An issue with ESO Plus that I'd like feedback on

DeLindsay · January 2015

I have (1) issue so far with the B2P announcement, and that's the "rental" of DLC for ESO Plus members. Lets say for example that Wrothgar is the first DLC, that it comes out in July (after Console launch) and it costs $19.99. In this example there are 2 different Players, Player A who has chosen not to pay a monthly sub after March 17th and Player B who pays every month for ESO Plus. It's been 4 months since the change to B2P occurs.

Player A - Paid nothing for 4 months, buys Wrothgar for $19.99.

Player B - Paid $60 for 4 months, has full access to Wrothgar while subbing.

In August (month 5) Player A does not pay a monthly sub, has still only paid $19.99 for full game access. Player B lets their sub cancel for the month of August for w/e reason and loses access to Wrothgar, but has paid $60 to ZoS. How is ZoS justifying ESO Plus's "rental" of DLC when under this very example above the ESO Plus member paid 3x the cost of the Wrothgar DLC yet loses access while the free player just dropped $20 and has full access forever?

The way it SHOULD work is that the month a DLC hits, if the ESO Plus member has paid more in sub fees than the cost of said DLC (including the cost of previous DLCs) they get permanent access to said DLC. That would keep players from only subbing for the month of the DLC and getting a possible discount on the cost of it.

A further example:

Player A - Pays for 1 month sub in July for $15, has access to Wrothgar for July. They would need to pay for another monthly sub ($30 total) in order to have permanent access to the $20 Wrothgar DLC. Or they could have paid only the DLC cost and no sub fee to have permanent access.

Player B - Has subbed the entire time since March 17th at $15/mo. In July Wrothgar comes out and Player B has permanent access since they have exceeded the $20 cost. In August a 2nd DLC comes out for $25 ($45 for both), Player B has permanent access to both DLC's since they have now subbed for 5 months at a cost of $75. And this example could continue forever.

I feel this cheapens the ESO Plus concept as the monthly "rewards" for continued sub are negligible outside of the possibility of permanent account access to DLC if the sub cost has exceeded the DLC costs.

DeLindsay · January 2015

Bumping for exposure, this thread dropped to page 2 in ~14 minutes lol.

Elsonso · January 2015

I doubt that they will make DLC content permanent for Subscribers. This is a B2P with a cash store game. The premium subscription is a transition from the current model to the new one and a way for those who prefer subscriptions to have one. Those that take a subscription will be expected to supplement the subscription with cash store purchases and they hope it will average more than 1500 Crowns/mo. Purchasing the DLC against future loss is one way to meet that expectation.

Cuyler · January 2015

I'm assuming the 10% increase to xp/gold/research etc. and giving the 1500 crowns is how they are going to justify it.

In other words the subs pay for crowns and convenience. Over the 5 months:

Player B- $60, 6000 crowns, increased xp/gold, no DLC
Player A- $20, no crowns, reg xp/gold, DLC

wiz12268b14_ESO · January 2015

I went over it in a few comments. You do what is cheapest (if you want to save money) or if the cost is less per crowns than you earn with a sub you can then also buy them ad have them permanently.

I suspect it will be cheaper to sub now and then, "rent' the content and move on and for get it. Unless they make some compelling reasons you would need to go back to it.

So by your example stop subbing right now (with all known options) and then in July after or day of Wrothgar release you sub for 30 days, and then get access for a 'normal' 14.99 where you will also get 1500 crowns. Play it, if you like it buy it. If you dont or it doesnt offer anything for you bank those 1500 credits. Sub lapses then X amount of day later another DLC drops you resub there for 30 days as well and do that DLC.

Now I know theyre offering a 12 month sub in a little bit (probably a few weeks before transition) I really suspect that 12 month option will have some special mount (they alluded to it yesterday) and maybe some other things. I also suspect it to be an 'amazing' price, as in $99.99. That price will also get you 18K credits/crowns upfront.

If it is that price I expect they sell a lot of them, as in 75% of the total box sales they had at release. For a buy to play game with a sub option if they can do that it is basically maintaining (and if they sell that many) increasing their sub model going forward.

That is obviously a gamble since we dont know how many DLCs they plan on releasing over the next 12 months. One can assume it will be more than 'normal' because undoubtedly they have quite a few 'in the can' ready to release. Now whether they release them in a quicker fashion is anyone's guess. But I also suspect they will try and release at least 3 if not four a year. Because regardless of how people obtain them it will be a continuous revenue stream.

Its going to be a little game people play I am sure on getting what they want and paying the least amount for it. But of course there are people that love the game and want it all and they will more than likely sub as well as buy the DLCs outright too.

Gorthax · January 2015

I think that is why they are giving us the crowns for subbing. Buy the DLC with those crowns then spend more money to get cosmetics OR dont buy the dlc with the free crowns and waste it on cosmetics.

If the dlc cost less than what you are getting out of crown allowance per month then you can use those to get it. If it does not and cost, lets say, 500 more crowns than the basic allowance (thank you mommy and daddy) then they should adjust it to be above the dlc cost that way we have the option to buy the dlc with the crowns we get for subbing.

Rosveen · January 2015

It's the third thread on this issue I've seen, maybe this one won't drop like a rock if the ZOS tags attract someone official.

Atm I'm unsubbing until March when I see the cash shop, maybe get an idea of DLC prices and decide what works for me. If subbing equaled DLC purchase, not rental, I'd instantly sub back. So I'm very interested if there's a chance for changing the current rules.

DeLindsay wrote: »

The way it SHOULD work is that the month a DLC hits, if the ESO Plus member has paid more in sub fees than the cost of said DLC (including the cost of previous DLCs) they get permanent access to said DLC. That would keep players from only subbing for the month of the DLC and getting a possible discount on the cost of it.

Or maybe give it only to 3 and 6 month subscribers? That way even if you try to resub just for the DLC, you have to pay at least $45, which surely is enough to cover the price of just about any DLC they release.

Faulgor · January 2015

Cuyler wrote: »

I'm assuming the 10% increase to xp/gold/research etc. and giving the 1500 crowns is how they are going to justify it.

In other words the subs pay for crowns and convenience. Over the 5 months:

Player B- $60, 6000 crowns, increased xp/gold, no DLC
Player A- $20, no crowns, reg xp/gold, DLC

Exactly, you get 6000 crowns during your subscription, and could easily spend 2000 on Wrothgar if you so chose.

Gidorick · January 2015

I would like it if they tiered the subscriptions. To where the 3 month and 6 month subscribers received the DLC permanently.

Rosveen · January 2015

Faulgor wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

I'm assuming the 10% increase to xp/gold/research etc. and giving the 1500 crowns is how they are going to justify it.

In other words the subs pay for crowns and convenience. Over the 5 months:

Player B- $60, 6000 crowns, increased xp/gold, no DLC
Player A- $20, no crowns, reg xp/gold, DLC

Exactly, you get 6000 crowns during your subscription, and could easily spend 2000 on Wrothgar if you so chose.

We don't know how much a crown is worth yet.

I really wish they'd given us more details about the new system. This announcement only raised more questions that will stay unanswered for another month.

Psychobunni · January 2015

My husband and I were discussing the same thing this morning, and another guildmate and I last night. For the moment it's stay subbed until getting all of our "loyalty" crap.

After that it will simply be whatever is the most cost effective solution. If the crowns given from sub buy the content permanently that may work well enough for it to remain viable, or say they release new content ever 2-3 months for 30-45 bucks..then staying subbed remains viable. But yeah, if its cheaper to simply unsub and buy content, count us in lost subs.

The rest of the "benefits" gold/xp/crafting...don't really benefit players who have been here from start playing a bit more than casual. I mean, I have 2 V14s, cpl VR 1's. Most crafting I was bothered with is done. I make enough gold to stay afloat, etc.

BBSooner · January 2015

Assuming DLC could be purchasable via crowns, the response could be:

"If person B wants access to Wrothgar after their sub ends, they should spend a portion of their monthly crown allotment on purchasing Wrothgar outright."

Edit: I see this detailed out above. This would be my guess.

Enodoc · January 2015

Gorthax wrote: »

I think that is why they are giving us the crowns for subbing. Buy the DLC with those crowns then spend more money to get cosmetics OR dont buy the dlc with the free crowns and waste it on cosmetics.

If the dlc cost less than what you are getting out of crown allowance per month then you can use those to get it. If it does not and cost, lets say, 500 more crowns than the basic allowance (thank you mommy and daddy) then they should adjust it to be above the dlc cost that way we have the option to buy the dlc with the crowns we get for subbing.

I agree. Use your free Crowns to keep the content. Basically means that each DLC should cost somewhere around 2000 Crowns (since there's unlikely to be new DLC every 30 days).

Dekkameron · January 2015

LOTRO sells its DLC (expansions) for turbine points. I hope ESO will too.

Faulgor · January 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

I'm assuming the 10% increase to xp/gold/research etc. and giving the 1500 crowns is how they are going to justify it.

In other words the subs pay for crowns and convenience. Over the 5 months:

Player B- $60, 6000 crowns, increased xp/gold, no DLC
Player A- $20, no crowns, reg xp/gold, DLC

Exactly, you get 6000 crowns during your subscription, and could easily spend 2000 on Wrothgar if you so chose.

We don't know how much a crown is worth yet.

I really wish they'd given us more details about the new system. This announcement only raised more questions that will stay unanswered for another month.

We also don't know how much Wrothgar will cost. Let's hope we will see some numbers once 1.6 and the Crown Store hit the PTS next week.

DeLindsay · January 2015

I certainly agree that the monthly allotment of Crowns could be used for DLC purchase, if the cost isn't prohibitive. It's also entirely possible that with 1500/mo ESO Plus members might run out of vanity stuff they like in short order, if the cost of those is low. I'm just looking at it from a cost-loyalty standpoint. For those who choose to continue paying ZoS monthly it seems reasonable that future DLC's would be permanently attached to the account (IF) the sub total exceeded the DLC cost.

We may find out just how expensive, or cheap, the cosmetic bits are on Monday if indeed 1.6 hits PTS that day as Matt hopes. As for DLC costs, we won't know that for a good while now so it's possible Wrothgar could cost 2K Crowns or 20K. My post isn't a whine thread just a reasonable question so I hope people are taking it as such. I'll probably keep subbing at least in the short term and see how it all pans out. It's also very likely that we're all reading too much into the announcement yesterday and everything will be properly in-line.

Valencer · January 2015

Not so sure if we'll be able to see it on PTS. I think they mentioned the cash store would be disabled until march the 17th.

SFBryan18 · January 2015

Thought I read that subscription content would not be in the crown store.

DeLindsay · January 2015

Valencer wrote: »

Not so sure if we'll be able to see it on PTS. I think they mentioned the cash store would be disabled until march the 17th.

In the Live Stream Matt made it sound like the Cash Shop (short of DLC's obviously) would be on the PTS for us to check out prices of items. Now whether that means it'll be there Monday or March 17th I have no idea. And yes they did say the Cash shop would be disabled on Live servers when 1.6 hits Live.

Cuyler · January 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

The rest of the "benefits" gold/xp/crafting...don't really benefit players who have been here from start playing a bit more than casual. I mean, I have 2 V14s, cpl VR 1's. Most crafting I was bothered with is done. I make enough gold to stay afloat, etc.

Remember that the release of the Champion system means you need to continue the xp grind to earn champion points, so the v14s you have now will only have 70 CPs, the remainder of CPs available you still need to earn. Therefore, you will still want the +10% XP if you plan to work through the CS.

Psychobunni · January 2015

Cuyler wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

The rest of the "benefits" gold/xp/crafting...don't really benefit players who have been here from start playing a bit more than casual. I mean, I have 2 V14s, cpl VR 1's. Most crafting I was bothered with is done. I make enough gold to stay afloat, etc.

Remember that the release of the Champion system means you need to continue the xp grind to earn champion points, so the v14s you have now will only have 70 CPs, the remainder of CPs available you still need to earn. Therefore, you will still want the +10% XP if you plan to work through the CS.

Yes, I considered that as well. I'm somewhere between casual and hardcore, I need end game min/max....so for me personally, its not a bonus worth paying more for. That may change when I get a peek at 1.6 ofc....I'm dreaming of that archer I haven't found comfortably (for me) in current state, so who knows?

Gorthax · January 2015

well judging by the 1500 crowns per month I think it is safe to assume they have the prices worked out already.

We pay 15.00 dollars a month for 1500 crowns. So I think it is a safe assumption that 100 crowns is equal to 1.99. It is pretty common to see that in cash shops.

Or maybe it is even 200 crowns for 2.99 which puts you at 1000 crowns for 15 dollars but entices you to get the "extra" by simply subscribing.

if thats the case, expect outfits to be 150 crowns (that way it gives you remainders and makes you want to buy more), mounts to be about 350-550, and I would assume dlc is probably going to be about 1700 crowns. At 2.99 for 200 crowns that is 24 dollars for dlc. Still making subbing cheaper.

This is all some VERY rough estimates but I do believe I am in the ball park. Not counting on higher costing crown packages with added crowns to sweeten the deal.

Tandor · January 2015

Valencer wrote: »

Not so sure if we'll be able to see it on PTS. I think they mentioned the cash store would be disabled until march the 17th.

The way I understand it, both the cash store and 1.6 will go on the PTS next week, but when they transfer to the Live servers (before 17th March) the cash store will be disabled until the changeover on 17th March.

wiz12268b14_ESO · January 2015

I doubt the calculations above.

I suspect a crown will be 2 cents. So 1500 is 7.50 (less any bonuses they might give for any real cash purchases they offer)

I also suspect DLC will be 19.99 on average. Thus they will cost at least 4000 crowns in the store if not more (to counteract the bonuses one would expect) I expect crowns bought with cash on the most expensive option with the best bonus will get you to maybe 1.25 cents per crown. So a $100 package gets to a base of 10K crowns and a 2500 crown bonus.

Its way too much to ask that a sub is going to pay for DLC on a 1 for one basis. That isnt economically feasible for them.

Even at 4000 crowns (assuming they sell them for crowns) subbing for one year (12 months)will buy 4.5 of them outright. Will they release thant many a year? Doubtful I suspect 3 maybe 4. With only 2 of those being 'major' and one or two being 'supplemental".

No matter what it will more than likely be better at least on the surface to take advantage of any 'specials' they offer with the initial transition.

xaade · January 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

Bumping for exposure, this thread dropped to page 2 in ~14 minutes lol.

I almost would argue for this idea, however that IS the opportunity cost.

You are allowed to cancel sub and pay for the DLC as it comes out just as anyone else.

What they have to do is justify the cost of the sub. The value of the buffs + the rate at which they build DLC will decide whether I sub.

Gorthax · January 2015

wiz12268b14_ESO wrote: »

I doubt the calculations above.

I suspect a crown will be 2 cents. So 1500 is 7.50 (less any bonuses they might give for any real cash purchases they offer)

I also suspect DLC will be 19.99 on average. Thus they will cost at least 4000 crowns in the store if not more (to counteract the bonuses one would expect) I expect crowns bought with cash on the most expensive option with the best bonus will get you to maybe 1.25 cents per crown. So a $100 package gets to a base of 10K crowns and a 2500 crown bonus.

Its way too much to ask that a sub is going to pay for DLC on a 1 for one basis. That isnt economically feasible for them.

Even at 4000 crowns (assuming they sell them for crowns) subbing for one year (12 months)will buy 4.5 of them outright. Will they release thant many a year? Doubtful I suspect 3 maybe 4. With only 2 of those being 'major' and one or two being 'supplemental".

No matter what it will more than likely be better at least on the surface to take advantage of any 'specials' they offer with the initial transition.

but 1500 is LESS than 15 dollars a month with your calculation so it makes zero sense for them to do it that way. We pay 15 dollars a month for 7.50 worth of stuff? No one would do the sub then lol

DeLindsay · January 2015

I'd say @Gorthax's response about Wrothgar (and other DLC Zones) costing roughly 2K+ Crowns might be accurate if we can indeed purchase DLC with Crowns. That way it'd be more expensive that a single monthly sub but cheaper than 2 months, or the equivalent of between $15-30 for each DLC, which makes sense. That would also be reasonable for ESO Plus as how many Costumes/Pets/etc do you really need/want. If this is the case, then I see it as a reasonable system, and frankly when I wrote this thread I hadn't thought about the capability of purchasing DLC with the Crowns that ESO Plus is allotted each month. Thanks for the responses folks.

Kraven · January 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

I certainly agree that the monthly allotment of Crowns could be used for DLC purchase, if the cost isn't prohibitive. It's also entirely possible that with 1500/mo ESO Plus members might run out of vanity stuff they like in short order, if the cost of those is low. I'm just looking at it from a cost-loyalty standpoint. For those who choose to continue paying ZoS monthly it seems reasonable that future DLC's would be permanently attached to the account (IF) the sub total exceeded the DLC cost.

We may find out just how expensive, or cheap, the cosmetic bits are on Monday if indeed 1.6 hits PTS that day as Matt hopes. As for DLC costs, we won't know that for a good while now so it's possible Wrothgar could cost 2K Crowns or 20K. My post isn't a whine thread just a reasonable question so I hope people are taking it as such. I'll probably keep subbing at least in the short term and see how it all pans out. It's also very likely that we're all reading too much into the announcement yesterday and everything will be properly in-line.

Here's a concern to consider. Money. It's what they want. If it is cheaper to subscribe and get All the items from the cash shop that you want in short order more people will do that. Many of the items will end up costing more than you get in any one month allotment, they don't just want B2P players spending money on the cash shop items, they will want you subscribers also spending money on it.

You worded it nicer than I did, but tbh I've never been very good at editing myself.

Kraven wrote: »

Will DLC updates be large ones every 4-6 months or more small ones every 2-4 months, trying to earn sales yearly on 3-6 "DLC" sales?

How much will DLC cost? If it is released one per every 3 months, is it going to sell for the $45 that Unlimited members have paid in subs? Not sure how many console players would pay 45 every 3 months considering they apparently had such an issue with sub model in the first place. So IF dlc is available every 3 months for the expected $10-20 what is the benefit of paying the additional $25-$35?

3 months seems like a very quick time table to release new content for a B2P game. Take GW for example, it after all has the exact same business model:
Three stand-alone episodes, one major expansion pack, and several "mini"-expansions were released in the series from April 2005 to April 2013

So how long do you realistically see quality rich content worth the price of DLC to be released? How do you balance keeping that DLC cheap while keeping subs, supporting development of cheap content?

The 'rental' aspect is another very good question.
It's been proven now that subscription alone is not enough money.

wiz12268b14_ESO · January 2015

Gorthax wrote: »

wiz12268b14_ESO wrote: »

I doubt the calculations above.

I suspect a crown will be 2 cents. So 1500 is 7.50 (less any bonuses they might give for any real cash purchases they offer)

I also suspect DLC will be 19.99 on average. Thus they will cost at least 4000 crowns in the store if not more (to counteract the bonuses one would expect) I expect crowns bought with cash on the most expensive option with the best bonus will get you to maybe 1.25 cents per crown. So a $100 package gets to a base of 10K crowns and a 2500 crown bonus.

Its way too much to ask that a sub is going to pay for DLC on a 1 for one basis. That isnt economically feasible for them.

Even at 4000 crowns (assuming they sell them for crowns) subbing for one year (12 months)will buy 4.5 of them outright. Will they release thant many a year? Doubtful I suspect 3 maybe 4. With only 2 of those being 'major' and one or two being 'supplemental".

No matter what it will more than likely be better at least on the surface to take advantage of any 'specials' they offer with the initial transition.

but 1500 is LESS than 15 dollars a month with your calculation so it makes zero sense for them to do it that way. We pay 15 dollars a month for 7.50 worth of stuff? No one would do the sub then lol

why would they give you one for one? You get perks and crowns and free access to DLC. The 'free' access to DLC has a value.

My exchange might not be perfect but I am sure it will be close.

Potenza · January 2015

This post is fine example of taking something simple, and making it overly complicated.

Stonesthrow · January 2015

wiz12268b14_ESO wrote: »

Now I know theyre offering a 12 month sub in a little bit (probably a few weeks before transition) I really suspect that 12 month option will have some special mount (they alluded to it yesterday) and maybe some other things. I also suspect it to be an 'amazing' price, as in $99.99. That price will also get you 18K credits/crowns upfront.

Where did you see that a 12 month sub is being offered? Like the $99 idea though…

The 12 month mount is for people WHO HAVE BEEN subbed for 12 months, not going forward, It is a past loyalty reward not a future one. Watch it again.