Faugaun wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Step 4) Radical Redesign - CP are gained based on Achievement Points (I think there are about 15,000 a character can receive??? So at current it would be about 2 Achievement points earns a CP)

God No!, No!, No!, No!.

Achievements are there for fun, you hunt them because you want to, not because they are obligatory.

Add to that the random aspect of some achievements, like the Generals of Molag Bal achievement, you could spend years trying to get that, while someone with more luck gets it in weeks.

All in all, this would make me quit, a redesign of how we get CPs, fair enough, just not achievement based.

Aerius_Sygale wrote: »

Err, not to disappoint you, but a major function of dyes is as something to add some depth to some of the Achievements by being attached to a fair percentage of them...

So though I appreciate the good intention, I'm afraid I have to say nay to making post-game revolve almost entirely around tons of random Achievements. ^^;

@AlexDougherty‌ why do you need to get every single achievement point for this to work? How would you suggest a redesign of how we get CP? Frankly I think achievement linked seems interesting, on the flip side the current system is functional and doesn't necessarily need to be changed (though with so many people complaining in the forums ... Well they are convinced there are real problems) ...

Because after you get the fun ones, which I am still going after (shouldn't have started three main characters, now four), you would have to go after the others to get the maximum.

Yes I get that for a while we would have tons of achievements to chase, but that would soon deminish and we would be left with the awkward ones that are plain simply unfair at the moment.

I appreciate that you were looking for a fun way to get CPs instead of the grind we have ahead, but I really don't think Achievements are the way to go here.

Given how long it will take for us to max out our CPs, I think they simply need to review the rate at which we earn them, the current predictions say a minimum of five years to max it out, which lets be frank is far far too long.

I guess I am still missing your complaint ....I mean if doing all the achievements gets me say 100,000 CP but I can only use 10,000 in the CS system why am I obligated to do ones that I don't enjoy?

(I am envisioning longterm development of this system, not just current achievements)

Well if you add to the achievements to allow for a more even earning, then fair enough.

But you would have to rebalance the amount that the more random achievements earn. For example the fishing achievements are ectremely random, Some people get Rare fish ater a few tries while others try thousands of times and never get any (I have heard of both in these forums). The Generals of Molag Bal are random too, you can get one the first time you try a Dolmen, or have to try a hundred times. The collectables are random too, you might get a Banekin horn easily or never.

That's the heart of my problem, don't get me wrong I'm not begrudging people with good luck, even though it sounds like I am, but you don't want luck to be that big a factor in the number of CPs you earn.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

So you want to force people into activities they dislike or are unable to do because it's the only way of character progression? No thanks, this is a terrible idea, much worse than the current Champion system.

@Rosveen‌

How is giving people hundreds of options forcing them into something? Compared to people only having 4-8 options currently?

if its the only way to get cp then its the only way to progress, if im at endgame and just want to pvp how is forcing me to do other things in order to progress not forcing me? should achievement give xp so its a valid way to progress? sure why not. should every other way be eliminated? thats !@#$%^& crazy talk.

@dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO‌

I think you missed it completely, by tiering the achievements you could still progress the same way as you currently do (by PvP (kill x players, kill x players of class y, capture x keeps, kill x players of y faction...), by doing trials (complete x trial y times, kill x boss in y trial z times...), by grinding (kill x mobs of y type) etc....) All of these would be tiered and give appropriate AP per time invested.

For instance a grinding mob tier system could be (numbers are just examples and would obviously need to be balanced by zos such that each achievement awarded similarly for the time input required).

Kill 1 werewolf - 1 AP
Kill 5 werewolves - 2 AP
Kill 25 werewolves 5 AP
Kill 125 werewolves 13 AP
Kill 625 werewolves 33 AP
Kill 3125 werewolves 83 AP
Kill 15625 werewolves 208 AP
Kill 78125 werewolves 520 AP

Don't wanna kill werewolves?

Maybe daedra?
Or vampires?
Or any other mob type....

More interested in delves? OK, go do hircines haunt in Craglorn (you'll still get the werewolf kills from above).

Complete hircines haunt 1 time - 1 AP
Complete hircines haunt 2 times - 1 AP
Complete hircines haunt 4 times - 2 AP
Complete hircines haunt 8 times - 3 AP
Complete hircines haunt 16 times - 5 AP
Complete hircines haunt 32 tines - 8 AP
Complete hircines haunt 64 times - 13 AP
Complete hircines haunt 128 times - 21 AP
Complete hircines haunt 256 times - 34 AP

And the boss kill achievements

Kill 1 dungeon boss - 1 AP
Kill 2 dungeon bosses - 1 AP
Kill 4 dungeon bosses - 2 AP
Kill 8 dungeon bosses - 3 AP
Kill 16 dungeon bosses - 5 AP
Kill 32 dungeon bosses - 8 AP
Kill 64 dungeon bosses - 13 AP
Kill 128 dungeon bosses - 21 AP
Kill 256 dungeon bosses - 34 AP
Kill 511 dungeon bosses - 55 AP

And the complete x delves achievements

Complete 1 Delve -1 AP
Complete 2 Delves - 1 AP
Complete 4 Delves - 2 AP
...
...
...
...
...
Complete 256 Delves - 34 AP

Now there are four mob types in hircines haunt Alligators, Bandits, Werewolves, wolves 2 bosses....

Assuming equal representation of all mob types there are about 30 of each. (15 ish pulls, 7 ish mobs each, plus bosstonefall. So assuming you never touched any of these achievements until this experiment and you ran this delve 256 times (if you can do a single delve more than that my hat is off to you...but obviously there would be more levels beyond these if players were pushing that far).

OK so 256 runs would equal killing 512 bosses and 7680 of each of four mob types.

So for each mob type you would get 1+2+5+13+33+83 = 137 AP
Times four mob types 137 * 4 = 548 AP
Plus Hircines haunt completion Achievement 1+1+2+3+5+8+13+21+34 = 88 AP
The delve Completion achievement 1+1+2+3+5+8+13+21+34 = 88 AP
And the boss kills achievement 1+1+2+3+5+8+13+21+34+55 = 143 AP

So just for the runs of this one dungeon a player might make: 548 + 88 + 88 + 143 = 867 AP ....not to mention the other acheivements they might get credit for in the process (accidental critters shot, treasure chests opened, ore nodes mined, deaths, etc...) Now if said person wanted to be smart and amd do less grinding he/she might do two dungeons each half the number of times. With 8 total mobs (30 of each) and 4 total bosses)....this means the boss kill and delve completion AP will remain the same (143, 88, respectively).
The mob types would be recalculated to 3840 of each kind of mob (same AP bracket) so 137 * 8 = 1096 AP
Then hircines haunt would achievement would only provide 54 AP but a second delve completion also nets 54 AP.

The grand total benefit from doing 2 delves instead of 1 is 1435 AP

This is quite a bit higher than the 867 AP from doing 1 delve for the same amount of time. Now I dunno what the conversion rate would be but I know currently 3 people clearing hircines haunt can get 60k exp per clear and this means 3.4 clears is worth 1 CP currently (after 1.6 it will bump up to 7.8?? Clears).

256/3.4 = 75 CP (currently)
256/7.8 = 38 CP (after 1.6)

So maybe with the particular scale that I provided then 10-25 AP = 1 CP

@10AP/CP = 86 CP for 1 delve 256x or 143 CP for 2 delves 128x each
@25AP/CP = 34 CP for 1 delve 256x or 57 CP for 2 delves 128x each

Somewhere in that range is comparable to what you would currently achieve from this fairly normal activity. You might notice that the longer you do 1 activity the less beneficial it becomes. You know what though doing 32 delves 8x each (1 time per character) seems a lot more fun than completing 1 delve 256 times and would yeild much greater CP. Because as you diversify your activities you gain more benefit but there is still plenty within the activities that a person likes to allow diversity and similar gain compared to other people doing completely different activities.

Heres the math on 32 similar delves 1xeach for 8 characters (this is equivalent to 5 zones per character the delves only and all characters doing the same faction let's say Aldameri Dominion) Zones are Auridan, Grahtwood, Greenshade, Malabal Tor and Repears March and the first two delves in stonefall (there are 6 delves per zone except cyrodil which has 18). We will assume there are some creature type over lap let's say in 32 delves we fight 16 unique creatures and there are 50 creatures in the average delve (this is lower than the 120 I estimated for the craglorn group delve) and 2 bosses.

50*8=400 creatures per delve
400*32 = 12,800 creatures
Or 800 of each type of creature

So for creature kills...1+2+5+13+33 = 54 AP per creature type
54AP times 16 creature types = 864 AP
Total creature kills achievement = 1+2+5+13+33+83=137 AP
Each delve 8x = 7*32 AP = 224 AP
The delve Completion achievement 1+1+2+3+5+8+13+21+34 = 88 AP
And the boss kills achievement 1+1+2+3+5+8+13+21+34+55 = 143 AP

So this totals 864+137+224+88+143 = 1456 AP ...OK now I know this isn't a huge amount above the 1435 AP for two Craglorn delves...but these are not group delves we are assuming creature diversity is limited etc... And that there were fewer creatures per run that were killed ....if scaled to equivalent footing it would actually be something closer too...

30 mobs = 1+2+5 = 8 AP, four mobs types per dungeon 8*4 = 32 AP times 32 dungeons 32*32= 1024 AP for individual creature kills
Total creature kills achievement (now 30,720) = 1+2+5+13+33+83+208=345 AP
Each delve 8x = 7*32 AP = 224 AP
The delve Completion achievement 1+1+2+3+5+8+13+21+34 = 88 AP
And the boss kills achievement 1+1+2+3+5+8+13+21+34+55 = 143 AP

For a total of 1824 AP, in addition to all this AP you now also have 8 level 50 characters, (probably some achievement points for that) have mined stuff along the way, have opened chests along the way,have received exploration AP probably got crafter achievements 8x (from deconstruction) killed critters and who know what else for an equivalent amount of dungeon running...now if a player did 2 AD, 3DC, 3EP, characters then the unique number of delves is increased to 90 further increasing AP and thus CP gain.

Diversifying can maximize the AP gain under this system but if a player chose to focus heavily on one or a dozen tasks then he could still progress reasonably well. Assuming 108 delves (cyrodil + EP +AD + DC) if a player wanted only to grind delves to level they could run each one 125 times (that's 13,500 delve runs BTW....if someone does that many and still enjoys delves I would like their autograph...just saying). This would be about 108,000 AP and at 10AP per CP it would be 10,800 CP (in a system that currently only requires 3,600 and I propose should take the old required 7,200 CP to put a point in every possible location). That's just from fighting in delves....and you could fill up the current CP 3x over....in reality it would only take doing all 108 delves about 25 times each to max the champion system currently.

So yes all the people whom currently progress with the experience system would be able to continue progressing just like they always have (they wouldn't get exp sure..but the same activities would provide an equivalent amount of AP) and people who do not enjoy that would have hundreds of other options (fishing, crafting, questing, mining, herb hunting, PvP, spell weaving, trading, collecting mounts, claiming bounties, pickpocketing, collecting skyshards, exploring, et cetera et cetera....

Everyone who enjoys the current 4-8 experience granting activities could still progress doing those same activities but there would be hundreds of additional activities opened up allowing other players in progress in many other way. This would be a real "Play how you want" system because there would be hundreds of individual ways and thousands of combinations of ways to progress through the champion system.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

its supposd to be a passive system, you play how you want and whatever you do you get xp and that translates into cp. creating REQUIREMENTS is the exact opposite, its is no longer passive and forces people to play a certain way. can anyone possible want that? I seriously can not imagine anybody wanting that unless they are a self serving completionist who just wants an edge over those who are not.
the Biggest problem with this system is some gamers obsession that they have eveything BEFORE they are competitive, its actually their attitude that is a problem not the progression system. they cp system does not require that, half the perks wont help your build and funneling all into one area has serious diminishing returns.

sorry but two thumbs down I would not play your game.

@dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO‌

Currently it is not passive, it requires one of about 4-8 tasks and if you do anything outside of those tasks then you are SOL, cause now you're forced to do something that interests you less in order to progress. By opening it up to all the tasks that there are achievements for the field is opened up for so much more.

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Step 4) Radical Redesign - CP are gained based on Achievement Points (I think there are about 15,000 a character can receive??? So at current it would be about 2 Achievement points earns a CP)

God No!, No!, No!, No!.

Achievements are there for fun, you hunt them because you want to, not because they are obligatory.

Add to that the random aspect of some achievements, like the Generals of Molag Bal achievement, you could spend years trying to get that, while someone with more luck gets it in weeks.

All in all, this would make me quit, a redesign of how we get CPs, fair enough, just not achievement based.

Aerius_Sygale wrote: »

Err, not to disappoint you, but a major function of dyes is as something to add some depth to some of the Achievements by being attached to a fair percentage of them...

So though I appreciate the good intention, I'm afraid I have to say nay to making post-game revolve almost entirely around tons of random Achievements. ^^;

@AlexDougherty‌ why do you need to get every single achievement point for this to work? How would you suggest a redesign of how we get CP? Frankly I think achievement linked seems interesting, on the flip side the current system is functional and doesn't necessarily need to be changed (though with so many people complaining in the forums ... Well they are convinced there are real problems) ...

Because after you get the fun ones, which I am still going after (shouldn't have started three main characters, now four), you would have to go after the others to get the maximum.

Yes I get that for a while we would have tons of achievements to chase, but that would soon deminish and we would be left with the awkward ones that are plain simply unfair at the moment.

I appreciate that you were looking for a fun way to get CPs instead of the grind we have ahead, but I really don't think Achievements are the way to go here.

Given how long it will take for us to max out our CPs, I think they simply need to review the rate at which we earn them, the current predictions say a minimum of five years to max it out, which lets be frank is far far too long.

I guess I am still missing your complaint ....I mean if doing all the achievements gets me say 100,000 CP but I can only use 10,000 in the CS system why am I obligated to do ones that I don't enjoy?

(I am envisioning longterm development of this system, not just current achievements)

Well if you add to the achievements to allow for a more even earning, then fair enough.

But you would have to rebalance the amount that the more random achievements earn. For example the fishing achievements are ectremely random, Some people get Rare fish ater a few tries while others try thousands of times and never get any (I have heard of both in these forums). The Generals of Molag Bal are random too, you can get one the first time you try a Dolmen, or have to try a hundred times. The collectables are random too, you might get a Banekin horn easily or never.

That's the heart of my problem, don't get me wrong I'm not begrudging people with good luck, even though it sounds like I am, but you don't want luck to be that big a factor in the number of CPs you earn.

@AlexDougherty‌

I agree luck should be a lesser component, perhaps each rare fish could be an achievement and all of them (or by zones) could be another achievement...the chance of a player having a rare event occur the chances of that same player having multiple rare events occur is much lower. I completely agree it should be balanced and some balancing needs to occur (but hey if someone can grind in craglorn and make 600k exp an hour....perhaps that needs balancing too). Its the same balancing just a different name for the metric and opening more doors.

TehMagnus wrote: »

@Faugaun I'm saying CPs can be earned through XP and passives through achievement or some kind of questing because the real problem with champion system is the passives OPness and the grind that is needed to get them.

CPs on their purest form without passives are just a form of long Horizontal progression with diminishing returns.

@TehMagnus‌

You completely lost me ....if CP are earned for the sake of earning CP and passive skills are gained some alternate way then what is the point of CP?

A truly horizontal progression is like the skill wheel in The Secret World, anything that adds strength is vertical but added diversity is passive. A novel thing they did was require that passives and actives be slotted (my memory is vague I hope I didn't just make that up). So over time a player would unlock more and more abilities...each time an ability was unlocked it allowed further build diversification (more parts create more possible combinations). Maybe that is all TESO needs to do is limit the number of passives that can be active on a build then just balance all the passives as skills. Idk ...anyways can you please explain further cause I'm confused.


OK this post is too long to continue responding to additional posters...I will continue responding in a second post. Thanks everyone for the discussion on this topic.

First 1 through 3 they are already doing lol

Second you talk about a solution for grinding but then want new CP based off of grinding? And grinding in which we have no option to chose from as opposed to the current purposed system.
Naw ill stick with what ZOS is planning.

Leeric wrote: »

First 1 through 3 they are already doing lol

Second you talk about a solution for grinding but then want new CP based off of grinding? And grinding in which we have no option to chose from as opposed to the current purposed system.
Naw ill stick with what ZOS is planning.

@Leeric‌

No I don't want a new CP based of grinding...I want a different way to acquire CP that allows for compensation for more activities than the current 4-8 activities that generate exp.

I want to progress by crafting, I want to progress by exploring, I want to progress by fishing, I want to progress by trading on the guild store and making a small fortune, I want to progress by finding all the skyshards in a zone, I want to progress by killing every named boss in the game, I want to progress by hanging out in a tavern rolling dice, I want to progress by making food for my guild, I want to progress by helping a new person to the game in the first zone, I want to be able to fully experience the game and not have to worry about progression it just happens. Unfortunately I doubt zos will give us experience just for being logged into the game (and nothing else, because then it would be favoritism ....but people would complain about it not being fair because people didn't do anything or because people could afk and level up...my personal opinion...if they want to afk and level up...let them....that sounds really boring to me but hey whatever as long as they are paying and supporting the game and they find that to be fun, then by all means). So outside of the remote hope that one day a game will reward everyone for everything regardless of what they choose to do.

My next best solution is to base progression off of achievements which require something (that is defined) to be done in exchange for the achievement. This is much larger than the available options for experience. Yeah its not perfect but its a lot better than 4-8 options we currently have that all become a grind after they have been completed for the umpteenth time.

I'm all ears if you have a more flexible solution

Grunim wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

HELL TO THE NO!! i am not an achievement hunter i can care less about a lil icon that says "congrats you you killed a mudcrab" much less have it decide my entire leveling career DC universe did that and now its impossible to do anything with any form of progression that doesn't hemorrhage money into a cash shop dlc to get even more achievements .... if they made it achievement base pretty sure 80-95% of the player base put on their walking boots and have their middle fingers to the sky as they kick the door off the hinges on their way out never to return...

Amen!

I also prefer to play the game not having to look at my achievements. Most of the time if an achievement happens it happens, if it doesn't, it doesn't. I even find it annoying to listen to players who feel like every achievement they earn needs to be announced to their guildies, but that's another story...

Though I feel as if earning CPs is currently very grindy in its present iteration, I don't want it tied to achievements as well.

@Grunim‌

I bolded exactly what I would do with this system, and the point of it. There are so many ways to get CP that a player just plays knowing that everything is giving them credit. Then an achievement pops and you're like oh wow that's cool I guess I got some CP! <do a happy dance>. But those who wanted to could look at them.

This is very different than the current system where you can get experience in only 4-8 different ways...