Mages and Fighters Guild

SanderBuraas · January 2015

As the new skill line, Legerdemain, was introduced in the latest update, it got me to think how the current guild skill lines are too easily obtained. You simply have to talk to a person in the Mages or Fighters guild building, and you are gladly accepted into the guild without any type of qualification - in comparison to the new skill line, where you actually have to commit crime for it to appear. There should be improvement as to how the guild skill lines are obtained.

A trial of sort, would be fitting to join a guild, similar to how in Skyrim you actually have to demonstrate a spell before you are qualified to join the Mages guild, which makes sense. Why would a non-magic user be able to join a guild designated for magic and spells?

There are many ways as to go about this, but I do feel that the current way to join the guilds are too simple and uncreative. If you have any suggestions, feel free to share.

Hortator Mopa · January 2015

Smepic wrote: »

As the new skill line, Legerdemain, was introduced in the latest update, it got me to think how the current guild skill lines are too easily obtained. You simply have to talk to a person in the Mages or Fighters guild building, and you are gladly accepted into the guild without any type of qualification - in comparison to the new skill line, where you actually have to commit crime for it to appear. There should be improvement as to how the guild skill lines are obtained.

A trial of sort, would be fitting to join a guild, similar to how in Skyrim you actually have to demonstrate a spell before you are qualified to join the Mages guild, which makes sense. Why would a non-magic user be able to join a guild designated for magic and spells?

There are many ways as to go about this, but I do feel that the current way to join the guilds are too simple and uncreative. If you have any suggestions, feel free to share.

Entry is 300 crowns. Der.

Spiritreaver_ESO · January 2015

Smepic wrote: »

As the new skill line, Legerdemain, was introduced in the latest update, it got me to think how the current guild skill lines are too easily obtained. You simply have to talk to a person in the Mages or Fighters guild building, and you are gladly accepted into the guild without any type of qualification - in comparison to the new skill line, where you actually have to commit crime for it to appear. There should be improvement as to how the guild skill lines are obtained.

A trial of sort, would be fitting to join a guild, similar to how in Skyrim you actually have to demonstrate a spell before you are qualified to join the Mages guild, which makes sense. Why would a non-magic user be able to join a guild designated for magic and spells?

There are many ways as to go about this, but I do feel that the current way to join the guilds are too simple and uncreative. If you have any suggestions, feel free to share.

Interesting idea and i am in no way against it.

I just always thought the Mage's and Fighter's guilds were just in dire need of members in the time setting of ESO, 2nd era - as opposed to the relative stability of College of Winterhold and the Companions in the 4th era.

starkerealm · January 2015

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

As the new skill line, Legerdemain, was introduced in the latest update, it got me to think how the current guild skill lines are too easily obtained. You simply have to talk to a person in the Mages or Fighters guild building, and you are gladly accepted into the guild without any type of qualification - in comparison to the new skill line, where you actually have to commit crime for it to appear. There should be improvement as to how the guild skill lines are obtained.

A trial of sort, would be fitting to join a guild, similar to how in Skyrim you actually have to demonstrate a spell before you are qualified to join the Mages guild, which makes sense. Why would a non-magic user be able to join a guild designated for magic and spells?

There are many ways as to go about this, but I do feel that the current way to join the guilds are too simple and uncreative. If you have any suggestions, feel free to share.

Interesting idea and i am in no way against it.

I just always thought the Mage's and Fighter's guilds were just in dire need of members in the time setting of ESO, 2nd era - as opposed to the relative stability of College of Winterhold and the Companions in the 4th era.

From that example, it's worth pointing out that the College isn't associated with The Mage's Guild. They actually say as much explicitly a couple times in the story. The actual Mage's Guild is in pretty sorry shape by the time Skyrim happens, due to the fracturing of the Empire.

Apparently The Fighter's Guild is in a similar situation. There's some comments about how they don't have a presence in Skyrim. But, I vaguely remember occasional snippets about how their numbers were badly depleted in the war.

Both groups are mentioned in Skyrim, but if that was your first introduction to the setting, you wouldn't be very likely to pick up on them. Much like how the Morag Tong's name just kinda gets dropped occasionally without explanation. Or the weird moment where you can have a Tong member admit their real affiliation to you if you're a member of the Thieves Guild... even if you're also a member of The Dark Brotherhood.

SanderBuraas · January 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

As the new skill line, Legerdemain, was introduced in the latest update, it got me to think how the current guild skill lines are too easily obtained. You simply have to talk to a person in the Mages or Fighters guild building, and you are gladly accepted into the guild without any type of qualification - in comparison to the new skill line, where you actually have to commit crime for it to appear. There should be improvement as to how the guild skill lines are obtained.

A trial of sort, would be fitting to join a guild, similar to how in Skyrim you actually have to demonstrate a spell before you are qualified to join the Mages guild, which makes sense. Why would a non-magic user be able to join a guild designated for magic and spells?

There are many ways as to go about this, but I do feel that the current way to join the guilds are too simple and uncreative. If you have any suggestions, feel free to share.

Interesting idea and i am in no way against it.

I just always thought the Mage's and Fighter's guilds were just in dire need of members in the time setting of ESO, 2nd era - as opposed to the relative stability of College of Winterhold and the Companions in the 4th era.

From that example, it's worth pointing out that the College isn't associated with The Mage's Guild. They actually say as much explicitly a couple times in the story. The actual Mage's Guild is in pretty sorry shape by the time Skyrim happens, due to the fracturing of the Empire.

Apparently The Fighter's Guild is in a similar situation. There's some comments about how they don't have a presence in Skyrim. But, I vaguely remember occasional snippets about how their numbers were badly depleted in the war.

Both groups are mentioned in Skyrim, but if that was your first introduction to the setting, you wouldn't be very likely to pick up on them. Much like how the Morag Tong's name just kinda gets dropped occasionally without explanation. Or the weird moment where you can have a Tong member admit their real affiliation to you if you're a member of the Thieves Guild... even if you're also a member of The Dark Brotherhood.

I didn't go in-depth about the lore and story behind the Mages and Fighters guild, but simply referred to the event of which you had to demonstrate a spell to qualify to join - and considering most eso players have played Skyrim, they would recognize it.

As for Fighters guild, there could be some sort of arena where you had to prove your worth.

Nestor · January 2015

One of the things I loved about Morrowind is you were not going to join a guild unless you were going to take the time to level the skills the guild would use. While you could easilly join a guild, advancement was not going to happen unless you built up the right skills.

I am not sure if entry into a Guild should have any restriction, but advancement in a guild should have some restrictions. Whether that be a certain number of quests done, or certain number of actions done or a skill set development is something to discuss. It's kind of weird that Mages advancement is based on books that you read and not spell prowess or quests. At least with the Fighters advancement is based on the number of Undead and Daedra you kill, as that is their purpose. Although, it's pretty much what the Undaunted do, just with Group Dungeons.

However all my characters join MG/FG as each has a passive that is useful if not essential to completing some quests/achievements. Most join the Undaunted just because.

Merlin13KAGL · January 2015

I can go to a recruiter and ask for a pamphlet on Navy Seals, too.

Doesn't mean I'm gonna pass boot camp.

You still have to do things to gain rank. Guessin' rank 0 MG and FG types probably get some unpleasant jobs - especially if they choose to stay there.

Morshire · January 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I can go to a recruiter and ask for a pamphlet on Navy Seals, too.

Doesn't mean I'm gonna pass boot camp.

You still have to do things to gain rank. Guessin' rank 0 MG and FG types probably get some unpleasant jobs - especially if they choose to stay there.

Actually no....a couple quests, gather some books, keep the skills traited while you level and "BABAM" level 10 champion. Simple as pie really. Undaunted seems the be the one requiring effort. I would like to see something more along these lines. And comparing this to Skyrim is weak, IMO, considering the timeline, which means it should be more in line with Morrowind. Now If I remember correctly, your levels played a role in your advancement as well as gaining skills in line with said "guild"? It has been awhile. But remember, the game has gotten...Hmph "less complicated"...since the earlier versions. It feels to me that the FG and MG where put in cause they symbolize a major component of the game, but that we can expect them to be completely changed if/when someone figures out why (Other than the passives/skills) we even do them. I mean, even in Skyrim, you became the "leader" of said guild. An accomplishment, a title, a house, status...Just as we have an emoporer for PVP, where is the top Mage, or Fighter? Just my humble opinion.

TheShadowScout · January 2015

Personally I for one would like to see some "guild progression" option tied to skills and such. Not just joining the fighters or mages guild because they are so desperate for warm bodies they'll take anyone...

Of course, we have the guilds as they stand now, so it would be hard to change anything without vexing players. But... there could always be stuff added...

What about a "guild mastery" level? Giving access to advanced guild abilities, but with limitations as to who can choose them?
Like... fighers guild mastery, requiring a minimum of two weapon skill lines (not counting staves) with all skills morphed & maxed? Or medium/heavy armor skill of 50? (or both?) Or possibly 20+ ability points in health or stamina?
And... mages guild mastery, requiring morphing and maxing All the mages guild skills as well as at least one class skill line? And maybe also light armor? Or maybe 20+ ability points in magica?

Possibly with passives that synergize well not only with other "guild" abilities, but with the requirement abilities as well? Fighters guild mastery helping All weapon fighting skills, not just fighting daedra & undead? Mages guild mastery enhancing ALL spellcasting, not just mages guild abilities?

And of course, those masteries would have to be exclusive... as in, can be attained in only one guild? (including the someday coming thieves guild and dark brotherhood...)

That way, everyone could join every guild for the basic skills, but gain mastery skill line & passives in only one guild matched to their skill set... leading the players to make their choices and customize their character accordingly...

SanderBuraas · January 2015

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Personally I for one would like to see some "guild progression" option tied to skills and such. Not just joining the fighters or mages guild because they are so desperate for warm bodies they'll take anyone...

Of course, we have the guilds as they stand now, so it would be hard to change anything without vexing players. But... there could always be stuff added...

What about a "guild mastery" level? Giving access to advanced guild abilities, but with limitations as to who can choose them?
Like... fighers guild mastery, requiring a minimum of two weapon skill lines (not counting staves) with all skills morphed & maxed? Or medium/heavy armor skill of 50? (or both?) Or possibly 20+ ability points in health or stamina?
And... mages guild mastery, requiring morphing and maxing All the mages guild skills as well as at least one class skill line? And maybe also light armor? Or maybe 20+ ability points in magica?

Possibly with passives that synergize well not only with other "guild" abilities, but with the requirement abilities as well? Fighters guild mastery helping All weapon fighting skills, not just fighting daedra & undead? Mages guild mastery enhancing ALL spellcasting, not just mages guild abilities?

And of course, those masteries would have to be exclusive... as in, can be attained in only one guild? (including the someday coming thieves guild and dark brotherhood...)

That way, everyone could join every guild for the basic skills, but gain mastery skill line & passives in only one guild matched to their skill set... leading the players to make their choices and customize their character accordingly...

Interesting, definitely something that should be considered. I feel that the Mages and Fighters guild offer very little detail and various stuff to do within them. As for the mastery skill line, they should not be limited to just one per character - as you are supposed to be able to obtain every skill line in the game except for class lines. You should be able to obtain mastery within Mages and Fighters guild, but that would require you to actually level the skill lines and work for it.

TheShadowScout · January 2015

I would say only one mastery should be allowed, to encourage character diversity, make the players make some choices instead of everyone striving to master all to get the maximum power.
Such decisions are what makes characters more interesting after all... if you have built up one who could master both (or more, there could be undaunted mastery, thieves guild mastery, brotherhood masters...), which one to choose? What will suit your playstyle most?
Much better IMO then being able to master everything on a single character... (after all, you can always make another for a different way to go... the upcoming champion system will have an greater reward for all the ones alting after all)

SanderBuraas · January 2015

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I would say only one mastery should be allowed, to encourage character diversity, make the players make some choices instead of everyone striving to master all to get the maximum power.
Such decisions are what makes characters more interesting after all... if you have built up one who could master both (or more, there could be undaunted mastery, thieves guild mastery, brotherhood masters...), which one to choose? What will suit your playstyle most?
Much better IMO then being able to master everything on a single character... (after all, you can always make another for a different way to go... the upcoming champion system will have an greater reward for all the ones alting after all)

The thing about this is that many people often change their build, as you class does not define your character. Even if you choose to become a Vampire, you are able to cure yourself for then to become a Werewolf. As for the guilds, you are able to join both, so why should you not be able to learn mastery within both?

Creating a new character simply because you chose the wrong mastery and you wish to change it is silly, especially in an online game where you spend a lot of time on your one character.

I understand what you mean, but the only locked optional for your character should be your class, and the rest should be fully customizable and adjustable.

rawne1980b16_ESO · January 2015

Smepic wrote: »

If you have any suggestions, feel free to share.

I have one.

You need to go back a couple of years and bring this up before it hits alpha because most of us have already finished those quest lines now. It's a bit late for an entry test.

SanderBuraas · January 2015

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

If you have any suggestions, feel free to share.

I have one.

You need to go back a couple of years and bring this up before it hits alpha because most of us have already finished those quest lines now. It's a bit late for an entry test.

Do you not think I have finished the lines before either? Even the tutorial was revamped in 1.6. It is never too late for change.

Ysne58 · January 2015

I think the way to join is fine. I'd like to see more added to each in the way of further content and progression.

Merlin13KAGL · January 2015

Morshire wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I can go to a recruiter and ask for a pamphlet on Navy Seals, too.

Doesn't mean I'm gonna pass boot camp.

You still have to do things to gain rank. Guessin' rank 0 MG and FG types probably get some unpleasant jobs - especially if they choose to stay there.

Actually no....a couple quests, gather some books, keep the skills traited while you level and "BABAM" level 10 champion. Simple as pie really. Undaunted seems the be the one requiring effort. I would like to see something more along these lines. And comparing this to Skyrim is weak, IMO, considering the timeline, which means it should be more in line with Morrowind. Now If I remember correctly, your levels played a role in your advancement as well as gaining skills in line with said "guild"? It has been awhile. But remember, the game has gotten...Hmph "less complicated"...since the earlier versions. It feels to me that the FG and MG where put in cause they symbolize a major component of the game, but that we can expect them to be completely changed if/when someone figures out why (Other than the passives/skills) we even do them. I mean, even in Skyrim, you became the "leader" of said guild. An accomplishment, a title, a house, status...Just as we have an emoporer for PVP, where is the top Mage, or Fighter? Just my humble opinion.

@Morshire‌ , UIndaunted (originally, anyway) was probably the most intensive to level - those achievements come neither fast nor easy. Though, with pledges, it's been simplified somewhat.

MG is about quests and books only, slotted skills do not advance the line, any more than having undaunted skills or FG skills advance those lines.

Agreed, the overemphasis on books hardly justifies mastery, and finishing off the quest line seems very lacking.

I do agree, you shouldn't gain (higher) rank by happening across things in the wilderness. A couple low level ones, sure, but not to Level 10.

Your title (audible) never changes either, you're as "Adept" at level 0 as you are at level 10.

You are also correct in the advancement requirements for the standalones - it was equally possible to much them up and fall out of favor with a particular guild location, something not possible here.

Digiman · January 2015

Smepic wrote: »

I didn't go in-depth about the lore and story behind the Mages and Fighters guild, but simply referred to the event of which you had to demonstrate a spell to qualify to join - and considering most eso players have played Skyrim, they would recognize it.

As for Fighters guild, there could be some sort of arena where you had to prove your worth.

If you played Morrowind or Oblivion you would know that being a member was just as simply as saying "Can I become one". As for their skills, remember you can't have them point blank, you have to actually go out and find lore books to reach the level to get your ability or kill daedra in the fighter guild.

Along with their quest lines you definitely prove yourself for advancement when battling wits for the mad god and stopping Molag Bal from gaining a powerful weapon for the fighters guild while uncovering a traitor.

Sorry but your suggestion seems moot given the requirements for advancement in those guilds. There was also nothing wrong with a person being a part of either guild. Though I never really saw this with NPC's the protagonist seemed to be the only one capable of advancing quickly in all.

SanderBuraas · January 2015

Digiman wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

I didn't go in-depth about the lore and story behind the Mages and Fighters guild, but simply referred to the event of which you had to demonstrate a spell to qualify to join - and considering most eso players have played Skyrim, they would recognize it.

As for Fighters guild, there could be some sort of arena where you had to prove your worth.

If you played Morrowind or Oblivion you would know that being a member was just as simply as saying "Can I become one". As for their skills, remember you can't have them point blank, you have to actually go out and find lore books to reach the level to get your ability or kill daedra in the fighter guild.

Along with their quest lines you definitely prove yourself for advancement when battling wits for the mad god and stopping Molag Bal from gaining a powerful weapon for the fighters guild while uncovering a traitor.

Sorry but your suggestion seems moot given the requirements for advancement in those guilds. There was also nothing wrong with a person being a part of either guild. Though I never really saw this with NPC's the protagonist seemed to be the only one capable of advancing quickly in all.

Morrowind and Oblivion are old games. Why should we strive to copy content from these games when it is possible to create change? Change is good, and I feel that the Mages and Fighters guild in eso are lacking somewhat.

Digiman · January 2015

Well considering this is during an era when both guilds were newly formed and this game is set way before any other ES its more logical that they would be doing their all to gain new members.

You can't argue with it. Also change for the sake of change isn't a decent reason.

Eitherway throughout them you obviously prove you are worthy of the guild, both with the method in which you increase the skill line and the main quest it gives.

technohic · January 2015

You have the skill line, but you don't really have much to go on for using it. I had to kill a ton of undead to get the fighters guild stuff leveled. Of course; a ton pales in comparison of tons of tons of mass murder I've had to do to level through VR levels.

Digiman · January 2015

technohic wrote: »

You have the skill line, but you don't really have much to go on for using it. I had to kill a ton of undead to get the fighters guild stuff leveled. Of course; a ton pales in comparison of tons of tons of mass murder I've had to do to level through VR levels.

Well take solace in the fact that daedra don't die, they can only be banish at which point they have to find their way through the void to get back again.

technohic · January 2015

Digiman wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

You have the skill line, but you don't really have much to go on for using it. I had to kill a ton of undead to get the fighters guild stuff leveled. Of course; a ton pales in comparison of tons of tons of mass murder I've had to do to level through VR levels.

Well take solace in the fact that daedra don't die, they can only be banish at which point they have to find their way through the void to get back again.

Ahh my conscious is now clean. Thank you sir.

Morshire · January 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Morshire wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I can go to a recruiter and ask for a pamphlet on Navy Seals, too.

Doesn't mean I'm gonna pass boot camp.

You still have to do things to gain rank. Guessin' rank 0 MG and FG types probably get some unpleasant jobs - especially if they choose to stay there.

Actually no....a couple quests, gather some books, keep the skills traited while you level and "BABAM" level 10 champion. Simple as pie really. Undaunted seems the be the one requiring effort. I would like to see something more along these lines. And comparing this to Skyrim is weak, IMO, considering the timeline, which means it should be more in line with Morrowind. Now If I remember correctly, your levels played a role in your advancement as well as gaining skills in line with said "guild"? It has been awhile. But remember, the game has gotten...Hmph "less complicated"...since the earlier versions. It feels to me that the FG and MG where put in cause they symbolize a major component of the game, but that we can expect them to be completely changed if/when someone figures out why (Other than the passives/skills) we even do them. I mean, even in Skyrim, you became the "leader" of said guild. An accomplishment, a title, a house, status...Just as we have an emoporer for PVP, where is the top Mage, or Fighter? Just my humble opinion.

@Morshire‌ , UIndaunted (originally, anyway) was probably the most intensive to level - those achievements come neither fast nor easy. Though, with pledges, it's been simplified somewhat.

MG is about quests and books only, slotted skills do not advance the line, any more than having undaunted skills or FG skills advance those lines.

Agreed, the overemphasis on books hardly justifies mastery, and finishing off the quest line seems very lacking.

I do agree, you shouldn't gain (higher) rank by happening across things in the wilderness. A couple low level ones, sure, but not to Level 10.

Your title (audible) never changes either, you're as "Adept" at level 0 as you are at level 10.

You are also correct in the advancement requirements for the standalones - it was equally possible to much them up and fall out of favor with a particular guild location, something not possible here.

I agree, I was being over simplified about the leveling (except the skills traited part). I think the general consensus is that they are lacking. I haven't played some of the ES titles in some time, but I remember the guilds were a task, and completing them was an "accomplishment". The guilds now seem.....Heck, I didn't even realize I had maxed leveled the mage's guild. I mean, I didn't go out of my way for any part of it and had to actually ask why I was stuck at 10. That seems lackluster at best.

And I agree that not "copying" former titles of ES, or allowing change could, in theory, happen with the guilds. But it still needs to make sense, right. So if the guilds are consider "fledgling" at this point in the timeline, then your "advancement" could directly reflect you doing things to build the fighter's guilds into what people have become accustomed to in later titles. I mean, when building an omelets, you have to break eggs. So it wouldn't have to be "like" the other ES titles, right? They were "established" guilds by then. Say for fighter's, you could have to face certain Daedra to gain the renown that the fighter's guild needs. Going to certain towns, being plagued by them and "saving" the city. Something similar for Mage's. There is plenty of room to play there with the story.

And back a year ago, I was hoping that they had future "plans" for the guild.....Still hoping. Right now, it just feels like some dev felt "obligated" to include them, but could not be bothered with turning them into a part of the actual game.

stevepdodson_ESO888 · January 2015

Basically they should have called this new skill line the Thieves Guild, as that's what it is really.