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Buy vs rent ... are we facing hidden increased sub-fees?

Elsterchen
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Hi there,
this whole "P2P-B2P-and-other-3-letter abriviation-thingy" is totally new to me. Till, now i figured this much as from the date tamriel unlimited goes live I can either buy entry to content or rent entry to content. (Is this so far correct?)
So, if I stay subbed I will rent entrance to all content. (Right?)

Now my question: Does anyone know the rent-progression over time ? Can I expect rents to rise (because this happened in other mmos) or is it more likely that rents will cost the same ... in lets say 10 years ?

Does anyone has any experience in this?

Best Answers

  • Rosveen
    Rosveen
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    That "rent" is basically your sub fee. It's likely to stay the same, so if you just stay subscribed all the time, nothing changes compared to the way it was before (at least for now. We'll see crown store powercreep eventually, but this has nothing to do with the price of subscription.) You'll be able to access all DLC as long as you're subbed.

    You could also use the crown stipend subscribers get every month (1500 crowns) to purchase DLC despite already having access to them through the sub. We don't know what the prices will be, so it's hard to say if it'll be enough to get everything, but it's an option. That way you'll still own them even after your subscription expires. That's the safest route for people unsure if they'll always be subbed.
    Answer ✓
  • starkerealm
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    Elsterchen wrote: »
    Does anyone has any experience in this?

    With rents rising? Yep. Or, you meant with MMOs.

    Okay, so... there's more going on here than usual.

    Usually transitioning out of a subscription model is taken as a sign of failure. Subs are down, and the company needs to scramble to make ends meet. That can be going to free to play or buy to play. It doesn't matter, the box 'n sub model failed for them. That's Star Trek Online, The Old Republic, The Secret World, Conan, Champions Online, and nearly every other MMO launched in the last 8 years that didn't isn't WoW, EVE, or completely gone now.

    In those cases, the company is hemorrhaging cash, and they need to do everything they can to shore up their income. At that point, the reflexive reaction is to try squeezing as much blood out of everyone that gets within grabbing distance. Sometimes the game survives, sometimes it continues it's long slide into dying.

    But, that's not exactly what's happened here.

    Most MMOs, you'll see a declining population, subscription numbers drop. But, ESO seems to have remarkably solid retention. From conventional wisdom, taking this game Buy to Play doesn't make a lot of sense.

    So, look at what got announced on the same day. Half of their livestream was about the subscription being made optional... and half of it was about the console launch.

    So, console MMOs are kind of a non-entity. There's DCUO... and that's about it. On the other hand, most MMOs that announce console releases actually end up scrapping them. Back in October, Bethesda told us why. They'd been in negotiations with Sony and Microsoft trying to get the subscription fees for XBL and PS+ waved.

    Now, DCUO is playable without a PS+ subscription (I'm told), but that's also strictly in house. Microsoft was actually pushing harder, demanding that anyone subscribing to a game on their console both had an active XBL subscription and that they got a cut of the additional subscription fee. (Which starts to explain Cryptic's decision to can their 360 ports for Champions and Star Trek.)

    Now, Bethesda can't back out of releasing ESO on consoles. Way too much of their market share is there. They were hoping to leverage that into special treatment, but that doesn't seem to have happened.

    So, now they're left choosing between trying to sell an MMO that requires two subscriptions (totaling $20 a month), (while probably seeing less of that then their PC subs, from their XBone users), and dumping the subscription fee.

    If they only dumped the sub fee from the consoles, that would cause all kinds of dissent, regardless of their reasons, and harm the game. So, the subscription fees are being moved to optional for everyone.

    So... will the rent go up? Maybe, eventually. But, I don't see it happening in the near future, because this doesn't actually look like a company gasping out, and trying to find some way to save itself.
    Answer ✓
  • Iago
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    Winter is coming
    That which we obtain to cheap we esteem to lightly, it is dearness only that gives everything its value.

    -Thomas Pain

  • BlueIllyrian
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    P2P was to ensure funds for console release, B2P will milk that and polish cash shop in preparation of F2P and another junk game in the vein of say Star Trek Online.
  • starkerealm
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    Rosveen wrote: »
    That "rent" is basically your sub fee. It's likely to stay the same, so if you just stay subscribed all the time, nothing changes compared to the way it was before (at least for now. We'll see crown store powercreep eventually, but this has nothing to do with the price of subscription.) You'll be able to access all DLC as long as you're subbed.

    You could also use the crown stipend subscribers get every month (1500 crowns) to purchase DLC despite already having access to them through the sub. We don't know what the prices will be, so it's hard to say if it'll be enough to get everything, but it's an option. That way you'll still own them even after your subscription expires. That's the safest route for people unsure if they'll always be subbed.

    While we don't know what those crowns will work out to... I think we can safely say, "no, it won't be enough to get everything." But, just going off how fake money currencies usually work, I'm willing to bet 1500 will be enough to get a couple neat things every month.

    Obviously, we'll actually know once the Crowns hit PTS.
  • Rosveen
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    Rosveen wrote: »
    That "rent" is basically your sub fee. It's likely to stay the same, so if you just stay subscribed all the time, nothing changes compared to the way it was before (at least for now. We'll see crown store powercreep eventually, but this has nothing to do with the price of subscription.) You'll be able to access all DLC as long as you're subbed.

    You could also use the crown stipend subscribers get every month (1500 crowns) to purchase DLC despite already having access to them through the sub. We don't know what the prices will be, so it's hard to say if it'll be enough to get everything, but it's an option. That way you'll still own them even after your subscription expires. That's the safest route for people unsure if they'll always be subbed.

    While we don't know what those crowns will work out to... I think we can safely say, "no, it won't be enough to get everything." But, just going off how fake money currencies usually work, I'm willing to bet 1500 will be enough to get a couple neat things every month.

    Obviously, we'll actually know once the Crowns hit PTS.
    Yeah, I didn't mean everything as in every single item available in the story, but rather the important DLC if you decide to save up for them. We won't be seeing them every month, so it could work out.
  • fromtesonlineb16_ESO
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    In those cases, the company is hemorrhaging cash, and they need to do everything they can to shore up their income. At that point, the reflexive reaction is to try squeezing as much blood out of everyone that gets within grabbing distance. Sometimes the game survives, sometimes it continues it's long slide into dying.

    But, that's not exactly what's happened here.

    Most MMOs, you'll see a declining population, subscription numbers drop. But, ESO seems to have remarkably solid retention. From conventional wisdom, taking this game Buy to Play doesn't make a lot of sense.
    You're making things up because you don't want to admit ESO is the same kind of financial failure LoTRO, Rift and SW:TOR (to name three MMOs I played since launch and still play) were which is why they went down the road ZOS are going.

    You have no idea what the retention figures are, ZOS haven't said, you're simply posting that to try to help you believe ESO is in some ways different from those games I name, and others: deluding yourself isn't going to change reality.

    Sadly all the games forums for those games I mention cleared out then forums, I can't link any more the scores of posts on those forums that are simply being repeated round here, now.

    Every one of those games had players convince 'their' game was different and that the change was long-planned and intended: the fact Rift went F2P within 18 months of its launch and Trion were adamant it wasn't going to go F2P, while SW:TOR didn't last 6 months, was entirely ignored by those players desperately trying to avoid facing reality.

    I'm waiting to see, if ESO follows Rift then the game will largely be unaffected and the Store something easily avoided if one wants to, if ZOS follow Turbine however ESO's design will become simply a 'driver' for the Store and all integrity in the design process will evaporate.

    Time will tell.

  • Robocles
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    In those cases, the company is hemorrhaging cash, and they need to do everything they can to shore up their income. At that point, the reflexive reaction is to try squeezing as much blood out of everyone that gets within grabbing distance. Sometimes the game survives, sometimes it continues it's long slide into dying.

    But, that's not exactly what's happened here.

    Most MMOs, you'll see a declining population, subscription numbers drop. But, ESO seems to have remarkably solid retention. From conventional wisdom, taking this game Buy to Play doesn't make a lot of sense.
    You're making things up because you don't want to admit ESO is the same kind of financial failure LoTRO, Rift and SW:TOR (to name three MMOs I played since launch and still play) were which is why they went down the road ZOS are going.

    You have no idea what the retention figures are, ZOS haven't said, you're simply posting that to try to help you believe ESO is in some ways different from those games I name, and others: deluding yourself isn't going to change reality.

    Sadly all the games forums for those games I mention cleared out then forums, I can't link any more the scores of posts on those forums that are simply being repeated round here, now.

    Every one of those games had players convince 'their' game was different and that the change was long-planned and intended: the fact Rift went F2P within 18 months of its launch and Trion were adamant it wasn't going to go F2P, while SW:TOR didn't last 6 months, was entirely ignored by those players desperately trying to avoid facing reality.

    I'm waiting to see, if ESO follows Rift then the game will largely be unaffected and the Store something easily avoided if one wants to, if ZOS follow Turbine however ESO's design will become simply a 'driver' for the Store and all integrity in the design process will evaporate.

    Time will tell.

    I agree completely, especially regarding these "retention" numbers. They keep getting regurgitated, and have no real merit. The company that published them uses dubious metrics to come up with those numbers, and even went as far as to say they somehow were using information that is illegal for them to obtain (in the States, at least).

    My biggest concern going forward is the pricing and timing of this DLC content. They can't make them too expensive, or the console players will just not buy it. But, if they make it too inexpensive, then my sub fee makes little sense going forward, since I lose access to that content if I stop paying. I'd likely be better off just buying the DLC as they came out. A 10% XP buff really isn't worth it.
  • BlueIllyrian
    BlueIllyrian
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    In those cases, the company is hemorrhaging cash, and they need to do everything they can to shore up their income. At that point, the reflexive reaction is to try squeezing as much blood out of everyone that gets within grabbing distance. Sometimes the game survives, sometimes it continues it's long slide into dying.

    But, that's not exactly what's happened here.

    Most MMOs, you'll see a declining population, subscription numbers drop. But, ESO seems to have remarkably solid retention. From conventional wisdom, taking this game Buy to Play doesn't make a lot of sense.
    You're making things up because you don't want to admit ESO is the same kind of financial failure LoTRO, Rift and SW:TOR (to name three MMOs I played since launch and still play) were which is why they went down the road ZOS are going.

    You have no idea what the retention figures are, ZOS haven't said, you're simply posting that to try to help you believe ESO is in some ways different from those games I name, and others: deluding yourself isn't going to change reality.

    Sadly all the games forums for those games I mention cleared out then forums, I can't link any more the scores of posts on those forums that are simply being repeated round here, now.

    Every one of those games had players convince 'their' game was different and that the change was long-planned and intended: the fact Rift went F2P within 18 months of its launch and Trion were adamant it wasn't going to go F2P, while SW:TOR didn't last 6 months, was entirely ignored by those players desperately trying to avoid facing reality.

    I'm waiting to see, if ESO follows Rift then the game will largely be unaffected and the Store something easily avoided if one wants to, if ZOS follow Turbine however ESO's design will become simply a 'driver' for the Store and all integrity in the design process will evaporate.

    Time will tell.

    Good points, I would bet on Turbine scenario with end product looking a lot like NWO or STO.
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    You're making things up because you don't want to admit ESO is the same kind of financial failure LoTRO, Rift and SW:TOR (to name three MMOs I played since launch and still play) were which is why they went down the road ZOS are going.
    Nope. Sorry, your trolling is in another castle.
    You have no idea what the retention figures are,

    Actually, I've got a pretty good idea.
    ZOS haven't said,

    But, Steam has. And, while that data is useless for calculating overall subscriber numbers, it's fine for tracking general population trends. Unless you want to say people who play games on steam are fundamentally different from anyone else.
    you're simply posting that to try to help you believe ESO is in some ways different from those games I name, and others: deluding yourself isn't going to change reality.

    No, I checked, and I've seen enough player statistics to know this is not normal behavior for an MMO. I'll be honest, ESO's active player data does not look like a normal MMO's trending, it's just weird in that regard. It does look like freakishly high retention for an MMO, though.
  • starkerealm
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    Robocles wrote: »
    The company that published them uses dubious metrics to come up with those numbers, and even went as far as to say they somehow were using information that is illegal for them to obtain (in the States, at least).

    To be honest, given the state of US law, accidentally picking up your girlfriend's phone and posting an update to her facebook timeline is illegal.

    But, tell ya what, why don't you link to your "probably illegal" page, and I'll tell you if you're using the same source I am.
  • Robocles
    Robocles
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    Robocles wrote: »
    The company that published them uses dubious metrics to come up with those numbers, and even went as far as to say they somehow were using information that is illegal for them to obtain (in the States, at least).

    To be honest, given the state of US law, accidentally picking up your girlfriend's phone and posting an update to her facebook timeline is illegal.

    But, tell ya what, why don't you link to your "probably illegal" page, and I'll tell you if you're using the same source I am.

    Actually... how about you go read the report you are using as the basis for your argument. I don't have to prove to you what's in it... do a search, I'm sure you can find it.
  • starkerealm
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    Robocles wrote: »
    Robocles wrote: »
    The company that published them uses dubious metrics to come up with those numbers, and even went as far as to say they somehow were using information that is illegal for them to obtain (in the States, at least).

    To be honest, given the state of US law, accidentally picking up your girlfriend's phone and posting an update to her facebook timeline is illegal.

    But, tell ya what, why don't you link to your "probably illegal" page, and I'll tell you if you're using the same source I am.

    Actually... how about you go read the report you are using as the basis for your argument. I don't have to prove to you what's in it... do a search, I'm sure you can find it.

    So, what you're saying is; your source is your buddy who is also "secretly a master hacker," gotcha.

    Yeah, free advice? Don't listen to that guy, he's just draggin' you along.
    Edited by starkerealm on January 23, 2015 2:38PM
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