Zenimax - How are you going to keep End-Game PvErs Happy?

DDuke · January 2015

From what we've heard regarding the DLC, it'll all be scaled to your level similar to GW2 (the whole thing smells of GW2 anyhow).

GW2 was notorious for its lack of end game content (or meaningful updates in general).

How are you going to keep the people who enjoy challenging 12-man (or higher) content, or "more traditional raids" which you were said to be considering last October?

If I understood correctly, even Murkmire, which was supposed to hold the next end-game progression, was said to scale to your level.

How are you going to keep players enjoying raid content happy? Last update with end game content was Sanctum Ophidia, and it has been months since then (with apparently nothing new in the horizon).

Sincerely,
Decimus

Cogo · January 2015

With cheese of course!

itsBishop · January 2015

Yeah, it would be nice to hear something about their plans for future raids. I imagine that these are quite a ways out at this point in time though.

Enodoc · January 2015

Interestingly enough, I don't remember Murkmire specifically being named on that list. The list included Orsinium (Wrothgar), Clockwork City, and Mephala's (currently unnamed) realm of Oblivion. Perhaps there will still be end-game regions as well, and perhaps Murkmire is one of those...

Rosveen · January 2015

I'm more interested in how they're going to scale an entire zone with other people in it to my level.

DDuke · January 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

I'm more interested in how they're going to scale an entire zone with other people in it to my level.

Yeah, I don't really like the level scaling in general.

Having zones scale to your level takes a lot out of your character progression.

I would much rather have seen ZOS add some high level content to existing low level zones, to give a sense of danger & "hey, that place looks interesting, I'll go back there in 10 levels". What they're doing is pretty much the contrary.

In fact, this was one of my main complaints for Skyrim as well, and one of the (many) aspects where I think it failed miserably compared to older titles such as Morrowind, the fact that you didn't really feel like getting stronger in the world, or the feeling of danger when enemies didn't scale to your level.

I guess it was tolerable for dungeons since those badly needed replayability, but whole zones scaling to your level? I don't like it...

Kraven · January 2015

Easy answer to OP question:

They won't.

It has been proven time and time again that the end game PvE crowd was not even a player base they ever considered.
Between making content easier and easier over time, and flat out ignoring their end game player base they proved repeatedly that they are more interested in the player base that take 8 months to reach level

Between us asking for Craglorn to be what they advertised it as "an end game zone designed for group play" and it coming out as grind central. Then rather than addressing the issue and coming up with a solution they simply said 'Let's remove XP from this, and this, and that over there, and this thing here....'

Then the slap in the face that was the Undaunted update, "Screw your progress!"

The trials being not just easy mode but having 8-9 minute runs through them endorsed by ZOS, as devs ran these zones with these groups and celebrated those times. SO was more difficult, and more enjoyable the first couple of times. Then you realize the content itself isn't fun, it's a challenge for the sake of challenge which some of us did enjoy. It is scheduled to be made easier, of course.

The entire CP30 fiasco. Not to mention the removal of Vet ranks all together because "We want our players to all be on the same page and equal footing." translates into "We don't care if you play 30 hours per week or 2 we're going to make an even playing field where there is no reason to play 30 hours." You know the standard cater to casuals that MMO gaming has become.

So short answer, good luck. End game PvE has never once been shown to be anything at all they even give an iota of consideration.

Lykurgis · January 2015

itsBishop wrote: »

Yeah, it would be nice to hear something about their plans for future raids. I imagine that these are quite a ways out at this point in time though.

Several good questions have been posed in the reddit AMA today regarding this, currently there are 0 answers.

DDuke wrote: »

Having zones scale to your level takes a lot out of your character progression.

I foresee see all new Trials after 1.6 being paid DLC with level scaling. This will likely lead us to more of what we see now: V1's looking to "lead" V14s for Undaunted Daliys to cheese the difficulty.
I predict in the future we will see trails farming with level 1 group leaders scaling the trial down so the capped characters can wreak havoc on the leaderboards/farm new set gear quickly and easily.

Cogo · January 2015

I dont think you get any better answer then "cheese".

We have to wait and see. Maybe consoles players will want it. Then we have it....

Gyudan · January 2015

@DDuke: don't hold your breath for new endgame PVE content.

Matt Firor: We are not going to keep up our 2014 pace of updates in 2015 - and our future update pace will focus more on new adventures and game experiences than system changes. It's time to let the game breathe a little - we've done so many new features so quickly that we want to make sure everyone is on the same page with us. 1.6 alone has a complete rebalancing of most player abilities - we don't want to do that again, for example. Our #1 priority right now is getting Tamriel Unlimited launched on PC, and then focusing on a successful console launch. While we do those things, we have other teams already working on DLC and expect to see that start rolling out at some point after console launch settles down.

I don't foresee anything new until september 2015. That would be 3 months after console launch and 12 months after the release of Upper Craglorn (Sanctum+Dragonstar Arena). It's time to switch to a more casual gamestyle.

yelloweyedemon · January 2015

They will not. It is very very clear that the whole game gone way way off than what was expected. From launch till now they tried to tone down the difficulty, and do the game as casual as possible.

As you said, they will take GW2 as an example and make this game a meaningless repetitive game, where the only reward will probably be the cosmetics (just like in GW2), especially when all vet ranks are gone.

I stopped playing 2 months after release and not planning comming back anytime soon.

I would expect a more casual game, with cash store (maybe it will go p2w, maybe not) stupid (lore-wise) outfits and appearances, etc...

They also said that with 1.6 whole class skills and systems will be reballanced... So PC players were like paying to beta test things for consoles... GG!

Emma_Overload · January 2015

Can't believe people are begging for more 12-man content when there still isn't any proper endgame PVE for solo/duo players. Wrothgar had better deliver.... I don't need a Craglorn 2.0.

PBpsy · January 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Can't believe people are begging for more 12-man content when there still isn't any proper endgame PVE for solo/duo players. Wrothgar had better deliver.... I don't need a Craglorn 2.0.

Yeah people paying MMOs in general want to have solo stuff you know because that is why we play MMOs.

Emma_Overload · January 2015

PBpsy wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Can't believe people are begging for more 12-man content when there still isn't any proper endgame PVE for solo/duo players. Wrothgar had better deliver.... I don't need a Craglorn 2.0.

Yeah people paying MMOs in general want to have solo stuff you know because that is why we play MMOs.

Yeah, actually, we do. Look around Craglorn... there are tons of people wandering around singly or in pairs grinding or RPing or whatever. There haven't been big groups in Craglorn since they killed the glory days of grinding.

Pandering to the tiny minority of people who can muster 12 guys for a raid has screwed up this game for the masses. If ZoS wants to make money on ESO, they need to deliver an endgame that matches the expectations set by levels 1 through VR10.

olemanwinter · January 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

It's time to switch to a more casual gamestyle.

It's time to switch to a more casual serious gamestyle.

Magdalina · January 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Can't believe people are begging for more 12-man content when there still isn't any proper endgame PVE for solo/duo players. Wrothgar had better deliver.... I don't need a Craglorn 2.0.

Yeah people paying MMOs in general want to have solo stuff you know because that is why we play MMOs.

Yeah, actually, we do. Look around Craglorn... there are tons of people wandering around singly or in pairs grinding or RPing or whatever. There haven't been big groups in Craglorn since they killed the glory days of grinding.

Pandering to the tiny minority of people who can muster 12 guys for a raid has screwed up this game for the masses. If ZoS wants to make money on ESO, they need to deliver an endgame that matches the expectations set by levels 1 through VR10.

Crag is actually fine once/if you get over the group disgust and give it a try:) Trials aside, it really lacks good rewards and hence replayability but playing it for the first time through is fun.

Grinding isn't adding to fun, but imo with 14 vet ranks and no new content for months they should just let people grind - most of dedicated players are on alt #3+ by now, we're not questing again.

Most of Lower Crag can be 1-2-manned at vet 10+, it's ridiculously easy for full team. I'm in no way trying to be mean or condescending here, you should really give it a try;) I've met plenty of players with an attitude like yours, a lot of them actually got into group content once they realized it can be fun. There are 16(+starter zones) solo zones in the game, group people need to hang out somewhere, too.

Khivas_Carrick · January 2015

I don't mind scaling content and the removal of vet ranks. I'm actually quite ok with that, since nobody really liked them anyway. I do however have a sense of being puzzled by people commenting that scaling content to your level removes character progression, and I'm just sitting here looking at you wondering what the hell you've been drinking and where can I get some.

You still level up, your look, amount of skill points, powers, gear, all that still changes and you progress. All this form of scaling would do is change the game from a linear progression of sorts to a go where you want sort of thing like elder scrolls was meant to be, and I fail to see what is wrong with that.

That said though I still want end game raids with long as hell fights and lock outs

Cody · January 2015

So no akavir??

ah well.

in the meantime, hopefully the ability re-balance goes well

xMovingTarget · January 2015

If nothing really comes on that segment, Farewell ESO! As much as i like it. I consider End Game Group Play as what i want from an MMORPG. I wanna do big epic raids. With a good difficulty on em. Sanctum Ophidia was fine for that. But all that trials just dont really feel like Raids. Since they are so damn small or short.

Without nothing new this game will loose many players. Many players that actively promote this game and support it. Making Videos for all the "noobs" so they dont need to think about something.

My usual ESO Time looks as follows :

- login in checking hirelings
- press g to check whos online in guild
- press o to see who of my friends are online(my list is almost capped)
- Chat a bit to these people
- Ask some ppl if they wanna do something. (Daylies and DSA Vet are Options)
- Afternoon a Trial
- Log out

That is what most players do. And this is already quite boring. The content is way to repeatative for no reward. Random traits (90% of the loot i get has Impenetrable), no desired drop at all(even after 50+ runs).
I dont know.

Dont get me wrong. I love the Elder Scrolls Lore. Being playing it a lot starting with Morrowind, which i completed at least 3 times.
But since this is an MMO and no Coop TES, i wanna play it like one.

DDuke · January 2015

xMovingTarget wrote: »

If nothing really comes on that segment, Farewell ESO! As much as i like it. I consider End Game Group Play as what i want from an MMORPG. I wanna do big epic raids. With a good difficulty on em. Sanctum Ophidia was fine for that. But all that trials just dont really feel like Raids. Since they are so damn small or short.

Without nothing new this game will loose many players. Many players that actively promote this game and support it. Making Videos for all the "noobs" so they dont need to think about something.

My usual ESO Time looks as follows :

- login in checking hirelings
- press g to check whos online in guild
- press o to see who of my friends are online(my list is almost capped)
- Chat a bit to these people
- Ask some ppl if they wanna do something. (Daylies and DSA Vet are Options)
- Afternoon a Trial
- Log out

That is what most players do. And this is already quite boring. The content is way to repeatative for no reward. Random traits (90% of the loot i get has Impenetrable), no desired drop at all(even after 50+ runs).
I dont know.

Dont get me wrong. I love the Elder Scrolls Lore. Being playing it a lot starting with Morrowind, which i completed at least 3 times.
But since this is an MMO and no Coop TES, i wanna play it like one.

That is my daily schedule as well

Except I didn't even bother to do the daily today, and SO dropped the same crap I always get with this wonderful loot system.

This game is getting boring alarmingly quick.

Magdalina · January 2015

I never thought I'd be one to post in such a thread, always defending "casuals" and their right to play the way they want and all but here I am...we do need more endgame content at this point, people - best people imo, those hop on PTS the second they can, that find all the bugs(and exploits>.> <.<) there is, that theorycraft, comeup with unique builds and make guides for more casual players - are bored already, just imagine how bored they(we) will be by June, and no one's even promising anything concrete in June either. These people will leave. Yeah, someone else will come to take their place(like people attracted by b2p model) but I somehow doubt it'll be a good trade off.

Also, is it just me or seems the direction actually *used* to be a lot more towards endgame? I remember when they released AA and Hel Ra, all that hype about it, forced notifications about all your guildies and friends doing it, all those people complaining the game only caters to endgamers, not casuals...did the decide to take directly opposite approach now or something? Or maybe there's hope yet left and something big and fancy could be coming under wraps?

xMovingTarget · January 2015

Magdalina wrote: »

I never thought I'd be one to post in such a thread, always defending "casuals" and their right to play the way they want and all but here I am...we do need more endgame content at this point, people - best people imo those hop off on PTS the second they can, that find all the bugs(and exploits>.> <.<) there is, that theorycraft, comeup with unique builds and make guides for more casual players - are bored already, just imagine how bought they(we) will be by June, and no one's even promising anything concrete in June either. These people will leave. Yeah, someone else will come to take their place(like people attracted by b2p model) but I somehow doubt it'll be a good trade off.

Also, is it just me or seems the direction actually *used* to be a lot more towards endgame? I remember when they released AA and Hel Ra, all that hype about it, forced notifications about all your guildies and friends doing it, all those people complaining the game only caters to endgamers, not casuals...did the decide to take directly opposite approach now or something? Or maybe there's hope yet left and something big and fancy could be coming under wraps?

When the endgame guys leave, theres more room for the "casuals"

I am glad you did post here.

Moezilla · January 2015

xMovingTarget wrote: »

If nothing really comes on that segment, Farewell ESO! As much as i like it. I consider End Game Group Play as what i want from an MMORPG. I wanna do big epic raids. With a good difficulty on em. Sanctum Ophidia was fine for that. But all that trials just dont really feel like Raids. Since they are so damn small or short.

Without nothing new this game will loose many players. Many players that actively promote this game and support it. Making Videos for all the "noobs" so they dont need to think about something.

My usual ESO Time looks as follows :

- login in checking hirelings
- press g to check whos online in guild
- press o to see who of my friends are online(my list is almost capped)
- Chat a bit to these people
- Ask some ppl if they wanna do something. (Daylies and DSA Vet are Options)
- Afternoon a Trial
- Log out

That is what most players do. And this is already quite boring. The content is way to repeatative for no reward. Random traits (90% of the loot i get has Impenetrable), no desired drop at all(even after 50+ runs).
I dont know.

Dont get me wrong. I love the Elder Scrolls Lore. Being playing it a lot starting with Morrowind, which i completed at least 3 times.
But since this is an MMO and no Coop TES, i wanna play it like one.

In the same boat. Maybe the PTS will keep me occupied for a week or so.

Lykurgis · January 2015

xMovingTarget wrote: »

My usual ESO Time looks as follows :

- login in checking hirelings
- press g to check whos online in guild
- press o to see who of my friends are online(my list is almost capped)
- Chat a bit to these people
- Ask some ppl if they wanna do something. (Daylies and DSA Vet are Options)
- Afternoon a Trial
- Log out

Pretty much this for me and most of the people/guilds I run with...if you want PvEr's to stick around, you need new content.

Magdalina wrote: »

.we do need more endgame content at this point, people - best people imo those hop off on PTS the second they can, that find all the bugs(and exploits>.> <.<) there is, that theorycraft, comeup with unique builds and make guides for more casual players - are bored already, just imagine how bought they(we) will be by June, and no one's even promising anything concrete in June either. These people will leave. Yeah, someone else will come to take their place(like people attracted by b2p model) but I somehow doubt it'll be a good trade off.

Quantity over Quality

I think the streamers/theorcrafters/youtubers who drive new builds and teach the game/strats to the rest of the world live on a steady diet of new content, and without it, they will get bored and leave causing interest in the end-game to dwindle along with their shrinking presence.

Islyn · January 2015

Kraven wrote: »

SO was more difficult, and more enjoyable the first couple of times. Then you realize the content itself isn't fun

Agree to the rest but especially this. Yes I could go run with groups vying for better and better times - but I find SO just blah. Soooo blah.

Paired with the just rubbish for my builds loot (and it is not all that good anyway!) and booooring drudgery everything is in there - I just literally cannot be arsed.

I had way more fun with certain parts of upper craglorn, etc and this one boss whose name I forget - one dude, in a round room who saps your stats - but the fight was so fun!

DSA is really fun to me - I love arena type battles.

SO though? Bleh.

cesmode · January 2015

I would enjoy solo-challenging end game content. No MMO to date has provided this.

Or short-session gameplay. Studies show that the majority of players at max level only log in for brief amounts of time, whether it be 15 minutes or an hour.

Want to capitalize on the majority? Look to short session gameplay, or be unique and create something new with solo endgame content.

Everyone does raids or large scale group content in their MMOs(aside from GW2 but they are teasing the idea of raids) and theres nothing wrong with that. But what about everyone else that don't want to commit to a guild and/or do not want to conform to a schedule to play the game?

(sorry, choosing to not be in a guild doesn't mean one shouldn't play an MMO...there are many other facets of an MMO than joining a guild and raiding, so don't even argue that point).

itsBishop · January 2015

cesmode wrote: »

Everyone does raids or large scale group content in their MMOs...

Massively MULTIPLAYER Online RPG.

Solo endgame content is great and all, but we have a multitude of zones that are designed around the solo-leveling experience (including solo specific encounters on the main story line and Fighters/Mages guild that scale in difficultly). People come to MMOs for the endgame, particularly the PvP and the endgame raiding. ZOS hasn't spent much time appeasing the PvPers, if they pull out from supporting their raiders too this game is going to go super casual, super quickly. If that happens, there really isn't much of a reason for me (and many of my guildmates/others who enjoy pushing competitive raiding) to stick around.

itsBishop · January 2015

Derp. Quoted myself instead of editing.

Preyfar · January 2015

Motifs. MOTIFS EVERYWHERE! Seriously, ZOS releases a motif and people rush to grind and hunt for it. Add new zones, add new motifs... poof. Win.

goldnugget · January 2015

by not releasing any content for 8+ months. get out of here, filthy customer base.

wafcatb14_ESO · January 2015

They already did that with the exciting same storyline no matter what class or faction you play, and the ablity to play the other factions entire awesome same storyline that you just finished on your faction.

What more could you want really. it`s not like SWTOR where every faction and class has a completly different story and your actions can actually change the story. with multiple zones to explore in so leveling a alt is fun since the story and zone choices are different.

Gamers today really next you`ll want a LFG that is working and better Guild functions . and a auction house .