I admire your faith in people, but there's one thing that the bad apples of ESO have proven: if there's an exploit, they will find it and use it. And they will scream bloody murder if anyone dares take away the exploit and make them play honestly again.

Better to start out with unkillable guards, because NPC behavior is far too easy to exploit.

My only complaint, guards come out of nowhere. That just irked me. I was expecting, enter town, avoid the guards that roam same as you do enemy camps when in disguise, but no, walk towards gate and a guard just spawns on top of you basically.

Trust me, people WOULD find a way to exploit the system.

This community, sad to say, is full of pathetic cheaters that suck so much they cant play the game itself, and want to make it easy at the expense of everyone else's fun.

There are also the grievers, who WOULD find a way to grieve with this system.

I myself do not want to take that kind of risk. Leave the guards as they are. You and everyone of us can adapt.

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

ALSO,

If you attack a guard that is inside of a building, you are basically dead. You can't open doors while inside, so you have a god attacking you inside of a room you can't get out of. That ain't right.

I /bugged that one on Friday of last week. It works that way when anyone is attacking you. If you get caught in the inn stealing, you have to kill everyone in there or you have to die. Hopefully they can address it.

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

I think a lot of people are taking the worst case scenarios of making guards killable and focusing way to much on them.

This is because the worse case scenario is entirely possible in this game. The idea simply does not scale. If the guards can be killed, the players will organize events to do so. They will bring whatever forces are necessary to accomplish this. Players outnumber guards in this game by several orders of magnitude. The only thing that prevents us from zerg rolling the guards is invulnerability and the max channel size.

EDIT: I want to point out that even invulnerable guards can be kept busy while others loot the town. I watched a group in Craglorn keep a guard busy for a while. They cannot kill the guard but they can get him to change focus enough to keep the party members alive. They can lead the guards around like they are on a leash.

lordrichter wrote: »

This is because the worse case scenario is entirely possible in this game. The idea simply does not scale. If the guards can be killed, the players will organize events to do so. They will bring whatever forces are necessary to accomplish this. Players outnumber guards in this game by several orders of magnitude. The only thing that prevents us from zerg rolling the guards is invulnerability and the max channel size.

@lordrichter‌

The thing I don't understand is, why are people getting so upset about this?

As I have stated above, nothing significant can be killed by this system, because ZOS is smart and thought it threw and disabled significant/important NPCs being killed. So it becomes a matter of "So what?" if the guards can die, they serve no purpose other than walking around, just as the NPCs that can be killed.

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

...You know they have stated MANY times that the guards in towns and cities would be UNKILLABLE.

But why? Having them unkillable is so pointless, as killing them would serve no other goal than the extension of ones life after being caught. They don't prevent people from killing things massively, and no significant NPCs can be killed, and if you are careful you can kill everything that is intended and go on a marauding spree just as people fear. Killing them would just be a quality of life boost for the solo player, as it would give them a chance to fight for their lives.

Nothing significant would die from guards being able to die.

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

...You know they have stated MANY times that the guards in towns and cities would be UNKILLABLE.

But why? Having them unkillable is so pointless, as killing them would serve no other goal than the extension of ones life after being caught. They don't prevent people from killing things massively, and no significant NPCs can be killed, and if you are careful you can kill everything that is intended and go on a marauding spree just as people fear. Killing them would just be a quality of life boost for the solo player, as it would give them a chance to fight for their lives.

Nothing significant would die from guards being able to die.

It's not pointless. It's to dissuade people from ransacking cities and farming gold on a massive scale.

Say for instance, a guild got together, put 24 people in a group and ran through and kept farming a city over and over and over and over again, gathering up all the loot items from the NPCs and vendoring them all to fences.

That much of a gold influx would destabilize what little of an economy there is in game.

That would force ZOS to nerf the loot drops on the NPCs, effectively pissing EVERYBODY off and rendering the Justice System little more than a fluff piece.

Guards are unkillable and all powerful to stop this from happening, effectively nipping this potential problem in the bud.

Did that explain it well enough for you?

I have to agree that ESO is an MMORPG first and Elder Scrolls game second, and thus should stick closer to MMO fundamentals, such as unkillable guards, in the name of balance and blah blah... you know where I'm going with this

WoW = MMO first, warcraft second
FFXIV and FFXI = MMO first, and final fantasy second
LoTRO = MMO first

I won't go on with that, but you get the gist of it.

There is a modest amount to be gained through killing, looting, and pickpocketing town NPC's, and the guards add in the risk to balance it out.

IMO

Killing guards has absolutely nothing to do with being a solo player. You can't kill them solo, you can't kill them in a group. It's fair. It's balanced.

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

It's not pointless. It's to dissuade people from ransacking cities and farming gold on a massive scale.

Say for instance, a guild got together, put 24 people in a group and ran through and kept farming a city over and over and over and over again, gathering up all the loot items from the NPCs and vendoring them all to fences.

That much of a gold influx would destabilize what little of an economy there is in game.

That would force ZOS to nerf the loot drops on the NPCs, effectively pissing EVERYBODY off and rendering the Justice System little more than a fluff piece.

Guards are unkillable and all powerful to stop this from happening, effectively nipping this potential problem in the bud.

Did that explain it well enough for you?

Two quick things.

1. There is a sell limit to how many stolen goods can be sold to a fence on a daily basis, that limit is 50. I can easily clear out this 50 in a matter of minutes by breaking into a few homes, backstabbing a few NPCs, and I get away scott free as I bolt to the thief hideout.

2. Think 1. in mind, how do guards prevent people from doing this? A guild can easily do this, they just have to go to a secluded part of town. Its a quality of life thing being able to kill guards, they don't prevent jack.

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

@Iluvrien‌

The worst thing that can happen is that a town becomes barren of generic NPCs, and instead becomes filled with players who are killing NPCs. They NPCs also respawn, btw, so its not like it would remain devoid of NPCs forever or for any significant amount of time, maybe 30 seconds to a minute.

Assuming, and this may or may not be a significant assumption*, that there is no NPC anywhere that either gives a quest, or sells/exchanges anything, gives access to an area or is interactable in any directly profitable way you still suggest there will be effects in terms of a lack of generic NPCs (if their presence adds nothing to the town, why are they there?) and becoming filled with players who are killing NPCs. There are effects, and they may well not be welcome ones. Just because you don't care if these things happen, does it mean that we should ignore the people who do?

[* The tamriel unlimited announcement video with Matt Firor etc. shows Kai killing Camille Phien a marketplace trader in Daggerfall. Can you confirm that this functionality has been removed from the current PTS version?]

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

Also, complain that people do something for no reason, or no practical reason whatsoever, in an MMO is a null point to the extreme. The generic, meaningless, NPCs are going to die anyway, its just a quality of life thing. And for people who do it constantly, complaining about that is the same as complaining about people who go out and harvest ores.

I could just as easily sit here and complain "BAWH, there are no iron ore veins for me to mine because people are mining them before me", and that complaint would be on equal level as complaining about people killing NPCs.

Except that, back in early access and soon after release, people were making this complaint because the nodes were being camped by bots and bot trains. The extensive systematic removal of something that players want or desire does happen and is complained about. A single person complaining about another single person going out to collect ores will garner neither agreement or a solution from ZOS, but we aren't talking about situations like that.

My example of griefing of RP'ers in taverns is a recognised problem and can and does get reported to the GMs in game. The implications of this situation do not, generally, boil down to a one on one situation. We are talking about organised groups continually doing this. That changes both the dynamic and the required response fundamentally.

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

That kind of complaint just makes you go #facedesk #facepalm #really?

Does it? And if people were using /feedback because they were continuously being prevented from going there due to a group wiping it clean and keeping it clean of all NPCs? That would still be your response?

Interesting.

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

It's not pointless. It's to dissuade people from ransacking cities and farming gold on a massive scale.

Say for instance, a guild got together, put 24 people in a group and ran through and kept farming a city over and over and over and over again, gathering up all the loot items from the NPCs and vendoring them all to fences.

That much of a gold influx would destabilize what little of an economy there is in game.

That would force ZOS to nerf the loot drops on the NPCs, effectively pissing EVERYBODY off and rendering the Justice System little more than a fluff piece.

Guards are unkillable and all powerful to stop this from happening, effectively nipping this potential problem in the bud.

Did that explain it well enough for you?

Two quick things.

1. There is a sell limit to how many stolen goods can be sold to a fence on a daily basis, that limit is 50. I can easily clear out this 50 in a matter of minutes by breaking into a few homes, backstabbing a few NPCs, and I get away scott free as I bolt to the thief hideout.

2. Think 1. in mind, how do guards prevent people from doing this? A guild can easily do this, they just have to go to a secluded part of town. Its a quality of life thing being able to kill guards, they don't prevent jack.

Actually. You're wrong.

The base limit for sold stolen goods is 50. Putting skill points into the Legerdemain passives raise that limit by 120% for each point in the particular passive.


1) Doesn't matter with a high enough Legerdemain skill. And the items can sit in your inventory while your max sell limit is on cool down. It's not like they're going to decay or disappear out of your inventory.

2) It's not QoL. It's d-bag deterence. Sure you probably can get away with it in a secluded part of town, but guards patrol so at some point somebody's going to screw up and aggro a guard. The guard will then proceed to kill this individual and his buddies.

There is absolutely NOTHING preventing me and my friends from doing what you are saying is the big reason for not being able to kill guards right now, just be selectively doing it in Daggerfall. There is a place where guards don't really bother going, where I could just sit there and kill 4-5 NPCs for hours, loading up my bags, and waiting.

But wait, heres a problem, my bags only have so much inventory space, and I generally use that for other things. Also, banks don't accept stolen goods I believe, so I can't put it in there.

So, heres the breakdown: I can kill NPCs as much as I want, loot them, sell the loot( 50 times a day only) and make a little pocket gold. Ok, lets do the math, 50 x say 250 gold as a median, that equates to about 12,500 gold. 12,500 gold is LAUGHABLY obtainable through other means... LAUGHABLY.

EDIT: Now, lets say that I go this Legerdemain route and get the passive. I would need to fill my bags to a ridiculous amount in order to sell all the things, or have the items lined up for the next day. Now, what that would do, is it would prevent me from having bag space for other things, so I would need to delete stolen goods (as I cannot store them elsewhere), and so spending the time to fill up my bags just to delete it would become pointless

Arguing that removing the fear of guards would enable people to go on mass looting sprees is a moot point because they can only make 12,500 gold a day doing that, an amount that is petty.

@Iluvrien‌

If a significant NPC with a real purpose could be killed, it would be a bug, and I am sure if it was abused repeatedly that ZOS would hotfix it, as there would be a major outcry from the community, as there is with any such bug.

I am sure right now vendors and quest givers can't be killed right now (I am throwing fireballs at one and nothing is happening)

I don't see any real negative effects to people killing generic NPCs. Here are my thoughts:

Scenario 1: Person1 walks into town, bunch of generic NPCs walking around, killable guards, people killing generic NPCs and guards. Person1 sees his quest giver at the end of the street, walks over there, grabs quest, moves on, possibly joins in on the fight and has a good time and makes a little side money (50 sell limit).

Scenario 2: Person2 walks into town, bunch of generic NPCs walking around, unkillable guards, people still killing generic NPCs around town. Person2 walks over to quest giver, on the way accidently left clicks and hits a mob. Person2 kills the mob, but now has bounty, but thinks nothing of it. Person2 meets angry guard. Angry guard is a god, kills Person 2 because he cannot defend himself and live, and tries to run away but gets stun/pulled. Person2 gets killed, is angry, has to walk back and just wasted his precious time.

See, I really don't see a negative draw back to being able to kill guards, it has little to no effect on the game if it were to be allowed, other than a QoL improvement for some people. They prevent nothing, as people still kill NPCs with them being unkillable, they are just annoying and possibly hinder the game for others. Sure, there will be sounds of fighting, big deal.

Many of the generic NPCs only serve the purpose of being justice system targets, as many of them I don't recall ever seeing before, and besides that, the generic NPCs only serve to populate the towns, which they are going to die anyway, with or without god guards, so really here is no purpose to not kill guards.

I agree with the OP. How can we be the savior of Nern, yet 6 of us can't take down a single guard?

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Okay, you just proved my point. There are other safeguards in place to prevent people from earning ridiculous amounts of gold from the new system.

Inventory space is another preventative measure, in it's own right.

And I'm not talking about paltry amounts like 10's of thousands of gold for 2-3 hours work. I'm talking about people coming in and wiping entire cities clean of npcs for hours at a time.

Nobody gives a damn if you sit in your corner and kill the same mobs over and over again.

Have at it.

How you spend your time is your business.

But you're just one guy. If guards were kill-able, 1 GUY COULD DO THIS TO AN ENTIRE TOWN.

That's unacceptable. That's why you can't kill guards.

/thread

No... sorry, try again.

There are other preventing measures in place to prevent people from mass looting, yes, so why should we need the guard one to keep people from wiping out towns (something they can already do regardless). The 50 sell limit and natural bag space should be enough to serve as blockers, there is no justifiable reason to have unkillable guards.

I could, right now (and I am tempted to), throw up my livestream right now and record me ransacking Daggerfall, perfectly do-able as I did it earlier. I was mindful, and kept away from them, and still mass murdered. Its just an enjoyment thing to kill them.

There is no point to mass wipe cities for hours at a time, because natural measures make the gain from that disappear in a few minutes, and to continue doing so isn't stopped by guards, because they can't protect anything because you can, like I said, still clear towns in a breeze without involving them.

So again, try again my good sir, for you cannot /thread so soon.