ESO+ 10% XP gain does not equal "pay to win"

VarilRau · January 2015

Now, the problem ain't that someone will reach the max level 1 day earlier than others. I foresee a possible problem that after few months those with +membership will have a huge advantage over newer people / non eso+ paid customers.

I will be going with the sub system in the future. BUT. Please take that xp boost away before it will break the game - or make it so that it only works untill lvl 50!

Hutuldur · January 2015

Pay to win = No way to win unless you pay. There are many of the games around and new ESO model isn't anything like that.

Giving small exp+gold is correct way to do the premium account. If you don't pay, play 10% more and you are equal to paying players. 10% is actually very small bonus. 20%-50% bonus is often seen in other games.

kongkim · January 2015

Giving some players better stats that make then win battles is P2W makeing people level faster is not as all will get to te same level at some point.

Nijjion · January 2015

rylixav wrote: »

So +10% XP isn't pay to win but, +10% health or damage would be? What?

You can make the exact same argument to defend +10% health or damage. "Well, good players will still beat bad players, so paying for extra damage isn't really pay to win." And that's why every single MMO that starts down the F2P road ends up selling pay to win eventually.

It's not the most stupidest argument i've ever seen but this is close.

Come on they aren't even close to the same thing.

Also as Xsorus says, some people really need to know the definition of what B2W actually is. Efficiency in play time is not B2W.

Try going into League of Legends with that mind set with the boosts to XP that it's B2W... i don't think I've ever seen that argument and if you did, you would be laughed at.

DDuke · January 2015

Nijjion wrote: »

rylixav wrote: »

So +10% XP isn't pay to win but, +10% health or damage would be? What?

You can make the exact same argument to defend +10% health or damage. "Well, good players will still beat bad players, so paying for extra damage isn't really pay to win." And that's why every single MMO that starts down the F2P road ends up selling pay to win eventually.

It's not the most stupidest argument i've ever seen but this is close.

Come on they aren't even close to the same thing.

Also as Xsorus says, some people really need to know the definition of what B2W actually is. Efficiency in play time is not B2W.

Try going into League of Legends with that mind set with the boosts to XP that it's B2W... i don't think I've ever seen that argument and if you did, you would be laughed at.

Except League of Legends is a MOBA, and they don't have open-ended vertical progression tied into XP (Champion Points).

If two players that were equal before aren't equal anymore because one of them spends $$$, that is P2W.

If you can't grasp that concept... well, what can I say

Nijjion · January 2015

People can get to the same rank though... that doesn't mean B2W.

They will both eventually get all 3600 points... it's not like the person paying the sub will get 3960 champ points and get 360 extra... if they did then however you can call it B2W.

It's quite common sense really, so back at you if I can't explain it any clearer.

Govalon · January 2015

Nijjion wrote: »

People can get to the same rank though... that doesn't mean B2W.

They will both eventually get all 3600 points... it's not like the person paying the sub will get 3960 champ points and get 360 extra... if they did then you can call B2W.

No, they won't get 3600 points. Neither of them. Ever. Getting one cp takes 1-4 hours, if you do the math you would know people will not reach that. And I am completely sure that they will expand those trees at some point because champion system is supposed to give endless progression. Endless means that you won't reach the cap. Ever.

Lied · January 2015

So am I misunderstanding something, or like... isn't +10% exp for subscribers sort of like saying in the future you'll have the option to stop paying a monthly fee for a 10% experience penalty?

Everyone that is currently ranting on these forums has subscription time and would be getting this permanent 10% experience "boost" if they just kept on doing what they've been doing since release?

I know I must be missing something... no really, what am I missing?

The_Man_From_Stygia · January 2015

Perhaps you should look at it this way. Those who don't pay are forfeiting their in game benefits for the ability to play for free or pay for only certain content. We all pay now, so if you choose not to pay in the future, you lose benefits.

Nijjion · January 2015

Govalon wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

People can get to the same rank though... that doesn't mean B2W.

They will both eventually get all 3600 points... it's not like the person paying the sub will get 3960 champ points and get 360 extra... if they did then you can call B2W.

No, they won't get 3600 points. Neither of them. Ever. Getting one cp takes 1-4 hours, if you do the math you would know people will not reach that. And I am completely sure that they will expand those trees at some point because champion system is supposed to give endless progression. Endless means that you won't reach the cap. Ever.

I know I was making a point not actually being realistic.

DDuke · January 2015

Nijjion wrote: »

Govalon wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

People can get to the same rank though... that doesn't mean B2W.

They will both eventually get all 3600 points... it's not like the person paying the sub will get 3960 champ points and get 360 extra... if they did then you can call B2W.

No, they won't get 3600 points. Neither of them. Ever. Getting one cp takes 1-4 hours, if you do the math you would know people will not reach that. And I am completely sure that they will expand those trees at some point because champion system is supposed to give endless progression. Endless means that you won't reach the cap. Ever.

I know I was making a point not actually being realistic.

You do understand that you are nullifying your own statement?

You can't tell people you're "making a point", then say it really has nothing backing it up since it isn't based on reality.

I would've picked the words "I was wrong" or "I didn't know that", but I guess those don't suit you.

Faulgor · January 2015

I somehow feel subscribe 2 win is very different from pay 2 win. There's a limit to S2W, you can't subscribe 10 times in one month and get 100% more gold and exp. You will not have to spend more than you do now to get the bonus, either.
So I really don't see this as an issue.

Enodoc · January 2015

Lied wrote: »

So am I misunderstanding something, or like... isn't +10% exp for subscribers sort of like saying in the future you'll have the option to stop paying a monthly fee for a 10% experience penalty?

Everyone that is currently ranting on these forums has subscription time and would be getting this permanent 10% experience "boost" if they just kept on doing what they've been doing since release?

I know I must be missing something... no really, what am I missing?

You're missing the fact that there is a difference between a boost and a penalty. Boosts are applied upwards, penalties are applied downwards. This is a boost: subscribing to ESO Plus gives you 110%, not subscribing gives you 100%. What we are all getting now, as subscribers, is 100%, so this is 10% more if we continue.

The_Man_From_Stygia wrote: »

Perhaps you should look at it this way. Those who don't pay are forfeiting their in game benefits for the ability to play for free or pay for only certain content. We all pay now, so if you choose not to pay in the future, you lose benefits.

That is a very good way of putting it. Have a +1

Lied · January 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

Lied wrote: »

So am I misunderstanding something, or like... isn't +10% exp for subscribers sort of like saying in the future you'll have the option to stop paying a monthly fee for a 10% experience penalty?

Everyone that is currently ranting on these forums has subscription time and would be getting this permanent 10% experience "boost" if they just kept on doing what they've been doing since release?

I know I must be missing something... no really, what am I missing?

You're missing the fact that there is a difference between a boost and a penalty. Boosts are applied upwards, penalties are applied downwards. This is a boost: subscribing to ESO Plus gives you 110%, not subscribing gives you 100%. What we are all getting now, as subscribers, is 100%, so this is 10% more if we continue.

So the difference between a subscription boost and a unsubscribed penalty is... if you keep paying like you always have you will now level 10% faster, while anyone who no longer pays will level at the old rate (10% less)?

Let me ask you this, would you be angry if they offered a free trial of the game where the game was completely free to play up to a certain point?

Muizer · January 2015

This discussion is going nowhere. Definitions never win arguments. Facts are this model introduces ways of getting ahead in the game in exchange for extra money (instead of in-game progress). Call it what you will. Qualify the amounts involved as you will. What matters is it's a new precedent. From now on we know for certain this is something ZoS consider sell-able.

DDuke · January 2015

Faulgor wrote: »

I somehow feel subscribe 2 win is very different from pay 2 win. There's a limit to S2W, you can't subscribe 10 times in one month and get 100% more gold and exp. You will not have to spend more than you do now to get the bonus, either.
So I really don't see this as an issue.

Now, that's a statement I can get behind.

But if these kind of "boosts" are tolerated, how long you think it'll take for them to start selling "XP Boosters" & other bs in the Cash Shop?

I've seen it happen so so many times, I'm tired of being optimistic

Big companies don't care about their consumers or ethics, all they care about is $$$, and what better way to get more $$$ than incentivizing the cash shop is there?

This is all because people tolerate this kind of behaviour. People tolerate companies screwing them over & some even thank them for that.

Makes me sick.

Zoltariel · January 2015

10% XP really isn't all that much. I don't see an issue with this added little bonus. I'd rather see a paying player get 10% XP than all the other F2P models that could have happened here.

You know those F2P models where you have to pay to chat, pay for bank, pay for auctions, pay for zones.

So, yes. I am 100% fine with 10% XP bonus.

DDuke · January 2015

Laughter wrote: »

10% XP really isn't all that much. I don't see an issue with this added little bonus. I'd rather see a paying player get 10% XP than all the other F2P models that could have happened here.

You know those F2P models where you have to pay to chat, pay for bank, pay for auctions, pay for zones.

So, yes. I am 100% fine with 10% XP bonus.

Will you be fine with XP booster potions on top of that, once they realize the naive people apparently like getting "boosters", or don't care?

Enodoc · January 2015

Lied wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Lied wrote: »

So am I misunderstanding something, or like... isn't +10% exp for subscribers sort of like saying in the future you'll have the option to stop paying a monthly fee for a 10% experience penalty?

Everyone that is currently ranting on these forums has subscription time and would be getting this permanent 10% experience "boost" if they just kept on doing what they've been doing since release?

I know I must be missing something... no really, what am I missing?

You're missing the fact that there is a difference between a boost and a penalty. Boosts are applied upwards, penalties are applied downwards. This is a boost: subscribing to ESO Plus gives you 110%, not subscribing gives you 100%. What we are all getting now, as subscribers, is 100%, so this is 10% more if we continue.

So the difference between a subscription boost and a unsubscribed penalty is... if you keep paying like you always have you will now level 10% faster, while anyone who no longer pays will level at the old rate (10% less)?

Let me ask you this, would you be angry if they offered a free trial of the game where the game was completely free to play up to a certain point?

OK it's quite semantic if you put it like that (it's 9.09% less), but yes. That's the difference. It's important, as it's not giving anyone less XP than what the current system offers.
The alternative (which other MMOs with a similar system have done) is to reduce the standard XP gain, so subscribers get XP at 100% while non-subscribers get XP at 90.909%.

I don't see how a free trial up to a certain point is relevant to the discussion on XP.

Darkonflare15 · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I somehow feel subscribe 2 win is very different from pay 2 win. There's a limit to S2W, you can't subscribe 10 times in one month and get 100% more gold and exp. You will not have to spend more than you do now to get the bonus, either.
So I really don't see this as an issue.

Now, that's a statement I can get behind.

But if these kind of "boosts" are tolerated, how long you think it'll take for them to start selling "XP Boosters" & other bs in the Cash Shop?

I've seen it happen so so many times, I'm tired of being optimistic
Big companies don't care about their consumers or ethics, all they care about is $$$, and what better way to get more $$$ than incentivizing the cash shop is there?

This is all because people tolerate this kind of behaviour. People tolerate companies screwing them over & some even thank them for that.

Makes me sick.

Well subscribers are not loyal just as companies are not loyal. So when one screws the other the actually loyal people are screwed. Just a fact of life.

Zoltariel · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Laughter wrote: »

10% XP really isn't all that much. I don't see an issue with this added little bonus. I'd rather see a paying player get 10% XP than all the other F2P models that could have happened here.

You know those F2P models where you have to pay to chat, pay for bank, pay for auctions, pay for zones.

So, yes. I am 100% fine with 10% XP bonus.

Will you be fine with XP booster potions on top of that, once they realize the naive people apparently like getting "boosters", or don't care?

I'll be honest. I don't care about XP potion boosts or boosters in general. Everyone plays at different speeds and i'd rather see these types of things on the cash shop. If it helps you level I find this to be okay.

I think I will draw my line at actual armor upgrades and potions to stats to make you attack/heal/health increase. I don't think XP makes you better than another player. Stats? Yes.

Lied · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Laughter wrote: »

10% XP really isn't all that much. I don't see an issue with this added little bonus. I'd rather see a paying player get 10% XP than all the other F2P models that could have happened here.

You know those F2P models where you have to pay to chat, pay for bank, pay for auctions, pay for zones.

So, yes. I am 100% fine with 10% XP bonus.

Will you be fine with XP booster potions on top of that, once they realize the naive people apparently like getting "boosters", or don't care?

Does it matter at this point? When you're complaining some things that haven't even happened yet, and some things that aren't even announced, what can you possibly hope to get from ranting about it at this point? A full apology from ZOS and scrapped plans for B2P? So say you did get that, why would you suddenly feel less paranoid about P2W? "They could change their mind you know, they've done it before."

Unless of course there is nothing constructive underneath this post and it's simply an effort to make other people as unhappy as you are. If so, bravo, and carry on.

Nijjion · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

Govalon wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

People can get to the same rank though... that doesn't mean B2W.

They will both eventually get all 3600 points... it's not like the person paying the sub will get 3960 champ points and get 360 extra... if they did then you can call B2W.

No, they won't get 3600 points. Neither of them. Ever. Getting one cp takes 1-4 hours, if you do the math you would know people will not reach that. And I am completely sure that they will expand those trees at some point because champion system is supposed to give endless progression. Endless means that you won't reach the cap. Ever.

I know I was making a point not actually being realistic.

You do understand that you are nullifying your own statement?

You can't tell people you're "making a point", then say it really has nothing backing it up since it isn't based on reality.

I would've picked the words "I was wrong" or "I didn't know that", but I guess those don't suit you.

Well if someone played forever it would be realistic as they would reach the cap... don't be so dumb or avoiding the obvious.

Obviously we won't be playing this game for a long time to reach the cap but if someone did they would EVENTUALLY hit the cap.

And not sure why I would say I was wrong as I think I am actually 100% correct. You can reach the cap just matters on how long it takes... There is nothing wrong with that statement.

Edit - highlighted to make points clear as it seems common sense as evaded you.

Zoltariel · January 2015

If it helps I fully believe the game will be fine. I have had hands on experience with quite a few fair F2P games. If I had a worry that ESO would go into a pay to win model I wouldn't be here. Nothing about their model so far has red flagged me.

I think it's silly to freak yourself out and assume the worse.

DDuke · January 2015

Nijjion wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

Govalon wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

People can get to the same rank though... that doesn't mean B2W.

They will both eventually get all 3600 points... it's not like the person paying the sub will get 3960 champ points and get 360 extra... if they did then you can call B2W.

No, they won't get 3600 points. Neither of them. Ever. Getting one cp takes 1-4 hours, if you do the math you would know people will not reach that. And I am completely sure that they will expand those trees at some point because champion system is supposed to give endless progression. Endless means that you won't reach the cap. Ever.

I know I was making a point not actually being realistic.

You do understand that you are nullifying your own statement?

You can't tell people you're "making a point", then say it really has nothing backing it up since it isn't based on reality.

I would've picked the words "I was wrong" or "I didn't know that", but I guess those don't suit you.

Well if someone played forever it would be realistic as they would reach the cap... don't be so dumb or avoiding the obvious.

Obviously we won't be playing this game for a long time to reach the cap but if someone did they would EVENTUALLY hit the cap.

And not sure why I would say I was wrong as I think I am actually 100% correct. You can reach the cap just matters on how long it takes... There is nothing wrong with that statement.

Edit - highlighted to make points clear as it seems common sense as evaded you.

But of course you are right, how could you not be? You are obviously one of the "chosen ones" that are never wrong. The internet is full of you people.

Saying you will "eventually" reach the cap if you play a lot is just guesswork at the moment.
I could say I will get a space ship one day, but there's a reasonable chance it will not happen.

What if they keep adding more Champion Points faster than your human body permits you to grind them?

Also, you should probably be aware by now that majority of players will most likely never even reach 2000 points.

Lastly, does it really matter, if one reaches the CP cap 2 years from now? That person will have exactly 10% more points for those 2 years than someone who didn't spend $$$. Once they add more CPs, the cycle begins anew.

Advantages for $$$ that affect you character's power compared to others in equal situation=P2W

DDuke · January 2015

Lied wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Laughter wrote: »

10% XP really isn't all that much. I don't see an issue with this added little bonus. I'd rather see a paying player get 10% XP than all the other F2P models that could have happened here.

You know those F2P models where you have to pay to chat, pay for bank, pay for auctions, pay for zones.

So, yes. I am 100% fine with 10% XP bonus.

Will you be fine with XP booster potions on top of that, once they realize the naive people apparently like getting "boosters", or don't care?

Does it matter at this point? When you're complaining some things that haven't even happened yet, and some things that aren't even announced, what can you possibly hope to get from ranting about it at this point? A full apology from ZOS and scrapped plans for B2P? So say you did get that, why would you suddenly feel less paranoid about P2W? "They could change their mind you know, they've done it before."

Unless of course there is nothing constructive underneath this post and it's simply an effort to make other people as unhappy as you are. If so, bravo, and carry on.

What I'm trying to say is that this whole B2P fiasco has happened because naive people still tolerate it.

They will keep adding more & more to the cash shop (and make it more incentivizing), as long as people like you keep defending them & showing them green light to milk more money out of you.

Lied · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Lied wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Laughter wrote: »

10% XP really isn't all that much. I don't see an issue with this added little bonus. I'd rather see a paying player get 10% XP than all the other F2P models that could have happened here.

You know those F2P models where you have to pay to chat, pay for bank, pay for auctions, pay for zones.

So, yes. I am 100% fine with 10% XP bonus.

Will you be fine with XP booster potions on top of that, once they realize the naive people apparently like getting "boosters", or don't care?

Does it matter at this point? When you're complaining some things that haven't even happened yet, and some things that aren't even announced, what can you possibly hope to get from ranting about it at this point? A full apology from ZOS and scrapped plans for B2P? So say you did get that, why would you suddenly feel less paranoid about P2W? "They could change their mind you know, they've done it before."

Unless of course there is nothing constructive underneath this post and it's simply an effort to make other people as unhappy as you are. If so, bravo, and carry on.

What I'm trying to say is that this whole B2P fiasco has happened because naive people still tolerate it.

They will keep adding more & more to the cash shop (and make it more incentivizing), as long as people like you keep defending them & showing them green light to milk more money out of you.

Really? You think they're inspired by my posts regarding the futility of spreading dissention? I figured they'd be much more interested in how much money I did or didn't spend on their game.

eserras7b16_ESO · January 2015

It's NOT pay to win. 10% more CP when CP has diminishing returns doesn't make a player 10% stronger that the other, more like a 2,5% and that's before reaching the cap because there, they'll be equal again. Either trolls or complete idiots in this thread.
Plus this game is all about skills, and any good player knows that. Go troll somewhere else.

Xsorus · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

Govalon wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

People can get to the same rank though... that doesn't mean B2W.

They will both eventually get all 3600 points... it's not like the person paying the sub will get 3960 champ points and get 360 extra... if they did then you can call B2W.

No, they won't get 3600 points. Neither of them. Ever. Getting one cp takes 1-4 hours, if you do the math you would know people will not reach that. And I am completely sure that they will expand those trees at some point because champion system is supposed to give endless progression. Endless means that you won't reach the cap. Ever.

I know I was making a point not actually being realistic.

You do understand that you are nullifying your own statement?

You can't tell people you're "making a point", then say it really has nothing backing it up since it isn't based on reality.

I would've picked the words "I was wrong" or "I didn't know that", but I guess those don't suit you.

Well if someone played forever it would be realistic as they would reach the cap... don't be so dumb or avoiding the obvious.

Obviously we won't be playing this game for a long time to reach the cap but if someone did they would EVENTUALLY hit the cap.

And not sure why I would say I was wrong as I think I am actually 100% correct. You can reach the cap just matters on how long it takes... There is nothing wrong with that statement.

Edit - highlighted to make points clear as it seems common sense as evaded you.

But of course you are right, how could you not be? You are obviously one of the "chosen ones" that are never wrong. The internet is full of you people.

Saying you will "eventually" reach the cap if you play a lot is just guesswork at the moment.
I could say I will get a space ship one day, but there's a reasonable chance it will not happen.

What if they keep adding more Champion Points faster than your human body permits you to grind them?

Also, you should probably be aware by now that majority of players will most likely never even reach 2000 points.

Lastly, does it really matter, if one reaches the CP cap 2 years from now? That person will have exactly 10% more points for those 2 years than someone who didn't spend $$$. Once they add more CPs, the cycle begins anew.

Advantages for $$$ that affect you character's power compared to others in equal situation=P2W

So wait, let me see if I understand this..You're calling his hypothetical *** because it'll take 2 years or whatever to reach 3600 cap...when you're relying on a hypothetical for your insane point. Your point hinges entirely on 2 people with the exact same skill level, killing the exact same mobs, doing the exact same thing and playing the exact same amount over whatever time period it is for the person with the 10% bonus to hit the cap...and calling it pay to win because the person with the 10% bonus will hit the cap before the person without it.

/facepalm

felinith66 · January 2015

So, if I fight against someone who is a subscriber when I am not, I'll never win? His 10% advantage will always make him the better fighter regardless of skill? Is that what people mean when they say the xp bonus is P2W?