Zenimax, regarding your stance on "Convenience Items"...

DDuke · January 2015

This was posted in the reddit AUA today, and I believe it warrants attention.

Korith_Eaglecry:What will be your process for deciding if an item should or shouldnt go into the store?

ZOS_Ridout: Convinience and Customization is our goal
If it shortcuts some time, it can get considered. If it makes you look cool, it will get considered!

Do you respect at all the time & effort that your more dedicated player base has put & continues to put into the game?

Why are you even considering items that allow people with $$$ to bypass all that effort spent?

Time & effort should never be able to be bought.

I don't care about cosmetics, even if I thought they should be included with the subscription.
I don't care about DLC costing money, as long as you get it with subscription as well.
I don't care about server transfers, name changes etc.
I don't care if you put in soul gem, repair kits or normal potions, players get those anyhow while playing.

But don't you dare put in things like "XP Boosters" or "Gold Boosters", that directly allow $$$ to time conversion. That's a spit in the face of everyone who goes in through the effort to achieve those things.

I do understand some people don't have as much time to spend playing video games as others, but there are other ways you can address this. You can make leveling easier through patches (as you have been doing), you can make gold easier to get (so it affects everyone).
Or these people can just accept the fact that they're not as dedicated gamers as some other folks, and they'll have the added bonus of never running out of content (unlike the rest of us).

But do not give players with $$$ to spend indirect/direct advantages that affect their (and others') gameplay.

I don't want to have less XP, less gold or less anything than someone else who plays equal amount of time, only because I don't spend hundreds of $$$ in Booster Potions.

Discuss.

Sallington · January 2015

Thank god someone else caught that besides me.

It's going to turn into a decision between spend time to get the item or spend money to get the item.

Muizer · January 2015

Personally I think they kind of corrupt the game. I don't think they'll change their plans, but that still leaves me the freedom to decide whether to jump on board or not.

Here's the thing though: if I decide the answer is "no" then I have to stop subscribing. Premium comes with boosters which are the same or equivalent to the kind of items I'd hate to see being sold. It's not fundamentally different whether that's via a sub or a cash shop. It may only be different by degree.

In short, I'd become a hypocrite if I continue subscribing. Not subscribing, otoh, seems rather inconvenient. I was happy with the sub-model and not having to worry about buying stuff piecemeal.

NotSo · January 2015

If it shortcuts more than the 10% that subs get, than I don't like it (I don't like the subs 10% either but ZOS is set on that).

Zershar_Vemod · January 2015

Whoever is surprised, raise their hand.

Rosveen · January 2015

At the extreme, selling max level characters shortcuts some time. Selling rare motifs shortcuts some time. They're leaving the door open for anything from relatively harmless small temporary boosters to bypassing the entire game if you wish.

This answer didn't really answer anything.

Muizer · January 2015

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

Whoever is surprised, raise their hand.

I've seen similar reactions, but whether you're surprised, incensed, resigned, gloating, jaded, or whatever has no bearing on the logic. Whether I'm as cold as ice or foaming at the mouth, 1+1 remains 2.

BlueIllyrian · January 2015

I find that one-shooting say a dungeon boss is a great convenience and it shortcuts my time.

So 1 use = 1 kill potion would fit right in, of course it should be limited for PVE, for the time being until PVP immunity pots are available at the cash store.

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2015

Yeah I wasnt surprised at all to his response to my question. It definitely felt like he was tip toeing there and kind of let the cat out the bag that there will be other things beyond potions, soul gems and repair kits added.

I have mixed feelings on this as sub holders will most definitely have an advantage over B2Pers with the 10% boosts. I personally dont think the boosts are that great. But Im still on the fence about their effects.

As for buying boosts in the Cash Shop. If subs didnt hold an automatic 10% boost to XP Gain, Gold Gain and Crafting. Id probably be angry as an Ogre here. But I guess knowing subs will have built in boosts themselves Im not too upset with the idea of boosts in the Cash Shop. My only concern is if these boosts are better than the sub holders boosts. Then Ill probably have some things to say that will probably need multiple proofings before hitting the Post Comment button.

BlueIllyrian · January 2015

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Yeah I wasnt surprised at all to his response to my question. It definitely felt like he was tip toeing there and kind of let the cat out the bag that there will be other things beyond potions, soul gems and repair kits added.

I have mixed feelings on this as sub holders will most definitely have an advantage over B2Pers with the 10% boosts. I personally dont think the boosts are that great. But Im still on the fence about their effects.

As for buying boosts in the Cash Shop. If subs didnt hold an automatic 10% boost to XP Gain, Gold Gain and Crafting. Id probably be angry as an Ogre here. But I guess knowing subs will have built in boosts themselves Im not too upset with the idea of boosts in the Cash Shop. My only concern is if these boosts are better than the sub holders boosts. Then Ill probably have some things to say that will probably need multiple proofings before hitting the Post Comment button.

Well, off the bat the store will compete with any alchemist and some people make gold in game by buying empty soul gems, filling them and selling them under the vendor price.

Vendor selling soul gems for in game gold will also have to go at some point, of course. As well as white alchemist pots, food, glyphs, etc - the options are limitless.

SgtPepperUK · January 2015

Hate to say it but as maxing CP will take hundreds of hours I'd be surprised if, down the line, exp boosts will be in the store.

People will comment how long it takes to max CP and then ZOS can just interpret that as 'feedback'.

LOTRO's motto was the store provided convenience not advantage, yeah right.

Edit: meant to say I'd be surprised if exp potions weren't in the store.

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2015

BlueIllyrian wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Yeah I wasnt surprised at all to his response to my question. It definitely felt like he was tip toeing there and kind of let the cat out the bag that there will be other things beyond potions, soul gems and repair kits added.

I have mixed feelings on this as sub holders will most definitely have an advantage over B2Pers with the 10% boosts. I personally dont think the boosts are that great. But Im still on the fence about their effects.

As for buying boosts in the Cash Shop. If subs didnt hold an automatic 10% boost to XP Gain, Gold Gain and Crafting. Id probably be angry as an Ogre here. But I guess knowing subs will have built in boosts themselves Im not too upset with the idea of boosts in the Cash Shop. My only concern is if these boosts are better than the sub holders boosts. Then Ill probably have some things to say that will probably need multiple proofings before hitting the Post Comment button.

Well, off the bat the store will compete with any alchemist and some people make gold in game by buying empty soul gems, filling them and selling them under the vendor price.

Vendor selling soul gems for in game gold will also have to go at some point, of course. As well as white alchemist pots, food, glyphs, etc - the options are limitless.

Yeah I know the Potions, at least according to them, will be subpar to crafted items and since that has a point value to it I can actually believe it. But Im not clear as to how the soul gems wont compete with alchemists. Especially since they said they dont want anything bought out of the Cash Shop to become useless due to outleveling.

So this only means that Soul Gems from the store will auto-level with your character.

Maybe if they made it so Alchemist crafted Soul Gems provided some unique boost to the user. Hopefully they arent overlooking this issue.

Muizer · January 2015

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

If subs didnt hold an automatic 10% boost to XP Gain, Gold Gain and Crafting. Id probably be angry as an Ogre here. But I guess knowing subs will have built in boosts themselves Im not too upset with the idea of boosts in the Cash Shop. My only concern is if these boosts are better than the sub holders boosts. Then Ill probably have some things to say that will probably need multiple proofings before hitting the Post Comment button.

In other words, it is ok to buy your advantage via a sub, but not via a cash shop? I think that's where we differ.

BlueIllyrian · January 2015

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

BlueIllyrian wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Yeah I wasnt surprised at all to his response to my question. It definitely felt like he was tip toeing there and kind of let the cat out the bag that there will be other things beyond potions, soul gems and repair kits added.

I have mixed feelings on this as sub holders will most definitely have an advantage over B2Pers with the 10% boosts. I personally dont think the boosts are that great. But Im still on the fence about their effects.

As for buying boosts in the Cash Shop. If subs didnt hold an automatic 10% boost to XP Gain, Gold Gain and Crafting. Id probably be angry as an Ogre here. But I guess knowing subs will have built in boosts themselves Im not too upset with the idea of boosts in the Cash Shop. My only concern is if these boosts are better than the sub holders boosts. Then Ill probably have some things to say that will probably need multiple proofings before hitting the Post Comment button.

Well, off the bat the store will compete with any alchemist and some people make gold in game by buying empty soul gems, filling them and selling them under the vendor price.

Vendor selling soul gems for in game gold will also have to go at some point, of course. As well as white alchemist pots, food, glyphs, etc - the options are limitless.

Yeah I know the Potions, at least according to them, will be subpar to crafted items and since that has a point value to it I can actually believe it. But Im not clear as to how the soul gems wont compete with alchemists. Especially since they said they dont want anything bought out of the Cash Shop to become useless due to outleveling.

So this only means that Soul Gems from the store will auto-level with your character.

Maybe if they made it so Alchemist crafted Soul Gems provided some unique boost to the user. Hopefully they arent overlooking this issue.

I personally expect they will simply claim it's player feedback and make store items stronger than crafted ones. Then throw in autoleveling pots and gems and you have a nice cash cow.

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2015

Muizer wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

If subs didnt hold an automatic 10% boost to XP Gain, Gold Gain and Crafting. Id probably be angry as an Ogre here. But I guess knowing subs will have built in boosts themselves Im not too upset with the idea of boosts in the Cash Shop. My only concern is if these boosts are better than the sub holders boosts. Then Ill probably have some things to say that will probably need multiple proofings before hitting the Post Comment button.

In other words, it is ok to buy your advantage via a sub, but not via a cash shop? I think that's where we differ.

Actually I was saying that the sub advantage makes cash shop boosts okay in my opinion*. I dont see where I made a mistake in how I represented that in the quoted comment.

*As long as Cash Shop Boosts are not better then sub boost.

DDuke · January 2015

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

If subs didnt hold an automatic 10% boost to XP Gain, Gold Gain and Crafting. Id probably be angry as an Ogre here. But I guess knowing subs will have built in boosts themselves Im not too upset with the idea of boosts in the Cash Shop. My only concern is if these boosts are better than the sub holders boosts. Then Ill probably have some things to say that will probably need multiple proofings before hitting the Post Comment button.

In other words, it is ok to buy your advantage via a sub, but not via a cash shop? I think that's where we differ.

Actually I was saying that the sub advantage makes cash shop boosts okay in my opinion*. I dont see where I made a mistake in how I represented that in the quoted comment.

*As long as Cash Shop Boosts are not better then sub boost.

What prevents them from forcing both on you?

First the sub, then XP boosters on top of that.

Gyudan · January 2015

I asked the following question and didn't get an answer:

Where do you set the limit for time-saving items in the Crown Store? A few examples, just answer yes/no if you think they can have a place in the store or not:
- Consumables similar to the ones from NPC vendors
- Consumables only slightly weaker than crafted ones (ex: tripots with slightly less stats)
- Gear from content released > 6 months ago (meaning dungeons/AA/Hel Ra gear currently)
- Gear from very recent content (Sanctum/DSA Veteran currently)
- Gear that won't be accessible ingame
- Loot boosters (ex: 50% more chances to drop a unique helmet in a dungeon)
- More repeatable quests (ex: do 2 daily vet pledges instead of 1 for 50 crowns)
- Upgrade materials (green/blue/purple/gold)
- Regular crafting materials
- Ingame gold

Sylvyr · January 2015

Even convenience items like soul gems seems harmless enough. Vendors sell them right? However, if you, using IN GAME time and means, fill soul gems and sell them, in competition to the vendor prices and other players prices, will now also be competing with a CASH SHOP, that I cannot compete with at ALL. I think that's pretty lousy.

Similar with potions. Sure vendors sell them, and player made potions are superior. But when a buyer spends in game gold for a potion, they have to consider the time and effort it took them for that gold and whether they want to spend that on a superior product or inferior product given the costs and benefits of each. With the cash shop, buyers don't have to consider those marginal decisions in terms of gold-time, they get crowns with sub and can just blam get potions, even though they are inferior, with no effort. And even though they are inferior, this will have an affect on demand from potion sellers, and again, those sellers can't truly compete because they cannot sell their potions at a competitve $$$ currency as a cash shop can.

I know the above is kind of hard to grasp. So here's an analogy that's not exact but close enough:

Pretend you have a burger joint, and there is one other burger joint in town, you sell a better burger but for a dollar more. People tend to like your burger more and are often willing to pay a little more for the superior burger but the inferior burger place gets a decent share of business for other reasons (location, customers with tight money, etc).

Now another business, let's say mm, netflix, decides that with a sub, subbers will get a coupon to redeem at the cheap burger joint, and not yours. Customers that normally come to your place will likely use that coupon at the cheaper place instead. Now your business suffers and you cannot do something like hey we'll take that coupon at our place and charge you the dollar more for the better burger- because your store cannot cash in the coupon with netflix.

"Convenience" items in the store that compete in this way with player made and sold goods should have NO PLACE in the cash store regardless of being "not as good" because it does have negative effects to the player run economy and sellers.

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

If subs didnt hold an automatic 10% boost to XP Gain, Gold Gain and Crafting. Id probably be angry as an Ogre here. But I guess knowing subs will have built in boosts themselves Im not too upset with the idea of boosts in the Cash Shop. My only concern is if these boosts are better than the sub holders boosts. Then Ill probably have some things to say that will probably need multiple proofings before hitting the Post Comment button.

In other words, it is ok to buy your advantage via a sub, but not via a cash shop? I think that's where we differ.

Actually I was saying that the sub advantage makes cash shop boosts okay in my opinion*. I dont see where I made a mistake in how I represented that in the quoted comment.

*As long as Cash Shop Boosts are not better then sub boost.

What prevents them from forcing both on you?

First the sub, then XP boosters on top of that.

They cant force anything on me as my wallet only opens up if I choose it to be. If something seems like its putting me in a situation where I either have to buy it or suffer. I move on from that game and put my money into other things where I dont feel cheated or my effort undermined.

I understand that people want to vocally make it clear they dont want things in the store that force people to buy from the Shop. And Im totally in agreeance with the idea that anything that provides a player an advantage through purchase is inherently wrong. But what we have on our hands is ZOS introducing an advantage to those who are subbing, in essence paying for an advantage, and those who dont sub without it...Unless ZOS puts it in the store.

If the Cash Shop boost is in any way shape or form greater then the Sub Boost. Then like I said before. I will be upset about it and voice my criticism. Ill also more then likely refuse to buy ANYTHING on the Cash Shop til it is changed.

This idea that theyll force you to do anything is quite illogical. You have a choice to either stick with the game or not. Buy or not. If you see something you dont like and feel so strongly about it. The best thing you can do as a consumer/customer is to let them know youre unhappy with it and then walk away from the product. Either enough people will walk away that theyll be forced to change it. Or theyll continue on and youll just have to find another company to do business with. This is how the world of economy and capitalism works. If you complain and stomp your feet about something and continue to pay the company. The message they receive is that they should ignore your complaints because regardless theyll still be taking your money to the bank.

Faulgor · January 2015

Jup, and it's the dumbest reasoning I've heard in a while. If saving time is fair game, just give me a max level 3600 CP full legendary equipped character already, because the only thing stopping me from having one is time.

Paul sage said even more daunting things, but I don't feel like going through the AmA again. Just makes me sick.

DDuke · January 2015

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

If subs didnt hold an automatic 10% boost to XP Gain, Gold Gain and Crafting. Id probably be angry as an Ogre here. But I guess knowing subs will have built in boosts themselves Im not too upset with the idea of boosts in the Cash Shop. My only concern is if these boosts are better than the sub holders boosts. Then Ill probably have some things to say that will probably need multiple proofings before hitting the Post Comment button.

In other words, it is ok to buy your advantage via a sub, but not via a cash shop? I think that's where we differ.

Actually I was saying that the sub advantage makes cash shop boosts okay in my opinion*. I dont see where I made a mistake in how I represented that in the quoted comment.

*As long as Cash Shop Boosts are not better then sub boost.

What prevents them from forcing both on you?

First the sub, then XP boosters on top of that.

They cant force anything on me as my wallet only opens up if I choose it to be. If something seems like its putting me in a situation where I either have to buy it or suffer. I move on from that game and put my money into other things where I dont feel cheated or my effort undermined.

I understand that people want to vocally make it clear they dont want things in the store that force people to buy from the Shop. And Im totally in agreeance with the idea that anything that provides a player an advantage through purchase is inherently wrong. But what we have on our hands is ZOS introducing an advantage to those who are subbing, in essence paying for an advantage, and those who dont sub without it...Unless ZOS puts it in the store.

If the Cash Shop boost is in any way shape or form greater then the Sub Boost. Then like I said before. I will be upset about it and voice my criticism. Ill also more then likely refuse to buy ANYTHING on the Cash Shop til it is changed.

This idea that theyll force you to do anything is quite illogical. You have a choice to either stick with the game or not. Buy or not. If you see something you dont like and feel so strongly about it. The best thing you can do as a consumer/customer is to let them know youre unhappy with it and then walk away from the product. Either enough people will walk away that theyll be forced to change it. Or theyll continue on and youll just have to find another company to do business with. This is how the world of economy and capitalism works. If you complain and stomp your feet about something and continue to pay the company. The message they receive is that they should ignore your complaints because regardless theyll still be taking your money to the bank.

Yes, you are right.

It just makes me sad, because I know it makes no difference.

There's still going to be plenty of people who happily buy into those things, just to be better or be on par with others, because they spent a lot of $$$ instead of being good & dedicated players.

I will never partake in such activities myself, and will be gone the moment they appear.

I hope they never will, but past experiences with B2P MMOs have disappointed me one time after another.

I'm expecting this company to be morally superior to the others, but who am I kidding...

DDuke · January 2015

This was also said by @ZOS_PaulSage in today's AUA:

Our goal with the Crown store is to offer convenience and cosmetic items. Convenience will allow people to save themselves time. It will not allow people to get the best items or become more powerful in the game than another player could achieve. I will say openly that some people feel 'time-saving' items are buy-to-win such as being able to gain experience faster. But our perspective is that removing time barriers is something players want, without providing an unfair advantage in power.

I'd like to pose a couple of questions:

1. Have you considered that these "players" who you claim want "removal of time barriers" might be the very ones who like to participate in P2W?

2. Are you aware that big part of the player base is against "shortcuts", because it undermines the time & effort they put in by actually playing the content?

Aren't games about playing them & having fun, instead of using money to skip everything they have to offer?

Digiman · January 2015

Really couldn't care about XP and gold boosters. It's not like this game has a AH system that would be ruined with a 10% gold increase. Cyrodiil does this for their zone and its not like players are going to get 100 gold coins each kill at most it will be 23 coins.

I do find it funny that people who play MMO's are complaining about XP booster. That has become a staple for these genre for a while now, it not like they will earn enlightenment points any faster which is where I was really worried about the booster packs.

DDuke · January 2015

Digiman wrote: »

Really couldn't care about XP and gold boosters. It's not like this game has a AH system that would be ruined with a 10% gold increase. Cyrodiil does this for their zone and its not like players are going to get 100 gold coins each kill at most it will be 23 coins.

I do find it funny that people who play MMO's are complaining about XP booster. That has become a staple for these genre for a while now, it not like they will earn enlightenment points any faster which is where I was really worried about the booster packs.

Does it make it right, that it's a staple for "this genre"?

It is part of the reason why B2P/F2P games are viewed as low quality money grabs.

Someone having 10% gold means someone will have 10% more gold. He's playing the game more efficiently, because he spent $$$.

How is that even playing field, or not P2W when it comes to buying gear/upgrade materials etc?

10% more XP means that people will spend 10% less time reaching max. level & leveling alts. 10% XP means these people will earn Champion Points 10% faster.

Why is their time more valuable than other players'? What makes them better?

Stupid question, the answer is $$$.

This kind of greed would drive many people away from these games, and will stain the reputation of Elder Scrolls forever.

Muizer · January 2015

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

If subs didnt hold an automatic 10% boost to XP Gain, Gold Gain and Crafting. Id probably be angry as an Ogre here. But I guess knowing subs will have built in boosts themselves Im not too upset with the idea of boosts in the Cash Shop. My only concern is if these boosts are better than the sub holders boosts. Then Ill probably have some things to say that will probably need multiple proofings before hitting the Post Comment button.

In other words, it is ok to buy your advantage via a sub, but not via a cash shop? I think that's where we differ.

Actually I was saying that the sub advantage makes cash shop boosts okay in my opinion*. I dont see where I made a mistake in how I represented that in the quoted comment.

*As long as Cash Shop Boosts are not better then sub boost.

Take as reference people who buy no advantages at all (that is, people without a sub who don't buy at the cash shop either). By subbing you're doing to them what you don't want them to do to you via the cash shop. The means may be different but it amounts to exactly the same thing: buying an advantage others have to spend time playing to get.

IMHO, by subbing you certainly forfeit the moral right to object against the principle. The only thing left is to complain about the quantity and that's a slippery slope.

Edit: don't take that as an attack of some sort btw. It's how I see it and that's what I am considering for myself. It's an argument, and what people do with it is entirely their business.

grimjim398 · January 2015

So for those of who you thought Zenimax intended to police their Crown Shop so as to keep it merely cosmetic, it's one day later and you already have your answer. The store will include items that save time and allow characters to gain experience faster. So next week you'll find out that, well, we said we don't want to sell gear in the Crown Store, but what we really meant was that we won't sell gear that's any better than you can find in the game... Here's your future for you. But of course this is still not pay to win, it's just pay to advance faster. Because, you know, our fans inspire us to make these changes every day.

Elloa · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

I do understand some people don't have as much time to spend playing video games as others, but there are other ways you can address this. You can make leveling easier through patches (as you have been doing), you can make gold easier to get (so it affects everyone).
Discuss.

I don't like XP and Gold booster both to be sold in cash shop OR as bonus for the sub players: I find it some sort of "cheating"
BUT, I'd really rather see those Xp and gold booster in the cash shop than seeing the game being dumbed down! The game had been nerfed enough like this!

Morvul · January 2015

In addition to all the concerns the lot of you has raised already:

This basically opens up the door to the introduction of "artificial" grinds and "convinient" shortcuts around them in the store.
(that's essentially the way the LotRO store went: That game devolved into one gigantomanic grindfest, with tons of "grindboosters" in the store - and essentially no fun contend on which to actually use the stuff you grinded (or bought))

edit to clarify by example:
when Lotro was new and sub-based, there were a few NPC factions for which you could gain (=grind for) reputation. If you did so, you mostly earned cosmetics, as well as a few select items which were usefull to have in tough group-content and raids.

when F2P hit, they introduced metric tons of new NPC factions for which one could grind reputation (and the grind were getting significantly longer too). Grinding all that reputation was also becoming the prime methode of obtaining a large number of best-in-slot items.
However, at the same time production of difficult group content (so, things in which one would actually need a character wearing BiS stuff) was essentally discontinued.
This resulted in the "ironic" situation, that players could a) grind their behinds off, or b) splurge over rather large amounts of cash to avoid the grind - in order to obtain stuff with which they can't do nothing (since there is nothing else to do then the brain-afk grind)

Mograineb16_ESO · January 2015

You guys are finding problems where there is none.

DDuke · January 2015

Mograineb16_ESO wrote: »

You guys are finding problems where there is none.

So you are fine with other people being stronger, richer & able to skip tasks that require effort/skill because they spent $$$?
You are fine with becoming a 2nd grade citizen in this MMO, compared to the credit card warriors that get more of everything than you because $$$?

I wonder, are you one of these credit card warriors?

clocksstoppe · January 2015

well you see, the problem is that time and effort is the only thing of value you can possibly sell in an mmo.