more or less on an even playing field *once* everybody has a couple of hundred points spent - the difference between let's say zero points (for a new player starting let's say two months after the system is in place) and somebody who has hardcore grinded an additional 100 points to the initial 70 points a veteran player gets "for free" is substantial. Also keep in mind that you need at least one hour playtime to get a point but so far this is very theoretical and largely depends on your playstyle. Four hours is way more realistic judging from the PTS right now. That means around 100 to 400 hours to even be able to catch up and during that time veteran players will grind even more points. While the power growth for them is less substantial going from there (but still not totally neglectable), new players will be wrecked in PvP and will perform not competitive in raids or dungeons. That makes it very frustrating to catch up (although it's possible in theory), it takes way too long and this is what causes the problem.1 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
This whole debate about CS/CP is blighted by ZOS refusal to explain what happens post-VR.Rescorla_ESO wrote: »Assuming veteran ranks are removed from the game and the level cap becomes 50
People describe the Champion System as replacing VR, even ZOS have, and that plainly isn't true. CS is a character progression system at best described as 'horizontal' insofar as characters have stopped increasing in level, so what the hell happens to the old VR content?
Everything connected with Cadwell's Silver/Gold is VERTICAL progression entirely defined by zones with specific levels and level-gated gear. VR2 is for all intents and purposes level 51, V3 is 52, etc. (remember VR1 is also level 50).
ALL of that is obsolete once the VR system is scrapped, because it IS the VR system. CS has no bearing on that, CS is about what XP is used for, it has nothing to do with the content that XP is being earned from.
I suspect ZOS aren't talking about it because they still don't know what to do. They can't just remove VR from the game, over 2/3 of the PVE content is founded on the VR mechanic.
You (anyone) could argue the VR gate becomes a CS gate but there's no equivalence, there is nothing about CS/CP that determines how a current VR4 zone can be balanced once level 53 is no more, for example.
CP system horizontal? can you send me a portion of what ever you´re smoking - must be great stuff if it supresses reality compleatly.
12% crit in one step is a *** hughe power increasement for a horizontal progression. and every constellation contains comparable steps so stop calling this dump grindfest a horizontal progression.spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"1 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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I said why I consider it 'horizontal at best', instead of being abusive please explain why you think it's 'vertical'.fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
This whole debate about CS/CP is blighted by ZOS refusal to explain what happens post-VR.Rescorla_ESO wrote: »Assuming veteran ranks are removed from the game and the level cap becomes 50
People describe the Champion System as replacing VR, even ZOS have, and that plainly isn't true. CS is a character progression system at best described as 'horizontal' insofar as characters have stopped increasing in level, so what the hell happens to the old VR content?
Everything connected with Cadwell's Silver/Gold is VERTICAL progression entirely defined by zones with specific levels and level-gated gear. VR2 is for all intents and purposes level 51, V3 is 52, etc. (remember VR1 is also level 50).
ALL of that is obsolete once the VR system is scrapped, because it IS the VR system. CS has no bearing on that, CS is about what XP is used for, it has nothing to do with the content that XP is being earned from.
I suspect ZOS aren't talking about it because they still don't know what to do. They can't just remove VR from the game, over 2/3 of the PVE content is founded on the VR mechanic.
You (anyone) could argue the VR gate becomes a CS gate but there's no equivalence, there is nothing about CS/CP that determines how a current VR4 zone can be balanced once level 53 is no more, for example.
CP system horizontal? can you send me a portion of what ever you´re smoking - must be great stuff if it supresses reality compleatly..
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Berinima✭✭✭Ok, since people don't like to google the terms "horizontal" and "vertical" progression, let me explain. A true "horizontal" progression means that a system does not provide any power growth at all. Your character does not get stronger at all, he only gets more versatile. Think the skill trees in the game as a horizontal progression. You don't get more powerful because you level the fighter's guild line, you only have more options for your build. Whereas in vertical systems your character gets stronger over time. When you have a strict vertical progression, you don't get more versatile at all, you keep all your skills and you get only more powerful. So by definition, the Champion System is a steep vertical progression. Period.1
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TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ok, since people don't like to google the terms "horizontal" and "vertical" progression, let me explain. A true "horizontal" progression means that a system does not provide any power growth at all. Your character does not get stronger at all, he only gets more versatile. Think the skill trees in the game as a horizontal progression. You don't get more powerful because you level the fighter's guild line, you only have more options for your build. Whereas in vertical systems your character gets stronger over time. When you have a strict vertical progression, you don't get more versatile at all, you keep all your skills and you get only more powerful. So by definition, the Champion System is a steep vertical progression. Period.
Yup, people have already tried to explain this to him, but I guess that the "as long as the number next to the "Level" tag doesn't increase, then my progression is horizontal" feeling is just too strong for some people.
As someone else suggested, CP system would be horizontal progression if using a CP to increase stamina meant it decreases magicka or HP (and I would quit the game as soon as such system is implemented because I don't call that progression, I call it stagnation). Vertical progression is good, but this one is too harsh for a game with such a big casual community.Edited by TehMagnus on February 5, 2015 2:13PM4 -
Lied✭✭✭Yes the difference is much more significant at early levels and I'd wager the diminishing returns will begin to be felt after ~500 to 600 points (I'll do the math this weekend). the problem is that even if it's 500 points, this would mean that someone with 500 points is UBERMONSTEROP compared to a guy with 70 CP and at current rate it would take the guy with 70 CP about 4 years to catch up on the guy with 500 points.That means around 100 to 400 hours to even be able to catch up and during that time veteran players will grind even more points. While the power growth for them is less substantial going from there (but still not totally neglectable), new players will be wrecked in PvP and will perform not competitive in raids or dungeons. That makes it very frustrating to catch up (although it's possible in theory), it takes way too long and this is what causes the problem.
While I'm less concerned about most of the 120 stars and the power of someone that has all of them, I can get behind the concern of the time gap specifically for the portion of the CS that everyone seems to agree will have the significant impact on your character.
Maybe this was always buried in the previous complaints, but this particular point comes across as much more concise and measurable.0 -
Razzak✭✭✭✭✭Yes the difference is much more significant at early levels and I'd wager the diminishing returns will begin to be felt after ~500 to 600 points (I'll do the math this weekend). the problem is that even if it's 500 points, this would mean that someone with 500 points is UBERMONSTEROP compared to a guy with 70 CP and at current rate it would take the guy with 70 CP about 4 years to catch up on the guy with 500 points.That means around 100 to 400 hours to even be able to catch up and during that time veteran players will grind even more points. While the power growth for them is less substantial going from there (but still not totally neglectable), new players will be wrecked in PvP and will perform not competitive in raids or dungeons. That makes it very frustrating to catch up (although it's possible in theory), it takes way too long and this is what causes the problem.
While I'm less concerned about most of the 120 stars and the power of someone that has all of them, I can get behind the concern of the time gap specifically for the portion of the CS that everyone seems to agree will have the significant impact on your character.
Maybe this was always buried in the previous complaints, but this particular point comes across as much more concise and measurable.
I agree, any kind of difference would not be so dramatic, if the time to obtain CPs was not so drastically long. I can understand their desire to keep players playing, but I don't understand how they think years of playing for a part of CPs will keep anyone interested? It just feels like a huge and lengthy chore.
They already have time related system with researching, but that one is like a life of a fly compared to life of an elephant, which is CP system.Edited by Razzak on February 5, 2015 2:40PM0