What are your thoughts on the B2P decision...

LuxLunae · January 2015

Please tell me truthfully why. Don't beat around the bush about this using generic reasons. Tell me why you fear the change.

I can honestly say I am happy for the change and am waiting for march 17 to come by so I can run to steam and buy it there.

Is it surprising to see a person who has not bought the game be happy about the decision?

Every year I allot myself $120 for games and such. Having this game as a subscription model does not do me any justice. So I kindly passed on buying this game because unless I can keep the constant sub up, I would not be able to play it. Now that it is a one time pay, I can easily afford it and pay the $15 when I have a lot of time on my hands.

To me this will definitely make up for the subscription payments as it will be on all 3/4 major platforms (it could have been on wii U, i mean I even was able to play this thing with my intel graphics HD 4000).

ZENIMAX ONLINE STUDIO IS NOT EA. ZENIMAX ONLINE STUDIO IS NOT EA!!!!!

There will be no paywalls or crazy things in the shop.

Although 90% of you who subbed are well off than me financially, don't you think poor people like myself should have a chance at the game as well? The model is NOT F2P or hopefully non abusive as you only get a set amount of crowns every month and cannot overcharge passed the amount like getting 100,000 crowns in one month (not confirmed).

I'll meet you in the game =D.

BBSooner · January 2015

One of many threads on the subject:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1504657/

To quote myself:

During a subscription only game: Developer focus is exclusively on trying to justify a sub to customers - their focus is on fun/diverse/interesting/long lasting content.

During a B2P/F2P game: Developer focus is split between keeping the subs of the "super-fans", and creating cash store content that will tempt players to splurge. Fun/diverse/interesting/long lasting content is no longer the single focus - instead partially or (in some long lasting MMOs cases sadly) majorly focusing what they can sell in the store.

The concern is not if the game will be different on Day 1 of B2P. There is concern for the long term toll a cash shop will have on the game.

I'm glad you budget for the game, many are not responsible in that regard. However, it's considered by some (myself included) that a subscription game offers (or at least had the potential to offer) a lot more in terms of quality and diversity to a non -sub game.

There are many b2p and f2p games available, however not many subscriptions. One could make the argument in rebuttal to your "do the poor(or those who simply don't like subscriptions) not deserve a chance" that "do they not already have the vast majority of options? "

Edit: I should add that I've accepted (however begrudgingly) the model change. This is purely for discussions sake.

firstdecan · January 2015

My upset is that ZOS has basically given up on creating a fun game for adults in order to appeal to a market that has no interest in financially supporting it. It means they've given up on making something people will pay to play, and will instead focus efforts on 'marketing' substandard content to whoever it is that actually pays for that stuff. This can be seen with the changes they are making, everything is become longer, more tedious, and more of a grind.

JamilaRaj · January 2015

Because of cash shop and DLC. Cash shop is detrimental in several ways:
a) It enables players to buy advantage over other players. ZOS can keep dronning there won't be gold or anything that you could sell, that items will only save you time, that there won't be gear, that there won't be anything you could not get in game. The facts are that by buying item that would otherwise cost you gold, you are buying gold for money, by buying anything that will save you time, you are buying better stats, gear etc., because player of same skill, playing for same amount of time, won't be able to keep up and be on same level, with same gear etc. I am neither going to be cannon fodder for premium credit card warriors nor credit card warrior.
b) Shopping sort of replaces gameplay and content. Instead of e.g. getting stuff like pets, mounts and costumes as through some game elements (quests, dungeons...), you will get them through cash shop. Even if the stuff was in game, getting it from cash shop would be so much easier it would effectively render content pointless. Updating cash shop is easy way to keep illusion of evolving game. Now I do not necessarily need or want new content added every month or two, but I definitely want developers to focus on developing fraking game, not cash shop, but, alas, with their steady revenue not being subs anymore, they can't but focus on cash shop (and DLC, I'll get to it).
c) It also replaces game mechanic. Let's assume potions, that are in cash shop now, are not there just to try it out, but that it's really for convenience. It could be then said that potions are hassle. Now if they are hassle, why not address issue on game mechanic level, like decreasing NPC vendor prices, increasing drop rate/drop points, increasing nodes (plants) density and what not? Again, shift in focus, from game mechanic to monetization of game mechanic issues. Something other sucks? Bam, solved, buy XY in cash shop. And again, please develop game, not cash shop.
Issues with DLC are similar:
a) It's P2W mechanic, because in order to sell new content, it will have to be desirable, with better rewards, better exp, better everything. Therefore, players not buying DLC won't be able to keep up, they'll have to spend significantly more time doing old zones to get same gear or whatever, or won't be able to match their paying counterparts at all.
b) New, more rewarding DLC will render older content pointless, therefore, amount of meaningful, playable content will actually decrease with every DLC release

So, no thanks.

LuxLunae wrote: »

Although 90% of you who subbed are well off than me financially, don't you think poor people like myself should have a chance at the game as well?

You are not going to get the game as well, you are going to get ESO: Crippled Tamriel Edition (TM). Players spending little to no money on sub/in cash shop are not allowed into game because ZOS is sympathetic with low income strata of society to the point they are willing to put resources into additional computing power and CS to handle them, but because...
a) Some of them in fact can be eventually, using more or less predatory tactics, lured into spending. I recommend reading articles by Ramin Shokrizade. Now again ZOS may keep promising it won't end like this, but they made themselves dependent on P2W, they do not have options anymore, they must make people cash-shop.
b) They will populate virtual world and make it more lively and appealing to paying players. After all, it's supposed to be MMORPG, not just us 0.2% premium people. ZOS would otherwise have to make content, design new zones, gameplay elements, improve NPC AI etc.
c) Most importantly, with players paying little to no money not having them (the more such players, the better), items/bonuses for cash will increase in value and be more desirable for paying players. Eg. there may appear some OP armor set dropping in DLC zone and in PvP context the less people have this set, the greater is its value and DLC zone's as well.

Is it surprising to see a person who has not bought the game be happy about the decision? Indeed it is.

Salacious · January 2015

This is a horrible IDEA. The core reason is that now we will have "those" types of players that come in, pretend to know everything, bash the game, tank the economy and then leave.

These are the players that sit in chat and are like "this game sux!!!!!" and cause the global chat and community based chat to go straight to h3ll

murtrem_ESO · January 2015

I'm more concerned with how someone who hasn't purchased the game gained access to the member forums.

LuxLunae · January 2015

Salacious wrote: »

This is a horrible IDEA. The core reason is that now we will have "those" types of players that come in, pretend to know everything, bash the game, tank the economy and then leave.

These are the players that sit in chat and are like "this game sux!!!!!" and cause the global chat and community based chat to go straight to h3ll

How can they tank the economy? Is there actually an auction house in this game? I know there is guild stores.

Tannakaobi · January 2015

Salacious wrote: »

This is a horrible IDEA. The core reason is that now we will have "those" types of players that come in, pretend to know everything, bash the game, tank the economy and then leave.

These are the players that sit in chat and are like "this game sux!!!!!" and cause the global chat and community based chat to go straight to h3ll

I disagree with you, but you do raise a good point about chat.

Suggestion, a chat filter that allows you to turn off free to play players if you are a sub.

LuxLunae · January 2015

@‌ Tannakaobi

I hope nobody hates me, I sometimes keep the new tab i named "subtitles" that only show the NPC comments. I actually forget there are people chatting in the chat.

arena25 · January 2015

Ok, I got a couple questions:

1. How is "Buy-to-Play" different from, let's say, RIFT, which has gone free to play a couple years back?
2. By "Buy-to-Play", do you mean buy stuff from store, or just you have to buy the game at Best Buy or such before you can play it?

On a side note, if they decide to roll out the PvP part of the Justice System, I'm coming for you, old Outlaws.

Morshire · January 2015

For me at least, I think that sub based model appeals to a different "gamer" than other models. That is the appeal right? (At least for me) People who are willing to pay the sub have more "invested" (don't flame the in quote words) in the game. Their focus is on driving the end game and devs respond by creating the content that will continue to make the subs "commit" their time and money. Other models tend towards cash shops. Or worse, "I can't do this, I want X for free". It is not the people personally. Most of the friends I started this game with are not willing to pay the sub. Fine by me, there are 1000's of titles they can play. ESO was not suppose to be "like" anything else, but ES titles. Everyone now is comparing it to X. I say, if you want it like X, why not go with X, it is already developed, has all the things you are looking for. Why should this game change like X so you would play it? (Not directed at any person per say, you implies whoever it applies to)
For me, the experience is better with sub mentality. And sorry to say, the entire "atmosphere" has changed on the forums since the change. Good or bad, you decide. Personally, I liked what was here, that is why I stayed. Take that away, and well....

ers101284b14_ESO · January 2015

I don't like it for several reasons

1. Cash Shop. I like to earn things in the game. All the mounts, costumes, trophies, pets, vanity stuff. That is stuff that if you put it into the game and get people wanting it then it gives your players reason to play the game. Putting that in a cash shop does not encourage play.

2. Community. Have you read ESO's facebook page? All those people who hated the game and wanted it to fail and hated anyone who enjoyed any aspect of the game at all. Well those get to be your new players. And being that it is now B2P there's nothing keeping them out. It may keep some out of the new content that you have to pay for but it will not keep them out of any current content. Not to mention those same people now have a say in the direction of the game.

3. Updates. Lets face it ZOS was still working out how the game should play but had they kept the sub would have had to keep on their 4-6 week plan and would have started releasing actual content. They announced B2P and it's already gone down to 2 confirmed updates this year. We had 5 in less than a year under the sub model 2 under the B2P

4. Changing models. No game in the history of MMO's has ever gotten better after switching models. They have made more money but they have never once gotten fundamentally better. Also only 1 game has ever done B2P (Some will Argue GW2 did also but I don't think they did) and that was GW1. So somehow we are now supposed to have faith that the company who couldn't even push an incremental patch without buggering it up is supposed to make B2P a fun and enjoyable experience for everyone which is something only 1 game has done super well.

5. Lore and Immersion. It's a huge one for the game and we see it argued about all the time. Nord's in wedding dresses, Orcs on Senche, lets face it we are about 2 cash shop updates from riding sparkly unicorns that fart rainbows.

6. Paywalls. The exact thing that ZOS and the fans say they didn't want was paywalls. Yay Orsinum!!! That will be $50 to be allowed t0 enter, Yay Imperial City!!! that will be $30 to enter, Yay Wrothgar!!!! that will be $50 to enter.

7. Pay to Win. They are already announcing "Convenience" stuff like XP boost, soul gems, and potions. As of now that is not P2W but it's not that far off either. Wouldn't be much for them to start selling advantage items because they want more money. And don't give that "But they said!!" Yeah well ZOS said a lot of stuff and it was all BullS***.

That's some of the reasons I don't want B2P and can not support it. Some of the ESO streamers have already said that they will continue to sub and won't run with anyone who isn't subbed. that's not the community I know and it's already causing a rift. And like someone said in another post "You can't patch away a business model"

So how do I feel about B2P? Obviously not very good. Of all the things that B2P will bring the only positive is more players. You know what else would have brought more players? A free weekend, and a free trial. That's why FF14 keeps gaining subs because after every single patch they give previous players a free weekend to check it out. They also have a free trial for players who might be interested. Out of all the things they could have done changing business models was probably the worst decision.

TL:DR: B2P= PPPPHHHHBBBBBTTTTTTTT

One last thing

LuxLunae wrote: »

Although 90% of you who subbed are well off than me financially, don't you think poor people like myself should have a chance at the game as well? The model is NOT F2P or hopefully non abusive as you only get a set amount of crowns every month and cannot overcharge passed the amount like getting 100,000 crowns in one month (not confirmed).

No you should not. Video Games are a hobby. Hobbies are expensive. If you can not afford the hobby you need to find another hobby or find a way to afford the hobby. I am not well off financially. I just got out of college, over 70k in debt, I rent a place and work has been stingy with the hours. It's called budgeting.

LuxLunae · January 2015

@‌ ers101284b14_ESO

calm down ok?

70K of debt? Are you a doctor? You went to MIT?

Well nevermind that. I am budgeting and by ESO changing the model I can now:

1. Pay when I have a lot of time on my hands and get the more bang for my buck.
2. When I pay for the sub for that month, I get access to all of the DLC for a month. Otherwise I stay in the original areas.
3. Pop in without a sub, see whats going on, help new players by answering random questions but not get too invested until I send 15 for another month.
4. Although there are people who can invest a lot of time into the game and level up free, I can't. So when I pay that $15 I like that % boost as I would have to play catch up either way.

ESO flexibility is kinda like my lifestyle now. Do nothing most of the time and when stuff gets real, do everything in that short time. Then rest again... and this cycle continues.

In college, I sit around read a little here, work problems a little there just getting the basics. Then when the test comes, I use the basics and hurry up go through the chapters and do all the work I need to do to pass the test. Once the test is over, I go back to a more lax state.

I unfortunately am not a human who can stay 100% most of the time so I set the pieces and line them up so that when I am ready to go 100%, everything falls into place.

Randoms:

$15 to you is a tiny bit of what you pay for, some people say they spend that on fast food but when $15 can feed me in my good ol state of Texas for 2 weeks (if you know how to cook...IRL. Another benefit is that the food is healthy and has more taste); it makes one wonder if they should throw it to subs. I had to do a double take when I was riding the bus and saw that gas was $1.76 per gallon.

However, when I get out of college, I probably will have a job paying 55-60K per year. The subs would not be a problem after that I would have an excess of money saving since I am HIGHLY FRUGAL AHAHAHAHAH
but that would mean I wouldn't play the games until fall of 2016.

rawne1980b16_ESO · January 2015

LuxLunae wrote: »

Although 90% of you who subbed are well off than me financially, don't you think poor people like myself should have a chance at the game as well?

Put simply, no.

In fact, I agree, let's not beat around the bush.

If people struggle to find £8.99 a month then they shouldn't be gaming. Find a hobby that's more suited to your price range.

LuxLunae · February 2015

@‌ rawne1980b16_ESO

I DISAGREE!!!!

Do you know what a game is? Do you know what it does? Do you know why it exists? Then you should understand why people who struggle also should have a go at a game that they can go to. A place where they can build themselves up and feel good about themselves. A place where they feel wanted or needed by a guild or group. A place where they can escape the normal bindings of reality that they were handed down when they were born.

I will say this in bold letters so everyone can see... to me

A GAME IS A PART OF LIFE!!! IT IS NEEDED TO LIVE !!!

why do we have plays? movies? books? and such?

actually, why do we dream? creating a wacky simulation of life in our heads?

Why do you game?

Spiritreaver_ESO · February 2015

LuxLunae wrote: »

What are your thoughts on the B2P decision...

I don't like it, but its a done thing so i'll just suck it up deal. And i'll deal with it because the only other game i would like to play-frankly i love everything about it but combat-so its with ESO i'll stay.

Valen_Byte · February 2015

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

I don't like it for several reasons

1. Cash Shop. I like to earn things in the game. All the mounts, costumes, trophies, pets, vanity stuff. That is stuff that if you put it into the game and get people wanting it then it gives your players reason to play the game. Putting that in a cash shop does not encourage play.

2. Community. Have you read ESO's facebook page? All those people who hated the game and wanted it to fail and hated anyone who enjoyed any aspect of the game at all. Well those get to be your new players. And being that it is now B2P there's nothing keeping them out. It may keep some out of the new content that you have to pay for but it will not keep them out of any current content. Not to mention those same people now have a say in the direction of the game.

3. Updates. Lets face it ZOS was still working out how the game should play but had they kept the sub would have had to keep on their 4-6 week plan and would have started releasing actual content. They announced B2P and it's already gone down to 2 confirmed updates this year. We had 5 in less than a year under the sub model 2 under the B2P

4. Changing models. No game in the history of MMO's has ever gotten better after switching models. They have made more money but they have never once gotten fundamentally better. Also only 1 game has ever done B2P (Some will Argue GW2 did also but I don't think they did) and that was GW1. So somehow we are now supposed to have faith that the company who couldn't even push an incremental patch without buggering it up is supposed to make B2P a fun and enjoyable experience for everyone which is something only 1 game has done super well.

5. Lore and Immersion. It's a huge one for the game and we see it argued about all the time. Nord's in wedding dresses, Orcs on Senche, lets face it we are about 2 cash shop updates from riding sparkly unicorns that fart rainbows.

6. Paywalls. The exact thing that ZOS and the fans say they didn't want was paywalls. Yay Orsinum!!! That will be $50 to be allowed t0 enter, Yay Imperial City!!! that will be $30 to enter, Yay Wrothgar!!!! that will be $50 to enter.

7. Pay to Win. They are already announcing "Convenience" stuff like XP boost, soul gems, and potions. As of now that is not P2W but it's not that far off either. Wouldn't be much for them to start selling advantage items because they want more money. And don't give that "But they said!!" Yeah well ZOS said a lot of stuff and it was all BullS***.

That's some of the reasons I don't want B2P and can not support it. Some of the ESO streamers have already said that they will continue to sub and won't run with anyone who isn't subbed. that's not the community I know and it's already causing a rift. And like someone said in another post "You can't patch away a business model"

So how do I feel about B2P? Obviously not very good. Of all the things that B2P will bring the only positive is more players. You know what else would have brought more players? A free weekend, and a free trial. That's why FF14 keeps gaining subs because after every single patch they give previous players a free weekend to check it out. They also have a free trial for players who might be interested. Out of all the things they could have done changing business models was probably the worst decision.

TL:DR: B2P= PPPPHHHHBBBBBTTTTTTTT

One last thing

LuxLunae wrote: »

Although 90% of you who subbed are well off than me financially, don't you think poor people like myself should have a chance at the game as well? The model is NOT F2P or hopefully non abusive as you only get a set amount of crowns every month and cannot overcharge passed the amount like getting 100,000 crowns in one month (not confirmed).

No you should not. Video Games are a hobby. Hobbies are expensive. If you can not afford the hobby you need to find another hobby or find a way to afford the hobby. I am not well off financially. I just got out of college, over 70k in debt, I rent a place and work has been stingy with the hours. It's called budgeting.

Agree on every point. Could not have said it better. I dont know how long I will keep playing. But, What I do know is, I will stay subbed until I have had enough. I wont play for free. I still want the game to succeed, so I will pay my monthly and when its no longer fun (or I just get pissed for the last time) I'll stop paying and walk away. If Zo$ were to be completely honest, they would say this is there last ditch effort to save a dying game. If consoles dont do well, or the population falls off next fall (like I think it will) they will just shut the lights off and all go home. GG

Morshire · February 2015

LuxLunae wrote: »

@‌ rawne1980b16_ESO

I DISAGREE!!!!

Do you know what a game is? Do you know what it does? Do you know why it exists? Then you should understand why people who struggle also should have a go at a game that they can go to. A place where they can build themselves up and feel good about themselves. A place where they feel wanted or needed by a guild or group. A place where they can escape the normal bindings of reality that they were handed down when they were born.

I will say this in bold letters so everyone can see... to me

A GAME IS A PART OF LIFE!!! IT IS NEEDED TO LIVE !!!

why do we have plays? movies? books? and such?

actually, why do we dream? creating a wacky simulation of life in our heads?

Why do you game?

The only sad part about your argument is the self centered approach in which you look at everything. So because you cannot pay, then the whole gaming industry should change to suit you. Who cares that it may not suit others. So long as you get to live your frugal lifestyle and reap all the benefits, so what right. But when anyone on this thread has tried to say the same thing about their thoughts/beliefs, you are all over it. Need I remind you, you asked the dang question. You got our answer, but you still feel some unfathomable need to convince us that your way of looking at it is best. Frankly my friend, it is not. That mentality is exactly what I wanted to avoid by having a sub based game.

But all of that is neither here nor there. It is going to happen, you get your game, we all got screwed, but hey, worked out for you right. Way to make friends. And as stated before, you already had a 1000 titles you could have chosen from that already "fit your lifestyle" but that wasn't enough. We all have to live/game your way. Well congrats. Hope your are happy with what you get. But know this, after reading this thread and the way you talk to the fellow gamers I have come to know, who were already here, I will avoid you like the plague in the game...if I even stay.

ZOS_MichelleA · February 2015

Hello, everyone. First, we would like to assure you all that someone who has not purchased the game does not have access to these forums. Secondly, this thread is not constructive and subsequent replies have further deteriorated the conversation. As such, we will be closing it. In the future, please keep the Code of Conduct in mind when posting. Thank you.