Did the game need this big rebalancing act?

Maulkin · January 2015

Before you jump on me, this is not a complain thread at all.

Alright, so the game at launch was very unbalanced, kinda expected for a new MMO launch. For the next 10 months they have been tinkering with balance and while it certainly wasn't perfect, it was definitely better compared to launch.

My question is, how come ZOS decided to go for the nuclear approach instead of continuing with their approach of small, incremental changes? The reason why that surprises me is because:
a) It takes huge development time
b) It's not what they said they would do (small, incremental changes)
c) When so many things change at once you have a huge risk of creating even more imbalance than you had before

I'm not against this big rework, but as of v1.5 I felt that with some good buffs to Heavy Armor, some reduction to the overall rate of ult generation and some changes to block casting the game would have been in a very good shape.

What do you think?

Beesting · January 2015

. I have played over 60 days on my char so like 1500 hours but was leveling slowly because i was waiting for someone to catch up.

Now i am having a blast doing the pledges and the trials and i am getting pretty good at playing my char. Was hoping to get certain sets as bop drops and really looking forward to dsa and stuff.

With the changes of 1.6 i feel like my char has gotten the news he has a terminal disease and will die in 6 weeks. It really feels like being on death row without having committed any crime.

If i could go back in time i would have rushed to end game so i would not feel i am missing out on so much. I guess i am not the only one that feels like this.

After playing skyrim i was really looking forward to this game and i have made some nice friends playing it, but i was not prepared for the "lol i pulled the carpet from under your feet" approach that mmo developers seem to deem normal.

I like to plan en prepare and think things through, but i guess i just have to see where 1.6 and the other patches take this game. Stay out of the red and kill crap will probably still work, changes or no changes.

kieso · January 2015

I think it needed a big change. The meta in this game has been the blandest I've seen out of any MMO. Now they've streamlined buffs and have made armor effective. Also blocking seems much more responsive, so you can light or heavy attack and quickly block that incoming swing.

It's not perfect or close to it, but it's a good start.

Darlgon · January 2015

Well.. hate to join the forum yellers. but..

Yeah, so the game was ready for the influx of new users with consoles.
Yeah, so the game was ready for the people who will be coming back with B2P. (F3P for all intents and purposes, as many already bought the game and are only coming back for the no sub fee.)
Yeah, to make the Coin Shop viable for the above.
Yeah, because some one, somewhere decided the Vet System wasnt working, so they had to do a revamp of everything to make it viable.
Yeah, because they are trying to discourage the "cookie-cutter, this is flavor of the month" build mentality.

Pick any or all.

Maulkin · January 2015

kieso wrote: »

I think it needed a big change. The meta in this game has been the blandest I've seen out of any MMO. Now they've streamlined buffs and have made armor effective. Also blocking seems much more responsive, so you can light or heavy attack and quickly block that incoming swing.

It's not perfect or close to it, but it's a good start.

Yeah, but block-casting is still here, so the responsiveness of blocking is largely immaterial when you never let go of RMB.

The meta had indeed gotten stale, I fully agree. Armor had to become more important, not doubt about that either.

I'm just a little bit worried by changing so many variables at once they might end up in a worse place than they were after 10 months of tinkering. There's a bit of fear and uncertainty in the forums but let's hope when the dust settles it's gonna be much better than what we had.

Locke_ESO · January 2015

The game really needed the changes. Whether the new order is superior to the old remains to be seen. I don't really see much positive for the Sorc I just leveled to vr14 to make it more competitive but we will have to see.

Lord_Draevan · January 2015

The changes were, for the most part, welcome. Now all they need to do is remove abilities while blocking, and we'll be set!

kieso · January 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

I think it needed a big change. The meta in this game has been the blandest I've seen out of any MMO. Now they've streamlined buffs and have made armor effective. Also blocking seems much more responsive, so you can light or heavy attack and quickly block that incoming swing.

It's not perfect or close to it, but it's a good start.

Yeah, but block-casting is still here, so the responsiveness of blocking is largely immaterial when you never let go of RMB.

The meta had indeed gotten stale, I fully agree. Armor had to become more important, not doubt about that either.

I'm just a little bit worried by changing so many variables at once they might end up in a worse place than they were after 10 months of tinkering. There's a bit of fear and uncertainty in the forums but let's hope when the dust settles it's gonna be much better than what we had.

That's true and I do hope Block casting goes away at some point and yes all these changes are a pretty big gamble but one can hope it pays off.

Nivzruo_ESO · January 2015

Yea, blocking needs a nerf. Imo All shields should come with a function that gives you +30% mitigation from all damage & -40% outgoing damage.

eventide03b14a_ESO · January 2015

kieso wrote: »

I think it needed a big change. The meta in this game has been the blandest I've seen out of any MMO. Now they've streamlined buffs and have made armor effective. Also blocking seems much more responsive, so you can light or heavy attack and quickly block that incoming swing.

It's not perfect or close to it, but it's a good start.

It would be a lot better if they removed block casting. It's just a stupid mechanic that doesn't make any sense.

Spiritreaver_ESO · January 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Before you jump on me, this is not a complain thread at all.

Alright, so the game at launch was very unbalanced, kinda expected for a new MMO launch. For the next 10 months they have been tinkering with balance and while it certainly wasn't perfect, it was definitely better compared to launch.

My question is, how come ZOS decided to go for the nuclear approach instead of continuing with their approach of small, incremental changes? The reason why that surprises me is because:
a) It takes huge development time
b) It's not what they said they would do (small, incremental changes)
c) When so many things change at once you have a huge risk of creating even more imbalance than you had before

I'm not against this big rework, but as of v1.5 I felt that with some good buffs to Heavy Armor, some reduction to the overall rate of ult generation and some changes to block casting the game would have been in a very good shape.

What do you think?

My quick and dirty opinion: Bean-counters at Zenimax Media listened to gibberish from Bethesda on how to handle 'their' franchise-thus forcing ZoS to redirect.

Maulkin · January 2015

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Yea, blocking needs a nerf. Imo All shields should come with a function that gives you +30% mitigation from all damage & -40% outgoing damage.

Here's the thing, we're all saying blocking needs (or needed?) a nerf, but they've gone and nerfed overall HP by something like 30% and boosted the damage of most abilities.

Lower HP + Impenetrable change + more damage, means people are dying a lot quicker atm in Cyrodiil. If they go ahead and remove block-casting at this stage then people will be dropping like flies.

Which comes back to what I was saying about small changes rather than going nuclear...

WebBull · January 2015

The massive overall is all about marketing before the F2P release. The games is basically redesigned purposely to create excitement and reaction. Most people (current and past subscribers) are going to be interested to see how their charters do under the redesign.

Problem is that ZOS has repeatedly shown that they can't/don't know how to fix many problems in the game. So while this will create hype and excitement initially, it will be short lived and players will leave for the same reasons they did after the original launch.

Lied · January 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Yea, blocking needs a nerf. Imo All shields should come with a function that gives you +30% mitigation from all damage & -40% outgoing damage.

Here's the thing, we're all saying blocking needs (or needed?) a nerf, but they've gone and nerfed overall HP by somethike like 30% and boosted the damage of most abilities.

Lower HP + Impenetrable change + more damage, means people are dying a lot quicker atm in Cyrodiil. If they go ahead and remove block-casting at this stage then people will be dropping like flies.

Which comes back to what I was saying about small changes rather than going nuclear...

personally I wouldn't be as concerned with the higher mortality rate except when it is combined with the loss of forward camps. Death-match style ttk with horse simulator 2015 seems like a bad mix.

Maulkin · January 2015

Lied wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Yea, blocking needs a nerf. Imo All shields should come with a function that gives you +30% mitigation from all damage & -40% outgoing damage.

Here's the thing, we're all saying blocking needs (or needed?) a nerf, but they've gone and nerfed overall HP by somethike like 30% and boosted the damage of most abilities.

Lower HP + Impenetrable change + more damage, means people are dying a lot quicker atm in Cyrodiil. If they go ahead and remove block-casting at this stage then people will be dropping like flies.

Which comes back to what I was saying about small changes rather than going nuclear...

personally I wouldn't be as concerned with the higher mortality rate except when it is combined with the loss of forward camps. Death-match style ttk with horse simulator 2015 seems like a bad mix.

Yeah but if you have both Death-match style ttk and instant respawn at a nearby FC, then why shouldn't I go play Countrestrike: GO? There'll be hardly any difference bar the fantasy setting.

I just think, making the changes they did, leaves them no margin to remove block casting in the near future. Which will perpetuate a bad game design.

Vizier · January 2015

Changes were needed. Whether 1.6 is the "one" needed remains to be seen.

Look at all the block cast haters in this group eh? Since when is it illogical to be able to fight around a shield? It's been done for thousands of years. Sorry but removing block casting would absolutely ruin PvP and possibly PVE for the Tanky types. (I play a stam build NB as my main that rarely needs to block so don't go there.)

I think it would be reasonable to reduce damage output while blocking by 10-20%, perhaps adjustable with skill points. It should probably be offset with a something like a reduction in Stamina cost for blocking and reduced wear and tear on armor for PvE.

That said I'm on the fence about the changes. I see pro n con and believe there is likely some method to the madness.

tpanisiakb16_ESO · January 2015

Beesting wrote: »

. I have played over 60 days on my char so like 1500 hours but was leveling slowly because i was waiting for someone to catch up.

Now i am having a blast doing the pledges and the trials and i am getting pretty good at playing my char. Was hoping to get certain sets as bop drops and really looking forward to dsa and stuff.

With the changes of 1.6 i feel like my char has gotten the news he has a terminal disease and will die in 6 weeks. It really feels like being on death row without having committed any crime.

If i could go back in time i would have rushed to end game so i would not feel i am missing out on so much. I guess i am not the only one that feels like this.

After playing skyrim i was really looking forward to this game and i have made some nice friends playing it, but i was not prepared for the "lol i pulled the carpet from under your feet" approach that mmo developers seem to deem normal.

I like to plan en prepare and think things through, but i guess i just have to see where 1.6 and the other patches take this game. Stay out of the red and kill crap will probably still work, changes or no changes.

LOL, this comment is awesome.

I feel exactly the same with my two-handed DK. I get that some specs for DK have benefited greatly with the change, but ZOS pulled their pants down and took a heavy dump all over us two-handers. GL using more than two magicka abilities. Want to use Eruption or Engulfing Flame? Pick one. Getting low on health? Better hope your Rally can burst heal, 'cause you don't have enough magicka for Green Dragon Blood.

What hurts me the most is that ZOS is more or less forcing me to pick tank or DPS. If I want to primarily tank I can't DPS to save my bum, if I want to DPS than tanking is going to be a constant fight for resource pools. It's so silly.

Right now I feel ZOS wants me to tear off my heavy armor, put all points into stamina and magicka, and wear medium armor and spec into dual wielding.

2 handed DKs are the shoots right now.

Lied · January 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Lied wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Yea, blocking needs a nerf. Imo All shields should come with a function that gives you +30% mitigation from all damage & -40% outgoing damage.

Here's the thing, we're all saying blocking needs (or needed?) a nerf, but they've gone and nerfed overall HP by somethike like 30% and boosted the damage of most abilities.

Lower HP + Impenetrable change + more damage, means people are dying a lot quicker atm in Cyrodiil. If they go ahead and remove block-casting at this stage then people will be dropping like flies.

Which comes back to what I was saying about small changes rather than going nuclear...

personally I wouldn't be as concerned with the higher mortality rate except when it is combined with the loss of forward camps. Death-match style ttk with horse simulator 2015 seems like a bad mix.

Yeah but if you have both Death-match style ttk and instant respawn at a nearby FC, then why shouldn't I go play Countrestrike: GO? There'll be hardly any difference bar the fantasy setting.

I just think, making the changes they did, leaves them no margin to remove block casting in the near future. Which will perpetuate a bad game design.

I don't necessarily disagree, I just think medieval CS with a mandatory 15 minute respawn timer is worse than medieval CS without it.

Xjcon · January 2015

Lied wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Yea, blocking needs a nerf. Imo All shields should come with a function that gives you +30% mitigation from all damage & -40% outgoing damage.

Here's the thing, we're all saying blocking needs (or needed?) a nerf, but they've gone and nerfed overall HP by somethike like 30% and boosted the damage of most abilities.

Lower HP + Impenetrable change + more damage, means people are dying a lot quicker atm in Cyrodiil. If they go ahead and remove block-casting at this stage then people will be dropping like flies.

Which comes back to what I was saying about small changes rather than going nuclear...

personally I wouldn't be as concerned with the higher mortality rate except when it is combined with the loss of forward camps. Death-match style ttk with horse simulator 2015 seems like a bad mix.

I agree. What percent of time do we need to spend running on our horses just to get back to a battle that lasts for a short period of time.

eventide03b14a_ESO · January 2015

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Yea, blocking needs a nerf. Imo All shields should come with a function that gives you +30% mitigation from all damage & -40% outgoing damage.

Not just a nerf. You should not be able to cast an ability while blocking. It's ridiculous.

Darlgon · January 2015

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Yea, blocking needs a nerf. Imo All shields should come with a function that gives you +30% mitigation from all damage & -40% outgoing damage.

Not just a nerf. You should not be able to cast an ability while blocking. It's ridiculous.

What.. when you are blocking, you cant talk? Thats all casting is.. the handwaving is giving the audience a show or just making a focus.

rawne1980b16_ESO · January 2015

Darlgon wrote: »

Yeah, because some one, somewhere decided the Vet System wasnt working,

To be fair, you could throw a dart and would probably hit someone that thinks the vet system is absolute garbage.

It was never popular.

Some people like it, sure. Lots of people hate it though.

OrangeTheCat · January 2015

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

Yeah, because some one, somewhere decided the Vet System wasnt working,

To be fair, you could throw a dart and would probably hit someone that thinks the vet system is absolute garbage.

It was never popular.

Some people like it, sure. Lots of people hate it though.

Yes, the vet system was generally despised by the majority of folks. It led to a lot of grinding to get through it as fast as possible. Some people claimed to like it, but they were few and far between. To understand the reasons, search the forums.

s7732425ub17_ESO · January 2015

kieso wrote: »

I think it needed a big change. The meta in this game has been the blandest I've seen out of any MMO. Now they've streamlined buffs and have made armor effective. Also blocking seems much more responsive, so you can light or heavy attack and quickly block that incoming swing.

It's not perfect or close to it, but it's a good start.

Actually, the meta is even blander with the new changes. It used to be that you could stack certain abilities in interesting ways. But now, everything is either a major buff or a minor buff. Two abilities that give the same buff are now useless when used together, instead of providing a synergy like they did before.

I'm going to have to play around a bit more, but it feels like we have fewer options for uniqueness.