Tanks And Ultimates Hosed?

Sharkano · January 2015

Why can't they add that blocking also starts the same ultimate timer that light/heavy attacks do? It can often be suicide for the tank to pull out of blocking just to try and throw a light or heavy attack in. I think they went way overboard on the ultimate changes, hosing tanks in particular for no good reason. The healer gets his/her ultimate started from healing, why not the tank from tanking?

timidobserver · January 2015

Slot Quick Siphon. Low cost and you will get the ultimate buff whenever it heals someone.

Cody · January 2015

because being able to generate ultimate by hiding behind your block the entire battle is stupid and makes PvP a frustration at times...?

all one would have to do is take down block, hit one enemy with a light attack and combine ult gaining passives with it... there is your ultimate. all in exchange for a one second point of vulnerability. do this however many times you need to gain your ult, and time your ult right when using it.

grimsfield · January 2015

Cody wrote: »

because being able to generate ultimate by hiding behind your block the entire battle is stupid and makes PvP a frustration at times...?

all one would have to do is take down block, hit one enemy with a light attack and combine ult gaining passives with it... there is your ultimate. all in exchange for a one second point of vulnerability. do this however many times you need to gain your ult, and time your ult right when using it.

Do you play pve? That one second point of vulnerability could mean a tank being one shot and a raid being wiped.

Gorthax · January 2015

Sharkano wrote: »

Why can't they add that blocking also starts the same ultimate timer that light/heavy attacks do? It can often be suicide for the tank to pull out of blocking just to try and throw a light or heavy attack in. I think they went way overboard on the ultimate changes, hosing tanks in particular for no good reason. The healer gets his/her ultimate started from healing, why not the tank from tanking?

Clearly you have never stepped foot into pvp.....it is nothing but people who semi-permanentblockcast and nothing but hold right mouse button down while casting spells from behind the over useful shield......

.....pve wise, its not hard to drop block attack block again. Literally it is like .2 seconds......now continue to generate ulti while you block lol

Mobs and bosses are not attacking non stop 24/7 in fights, there ARE openings where you can sweep them in AND within the 8 seconds. Guess this is the classic L2P response here

DeLindsay · January 2015

grimsfield wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

because being able to generate ultimate by hiding behind your block the entire battle is stupid and makes PvP a frustration at times...?

all one would have to do is take down block, hit one enemy with a light attack and combine ult gaining passives with it... there is your ultimate. all in exchange for a one second point of vulnerability. do this however many times you need to gain your ult, and time your ult right when using it.

Do you play pve? That one second point of vulnerability could mean a tank being one shot and a raid being wiped.

This is patently false. There are PLENTY of opportunities for Tanks in PvE to weave in a single Light attack once per 8 seconds. I will also be weaving in a single Funnel Health or other ability that currently generates additional Ultimate for the new minor buff to give another 8 Ult per 8 seconds (Major gives 3/s, minor gives 1/s for 32 Ult/8s) This means an Ult cost of 200 will be able to be dropped once every 50 seconds for Tanks. Also, they DID mention WW Ult gain is gone, but did NOT mention anything about the sets that reduce Ultimate cost or gain more on hit. It's possible those will still work with a smaller decrease/increase.

Also what do some of you Blockbot Tanks put on your 1H Glyphs wise? If you are using the Hardening Glyph then you have to attack once per 8 seconds anyway just to get that shield up.

EDIT: On PTS right now and at least 1 set that reduced the cost of Ultimates still does exactly what it did before, Potentates reduces the cost by 10%.

Gorthax · January 2015

there he is! Welcome to the convo @DeLindsay‌ :P people really are scared to drop block..... gotta love the permablockcast mentality lol

Celless · January 2015

Weaving a light attack in between a block (assuming block can still animation cancel) should not be an issue.

You'll start to recognize enemy attack patterns, know what attacks can be eaten, which should not, whether you have a damage shield to cushion the opening your light attack creates, get the timing down, and pull it off consistently.

Remember, the healer isn't going to get any Ultimate either if you're the only person getting hurt and not doing a light attack. Unless your team mates are getting hurt, in which case, if you have any way of healing them, you can trigger some ultimate gain too.

grimsfield · January 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

grimsfield wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

because being able to generate ultimate by hiding behind your block the entire battle is stupid and makes PvP a frustration at times...?

all one would have to do is take down block, hit one enemy with a light attack and combine ult gaining passives with it... there is your ultimate. all in exchange for a one second point of vulnerability. do this however many times you need to gain your ult, and time your ult right when using it.

Do you play pve? That one second point of vulnerability could mean a tank being one shot and a raid being wiped.

This is patently false. There are PLENTY of opportunities for Tanks in PvE to weave in a single Light attack once per 8 seconds. I will also be weaving in a single Funnel Health or other ability that currently generates additional Ultimate for the new minor buff to give another 8 Ult per 8 seconds (Major gives 3/s, minor gives 1/s for 32 Ult/8s) This means an Ult cost of 200 will be able to be dropped once every 50 seconds for Tanks. Also, they DID mention WW Ult gain is gone, but did NOT mention anything about the sets that reduce Ultimate cost or gain more on hit. It's possible those will still work with a smaller decrease/increase.

Also what do some of you Blockbot Tanks put on your 1H Glyphs wise? If you are using the Hardening Glyph then you have to attack once per 8 seconds anyway just to get that shield up.

patently false? Oh, ok, so you've tanked sanctum then? I'd like to see you try and weave in light attacks against mantikora and not have your healers screaming at you because you're getting destroyed. Patently false? You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

As for the hardening glyph, that thing give you a tiny shield that is basically useless in comparison to how much more damage you are taking from light attacking and not blocking. You sir have no idea what you're talking about. Anyone else have a valid argument?

Wifeaggro13 · January 2015

Sharkano wrote: »

Why can't they add that blocking also starts the same ultimate timer that light/heavy attacks do? It can often be suicide for the tank to pull out of blocking just to try and throw a light or heavy attack in. I think they went way overboard on the ultimate changes, hosing tanks in particular for no good reason. The healer gets his/her ultimate started from healing, why not the tank from tanking?

Because there is no tanking in the damn mechanics its dps with a taunt . hoping 1.6 will fix this

Dagoth_Rac · January 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Slot Quick Siphon. Low cost and you will get the ultimate buff whenever it heals someone.

You cannot use Quick Siphon with a sword and shield. And switching to resto staff every 20 seconds to refresh that is possible, but kind of an odd thing for a tank to do. But if you have any low-cost class skills that can heal allies, you could try that. No need to switch away from 1H+S if it is a class skill.

I see ranged bosses as being a problem here. You will still want to taunt them so their attacks come at you, and you will still want your 1H+S equipped for the damage mitigation if boss is spamming you with attacks, but getting in range to do sword attacks might be difficult. There are bosses you need to kite or bosses with lots of AoE around or bosses who zip and teleport around. DPS can switch to ranged weapon. Tank cannot really switch to ranged, not without losing all the 1H+S passives that are a key part of tanking. I have seen every class tank. I have seen every race tank. I have seen people in all 3 types of armor. But never seen anyone tank without 1H+S.

I agree that having block gain ultimate could be a big problem in PvP. So, what about taunt? I can't see that serving any purpose in PvP (but I could be wrong). Make it where:

1). Damage dealers gain ultimate by doing damage.
2). Healers gain ultimate by healing.
3). Tanks gain ultimate by taunting.

Now everybody gains ultimate by doing what they would have been doing anyway.

It is not that the tank cannot weave in light attacks. It is just kind of odd that the tank needs to, essentially, stop tanking if he wants to gain ultimate. I don't think the goal should be, "Is it possible?" I could be required to run run in a circle and crouch every 8 seconds. That is possible. The healer could be required to do a bash every 8 seconds. That is possible. But does it make sense within the game and the role?

kieso · January 2015

aren't HP and dmg mitigation going up now?

timidobserver · January 2015

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Slot Quick Siphon. Low cost and you will get the ultimate buff whenever it heals someone.

You cannot use Quick Siphon with a sword and shield. And switching to resto staff every 20 seconds to refresh that is possible, but kind of an odd thing for a tank to do. But if you have any low-cost class skills that can heal allies, you could try that. No need to switch away from 1H+S if it is a class skill.

I see ranged bosses as being a problem here. You will still want to taunt them so their attacks come at you, and you will still want your 1H+S equipped for the damage mitigation if boss is spamming you with attacks, but getting in range to do sword attacks might be difficult. There are bosses you need to kite or bosses with lots of AoE around or bosses who zip and teleport around. DPS can switch to ranged weapon. Tank cannot really switch to ranged, not without losing all the 1H+S passives that are a key part of tanking. I have seen every class tank. I have seen every race tank. I have seen people in all 3 types of armor. But never seen anyone tank without 1H+S.

I agree that having block gain ultimate could be a big problem in PvP. So, what about taunt? I can't see that serving any purpose in PvP (but I could be wrong). Make it where:

1). Damage dealers gain ultimate by doing damage.
2). Healers gain ultimate by healing.
3). Tanks gain ultimate by taunting.

Now everybody gains ultimate by doing what they would have been doing anyway.

It is not that the tank cannot weave in light attacks. It is just kind of odd that the tank needs to, essentially, stop tanking if he wants to gain ultimate. I don't think the goal should be, "Is it possible?" I could be required to run run in a circle and crouch every 8 seconds. That is possible. The healer could be required to do a bash every 8 seconds. That is possible. But does it make sense within the game and the role?

Im not asking a tank to do it, saying they have too, or saying that the way ZOS has ultimate setup is good.

Mine is just a statement in reality with regard to how to get your ultimate with the mechanics outline in the patch notes. Assuming that the ultimate mechanics do not change, I am just mentioning a decent way to ensure that you keep the ultimate generation buff. Pick up something that heals people semi-regularly, doesn't matter what. If you're a Templar tank drop extended ritual, if your a NB tank drop funnel health, sap, refreshing path semi-regularly, or pick up a resto staff and use quick siphon, or whatever you want to use that will heal people.

Sharkano · January 2015

The idea of taunt being a trigger for tanks is fine, but they need one. The current set-up, where you are forced to drop block and use a light attack to start the ultimate timer, can be fatal to tanks. You are in the middle of the boss and all agro, and have drawn it all to yourself -- if you unblock for even one light attack you can die. Anyone who has tanked serious bosses knows this. The "throw some group healing skill on your bar and waste a slot no one else needs to waste to get the ultimate timer" is patently unfair, as others do not have to do this. When I play ranged dps it is easy to throw in a light attack occasionally. Tanking, not so. I am NOT saying the tank should be able to get double ultimate (light attack and taunt/block), but just that a tank skill such as taunting or blocking should start the SAME TIMER one gets from light attacks.

Teiji · January 2015

So is the notion that it's too complicated to perform a light attack every eight seconds, or not?

If that's the case, why not L2P? Wouldn't that be easier?

Also, it may be good to request an add-on which says, in bold, "light attack now!" every eight seconds, with a timer which is togglable. Imagine stabilizers for a children's bicycle, that's what you'd be using.

MasterSpatula · January 2015

Teiji wrote: »

So is the notion that it's too complicated to perform a light attack every eight seconds, or not?

If that's the case, why not L2P? Wouldn't that be easier?

Asked and answered. Perhaps you could L2Read.

DeLindsay · January 2015

So far I can say this via PTS:

Blessing of the Potentates: 10% cheaper Ultimate cost (same as Live).
Hide of the Werewolf: 5 Ultimate on hit every 5 sec (same as Live).
Akaviri Dragonguard: 15% cheaper Ultimate cost (same as Live).
Blood Spawn Monster set: 6% chance to restore 25 Ultimate, 6 sec CD (Same as Live except the 6 sec CD).
WW passive Blood Rage: No longer generates Ultimate.
Sorc passive Power Stone: 15% cheaper Ultimate cost( same as Live).
Passives/Abilities that generated additional Ultimate before still do so on PTS, some have had a 6 second CD added like Transfer for NB's.
Last Stand passive in CS: Grants Major Heroism if you fall below 20% Health, can only occur once every 30 sec (120 pt passive unlock in The Ritual).
Synergizer passive in CS: Grants 2 Ultimate any time you activate a Synergy (30 pt passive unlock in The Lover).
Vampire: Stage 4, 21% cheaper Batswarm Ultimate cost (same as Live).
NB passive Catalyst: Gain 8 Ultimate after using a Potion (+30% pots on Live).

Looking at the above ways to generate additional Ultimate or save it's cost, how exactly is 1.6 hosing Tanks. More to point, GOOD Tanks will take full advantage of the various new ways to gain Ultimate and be dropping them with considerable speed.

Teiji · January 2015

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Teiji wrote: »

So is the notion that it's too complicated to perform a light attack every eight seconds, or not?

If that's the case, why not L2P? Wouldn't that be easier?

Asked and answered. Perhaps you could L2Read.

Incorrect Spatula-kun.

It's a yes or no question. Is performing a light attack every eight seconds too complicated or not?

For example, if someone is playing with one hand which has only two fingers, it may be more complicated for them to perform a light attack every eight seconds than someone who has two hands with four fingers and a thumb on each. Even animation-cancelling may be more complicated for them too.

Your attempt to direct the thread off-topic is unwarranted and disrespectful to the original poster and community as a whole. Please don't try and direct threads off-topic, we should be working to improve the quality of posts here, not go out of our way to degrade them.

@Sharkano I too have no idea what to expect with "tank gear" I.E, heavy armor predominately. Hopefully others will chime in as I intend to once my PTS updates, but regardless, if you're unaware, "animation-cancelling" makes 'weaving' light-attacks less dangerous.

So, block enemy LA -> LA -> Ability [to cancel your LA animation] -> Block then just repeat.

MasterSpatula · January 2015

Teiji wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Teiji wrote: »

So is the notion that it's too complicated to perform a light attack every eight seconds, or not?

If that's the case, why not L2P? Wouldn't that be easier?

Asked and answered. Perhaps you could L2Read.

Incorrect Spatula-kun.

You may disagree with the answers provided, but there's simply no argument to be made that the question hasn't been answered. Try to reserve using the word incorrect coupled with a diminutive honorific for those occasions when you are not, in fact, the one who is incorrect.

I'm honestly not sure I agree with the answers myself, but others are making the case that some enemies require constant blocking. Also, I've certainly been in a swarm of trash spamming CCs, giving me not even a partial second to drop block.

Vahrokh · January 2015

Gorthax wrote: »

Mobs and bosses are not attacking non stop 24/7 in fights, there ARE openings where you can sweep them in AND within the 8 seconds. Guess this is the classic L2P response here

Mantikora disagrees with you.

Sharkano · January 2015

I love how the non-tank guys come up with kinds of other ways you can get some ultimate by either: (a) timing a light attack JUST FRIGGING RIGHT while trying to tank tough bosses; (b) using a skill slot they don't have to waste; or (c) getting some little ulti from the same other sources they can. They ignore that light attack is now the major way to get ultimate, and it is functionally taken away from tanks. Easy fix: make taunt skill start the SAME TIMER. Another possible easy fix: allow light/heavy casts while blocking. Those prejudice no one.

LordTareq · January 2015

Sharkano wrote: »

I love how the non-tank guys come up with kinds of other ways you can get some ultimate by either: (a) timing a light attack JUST FRIGGING RIGHT while trying to tank tough bosses; (b) using a skill slot they don't have to waste; or (c) getting some little ulti from the same other sources they can. They ignore that light attack is now the major way to get ultimate, and it is functionally taken away from tanks. Easy fix: make taunt skill start the SAME TIMER. Another possible easy fix: allow light/heavy casts while blocking. Those prejudice no one.

An even better fix: remove blockcasting alltogether, and tweak bosses and dps in general to make tactical blocking viable.

Cody · January 2015

grimsfield wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

because being able to generate ultimate by hiding behind your block the entire battle is stupid and makes PvP a frustration at times...?

all one would have to do is take down block, hit one enemy with a light attack and combine ult gaining passives with it... there is your ultimate. all in exchange for a one second point of vulnerability. do this however many times you need to gain your ult, and time your ult right when using it.

Do you play pve? That one second point of vulnerability could mean a tank being one shot and a raid being wiped.

maybe you would not be one shot if you put on some actual armor.....

Forestd16b14_ESO · January 2015

How does not having to attack as a tank mean a hose for tanks? If you depend on hiding behind block and block casting to tank and generate ultimate you need to re-think your role choice to something else. Cause I generate ultimate and live quiet well keep enemies off my teammates while not hiding behind block with my great sword when I tank.

Drasn · January 2015

Sharkano wrote: »

I love how the non-tank guys come up with kinds of other ways you can get some ultimate by either: (a) timing a light attack JUST FRIGGING RIGHT while trying to tank tough bosses; (b) using a skill slot they don't have to waste; or (c) getting some little ulti from the same other sources they can. They ignore that light attack is now the major way to get ultimate, and it is functionally taken away from tanks. Easy fix: make taunt skill start the SAME TIMER. Another possible easy fix: allow light/heavy casts while blocking. Those prejudice no one.

So I tank, on both a Templar and a DK. There is no fight in this game that requires you to perma-block. You should already be using skills and light attacks.

likewow777 · January 2015

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Sharkano wrote: »

I love how the non-tank guys come up with kinds of other ways you can get some ultimate by either: (a) timing a light attack JUST FRIGGING RIGHT while trying to tank tough bosses; (b) using a skill slot they don't have to waste; or (c) getting some little ulti from the same other sources they can. They ignore that light attack is now the major way to get ultimate, and it is functionally taken away from tanks. Easy fix: make taunt skill start the SAME TIMER. Another possible easy fix: allow light/heavy casts while blocking. Those prejudice no one.

So I tank, on both a Templar and a DK. There is no fight in this game that requires you to perma-block. You should already be using skills and light attacks.

I'd have to agree. I've been tanking as a Templar as well, and recently have a low level VR DK tank. I have yet to come across a boss, pledge level, Craglorn, or otherwise, that doesn't give you multiple half second, at least, windows in which you can do quick light attacks throughout the fight. It's probably easier to block constantly, but it isn't the only way. You do have to time things and watch your resources, but as a tank you're likely doing that anyway.

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2015

I have a DK Primary and Im glad ZOS has tackled the DK issues. Some of them I dont agree with but for the most part Im glad they didnt leave DKs the way they are now.

Hopefully theyll get things smoothed out and PvP will actually be interesting from here on out. And REAL Tanks can get some credit for doing their part in Cyrodiil..And not the guys blamed for every blockcastbot out there giving the rest of us bad names.

Sharkano · January 2015

Yes, that's right -- I need to just find that "half second, at least" window. The point here is not that a tank can't ever find a possible conceivable moment, but that this is a severe hardship others at range with no boss on them EVER need to deal with. And for the guy who says he gets ultimate just fine tanking now, that's the point: NOW. It's changing, my friend. Hey about this for an idea: bolt escape is the only way to generate ultimate. Maybe that would be fair to ALL THE NON-SORC'S WHO CAN'T DO IT. Since the fix for this is ultra easy (taunt can start same timer as light attack), why anyone would even argue against that is beyond me.

Joejudas · January 2015

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

I have a DK Primary and Im glad ZOS has tackled the DK issues. Some of them I dont agree with but for the most part Im glad they didnt leave DKs the way they are now.

Hopefully theyll get things smoothed out and PvP will actually be interesting from here on out. And REAL Tanks can get some credit for doing their part in Cyrodiil..And not the guys blamed for every blockcastbot out there giving the rest of us bad names.

Clearly based on PvP logic.....and not PvE

Xjcon · January 2015

I have never had any serious issues timing a LA in between a bosses attack, now if they have changed light attack canceling I can see this as a problem.

Forestd16b14_ESO · January 2015

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

I have a DK Primary and Im glad ZOS has tackled the DK issues. Some of them I dont agree with but for the most part Im glad they didnt leave DKs the way they are now.

Hopefully theyll get things smoothed out and PvP will actually be interesting from here on out. And REAL Tanks can get some credit for doing their part in Cyrodiil..And not the guys blamed for every blockcastbot out there giving the rest of us bad names.

couldn't agree more tire of those "bad seeds" giving us real DK tanks bad names.