Ultimate Change actually going through?

NobleX35 · January 2015

For those of you who are not aware of the up-coming changes to ultimate generation I leave this here:

[*] Adjusted how Ultimate generation is gained to make it more even across different classes and builds:
When you damage an enemy with a light or heavy attack, you will receive a buff that grants three Ultimate per second for eight seconds.
This buff is refreshed with each light or heavy attack.

If you heal an ally that has the Ultimate gain buff, you will also receive the Ultimate gain buff for eight seconds.
This only works if the ally being healed was not at full health prior to the heal.

Abilities that previously gave Ultimate will now provide the Minor Heroism buff that will give you additional Ultimate over time.

Now I personally hate this change, and I'm sure I'm not alone on this. I think that this will this will just slow game-play down and have an over-all negative impact on the state of the game.

With that said, I can understand why the developers are implementing a change to ultimate generation in general. Ultimate generation is a bit extreme at the moment, and kind of hard to understand how it actually works. I can also understand that they want to do something that will keep ultimate gains controlled and as well as being easier for the player base to understand.

While it would be nice if ultimate generation stayed the way it currently is, and they just simply tweaked ultimate costs, I realize that that is not going to happen, so what I propose is a simple change to the current mechanic:

1 - The player has dealt any sort of damage to a target via skills or light/heavy attack.
2 - While in combat, the player has healed a player other than themselves
3 - The player recently blocked an incoming attack

Bonus - performing one of the following actions will now provide the Minor Heroism that is listed in the patch notes (1 extra ultimate per second)
* - The player recently activated a synergy
* - The player recently performed a successful dodge roll/CC break.
* - Abilities that previously gave Ultimate will now provide the Minor Heroism buff that will give you additional Ultimate over time.

This change will still keep ultimate gains controlled, but actually benefits all 3 roles in a much more meaningful and beneficial way. It also provides incentives to try to play or learn to play more skillfully.

Lynx7386 · January 2015

The ultimate change is good for tanks and healers (at least healers that didnt abuse out of combat healing to gain ultimate), and bad for damage dealers. I'm of the opinion, especially since I primarily play as a tank, that the change is good.

However, I'm also disappointed that they chose to go this route with the change rather than keeping it "skill based". Ultimates were always supposed to be something that more skillful players got to use more often (now, dont confuse this with the current situation we have, which has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with damage and area damage output), and instead of keeping the focus on that they're making it easy for everyone to use ultimates, and simply putting an artificial cooldown on them (despite the claim that this game would never have cooldowns, lol at that).

They should've just seperated ultimate gain from damage entirely and instead significantly increase the ultimate gain from dodging, blocking, interrupting spells, healing allies, or specific abilities that were designed to generate ultimate.

jaygraeb14a_ESO · January 2015

I think its an absolutely BRILLIANT change. This causes people to DROP their stupid 100% shield block and actually have holes in their defense.

Good job Zen! Keep it up.

Asgari · January 2015

jaygraeb14a_ESO wrote: »

I think its an absolutely BRILLIANT change. This causes people to DROP their stupid 100% shield block and actually have holes in their defense.

Good job Zen! Keep it up.

Weaving in light attacks is not hard at all especially doing it before a roll dodge or after a big heal and go back to blocking

NobleX35 · January 2015

jaygraeb14a_ESO wrote: »

I think its an absolutely BRILLIANT change. This causes people to DROP their stupid 100% shield block and actually have holes in their defense.

Good job Zen! Keep it up.

This change will hardly have an impact on your complaint here because the buff lasts for a set time, so you drop you block for half a second and then wait for the timer to refresh. This system is stupid and involves no skill what-so-ever.

Honestly I'd prefer just a simple cool-down mechanic than this horrible idea.

Flynch · January 2015

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The ultimate change is good for tanks and healers (at least healers that didnt abuse out of combat healing to gain ultimate), and bad for damage dealers. I'm of the opinion, especially since I primarily play as a tank, that the change is good.

However, I'm also disappointed that they chose to go this route with the change rather than keeping it "skill based". Ultimates were always supposed to be something that more skillful players got to use more often (now, dont confuse this with the current situation we have, which has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with damage and area damage output), and instead of keeping the focus on that they're making it easy for everyone to use ultimates, and simply putting an artificial cooldown on them (despite the claim that this game would never have cooldowns, lol at that).

They should've just seperated ultimate gain from damage entirely and instead significantly increase the ultimate gain from dodging, blocking, interrupting spells, healing allies, or specific abilities that were designed to generate ultimate.

Although I do agree with the sentiment, i'll play Devil's Advocate - the issue is that if good players get a reward (the ulti) and bad players (I use that term loosely) don't get that reward, then the gap between good and bad will increase even more.

Good players will pretty much always trump bad players - so the reward for playing well is a personal benefit rather than a well balanced benefit.

Alphashado · January 2015

I don't like it. You basically have to start combat with a light/heavy attack if you want to maximize ultimate generation. It's awkward and forces you to adjust/change your play style.

I didn't mind the change when I read about it, but now having actually tested it, I strongly dislike it.

Emma_Overload · January 2015

jaygraeb14a_ESO wrote: »

I think its an absolutely BRILLIANT change. This causes people to DROP their stupid 100% shield block and actually have holes in their defense.

Good job Zen! Keep it up.

LOL, so let me get this straight.... you think it's "BRILLIANT" that the whole flow of the game has been slowed down, and ultimates rendered useless because we can't count on having them available, just so PVP whiners have one less thing to whine about? Really???

stumpy999 · January 2015

has it made a big difference to the feel of the game on PTS? I'm not a great user of Ulti outside of pvp so it's not something I'd really notice

ben_ESO5 · January 2015

I had absolutely no trouble getting ultimate (in combat of course) on PTS out in Cyrodil. In fact, I was expecting it to come up only rarely with the new system, but in a sustained battle, it was quite the opposite -- I was pretty surprised at how quickly it was back up.

I do need to do more solo content though to compare to group combat...but the crying about Ults being rendered useless is just ridiculous.

Dracane · January 2015

The change is very nice in my opinion. But they should make it so, that killing monsters also gives a small amount of Ultimate. This is a bit annoying.

Joy_Division · January 2015

I really dislike the contrived mechanic of a light / heavy attack trigger ultimate generation. It disrupts the natural flow of combat, sometimes forcing players to count to 8 in their head and then do something they otherwise would not do. Not to mention this is exploitable...people are going to intentionally light attack stuff they would not normally do just to get ultimate.

I also would rather there be a reintroduction of a incentive/skilled based component to ultimate gain (like getting a minor ultimate buff). This would not be tied to critical hits (because it is not skill based), but stuff like activating synergies, interrupting enemies, healing an ally below 25% health, executing an enemy, etc. I find it distasteful that I can make a light attack then put down my mouse, eat a hamburger for 8 seconds, and yet still gain the same amount of ultimate as a player who meaningfully contributed.

Emma_Overload · January 2015

stumpy999 wrote: »

has it made a big difference to the feel of the game on PTS? I'm not a great user of Ulti outside of pvp so it's not something I'd really notice

Yes, it definitely makes a difference. If you drop a Negate on one pack of mobs and kill them in 30 seconds, you won't have a another Negate ready for the next mob... and there's NOTHING you can do about it!

Emma_Overload · January 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

I can make a light attack then put down my mouse, eat a hamburger for 8 seconds

You know, if you keep doing this, your mouse is going to get really gross.

Gorthax · January 2015

If you havent tested this on PTS then dont QQ. It is actually really good change! The pvp side of it also seen great performance increase. I have no problems dropping my ultis at a normal rate/slightly above normal. It is a perfect change and the only people I ever see crying about it are people who made their builds revolve around spamming their ultimate. So you cant drop 5-7 SoM before the original went away.......who cares lol

The entire game just feels way different now in such a good way!

nerevarine1138 · January 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

stumpy999 wrote: »

has it made a big difference to the feel of the game on PTS? I'm not a great user of Ulti outside of pvp so it's not something I'd really notice

Yes, it definitely makes a difference. If you drop a Negate on one pack of mobs and kill them in 30 seconds, you won't have a another Negate ready for the next mob... and there's NOTHING you can do about it!

Well, it's an ultimate ability. It was supposed to feel special, and it certainly doesn't feel all that special when I can use my Veil on every other group of enemies.

Sharkano · January 2015

Don't like it at all. Tanks or melee who need to perma-block tough bosses can't generate ultimates, while ranged types do it easily. Dumb change, for no good reason.

Sallington · January 2015

Whatever stops people from getting 3 batswarms off in a 30-40 second fight is a step forward in my book.

I'd go so far as, once you leave combat, you lose all ultimate generated.

Feidam · January 2015

The change is nice. You won't be spamming ultimates til the end of days anymore. As dps or heals I've zero issues keeping up my ultimate generation. It really isn't hard or tedious to use a light or heavy attack to keep it going. It is just differant.

NobleX35 · January 2015

Gorthax wrote: »

If you havent tested this on PTS then dont QQ. It is actually really good change! The pvp side of it also seen great performance increase. I have no problems dropping my ultis at a normal rate/slightly above normal. It is a perfect change and the only people I ever see crying about it are people who made their builds revolve around spamming their ultimate. So you cant drop 5-7 SoM before the original went away.......who cares lol

The entire game just feels way different now in such a good way!

The only people who won't find this change a bad idea are people who have no real skill/knowledge of the game. Do you realize what will happen in PvP now? Everyone will use a bow for light attacks to build ultimate at range, and if you don't use a bow you're automatically put at a disadvantage because your not able to build ultimate like others. You should not be forced into using a bow/resto staff just to gain ultimate and be on the same playing field as everyone else.

Did you even read my original post and the suggestions I presented? I realize that the developers wanted to change the system to make gaining ultimate more controllable and easier to understand, but they took it too far and dumbed it down to a ridiculous level. This new system will do nothing but slow the combat down and make it and make it feel less natural (this part can be managed, but it still shouldn't feel that way regardless).

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

stumpy999 wrote: »

has it made a big difference to the feel of the game on PTS? I'm not a great user of Ulti outside of pvp so it's not something I'd really notice

Yes, it definitely makes a difference. If you drop a Negate on one pack of mobs and kill them in 30 seconds, you won't have a another Negate ready for the next mob... and there's NOTHING you can do about it!

Well, it's an ultimate ability. It was supposed to feel special, and it certainly doesn't feel all that special when I can use my Veil on every other group of enemies.

I'm really sick of hearing this argument. A lot of ultimates are basically just another skill that may or may not even be as good as some of your resource skills. Their are only a few ultimates could actually be considered ultimate, and even then, they don't deserve a 5minute cooldown.

Feidam · January 2015

You are not forced into using bow or resto staff for ultimate gain PVP. Melee stamina builds are doing very well and if you managed to sneak attack someone you can open up with a very solid hit that starts your ultimate generation. Even then nothing is sayin you have to start the fight with an ability to gen ultimate. It adds a little more strategy to any given fight which is good.

Also, it does not take 5 mins to generate ultimate. Less hyperbolic statements would prove a point better.

NobleX35 · January 2015

Feidam wrote: »

You are not forced into using bow or resto staff for ultimate gain PVP. Melee stamina builds are doing very well and if you managed to sneak attack someone you can open up with a very solid hit that starts your ultimate generation. Even then nothing is sayin you have to start the fight with an ability to gen ultimate. It adds a little more strategy to any given fight which is good.

Also, it does not take 5 mins to generate ultimate. Less hyperbolic statements would prove a point better.

I'm sure you will see a lot more bows and resto staffs once this goes live, because they will have the advantage of being able to gain ultimate at range and healing people who just got the buff from being at range...that's just how these things end up working out.

And it's not necessarily a hyperbolic statement. Assume your using Standard of Might, which just received an ultimate cost increasing bringing to 250. Now if you have perfect timing on your light attacks, it would take you 83.333 seconds (which is just shy of 1.5 minutes) to fully charge your ultimate. In the majority of the game, you will never fill your ultimate that quickly. So, you then need to factor in the time that exists in-between conflicts. Which will easily start to increase the amount of time It will take to fill your ultimate. For high costs ultimates's, a cooldown of 4-5minutes will be pretty common (primarily while questing).

Joejudas · January 2015

So they made the most useful ults for PvE completely out of reach with increased cost and less ult gain....but they made Dragonleap and Batswarm better.....hahahahahahahah does anyone else find the irony there.

Feidam · January 2015

GothicPython wrote: »

Feidam wrote: »

You are not forced into using bow or resto staff for ultimate gain PVP. Melee stamina builds are doing very well and if you managed to sneak attack someone you can open up with a very solid hit that starts your ultimate generation. Even then nothing is sayin you have to start the fight with an ability to gen ultimate. It adds a little more strategy to any given fight which is good.

Also, it does not take 5 mins to generate ultimate. Less hyperbolic statements would prove a point better.

I'm sure you will see a lot more bows and resto staffs once this goes live, because they will have the advantage of being able to gain ultimate at range and healing people who just got the buff from being at range...that's just how these things end up working out.

And it's not necessarily a hyperbolic statement. Assume your using Standard of Might, which just received an ultimate cost increasing bringing to 250. Now if you have perfect timing on your light attacks, it would take you 83.333 seconds (which is just shy of 1.5 minutes) to fully charge your ultimate. In the majority of the game, you will never fill your ultimate that quickly. So, you then need to factor in the time that exists in-between conflicts. Which will easily start to increase the amount of time It will take to fill your ultimate. For high costs ultimates's, a cooldown of 4-5minutes will be pretty common (primarily while questing).

I've been playing on the test server and it is not taking me long at all to generate ultimate. And you can not seriously be adding the time it takes from mob to mob or from cutscenes into that number. Also, just spamming heals will not generate ultimate, unless you heal someone that has been damaged. if folks start doing that to generate ultimate before wading into the fray in pvp their group is going to be hurting. I'm able to fire a meteor about every minute or so if combat is steady. Nova not to much further behind. The change only prevents you from having an ultimate ready for every fight if you are constantly using the the ultimates. There are a few that charge faster now that will see some playtime too now.

DisgracefulMind · January 2015

I'm not sure about other classes, but as a DK I haven't had any problems gaining ultimate; however, I am running the Blood Spawn set. I have modified my build, though, to include the use of Fossilize, which grants me 2 ultimate per successful cast. That, combined with my use of igneous shield, can successfully grant me 4 ultimate if I combo the two by CC'ing my opponent with fossilize, then popping my shields. This constant flow, combined with my Blood Spawn proc, allows my Take Flight ultimate to pop rather quickly. Mind you, I weave in light and heavy attacks often, particularly when I go full out offensive assault with my burning embers and flame lash combos, so I'm keeping the ultimate gain buff up at all times. I suppose I could use a fossilize + obsidian shard combo to add in even more ultimate gain, but I prefer to still allow myself a gap closer on my bar just in case. This is, of course, more of a 1v1-2 build, but it's been quite effective. A heavy armor DK and I (being all light armor still) had a near hour long duel last night on PTS, and even he (or she) was able to use their ultimate quite often. I would say I used Take Flight a good 15 times and my Shifting Standard perhaps 4 times. So, in my opinion, if you're paying attention to your passives, and making sure to keep your ultimate gain up, you should be completely fine with your ultimates.

EDIT:

I just wanted to add that I'm extremely ENJOYING these ultimate changes. I feel that it allows players to explore their class and weapon skills to a broader extent. I've been having so much fun reconstructing builds that are effective without ultimate reliance. I encourage you all to do the same and not doom this new ultimate gain right away.

Alphashado · January 2015

I want to use a light/heavy when it feels natural or practical. I do not want to do it as an opener. I want to open with the spells and rotations that are most powerful and natural to my play style.

Now rather than using fun/powerful skills as an opener, I am forced to use a light/heavy attack if I want maximum ultimate generation.

It sucks constantly thinking about it during combat. "Oh dammit I forgot to swing my sword an now I've wasted all that time"

I know it sounds silly, but I just don't like the way it feels.

Feidam · January 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

I want to use a light/heavy when it feels natural or practical. I do not want to do it as an opener. I want to open with the spells and rotations that are most powerful and natural to my play style.

Now rather than using fun/powerful skills as an opener, I am forced to use a light/heavy attack if I want maximum ultimate generation.

It sucks constantly thinking about it during combat. "Oh dammit I forgot to swing my sword an now I've wasted all that time"

I know it sounds silly, but I just don't like the way it feels.

I don't open with light or heavy attack most of the time.

kongkim · January 2015

Think its a really good ideer and will let all be able use a ulti now. And not only let the ones focus on gaining unti to spam them.

nerevarine1138 · January 2015

People talking about not using light or heavy attacks may have missed some of the ability revisions that make them extremely effective options during combat. I'm having a lot of fun playing with the revamped Nightblade Haste ability, which now charges up some massive damage for me if I focus on sustained light/heavy attacks for a brief period.

DisgracefulMind · January 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

I want to use a light/heavy when it feels natural or practical. I do not want to do it as an opener. I want to open with the spells and rotations that are most powerful and natural to my play style.

Now rather than using fun/powerful skills as an opener, I am forced to use a light/heavy attack if I want maximum ultimate generation.

It sucks constantly thinking about it during combat. "Oh dammit I forgot to swing my sword an now I've wasted all that time"

I know it sounds silly, but I just don't like the way it feels.

Forget opening with a light or heavy, do your first attack then weave in a light attack, continue. I haven't been opening with light or heavy attacks, and my ultimate gain is perfect.

Alphashado · January 2015

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I want to use a light/heavy when it feels natural or practical. I do not want to do it as an opener. I want to open with the spells and rotations that are most powerful and natural to my play style.

Now rather than using fun/powerful skills as an opener, I am forced to use a light/heavy attack if I want maximum ultimate generation.

It sucks constantly thinking about it during combat. "Oh dammit I forgot to swing my sword an now I've wasted all that time"

I know it sounds silly, but I just don't like the way it feels.

Forget opening with a light or heavy, do your first attack then weave in a light attack, continue. I haven't been opening with light or heavy attacks, and my ultimate gain is perfect.

Yes I get it. I just don't like it. I have rotations that I LIKE to use that don't include a light or heavy attack and the mob is dead by the end of the combo. So now I have to intentionally think about interrupting the effective combos I use just to make sure my ult is charging.

It's not that it's hard or something. I just don't like the way it's forcing me to change my style.

And it's another example of pvp issues changing PVE.