Surge vs Entropy?

NovaShadow · February 2015

See this is why I re-did my sorc to be stamina based spec'd into bow (no vamp, ick) though now days she rocks a 2h sword and kicks ass in PVP. As far as the topic goes I tried surge, didn't do anything for me so I lvl'd Entropy and now use Degeneration in every fight. Works well.

A1exeR · February 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

Guys, the cost of an ability doesn't matter if you have to cast it once every 20 seconds. Surge is not expensive in any way. You can use whatever you like, but please don't say it's better because it costs less. You really need a crappy magicka management to worry about the costs of that ability, and if so, then you probably have bigger problems that that.

Are you seen any high end content? What your dps?
Such statements show you a beginner who nothing knows about the game.

MADshadowman · February 2015

A1exeR wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Guys, the cost of an ability doesn't matter if you have to cast it once every 20 seconds. Surge is not expensive in any way. You can use whatever you like, but please don't say it's better because it costs less. You really need a crappy magicka management to worry about the costs of that ability, and if so, then you probably have bigger problems that that.

Are you seen any high end content? What your dps?
Such statements show you a beginner who nothing knows about the game.

Well, i always thought i was a pretty good player, since i'm playing this game everyday for almost a year now, but thanks to your endless knowledge and wisdom, i now know that i'm a beginner who knows nothing about this game.

The world really needs more people like you, that are running around spreading the truth. Thanks again for so much inteligence and constructiveness packed into one post.

God, Thanks so much For your Opinion

Magdalina · February 2015

@MADshadowman‌, I don't want to be rude at all - we all care for our class do the discussion gets a bit...heated sometimes, but it's still no reason to be outright rude - but what kind of content do you do, and what kind of content did you do well with on PTS? Upper Crag trash packs, dungeons, Trials?

Also, what makes you think sorc heals are stronger now? Unless I'm missing something, that can't be the case. We still have no class skills to contribute to healing aside from(arguably) surge(which I agree might be better for healer than Entropy since you might not be on the front line as a healer). Staves still scale off max magicka, nothing new there. Granted, you can now stack magicka higher without softcaps, but so can other classes. Staves now scale off spell damage instead of weapon damage, that's a big change. However, 1.5 Surge buffed weapon damage MORE than 1.6 Surge buffs spell damage and most sorcs were stacking weapon damage in 1.5 just as they will start stacking spell damage in 1.6. Do correct me if I'm missing something, but doesn't look like a buff to me.

Nihil · February 2015

While I haven't tested power surge on pts the main use I could see getting out of it over entropy would be for a hybrid build (some examples MAD said also do apply). When bored and soloing boss / content I sometimes run a restoration / duel wield build due to quick siphon as I end up healing a lot (on live) due to how often I hit the enemy. Power surge would increase my heals (and probably be more reliable then the current critical surge for boss encounters) when I run that build. I don't run it all that often tho so can't say how much use I would be putting into it.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2015

I'll add my 1.5g (make that 1.6g) here at the risk of getting crucified.

Removal of AoE caps are a good thing, diminishing returns included.

Presently, there is not worthwhile Sorc self heal - Surge wasn't the option people relied on, it was the only option.

No class should have to rely on non-class skills or a particular weapon to be effective. EDIT* (Will add pet-only build here, too.)

Regarding 1.6, it seems things either go down way too easy or not at all.

No class should have to rely on just Bow, just Restro, or just outside healing...

Any combination should be able to be made to work, even if not as efficiently or as effectively as another.

PvP feels pretty good, at least with the combo I've been using.

PvE in Cyrodiil (delves and dolmens), things drop without really trying.

Spellscar, it's doable, albeit a little differently than before.

Resources and Vet Group Dungeons seem almost impossible at first glance.

V3 Norm Spindle, the trash mob spiders have 2.5x HP of a player character.

The trash mobs...

I've seen people say it feels ok, seen people say it's insane.

Those that say it's ok, have you tried any Vet Content (group dungeons, Trials, DSA?) Do you have video of your success?

Those that say it's not, have switched some skills around and tried different methods? What content have you tested it on?

I've ran with some seasoned Dungeoneers and am quite capable on live. I'm wondering how much luck/success others have had on PTS that are able to complete the content on live.

That will help be the deciding factor.

The only downfall to this, is that people that are not having luck with it on live will have even less luck with it on 1.6, and that will discourage.

Not asking for nerfs, but I think there is much balancing to be done.

Right now, in my experience, it's either Freight Train or Train Wreck, and nothing in between.

MADshadowman · February 2015

Magdalina wrote: »

@MADshadowman‌, I don't want to be rude at all - we all care for our class do the discussion gets a bit...heated sometimes, but it's still no reason to be outright rude - but what kind of content do you do, and what kind of content did you do well with on PTS? Upper Crag trash packs, dungeons, Trials?

Also, what makes you think sorc heals are stronger now? Unless I'm missing something, that can't be the case. We still have no class skills to contribute to healing aside from(arguably) surge(which I agree might be better for healer than Entropy since you might not be on the front line as a healer). Staves still scale off max magicka, nothing new there. Granted, you can now stack magicka higher without softcaps, but so can other classes. Staves now scale off spell damage instead of weapon damage, that's a big change. However, 1.5 Surge buffed weapon damage MORE than 1.6 Surge buffs spell damage and most sorcs were stacking weapon damage in 1.5 just as they will start stacking spell damage in 1.6. Do correct me if I'm missing something, but doesn't look like a buff to me.

Well, i wasn't really rude, but i had no reason to be nice either.

I don't do trials, that's no fun to me and i really don't like the attitude most pve groups have. people get way to excited about the whole trial stuff and flaming group members that made a mistake is just *** behavior.

I do pve content only to level skills or get gold. But i can easily solo spell scar in craglorn. But pvp is what i am doing most of the time.

The change to staffs really benefits my build, since it's a full magicka build. i never used weapon damage enchants, only spell damage because i mostly only use 1 destro staff skill, sometimes even no destro skill at all. Full magicka sorcs are pretty powerfull now cause class skills, destro and resto staff skills are much stronger now than they used to be. Sure, we still need a resto staff to heal ourselves, which is odd but at least i can get some decent heals now and it feels good to stand in front of another player and heal myself to full while he's attacking me. This boosted my survivability immensely.

I'm not saying they buffed our class, they still haven't listened to what we're saying for months now, i'm just saying that it's not all bad, i still feel pretty good about my class, even though we are the weakest class now. But i think our strength comes from actual skill and from our love to this class.

I'm playing a sorcerer because i like being a sorcerer, not because it's the strongest and easiest class (hello dks!).

But yeah, there is a lot of room for improvements.

We need:

- a class heal
- a instant cast spell with decent damage
- some stamina management (not dark deal)
- a poweful aoe ultimate (atro is just not good)
- we should be able to cast lightning flood multiple times (right now they overwrite each other)

Especially the class self heal is something that would give us more build options, cause we could drop the resto staff and still have a reliable heal.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

But yeah, there is a lot of room for improvements.

We need:

- a class heal
- a instant cast spell with decent damage
- some stamina management (not dark deal)
- a poweful aoe ultimate (atro is just not good)
- we should be able to cast lightning flood multiple times (right now they overwrite each other)

Especially the class self heal is something that would give us more build options, cause we could drop the resto staff and still have a reliable heal.

There are also several single cast spells that have no reason to be that way. I can live with Curse being that way, but others should be able to be cast as long as you have the resources, such as:

Fire/Volc Rune
Mines
Rune Prison
Lightning Splash
Wall of Elements (No clue why they changed this, let alone made unstable last longer...)

Also, no reason the toggles have to be toggles... Give them a time to expire or active until clicked again (dispelled) / dispatched.

Lighting Armor doesn't go away when I switch bars. Other status effects don't go away when I switch bars.

There is no reason some of these things can't be easily corrected for the betterment of the game.

MADshadowman · February 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

But yeah, there is a lot of room for improvements.

We need:

- a class heal
- a instant cast spell with decent damage
- some stamina management (not dark deal)
- a poweful aoe ultimate (atro is just not good)
- we should be able to cast lightning flood multiple times (right now they overwrite each other)

Especially the class self heal is something that would give us more build options, cause we could drop the resto staff and still have a reliable heal.

There are also several single cast spells that have no reason to be that way. I can live with Curse being that way, but others should be able to be cast as long as you have the resources, such as:
Fire/Volc Rune

Mines

Rune Prison

Lightning Splash

Wall of Elements (No clue why they changed this, let alone made unstable last longer...)

Also, no reason the toggles have to be toggles... Give them a time to expire or active until clicked again (dispelled) / dispatched.

Lighting Armor doesn't go away when I switch bars. Other status effects don't go away when I switch bars.

There is no reason some of these things can't be easily corrected for the betterment of the game.

Yeah, the whole skill design just seems as if they did this on purpose to troll us. All our skills have some restrictions that force us to use combinations of all these skills to get at least a moderate amount of damage done.

Fragments: cast time
Endless fury: low damage, only good as a finisher
Curse: 3.5-6 seconds til it goes off
Lightning flood: short time, medium damage, only 1 flood can be active
Streak: 50% cost increase if used again within 4 seconds + 50% less mag regen
Prison: large area, but directional, very expensive
Pets: well...

That all screams "let's troll this class"

A1exeR · February 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

A1exeR wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Guys, the cost of an ability doesn't matter if you have to cast it once every 20 seconds. Surge is not expensive in any way. You can use whatever you like, but please don't say it's better because it costs less. You really need a crappy magicka management to worry about the costs of that ability, and if so, then you probably have bigger problems that that.

Are you seen any high end content? What your dps?
Such statements show you a beginner who nothing knows about the game.

Well, i always thought i was a pretty good player, since i'm playing this game everyday for almost a year now, but thanks to your endless knowledge and wisdom, i now know that i'm a beginner who knows nothing about this game.

The world really needs more people like you, that are running around spreading the truth. Thanks again for so much inteligence and constructiveness packed into one post.

God, Thanks so much For your Opinion

Perhaps the whole year you fished, enjoy the sunset or killed someone in Cyrodiil.
I have first EU kill Serpent and I want to say that the difference between Surge and Entropy in the cost of spells 4 times has the meaning.

GreyRanger · February 2015

I think the biggest issue the discussions raises is that Sorcerers are the most underpowered least balanced of the three classes (for example, only one with no really viable self heal with the critical surge nerf).

The imbalance seems critical to me given the Devs statement that they don't plan on doing serious class balancing for a while after 1.6 to let ESO "breath" (I think that means get ready for the main market: consoles).

I think that if we can't come up with modest/simple adjustments that get the Sorcerer on par with the other classes in this time window we have now they are likely to remain 4th class citizens for a long time. This is particularly striking for group based end game content where sorcerers are increasingly getting uninvited because the imbalance makes it harder on the group.

MADshadowman · February 2015

From the PTS 1.6.1 Patch notes:

Surge: All ranks and morphs of this ability now provide healing when you land a critical strike. Also, the healing cooldown has been reduced to 0.25 seconds from 1 second.

So, problem solved now?

seanvwolf · February 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

I said this a couple of times before. Surge was not a self heal. A self heal is an ability that you can use anytime and that heals you reliably. The healing from surge is a secondary effect you couldn't count on, if you weren't using crit rush.

On 1.5 build I could get 92.4% crit and make nearly every hit essentially a blow that healed me. I agree that I wouldn't call it a self heal in every aspect. But if templars drawing health from corpses, DK's using dragonblood and NB series of siphons and selfhealing executions call those a self heal, then yes... Crit Surge is, faiap, the sorcerer's self heal.

GreyRanger · February 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

From the PTS 1.6.1 Patch notes:

Surge: All ranks and morphs of this ability now provide healing when you land a critical strike. Also, the healing cooldown has been reduced to 0.25 seconds from 1 second.

So, problem solved now?

It is pretty good, but not quite there. With a channeled ability such as Flurry it means that some blows will miss the chance to provide a heal because they are occurring at about .2s intervals. The key thing the revision clarifies is that the ZOS goal is just to prevent surge from synergizing the AOE damage powers. Assuming that is the case if they cut it to 0.1s that will accomplish it with only a rare other adverse effect.

It does raise the bigger question of why ZOS did not want Surge to synergize with AOE damaging attacks?

Pretty good, not quite there; in my view.

A1exeR · February 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

From the PTS 1.6.1 Patch notes:

Surge: All ranks and morphs of this ability now provide healing when you land a critical strike. Also, the healing cooldown has been reduced to 0.25 seconds from 1 second.

So, problem solved now?

Must be reduce the cost 4 times

Merlin13KAGL · February 2015

GreyRanger wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

From the PTS 1.6.1 Patch notes:

Surge: All ranks and morphs of this ability now provide healing when you land a critical strike. Also, the healing cooldown has been reduced to 0.25 seconds from 1 second.

So, problem solved now?

It is pretty good, but not quite there. With a channeled ability such as Flurry it means that some blows will miss the chance to provide a heal because they are occurring at about .2s intervals. The key thing the revision clarifies is that the ZOS goal is just to prevent surge from synergizing the AOE damage powers. Assuming that is the case if they cut it to 0.1s that will accomplish it with only a rare other adverse effect.

It does raise the bigger question of why ZOS did not want Surge to synergize with AOE damaging attacks?

Pretty good, not quite there; in my view.

@GreyRanger‌ , could you link/quote where you see this?

The morph and patch notes indicate critical strikes - they don't specify weapon crits, nor exclusion of AoE effects?

The combination still seems a bit odd to me, rendering Crit Surge minimally more useful than Power Surge (10% more heals, but no Major Sorcery buff.)

The reduced cooldown is a step in the right direction. Heals from all versions, step in the right direction.

Would have made a bit more sense and been a bit more intuitive by having:

Base skill provide Minor Brutality and Minor Sorcery
- Morph options could then upgrade to Major Brutality or Major Sorcery

At present, I don't see many giving up Extra Spell Damage for 10% more heals.

GreyRanger · February 2015

As far as the change's goal being to prevent AOE synergizing with Surge, I don't have a quote from ZOS saying that is that is the goal, that was the conclusion I drew from what the changes do.

If you make the cool down small or, better, very small the net effect is the only critical hits that get excluded are when an AOE goes off and all the hits are essentially simultaneous. There will still be the occasional single target situation where a DOT ticks right before a big single target critical hit negating the heal, but the smaller you make the cool down, the less likely that is to happen.

What has been more interesting to me as I have looked at the changes that ZOS is making is to try to figure what they are trying to accomplish, so

Nightreaver · February 2015

GreyRanger wrote: »

If you make the cool down small or, better, very small the net effect is the only critical hits that get excluded are when an AOE goes off and all the hits are essentially simultaneous.

Shock is an ST attack that consists of 3 simultaneous attacks. As long as there is ANY CD on Surge then you will never get heal from more than one of those. This essentially reduces the already lowered heal amount to only a third of that value.

1) Crit values have been lowered making it harder to attain a heal.
2) Value of the heals have been lowered by more than a third so obviously healing for much less
3) Any CD causes abilities that have DOTs to lower healing.
4) Any CD lowers heals from Shock (Sorcerer main ST attack) by 66%.
5) Any CD reduces heals from AOE to just one.
6) Lightning Form (On Live) works real well with Impulse by providing added protection but since it also pulses a minuscule amount of damage every second it also greatly reduces Heals from Surge.

I still can't see Surge worth taking up a slot on PTS.

GreyRanger · February 2015

Nightreaver wrote: »

GreyRanger wrote: »

If you make the cool down small or, better, very small the net effect is the only critical hits that get excluded are when an AOE goes off and all the hits are essentially simultaneous.

Shock is an ST attack that consists of 3 simultaneous attacks. As long as there is ANY CD on Surge then you will never get heal from more than one of those. This essentially reduces the already lowered heal amount to only a third of that value.

1) Crit values have been lowered making it harder to attain a heal.
2) Value of the heals have been lowered by more than a third so obviously healing for much less
3) Any CD causes abilities that have DOTs to lower healing.
4) Any CD lowers heals from Shock (Sorcerer main ST attack) by 66%.
5) Any CD reduces heals from AOE to just one.

I still can't see Surge worth taking up a slot on PTS.

You are right about shock of course, I didn't think about that ability's damage coming in 3 packages. You are also right of course that any CD reduces an AOE to a single heal (which is what I surmise they are going for).

In light of the shock issue in particular I think I hope ZOS will rethink this again.

I am still in a quandary as to why ZOS wants to nerf an ability that is not over powered for the most under powered class. I wish they would share why they are making this change.

Nightreaver · February 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

The combination still seems a bit odd to me, rendering Crit Surge minimally more useful than Power Surge (10% more heals, but no Major Sorcery buff.)

Crit Surge heals for 40% of the damage
Power Surge heals for 60% of the damage. That's a 50% increase in amount healed.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

At present, I don't see many giving up Extra Spell Damage for 10% more heals.

If the addition of Magicka power is worth giving up the extra healing then I can see that as a good option..... for STAMINA builds.

But for Magicka builds, an option that only provides weapon damage and only heals off weapon Crits would be completely worthless.

So it's NOT a case of the Magicka option being the better choice. It is the ONLY choice for Magicka builds and not a very good one.

It should be
Morph 1 - Increase Magicka Damage + 60% Heal off Crit
Morph 2 - Increase Weapon Damage + 60% Heal off Crit

GreyRanger · February 2015

Nightreaver wrote: »

It should be
Morph 1 - Increase Magicka Damage + 60% Heal off Crit
Morph 2 - Increase Weapon Damage + 60% Heal off Crit

Take that option + remove the CD (in light of abilities like Flurry, Force Shock, DOT, and AOE) and I think we would be all the way "there" in terms for this one ability.

Nightreaver · February 2015

GreyRanger wrote: »

Nightreaver wrote: »

It should be
Morph 1 - Increase Magicka Damage + 60% Heal off Crit
Morph 2 - Increase Weapon Damage + 60% Heal off Crit

Take that option + remove the CD (in light of abilities like Flurry, Force Shock, DOT, and AOE) and I think we would be all the way "there" in terms for this one ability.

Completely agree.
And now that both versions of Surge have Healing as a secondary effect I have a couple more questions based on what was posted in the 1.6 Patch notes

Abilities that apply a secondary effect, such as Caltrops, will only snare the 6 targets who take full damage.

1) Does this mean that the healing would only be effected by the first 6 targets?

2) And if that is the case then is there any reason to keep the CD on the effect?

GreyRanger · February 2015

Nightreaver wrote: »

Completely agree.
And now that both versions of Surge have Healing as a secondary effect I have a couple more questions based on what was posted in the 1.6 Patch notes

Abilities that apply a secondary effect, such as Caltrops, will only snare the 6 targets who take full damage.

1) Does this mean that the healing would only be effected by the first 6 targets?

2) And if that is the case then is there any reason to keep the CD on the effect?

That makes a lot of sense, if they simply capped the heal at the 1st 6 targets that might solve the problem they were aiming at, assuming that is that the problem was.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2015

Nightreaver wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

The combination still seems a bit odd to me, rendering Crit Surge minimally more useful than Power Surge (10% more heals, but no Major Sorcery buff.)

Crit Surge heals for 40% of the damage
Power Surge heals for 60% of the damage. That's a 50% increase in amount healed.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

At present, I don't see many giving up Extra Spell Damage for 10% more heals.

If the addition of Magicka power is worth giving up the extra healing then I can see that as a good option..... for STAMINA builds.

But for Magicka builds, an option that only provides weapon damage and only heals off weapon Crits would be completely worthless.

So it's NOT a case of the Magicka option being the better choice. It is the ONLY choice for Magicka builds and not a very good one.

It should be
Morph 1 - Increase Magicka Damage + 60% Heal off Crit
Morph 2 - Increase Weapon Damage + 60% Heal off Crit

@Nightreaver‌, As of 1.61, Surge and Power Surge heals for 40%, Crit Surge heals for 50%. thus the 10% increase.

I would think even stamina build would still use the occasional magic based attack, so I still think having an increase in both will be the morph of choice vs a little more healing.

The heals simply come from Critical Strikes, they do not have to be weapon based. Since you get increase Weapon Damage from all morphs, there is little reason not to have increase Wep & Spell power.

Equally, I would think the heals would come from the primary attacks (with things like Crushing Shock taking into account all three damages), things like Elemental Ring taking in the primary hit.

My suggestion let you stay at base level skill for a minor buff in each (allowing a Major to be added via another separate skill) or let's you have a Major in the one of your choosing.

Getting to choose Power Surge and having both Majors is simply too good to pass up right now.

Nightreaver · February 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@Nightreaver‌,
As of 1.61, Surge and Power Surge heals for 40%, Crit Surge heals for 50%. thus the 10% increase.

On Live
Crit Surge heals for 65% of the damage at rank 4.

On PTS 1.6.1
Power Surge begins at 40% and remains at 40% at rank 4.
Critical Surge begins at 50% and increases to 60% at rank 4.

If I do 100 damage and then healed for 40% of that damage, I am then healed for 40 health. If I am healed for 60% of that damage, I am then healed for 60 health. 60 is a 50% increase in the amount healed over 40.

Nightreaver · February 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Equally, I would think the heals would come from the primary attacks (with things like Crushing Shock taking into account all three damages), things like Elemental Ring taking in the primary hit.

Sadly it doesn't take into account all three damages from Shock. If two or all three Crit only one procs the heal. Unless you are using a Fire staff and the burning affliction proc crits. Then none of the three main attacks will proc the heal. They will be replaced by the much smaller heal from the affliction proc.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

My suggestion let you stay at base level skill for a minor buff in each (allowing a Major to be added via another separate skill) or let's you have a Major in the one of your choosing.

I do like the suggestion of the base level ability providing both the minor Weapon buff and the minor Spell buff. At least it would usable by Sorcerers leveling a Stamina build AND Sorcerers leveling a Magicka build, not just Stamina builds as is now the case. Though my preference would still be to include a smaller Heal even in the base and then one morph offering an improved Heal with a major Weapon buff while the other offers an improved Heal with a major Spell buff.

All versions without the CD but only gaining a heal off the first 6 targets.

GreyRanger · February 2015

Removing the CD, limiting the AOE targets, and making the beginning power (pre-morph) useful to both stamina and magica builds would seem to be a solid design decision. Then the two morphs could differentiate between a magica focus and stamina focus with bigger damage buff depending on which you chose to focus on.