ESO+ 10% XP gain does not equal "pay to win"

Nijjion · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

But of course you are right, how could you not be? You are obviously one of the "chosen ones" that are never wrong. The internet is full of you people.

Saying you will "eventually" reach the cap if you play a lot is just guesswork at the moment.
I could say I will get a space ship one day, but there's a reasonable chance it will not happen.

What if they keep adding more Champion Points faster than your human body permits you to grind them?

Also, you should probably be aware by now that majority of players will most likely never even reach 2000 points.

Lastly, does it really matter, if one reaches the CP cap 2 years from now? That person will have exactly 10% more points for those 2 years than someone who didn't spend $$$. Once they add more CPs, the cycle begins anew.

Advantages for $$$ that affect you character's power compared to others in equal situation=P2W

Thanks for admitting that, I know it's hard to argue when you are being stupid and being over dramatic but that's the first step at least.

Advantages with time and efficiency that doesn't change the end result is not P2W as stated before. As stated, a person with 2000 CP without a sub is even footing with someone with 2000 CP with a sub(or stuff from their aesthetic pay shop). The only difference is time it takes to get to that... and that isn't the definition of B2W... Why don't you make up a new term like B2GIF (Buy 2 get it faster?). Though in that definition you will need to make sure you state it's not something that gives you an advantage in battle but makes your time more efficient and quicker.

It's like saying everyone who got VR10 first and pvp'd against people who were not even VR ranks was unfair. (Obviously cannot say B2W as they had the same opportunity). What about the AvA ranks for all the new players are you going to moan about the current high ranks being having a headstart against new players? Obviously to state here that yes people who play the same amount of hours the person on a sub will get it quicker, but that's the advantage of paying with $$$, but as stated again many times it will never give you a advantage in battle as a end result.

DAoC also had a similar system with PvP ranks (like AvA ranks but harder to achieve) those people had massive advantage over new/less play time players... did people QQ?... No because that was the game system.

I'm done anyway with arguing, shouldn't of spent this amount of time explain this but anyway there's not much else I can explain to make it any more simple.

DDuke · January 2015

Nijjion wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

But of course you are right, how could you not be? You are obviously one of the "chosen ones" that are never wrong. The internet is full of you people.

Saying you will "eventually" reach the cap if you play a lot is just guesswork at the moment.
I could say I will get a space ship one day, but there's a reasonable chance it will not happen.

What if they keep adding more Champion Points faster than your human body permits you to grind them?

Also, you should probably be aware by now that majority of players will most likely never even reach 2000 points.

Lastly, does it really matter, if one reaches the CP cap 2 years from now? That person will have exactly 10% more points for those 2 years than someone who didn't spend $$$. Once they add more CPs, the cycle begins anew.

Advantages for $$$ that affect you character's power compared to others in equal situation=P2W

Thanks for admitting that, I know it's hard to argue when you are being stupid and being over dramatic but that's the first step at least.

Advantages with time and efficiency that doesn't change the end result is not P2W as stated before. As stated, a person with 2000 CP without a sub is even footing with someone with 2000 CP with a sub(or stuff from their aesthetic pay shop). The only difference is time it takes to get to that... and that isn't the definition of B2W... Why don't you make up a new term like B2GIF (Buy 2 get it faster?). Though in that definition you will need to make sure you state it's not something that gives you an advantage in battle but makes your time more efficient and quicker.

It's like saying everyone who got VR10 first and pvp'd against people who were not even VR ranks was unfair. (Obviously cannot say B2W as they had the same opportunity). What about the AvA ranks for all the new players are you going to moan about the current high ranks being having a headstart against new players? Obviously to state here that yes people who play the same amount of hours the person on a sub will get it quicker, but that's the advantage of paying with $$$, but as stated again many times it will never give you a advantage in battle as a end result.

DAoC also had a similar system with PvP ranks (like AvA ranks but harder to achieve) those people had massive advantage over new/less play time players... did people QQ?... No because that was the game system.

I'm done anyway with arguing, shouldn't of spent this amount of time explain this but anyway there's not much else I can explain to make it any more simple.

Your whole point caves in on one major flaw: you didn't need to pay $$$ to achieve max. level faster. Well, Rings of Mara kind of (I didn't like them either), but max. level was reached in 5 days, not 2 years (or possibly ever) like with CP.

Nor can you pay $$$ to get AvA ranks faster, you just play & see who is best at getting them.

And yes, people always QQ about other players being stronger than they are.

Personally I'm fine with it, if I can achieve it through skill & dedication to the game, but not by paying $$$.

$$$ for Advantages=P2W

Sorry if you still fail to see it, must be the 8th or 9th time I state this.
Maybe I should try without the equation mark & dollar signs, maybe those are confusing you.

Dollars (or Euros) for advantages in game mean you are paying for a better chance at winning a fight.

PsylverRaven · January 2015

If you are worried about another player advancing or being 10% better than you, sub.

I honestly believe at least 75% of other players are already waaay more than 10% higher and most certainly more than 10% better than me now. It has no impact on my enjoyment of the game. I just have to work harder and smarter.

We do need to focus on the bigger things that spoil the game. I think we can all remember not being able to use chat because of gold sellers and not being able to complete quests because of bots.

One thing we have learned over the past year is game mechanics can be changed. We can work with the Devs to adjust them, but it won't matter if the f2p / b2p spoilers take over.

Melian · January 2015

OP, so buffs are p2w but not if you get them because of the xp bonus? Man, some people will tie themselves up in knots to explain this away.

I like the game. I'm sad that it's being ruined. But denying that it's being ruined? That doesn't help anyone.

Govalon · January 2015

PsylverRaven wrote: »

If you are worried about another player advancing or being 10% better than you, sub.

I am not worried about that because I will be one those players who buys advantages. This does not make it less pay to win when I am the person paying to win. You make no sense.

Gyudan · January 2015

Nijjion wrote: »

Advantages with time and efficiency that doesn't change the end result is not P2W as stated before. As stated, a person with 2000 CP without a sub is even footing with someone with 2000 CP with a sub(or stuff from their aesthetic pay shop). The only difference is time it takes to get to that... and that isn't the definition of B2W... Why don't you make up a new term like B2GIF (Buy 2 get it faster?). Though in that definition you will need to make sure you state it's not something that gives you an advantage in battle but makes your time more efficient and quicker.

This kind of reasoning leads to funny results.
- Tempering alloy, Dreugh Wax, Rosin and Kuta in the cash shop? They don't give an unfair advantage since everyone can get them by harvesting materials. B2GIF!
- Start your character at level 50 with all quests and skyshards completed? It's not unfair either since anyone can do it in 50 hours. B2GIF!
- Unique undaunted shoulders/helmets in the cash shop? Of course it's fair because if you repeat the dungeons enough times, you'll be sure to get all of them. B2GIF!
- Sanctum Ophidia armors and Master's weapons in the shop? Baaah it's fine, you just need a few hours for the Veteran Arena anyway and Sanctum is not that hard. B2GIF!
- 10% boost to XP and Champion Points? Then 20% for extra cash? Then packages of 100 Champion Points? Haha don't worry, everyone can get it through normal gaming and the system provides diminishing returns, so it's not such an advantage. B2GIF!

[/sarcasm]

SFBryan18 · January 2015

If cutting time out of your grind gives you any kind of real advantage over another player, that other player must be terrible. Time does not equal skill.

shadowmilb14_ESO · January 2015

Here is my point.

Would +15% XP boost be P2W?
Would +100% XP boost be P2W?
Would +10,000% be P2W?
Would +Infinite% (IE. Free max level for premium members) be P2W?

Where do draw the line? The answer is >0% bonus. Anything else is purely subjective and rationalization.

BBSooner · January 2015

With the removal of the VR grind eventually I hope they give a toggle to remove the 10% bonus. I out level the 1-50 content already as it is.

Darkonflare15 · January 2015

I find most of these pay to win statements ridiculous since I can never win off any of these minor boosts just for subbing in the game. What do get is a little small benefit for subbing. It more pay for benefit not pay to win. People with get more cp points arguments are even more ridiculous since it is base off of diminish returns and you not getting super strong to win. It just there to give you the appearance of being stronger.

shadowmilb14_ESO · January 2015

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

I find most of these pay to win statements ridiculous sense I can never win off any of these minor boosts just for subbing in the game. What do get is a little small benefit for subbing. It more pay for benefit not pay to win. People with get more cp points arguments are even more ridiculous since it is base off of diminish returns and you not getting super strong to win. It just there to give you the appearance of being stronger.

At what % would you consider it P2W? Is someone with +10,000% on equal footing with someone without it?

technohic · January 2015

I'm confused. Am I supposed to be upset that they are going B2P and people can then pay to win at the cash shop, or that subscribing provides benefits better than just being B2P?

Has it been pay to win since I have subbed and gotten all the way to top VR levels as well up until this point while the B2P customers couldn't even log in? What do I win?

Rashishane · January 2015

EDIT: Moved to the official guide to ESO+ discussion.

Melian · January 2015

SFBryan18 wrote: »

If cutting time out of your grind gives you any kind of real advantage over another player, that other player must be terrible. Time does not equal skill.

On the contrary - if it doesn't, than the grind is pointless.

Darkonflare15 · January 2015

shadowmilb14_ESO wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

I find most of these pay to win statements ridiculous sense I can never win off any of these minor boosts just for subbing in the game. What do get is a little small benefit for subbing. It more pay for benefit not pay to win. People with get more cp points arguments are even more ridiculous since it is base off of diminish returns and you not getting super strong to win. It just there to give you the appearance of being stronger.

At what % would you consider it P2W? Is someone with +10,000% on equal footing with someone without it?

No, I consider pay to win is when somebody pays for an item that completely trumps people in combat or when it helps the person go through combat so easy that there is no point in playing the game to get the good items or get items in a cash shop that are suppose to be rare in the main game but you can buy it easier for convenience and not earn it. Thus pay 2 win since all I have to do is buy this item if I want do well against people in the game. Since there is no such thing as advantage that clearly gives me a superior advantage over other players in this system as of yet. There is no pay win since I am not wining over anything.

Nifty2g · January 2015

You guys realise whoever got the damn imperial edition when the game first came out you got rings of mara which was 10% xp gain back then, and it was stackable

IS THAT P2W? I still use my rings when leveling other accounts

daneyulebub17_ESO · January 2015

"Pay to Win" is a joke concept. It's whatever ZOS says it is, and that definition will change to suit them as they need to pump more money out of people. That's the way is has been in all F2P games, and there's no reason, other than naivete, to think it will be different here.