Surge vs Entropy?

olsborg · January 2015

So whats the difference between the two? Do they cost the same? I know they last the same duration and does the same buffwise.

MADshadowman · January 2015

Entropy is cheaper, but needs a target. Surge costs more, but can be used at any time.

I prefer surge.

Darlgon · January 2015

You mean, roll a Sorc vs any class Mages Guild?

Flaminir · January 2015

Entropy is cheaper...
Does damage (Something we're lacking so is a good thing)...
Has a small heal (Something we need)
Has passives to buff magicka & regen
Passively increases max health 5%

You will only need to use surge when there is an enemy around, so the whole 'target' issue is pretty much irrelevant... when you need the damage buff, there is a target.

There is literally no reason to use Surge anymore in its current state, entropy does the same & so much more.

R.I.P. Another Sorc skill.

MADshadowman · January 2015

if you wanna heal yourself or others, it's good to have something that always works and not just if an enemy is around. it buffs my heals any time i need them. Plus: i can activate it without popping out of stealth. It is not useless at all, no matter how often anyone screams it in chat or in the forums.

Flaminir · January 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

if you wanna heal yourself or others, it's good to have something that always works and not just if an enemy is around. it buffs my heals any time i need them. Plus: i can activate it without popping out of stealth. It is not useless at all, no matter how often anyone screams it in chat or in the forums.

Whilst I'm absolutely 110% behind the notion of play how you want etc... this is a very niche use for an ability on a bar.

The healing you are talking about must be a resto staff heal.... the surge buff of these isn't exactly huge now following the '%damage increase' nerf to make it worthwhile...

PLUS... if you need your heals buffed then there must be an enemy around which you can use entropy on... if there is no enemy around then why would you need a small buff to a heal when you aren't in danger?

Awesome if you still have a niche for using surge... I'm genuinely really glad you are still happy, but for 99% of people this has been nerfed into uselessness & entropy now gives the same buffs as well as a whole list of other benefits.

Locke_ESO · January 2015

Yeah I agree I really can't see any reason to use it. Also if the buff is identical to the one from Entropy then it seems Sorcerers are losing something that gave us a bit of an edge. Any Destro + Mage guild character can now equal our staff damage.

MADshadowman · January 2015

OK, let me explain this in a little more detail.

I'm always more interested in abilities that work under any circumstances, than those which are restricted in a certain way. That's why i like radiant aura better than repentance. I can activate it whenever i need it. in or out of combat.

This is the same reason why i prefer power surge over entropy. I can use it anytime i want. sometimes i'm running around the pvp groups and heal people who get in trouble, even though i'm not a dedicated healer. But when i do this i like to stay away from enemies and just focus on helping others survive.

With entropy i have to go to the front, expose myself to the enemy, only to use this skill and then get back to the wounded people.

With surge, i can just pop it anytime i want and keep the heals up.

Next reason would be a surprise attack. I can use surge from stealth without getting visible, so i can really start with the attack i need first, in this case crystal fragments. If i hit a mob or a player with entropy first, they know i'm there. A mob will start running towards me, a fast player would block or pop a shield before the following crystal fragment would hit.

It's all about your play style. Some prefer one thing, others prefer something else. But saying something is completely useless only because you don't know how or want to use it, is a little ingnorant.

P.s.:

Many people say it's better because of the DoT and the HoT, but let's keep it real, those values are not high enough to be a game changer. 2 of my light attacks do more damage in a shorter time than the entropy DoT and sorc heals are strong now, so i prefer to use a resto staff with combat prayer, to get some awesome instant heal instead of a lousy HoT. But if it fits your play style better, please use it as much as you want.

Oh, and if you like DoTs, you might want to check out the soul trap morph consuming trap. You could use entropy and this in combination for some more DoT power and get 10% of all your resources back when the target dies in the 10 second time frame. Good for sustain in non-1v1 situations

GreyBrow · January 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

if you wanna heal yourself or others, it's good to have something that always works and not just if an enemy is around. it buffs my heals any time i need them. Plus: i can activate it without popping out of stealth. It is not useless at all, no matter how often anyone screams it in chat or in the forums.

YOU are the reason the dev's don't believe that sorcs are complete garbage like 90% of the game and don't buff anything other than trash pug pet builds.

Please stop defending sorcs and saying their skills are completely fine when the VAST majority of the game knows that sorcs are worthless.

MADshadowman · January 2015

GreyBrow wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

if you wanna heal yourself or others, it's good to have something that always works and not just if an enemy is around. it buffs my heals any time i need them. Plus: i can activate it without popping out of stealth. It is not useless at all, no matter how often anyone screams it in chat or in the forums.

YOU are the reason the dev's don't believe that sorcs are complete garbage like 90% of the game and don't buff anything other than trash pug pet builds.

Please stop defending sorcs and saying their skills are completely fine when the VAST majority of the game knows that sorcs are worthless.

YOU are the reason i get annoyed when i read the forums. Are you really saying it's MY fault? Is this really what you think?

First of all:

This is a discussion about 2 skills, only one of them is a sorc class skill. I just explained why this skill is not useless.

Secondly:

Nobody said sorc skills are fine. Sorcs need a lot of love to become a really good class everyone can use and be happy with.

Last but not least:

If your sorc now sucks because you can't have crit surge anymore, then you're doing a lot of things wrong to begin with and probably never had a good build. I could easily drop surge from my bar without any problems. for fighting i mostly don't use it anyway.

Now, please leave this discussion if you don't have anything constructive to add.

Thank you.

Flaminir · January 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

If your sorc now sucks because you can't have crit surge anymore, then you're doing a lot of things wrong to begin with and probably never had a good build.

I should like to point out that critical surge was the corner stone of basically the highest DPS sorc build up until the changes in 1.6.

So to say that by using it people were 'doing things wrong'.... and 'probably never had a good build' is really REALLY wrong....

I was about to post a comment to say how good your 3:40 comment was... I didn't agree with all of it and there were a few bits of 1.6 info that it sounds like you haven't seen yet around Entropy, but thought the 'play how you like' sentiment, and a few interesting theorycrafting ideas were really good interesting & constructive.

But that last comment of yours is really quite ironic!

I do get where you are coming from... I do the same in PvP sometimes... offheal and hanging back...

But the tiny boost to those heals by using the new version of surge is a drop in the ocean compared to the major self heal & DPS loss nerfs.... this is for the majority of sorcs btw... as I said, genuinely happy that you are still happy (The more happy people in the game the better)...

I'm not saying I like Entropy... (I want crit surge as it is now, but boosting spell power to match the staff changes)... but with 1.6 in its current state, 95% of people will probably use entropy instead as the benefits outweigh the negatives by a HUGE margin for the majority.

The keyword being 'Majority'.... it would be a very dull world if we all agreed on everything!

MADshadowman · January 2015

I'm just saying that the new version of surge made my build so much better, cause staffs scale off magicka and surge boosts that, so i don't have to rely on a HoT or crit surge heals anymore, i can finally use real strong heals to heal myself to full in 3 seconds, in combination with the strong damage shields, this is really a boost in survivability and this is what matters in pvp. dps is more a pve thing and you still get a decent boost no matter what skill you like to use. It aint get more than that, and that's ok.

Another tip for those who want more dps: use entropy or surge and combat prayer to gain an additional 10% of extra damage.

In the end, with some adjustments to your build you will roughly reach the same quality of dps you had before. Just embrace it.

Flaminir · January 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

I'm just saying that the new version of surge made my build so much better, cause staffs scale off magicka and surge boosts that, so i don't have to rely on a HoT or crit surge heals anymore, i can finally use real strong heals to heal myself to full in 3 seconds, in combination with the strong damage shields, this is really a boost in survivability and this is what matters in pvp. dps is more a pve thing and you still get a decent boost no matter what skill you like to use. It aint get more than that, and that's ok.

Another tip for those who want more dps: use entropy or surge and combat prayer to gain an additional 10% of extra damage.

In the end, with some adjustments to your build you will roughly reach the same quality of dps you had before. Just embrace it.

Ok... I think there are a few genuine misconceptions here...

1. The OLD version of surge boosted resto staff heals by more than the new 1.6 version. The old version was around a 40-50% boost to the staff damage which they scale off... its now just 20% in 1.6 so the boost from surge is half as big. Taking the mechanics of the skill aside for a moment.... mathematically surge is simply not stronger than it was before... its weaker.
2. They have buffed the heal from Blessing of restoration... that's separate... don't confuse the boost to that as being from the new surge... it isn't.

P.S. They also nerfed Combat Prayer... the damage buff was reduced from 10% down to 8.

MADshadowman · January 2015

davedwildebeast wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

I'm just saying that the new version of surge made my build so much better, cause staffs scale off magicka and surge boosts that, so i don't have to rely on a HoT or crit surge heals anymore, i can finally use real strong heals to heal myself to full in 3 seconds, in combination with the strong damage shields, this is really a boost in survivability and this is what matters in pvp. dps is more a pve thing and you still get a decent boost no matter what skill you like to use. It aint get more than that, and that's ok.

Another tip for those who want more dps: use entropy or surge and combat prayer to gain an additional 10% of extra damage.

In the end, with some adjustments to your build you will roughly reach the same quality of dps you had before. Just embrace it.

Ok... I think there are a few genuine misconceptions here...

1. The OLD version of surge boosted resto staff heals by more than the new 1.6 version. The old version was around a 40-50% boost to the staff damage which they scale off... its now just 20% in 1.6 so the boost from surge is half as big. Taking the mechanics of the skill aside for a moment.... mathematically surge is simply not stronger than it was before... its weaker.
2. They have buffed the heal from Blessing of restoration... that's separate... don't confuse the boost to that as being from the new surge... it isn't.

P.S. They also nerfed Combat Prayer... the damage buff was reduced from 10% down to 8.

But staffs scale off magicka now which makes the heals for a full magicka sorc way stronger and with surge they become really good. for me the heals are way stronger than they used to be in 1.5

Messy1 · January 2015

I really hope that ZOS can tweak the sorc to be a little more competitive with other classes in PvP and to be more viable in general in PvE.

As a magic user class it seems to me that the sorc skills should work synergistically with the mages guild skills. Sorcs should get slight boosts in stats to mages guild abilities. Maybe even have the option for morphs that aren't available to other classes.

In fact, I think it would be very cool if each class had morphs to skill line abilities that other classes do not have access to. It would make each class more unique allow players customize their builds a lot more. Just an idea.

Nightreaver · January 2015

Surge - Increases Weapon Damage by 20% for seconds.
So contrary to what @MADshadowman says it IS completely worthless, useless as in it does absolutely nothing, nada, zilch for anyone with a Magicka build. If you have a Magicka build and want one of the morphs then you must invest points and spend time leveling this ability even though the base ability does nothing for you other than take up a slot on your ability bar. They would need to change the base ability to Crit heals so the base ability would actually be useful to both Magicka and Stamina builds. And then have one morph add weapon damage while the other adds spell damage so both builds have damage + healing available to them, not just Stamina builds.

If you have any abilities that use DOTs then even the Crit Heal is useless in its new form. On live those DOTs provide a small heal in addition to your regular heals. In 1.6 those small, inconsequential heals are often in place of your regular heals.

Entropy gives the same 20% damage buff for about 1/4 the cost AND adds a heal. Something only Stamina builds gets with Surge. My biggest issue with Entropy is that until 1.6 Surge was one of the very few Sorcerer abilities worth putting on your bar. Now it is being replaced by yet another non-Sorcerer ability. Would really like to see an actual Sorcerer ability worthy of putting on our ability bar.
Another Sorcerer ability option is Dark Exchange. It doesn't require a target like Entropy, costs Stamina instead Magicka and can heal for about 10x the amount of Entropy over the same amount of time AND restores Magicka as well. The downside is that you lose the 20% damage buff and you are snared during the 4 seconds it takes to channel the ability. If ZOS would just remove the channeling requirement then this could be a viable replacement for Surge.

MADshadowman wrote: »

Last but not least:
If your sorc now sucks because you can't have crit surge anymore, then you're doing a lot of things wrong to begin with and probably never had a good build. I could easily drop surge from my bar without any problems. for fighting i mostly don't use it anyway.
Now, please leave this discussion if you don't have anything constructive to add.
Thank you.

I removed Surge from my bar and can still solo Upper Craglorn VR13 groups in either a pet build or without pets. Doesn't change the fact that ZOS took a core Sorcerer ability, one of the very few Sorcerer abilities worth using and made some horrible changes to it making it worthless to many Sorcerers.

Surge was once my favorite Sorcerer ability. Now it's not even worth a slot on my bar.

Holycannoli · January 2015

I want to know how Degeneration + Overload works in 1.6. Both are buffed. I also wonder if Overload can proc crit surge's heal in 1.6. It says it scales off weapon damage and stamina if they're higher but that doesn't mean it's considered weapon damage.

MADshadowman · January 2015

Nightreaver wrote: »

Surge - Increases Weapon Damage by 20% for seconds.
So contrary to what @MADshadowman says it IS completely worthless, useless as in it does absolutely nothing, nada, zilch for anyone with a Magicka build. If you have a Magicka build and want one of the morphs then you must invest points and spend time leveling this ability even though the base ability does nothing for you other than take up a slot on your ability bar. They would need to change the base ability to Crit heals so the base ability would actually be useful to both Magicka and Stamina builds. And then have one morph add weapon damage while the other adds spell damage so both builds have damage + healing available to them, not just Stamina builds.

If you have any abilities that use DOTs then even the Crit Heal is useless in its new form. On live those DOTs provide a small heal in addition to your regular heals. In 1.6 those small, inconsequential heals are often in place of your regular heals.

Entropy gives the same 20% damage buff for about 1/4 the cost AND adds a heal. Something only Stamina builds gets with Surge. My biggest issue with Entropy is that until 1.6 Surge was one of the very few Sorcerer abilities worth putting on your bar. Now it is being replaced by yet another non-Sorcerer ability. Would really like to see an actual Sorcerer ability worthy of putting on our ability bar.
Another Sorcerer ability option is Dark Exchange. It doesn't require a target like Entropy, costs Stamina instead Magicka and can heal for about 10x the amount of Entropy over the same amount of time AND restores Magicka as well. The downside is that you lose the 20% damage buff and you are snared during the 4 seconds it takes to channel the ability. If ZOS would just remove the channeling requirement then this could be a viable replacement for Surge.

MADshadowman wrote: »

Last but not least:
If your sorc now sucks because you can't have crit surge anymore, then you're doing a lot of things wrong to begin with and probably never had a good build. I could easily drop surge from my bar without any problems. for fighting i mostly don't use it anyway.
Now, please leave this discussion if you don't have anything constructive to add.
Thank you.

I removed Surge from my bar and can still solo Upper Craglorn VR13 groups in either a pet build or without pets. Doesn't change the fact that ZOS took a core Sorcerer ability, one of the very few Sorcerer abilities worth using and made some horrible changes to it making it worthless to many Sorcerers.

Surge was once my favorite Sorcerer ability. Now it's not even worth a slot on my bar.

Power surge is the morph a sorc wants, boosts your spell power. And of course you gotta level that skill til you can morph it... nothing new, isn't it?

I agree, that nerfing an important skill that no one really saw as op is not a good thing. But have you tried this yet? i use it and i like it. Sue me.

But sorcs have other great skills, and reading that you only see surge as THE good sorc skill kinda hurts my little sorc heart. Sorcs work just fine without it. Less dps - yes, but dps is not what makes a sorc good. Like i said i currently don't use it and my sorc performs quite well without it.

The real problem is not the change to surge, the real problems are:

No class heal. Even a small to medium self heal would go a long way.
Only 1 instant cast/instant damage ability in the whole class tree.

That one ability is mages wraith. Besides lightning flood, which doesn't count, cause it's a ground target aoe, it's the only skill you can cast instantly and that does instant damage, and the damage is very low since it's not meant to be used as a dps dealer, it's a finisher or something you can weave in between other attacks.

Crystal fragments has a 1 second cast time, even though it feels longer. If it procs, you got an instant cast, but it's easy to see and dodge when it flies over a long distance.

Daedric curse is instant cast, but the damage is delayed by 3.5 seconds, so it can be purged in time easily.

Streak technically is an instant cast/instant damage ability but you can't use it on enemies/groups without getting in melee range, which is dangerous.

That's why many sorcs use a destro staff with crushing shock. It's instant cast, does a good amount of damage, interrupts and can't be reflected.

But sorcs really need something in their class tree that is fast and responsive and does more damage than mages wraith. This would help sorcs a lot and would make them more competitive.

Nightreaver · January 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

Power surge is the morph a sorc wants, boosts your spell power. And of course you gotta level that skill til you can morph it... nothing new, isn't it?

What is new is that the base ability was previously useful to all Sorcerers. An important consideration for leveling Sorcerers. Sadly that is no longer the case as the base ability is completely useless to Magicka builds.

MADshadowman wrote: »

I agree, that nerfing an important skill that no one really saw as op is not a good thing. But have you tried this yet? i use it and i like it. Sue me.

Yes I tried both versions, both in a pet spec and in a build without pets. Couldn't find a way to justify a slot on my ability bar in any form. I found Entropy, Hardened Ward and Dark Exchange all to be better options. True, I could achieve bigger heals when no enemy is engaged but then do I really need bigger self heals with no enemy engaged?

MADshadowman wrote: »

But sorcs have other great skills, and reading that you only see surge as THE good sorc skill kinda hurts my little sorc heart. Sorcs work just fine without it. Less dps - yes, but dps is not what makes a sorc good. Like i said i currently don't use it and my sorc performs quite well without it.

Well if I hurt your little Sorc heart by what I said then I guess we are even. I feel the same way about what you said. If I have no interest in playing a Healer or a Tank and now you tell me that DPS is not what makes a Sorc good then what is left for me?

MADshadowman wrote: »

Like i said i currently don't use it and my sorc performs quite well without it.
The real problem is not the change to surge, the real problems are:
[*] No class heal. Even a small to medium self heal would go a long way.

So you're saying you perform quite well without Surge and then say the real problem is no class heal???
We had a good self heal. It was called Critical Surge. The one you are claiming to perform quite well without. If you want a heal without engaging an enemy you can also use Regeneration. A heal that ironically worked real well to heal both the caster and the pet while soloing until ZOS decided to improve pets which they started by nerfing that ability to heal pets.

MADshadowman wrote: »

[*] Only 1 instant cast/instant damage ability in the whole class tree.
That one ability is mages wraith, it's the only skill you can cast instantly and that does instant damage, and the damage is very low since it's not meant to be used as a dps dealer, it's a finisher or something you can weave in between other attacks.

The problem with Mages Wrath is that it's really only good during when the target is below 20% health during the execute phase which seems to be lower than other class execute phase abilities for whatever reason. We need something to get us to that final 20%.

MADshadowman wrote: »

That's why many sorcs use a destro staff with crushing shock. It's instant cast, does a good amount of damage, interrupts and can't be reflected.

The new problem with that coincidently also has to do with Surge. Shock is actually three simultaneous attacks. On Live this works fine with Surge with each of the attacks having a chance to proc the heal from Surge. Now on PTS If Surge was a single attack then any crit would provide a nice heal from Surge. But since it is divided into 3 attacks then the heal will only be one third the size. And if you are proccing the fire DOT then in all likelihood you will be getting a heal equivalent to about 20 health on Live. I get more than that from Health regen.

MADshadowman · January 2015

Nightreaver wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Power surge is the morph a sorc wants, boosts your spell power. And of course you gotta level that skill til you can morph it... nothing new, isn't it?

What is new is that the base ability was previously useful to all Sorcerers. An important consideration for leveling Sorcerers. Sadly that is no longer the case as the base ability is completely useless to Magicka builds.

MADshadowman wrote: »

I agree, that nerfing an important skill that no one really saw as op is not a good thing. But have you tried this yet? i use it and i like it. Sue me.

Yes I tried both versions, both in a pet spec and in a build without pets. Couldn't find a way to justify a slot on my ability bar in any form. I found Entropy, Hardened Ward and Dark Exchange all to be better options. True, I could achieve bigger heals when no enemy is engaged but then do I really need bigger self heals with no enemy engaged?

MADshadowman wrote: »

But sorcs have other great skills, and reading that you only see surge as THE good sorc skill kinda hurts my little sorc heart. Sorcs work just fine without it. Less dps - yes, but dps is not what makes a sorc good. Like i said i currently don't use it and my sorc performs quite well without it.

Well if I hurt your little Sorc heart by what I said then I guess we are even. I feel the same way about what you said. If I have no interest in playing a Healer or a Tank and now you tell me that DPS is not what makes a Sorc good then what is left for me?

MADshadowman wrote: »

Like i said i currently don't use it and my sorc performs quite well without it.
The real problem is not the change to surge, the real problems are:
[*] No class heal. Even a small to medium self heal would go a long way.

So you're saying you perform quite well without Surge and then say the real problem is no class heal???
We had a good self heal. It was called Critical Surge. The one you are claiming to perform quite well without. If you want a heal without engaging an enemy you can also use Regeneration. A heal that ironically worked real well to heal both the caster and the pet while soloing until ZOS decided to improve pets which they started by nerfing that ability to heal pets.

MADshadowman wrote: »

[*] Only 1 instant cast/instant damage ability in the whole class tree.
That one ability is mages wraith, it's the only skill you can cast instantly and that does instant damage, and the damage is very low since it's not meant to be used as a dps dealer, it's a finisher or something you can weave in between other attacks.

The problem with Mages Wrath is that it's really only good during when the target is below 20% health during the execute phase which seems to be lower than other class execute phase abilities for whatever reason. We need something to get us to that final 20%.

MADshadowman wrote: »

That's why many sorcs use a destro staff with crushing shock. It's instant cast, does a good amount of damage, interrupts and can't be reflected.

The new problem with that coincidently also has to do with Surge. Shock is actually three simultaneous attacks. On Live this works fine with Surge with each of the attacks having a chance to proc the heal from Surge. Now on PTS If Surge was a single attack then any crit would provide a nice heal from Surge. But since it is divided into 3 attacks then the heal will only be one third the size. And if you are proccing the fire DOT then in all likelihood you will be getting a heal equivalent to about 20 health on Live. I get more than that from Health regen.

I said this a couple of times before. Surge was not a self heal. A self heal is an ability that you can use anytime and that heals you reliably. The healing from surge is a secondary effect you couldn't count on, if you weren't using crit rush.

When a zerg comes after you and you need healing, do you think popping surge and crit rushing into the zerg is a good idea?

And yes i perform well without it and yes i say surge is not the problem. If we had a real self heal, the change to surge wouldn't mean more squishiness, it would just mean less damage in a dps situation, but with staffs scaling off magicka and the new build options, your attacks are going to hit harder than before, so power surge will roughly get you to the same performance you were used to. If you have weapon power on armor or jewelry, better swap it out for some spell power and crank up your magicka, this will benefit you a lot.

i really don't wanna continue this conversation forever. i just thought i give you some good news and tell you that magicka builds still perform very well and even better with the changes. this might not be true for any build, but all magicka based builds should have a good chance to become or stay pretty good in 1.6.

Your builds might need some tweaking here and there but you will figure it out and make the best of it. So far we have survived every nerf to our class and this can only make us stronger, better players.

But yes, ZOS: 5-10% more boost would hurt nobody. So maybe adjust those values a little to give sorcs a little more oomph in the damage department.

Digiman · January 2015

@MADshadowman are you arguing sorcerers need a steady proper self heal?

I get that the Surge would still be a great damage boost. I liked the spell power of Power Surge as it made it more enticing for PvE. But now the healing compenent for Critical surge is a 1 second CD, I don't see many Destro staff magicka builds picking this for a DPS over stamina melee builds

I get your saying you can heal more effectively as you are restoration staff user, but the point I think others are making is that magika based skill class for pure DPS PvP builds took a huge hit for no reason. As it wasn't even close to OP when compared to other skill lines on other classes.

A1exeR · January 2015

Zos kill surge. Now it need only for stamina build and hybrid build.
In magic dd build build surge suck. Entropy is much better.
You want use Power Surge for healing? Healing without enemy near you? LOL
Sorc could good heal in 1.5, because sorc have Surge. It give him more weapon damage -> more heal. Now all bad.
DK have ability with 30% bonus for heal. What have sorc? Nothing!
In 1.5 we have dps less then DK and NB. Now we have a chance to be the worst of all.

MADshadowman · January 2015

A1exeR wrote: »

Zos kill surge. Now it need only for stamina build and hybrid build.
In magic dd build build surge suck. Entropy is much better.
You want use Power Surge for healing? Healing without enemy near you? LOL
Sorc could good heal in 1.5, because sorc have Surge. It give him more weapon damage -> more heal. Now all bad.
DK have ability with 30% bonus for heal. What have sorc? Nothing!
In 1.5 we have dps less then DK and NB. Now we have a chance to be the worst of all.

You guys really don't get that you can support and heal others without being near an enemy. wounded players tend to run back to get out of range, healers and supporters pick those people up and heal or shield them up. Or if i decide to jump off a wall to quickly get to a fight, i can pop surge before i jump down, and the second i hit the ground i can heal myself very fast and be ready to fight.

How come you're all so uninspired?

Morvul · January 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

How come you're all so uninspired?

How come you don't understand how the skills work?

if you want to use surge to improve your resto-staff heals: then 1.5 surge did it better.
if you want to use surge to gain self-healing via damage: then 1.5 surge did it better
if you want to use surge to improve your destruction staf damage: then 1.5 surge did it better

was that simple enough?

Flaminir · January 2015

Morvul wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

How come you're all so uninspired?

How come you don't understand how the skills work?

if you want to use surge to improve your resto-staff heals: then 1.5 surge did it better.
if you want to use surge to gain self-healing via damage: then 1.5 surge did it better
if you want to use surge to improve your destruction staf damage: then 1.5 surge did it better

was that simple enough?

I've been trying to be as diplomatic as possible... but you just hit the nail on the head!

MADshadowman · January 2015

davedwildebeast wrote: »

Morvul wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

How come you're all so uninspired?

How come you don't understand how the skills work?

if you want to use surge to improve your resto-staff heals: then 1.5 surge did it better.
if you want to use surge to gain self-healing via damage: then 1.5 surge did it better
if you want to use surge to improve your destruction staf damage: then 1.5 surge did it better

was that simple enough?

I've been trying to be as diplomatic as possible... but you just hit the nail on the head!

Ok, then try to play 1.5 when 1.6 goes live. good luck with that.

Neven seen such stubborn behavior. The skill is going to change, just embrace it and make the best out of it and stop your qq'ing. i explained why the skill is still good, but all you see is the change and not what this skill has to offer in 1.6.

Then stop using it for god sake and don't act as if the whole class is useless now. You got a champion system, use your points to improve whatever needs to be improved.

You guys are totally mad with your tunnel vision. you only see this one thing and refuse to take a look at the system as a whole.

You have stat points, skill points, champion points, armor sets, weapon sets, jewelry sets. You have all these options to optimize your build and make it work better than ever, for crying out loud, USE THEM!

Merlin13KAGL · January 2015

Still debating. Found an alternative to be survivable in previously survivable situations so far. Need to test in some of the uglier group dungeons/trials first though (Wayrest Garron / Spindle Praxin).

The side effect I've seen so far just makes battle feel like it requires less finesse, believe it or not.

Not as much blocking necessary, heavy's feel downright awkward vs light attacks. Resource management not as difficult as it first appeared to be.

Went 1v1 yesterday with a DK for quite some time where I'd probably been down (out or resources) on live, so it's going to be doable, just differently.

This was shortly after @MADshadowman‌ dropped a Meteor/Ice Comet on my head... Thanks for that, btw

I think part of the problem now is that the old DPS #'s (even x10) don't necessarily apply, so it's hard to know where you need to be at.

My numbers feel low, but stuff is dropping and I'm not.

Too soon to tell.

It concerns me at this point that the finesse doesn't feel like it's there as much. Maybe it's just because it's new and clunky.

I just don't want to get cornered into needing a specific build (Pets or restro) to be class effective.

Again, we'll see.

A1exeR · January 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

You have stat points, skill points, champion points, armor sets, weapon sets, jewelry sets. You have all these options to optimize your build and make it work better than ever, for crying out loud, USE THEM!

All have access to it, but each class has its own features.
And the main feature sorc that he is bad in all roles (bad heal, bad tank, bad dd).

MADshadowman · January 2015

A1exeR wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

You have stat points, skill points, champion points, armor sets, weapon sets, jewelry sets. You have all these options to optimize your build and make it work better than ever, for crying out loud, USE THEM!

All have access to it, but each class has its own features.
And the main feature sorc that he is bad in all roles (bad heal, bad tank, bad dd).

Heals are not bad anymore if you use a resto staff, shields are still strong and with the new champion system and armor changes, sorcs can actually wear heavy without too many disadvantages, so they can be pretty tanky. damage wise, well... there's not much a sorc has to offer, but i this is not a deal breaker for me. Sorcs have great mobility, not just to escape from dangerous situations, but also to use it as an active fighting method. That makes them special.

Give it some time, i really think sorcs will shine, even without the love of ZOS

MADshadowman · January 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Still debating. Found an alternative to be survivable in previously survivable situations so far. Need to test in some of the uglier group dungeons/trials first though (Wayrest Garron / Spindle Praxin).

The side effect I've seen so far just makes battle feel like it requires less finesse, believe it or not.

Not as much blocking necessary, heavy's feel downright awkward vs light attacks. Resource management not as difficult as it first appeared to be.

Went 1v1 yesterday with a DK for quite some time where I'd probably been down (out or resources) on live, so it's going to be doable, just differently.

This was shortly after @MADshadowman‌ dropped a Meteor/Ice Comet on my head... Thanks for that, btw

I think part of the problem now is that the old DPS #'s (even x10) don't necessarily apply, so it's hard to know where you need to be at.

My numbers feel low, but stuff is dropping and I'm not.

Too soon to tell.

It concerns me at this point that the finesse doesn't feel like it's there as much. Maybe it's just because it's new and clunky.

I just don't want to get cornered into needing a specific build (Pets or restro) to be class effective.

Again, we'll see.

You are right.

Oh and sorry for the meteor, but you gotta love those cute little fellas

VarilRau · January 2015

I dont mind having entropy as an option to surge, at the moment it is way better on pts.
Entropy: You get 5% hp, it boosts the damage of your weapon attacks and spells, also a small dot and heal.

Surge magicka morph: gain weapon damage and spell damage
Surge stamina morph: gain weapon damage and heal on crits, one heal per second on random damage, usually your dots.

first morph is downright useless, on what KIND of a build would you realistically use it? Its like hull tanking in EVE. Increase your heals when you use bow/resto staff?

Second morph is useless as well, you are better having anything else in there, the base buff is decent, the morph is useless. It most likely will heal you 20/s. Thats way less than my health REGEN.

I see they thought that with the loss of AOE caps you can in theory hit everything and be invulnerable. Just like that emperor/bats build did before it got nerfed (and rightly so). My suggestion would be to still have the heal be the main ability, have it cap out at 6 targets (the ones you hit for full damage). As it used to, reduce healing by people wearing impen (it lowers our healing gained already in pvp, instead of making it useless as it was before in pvp).

Then have the morphs for the skill be for either weapon damage or spell damage.

It would be useful, but you would still think whether you want to have this skill, or entropy with its 5% more HP buff. This will make sorcerers have to choose between squishy no-need for target damage buff(surge) and not so squishy need a target damage buff.

It would be an option, instead of the version we have now where you HAVE to go with entropy be you a sorc or not.