For comparison: What are the current non-F2P MMOs?

daneyulebub17_ESO · January 2015

Strictly for informational purposes, of course.
Not simply to get list of alternatives for those looking for a new MMO. No sirree!

So, what ARE the other truly non-F2P (no cash shop!) games? There's Eve and Wow, of course. Oh, and Wildstar--for now at least. Any others? Any upcoming?

ers101284b14_ESO · January 2015

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Strictly for informational purposes, of course.
Not simply to get list of alternatives for those looking for a new MMO. No sirree!

So, what ARE the other truly non-F2P (no cash shop!) games? There's Eve and Wow, of course. Oh, and Wildstar--for now at least. Any others? Any upcoming?

FFXI and FFXIV. But they do have cash shops. But are still 100% sub based. Might go back to FFXIV but I was so disappointed that I doubt it.

Volto · January 2015

FFXIV which is where I'll be headed.

daneyulebub17_ESO · January 2015

This is really a dismal scene for MMOs then. The only non-f2p ones are Wow, Wildstar, FFXI (with store) and EVE? Death of a genre.

asteldian · January 2015

Yeah, I may hit up FFXIV again. Lol, at this rate I will have to turn to Brad Mcquaid and his budget game in the making.

starkerealm · January 2015

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

This is really a dismal scene for MMOs then. The only non-f2p ones are Wow, Wildstar, FFXI (with store) and EVE? Death of a genre.

Those are the Box n' Sub.

The Buy to Play list is... I think, Secret World, Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, and (after March) ESO.

Neizir · January 2015

FFXIV, Wildstar (Which may be going F2P as well), WoW, EVE and the upcoming Camelot Unchained. That's it, really.

Imo, P2P is on the way out. It's a great model but frankly B2P is just better. Not to mention there's also an optional subscription which will basically change nothing when ESO goes B2P.

tpanisiakb16_ESO · January 2015

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

This is really a dismal scene for MMOs then. The only non-f2p ones are Wow, Wildstar, FFXI (with store) and EVE? Death of a genre.

As far as Wildstar is concerned you can buy your subscription with in-game money. Still sub-based, but it's worth noting that.

Having played Wildstar (and mostly liked it) I was VERY surprised it crashed and burned out of the gates but still maintains a sub.

Neizir wrote: »

WoW, Wildstar (Which may be going F2P as well), WoW, EVE and the upcoming Camelot Unchained. That's it, really.

Imo, P2P is on the way out. It's a great model but frankly B2P is just better. Not to mention there's also an optional subscription which will basically change nothing when ESO goes B2P.

So far anyway. There is still the worry about being subtly encouraged to spend up and above what your sub is getting you. That's my ultimate concern at this point.

Sarru · January 2015

Neizir wrote: »

Imo, P2P is on the way out

Tell it to Blizzard...

starkerealm · January 2015

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

This is really a dismal scene for MMOs then. The only non-f2p ones are Wow, Wildstar, FFXI (with store) and EVE? Death of a genre.

As far as Wildstar is concerned you can buy your subscription with in-game money. Still sub-based, but it's worth noting that.

Having played Wildstar (and mostly liked it) I was VERY surprised it crashed and burned out of the gates but still maintains a sub.

Having not played it... I suspect it was two things.

One, launching a box 'n sub game these days is almost suicide. No one will buy it, because, "lol, I waytz fer F2P!" and you have to do a lot to justify $15 a month against something like Star Trek Online, Conan, or any of the other high profile F2Ps that don't screw the players over something fierce out of the gate.

Second, letting you pay for your sub with in game currency is probably a bit of a managed risk for them. It lets them keep players in the game, and keeping the servers looking populated (which is vital for ensuring an MMO's long term survival), while keeping the in game economy's inflation under control... or they could just be emulating EVE, I don't know.

starkerealm · January 2015

Sarru wrote: »

Neizir wrote: »

Imo, P2P is on the way out

Tell it to Blizzard...

Blizzard got the message. Hearthstone launched F2P. WoW is an aberration, and they know it. They also know they can't do it again.

Brittany_Joy · January 2015

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

As far as Wildstar is concerned you can buy your subscription with in-game money. Still sub-based, but it's worth noting that.

Having played Wildstar (and mostly liked it) I was VERY surprised it crashed and burned out of the gates but still maintains a sub.

I played Wildstar too and liked it. I am surprised that it burned out too! All I see on their forums is complaints about dead servers and they dont even have that many servers. The main problem I see about it crashing was the fact that the developers didn't care for laptop players because there was problems with AMD and laptop stuff that caused major FPS lags. All they said was "Well you shouldn't own a laptop or play on a laptop''. That is complete BS! I liked the game but couldn't play it because of FPS lags and the developers didnt care 'cause I am a dirty laptop user.

tpanisiakb16_ESO · January 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

This is really a dismal scene for MMOs then. The only non-f2p ones are Wow, Wildstar, FFXI (with store) and EVE? Death of a genre.

As far as Wildstar is concerned you can buy your subscription with in-game money. Still sub-based, but it's worth noting that.

Having played Wildstar (and mostly liked it) I was VERY surprised it crashed and burned out of the gates but still maintains a sub.

Having not played it... I suspect it was two things.

One, launching a box 'n sub game these days is almost suicide. No one will buy it, because, "lol, I waytz fer F2P!" and you have to do a lot to justify $15 a month against something like Star Trek Online, Conan, or any of the other high profile F2Ps that don't screw the players over something fierce out of the gate.

Second, letting you pay for your sub with in game currency is probably a bit of a managed risk for them. It lets them keep players in the game, and keeping the servers looking populated (which is vital for ensuring an MMO's long term survival), while keeping the in game economy's inflation under control... or they could just be emulating EVE, I don't know.

Maybe! I am of the reasoning that Carbine really didn't know it's demographic. Hey, trust me, when Wildstar was announced and despite the ***-hum storyline I didn't much care about, or the art-style I was interested because it promoted that old-school vanilla and BC WoW that I spent so much time playing and getting through content.

So there I was getting to do tough raids again. Thing is I'm not young anymore and neither are my friends. We didn't have kids or responsible obligations back then. For the sake of health and other reasons it's not desirable to sit there for 9 hours wiping over and over to RNG mechanics.

As the game went on people plainly just realized that it's too exclusionary for their grown-up tastes. The problem is Carbine created a game that catered only to those types and while had more "casual" things to do it wasn't enough. There's only so many times you construct your home, wreck it and rebuilt if before you wonder, "WTF is the point of all of this?"

Wildstar had an amazing start. Despite launch issues there was a huge population, servers were full to bursting and new ones needed to be put up. But month to month people left in droves. It's a husk of what it was at launch and technically there's nothing particularly wrong about the game, I just think people had that weird epiphany above. "What am I getting out of this except risk of DVT?"

McDoogs · January 2015

Wildstar will hit B2P eventually, and probably sooner than later. You really need a rabidly loyal fanbase and low operating expenses (including loan payments from the hundreds of millions you borrowed to develop it in the first place) to sustain a subscription.

Wow got so huge so fast that it is still coasting on it's inertia (even though subs are declining it's still much bigger than any of these new themeparks), and EVE has a relatively small butextremely loyal and stable base, coupled with I'd assume low operating costs. No way a new AAA MMO is ever going to be developed without a 6-12 month plan to go to B2P or F2P again.

daneyulebub17_ESO · January 2015

Neizir wrote: »

...but frankly B2P is just better. Not to mention there's also an optional subscription which will basically change nothing when ESO goes B2P.

From my experience (with Lotro) even with hybrid model of maintaining "vip" subs, the game will still suffer, badly, once the cash store starts driving the development and aesthetics of the game. And from what I've heard in other games, it always does.

Antiquity · January 2015

I hate how pigeon-holed in to your role you are in FFXIV though. I played up in to second coil (WAR), and every big boss battle and primal is nothing more than a ballroom dance to memorize, too. Cluster behind Titan, move left as a group for splumes, tank swap at three stacks, memorize the bomb phases. Buff at exactly the same time for every Mountain Buster that always happens at the exact same time. Move exactly the same way every time, one fault in muscle memory by one party member and you have to start all over. That's not fun, thats a series of memorization tasks.

daneyulebub17_ESO · January 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

...
One, launching a box 'n sub game these days is almost suicide. No one will buy it, because, "lol, I waytz fer F2P!" and you have to do a lot to justify $15 a month against something like Star Trek Online, Conan, or any of the other high profile F2Ps that don't screw the players over something fierce out of the gate.

I wish someone would come up with a quality $50.00 a month MMO, that they certified would NEVER go F2P. I'd jump on it in a heartbeat.

knightblaster · January 2015

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

This is really a dismal scene for MMOs then. The only non-f2p ones are Wow, Wildstar, FFXI (with store) and EVE? Death of a genre.

EVE and Wildstar also both sell tokens for real world money that the player can then sell in-game to other players for in-game money. So there's an RMT element in both of them.

Really it's only WoW and FFXI/XIV. Basically it's this: get the fanbase of Blizz or FF or GTFO.

THEburnb16_ESO · January 2015

Wildstars model is atually worse than the upcoming TESO model. With CREDD you can swap real money for ingame currency. And it´s basically b2p as well

jnjdun_ESO · January 2015

Don’t forget good old Dark Age of Camelot. Still $14.99 a month and apparently still going strong according to my friends that won't leave and come play with me here.

QQ I'm so ronery.

daneyulebub17_ESO · January 2015

jnjdun_ESO wrote: »

Don’t forget good old Dark Age of Camelot. Still $14.99 a month and apparently still going strong according to my friends that won't leave and come play with me here.

QQ I'm so ronery.

Just don't know if I could deal with such a dated game, graphically speaking. Though it is tempting...

McDoogs · January 2015

Darkfall: Unholy Wars is sub based still too. It's a pretty crappy indie game, but it does have a subscription. I think Mortal Online is too, but not certain.

jnjdun_ESO · January 2015

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

jnjdun_ESO wrote: »

Don’t forget good old Dark Age of Camelot. Still $14.99 a month and apparently still going strong according to my friends that won't leave and come play with me here.

QQ I'm so ronery.

Just don't know if I could deal with such a dated game, graphically speaking. Though it is tempting...

I hear you. Not only are the graphics dated, but the UI and general combat would be hard to get used to again. The long a$$ CCs and hard interrupts, in my opinion, are so old skool.

I've gotten so used to being mobile and moving constantly during combat that I don’t think I could even enjoy my scout at all anymore.

knightblaster · January 2015

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

Maybe! I am of the reasoning that Carbine really didn't know it's demographic. Hey, trust me, when Wildstar was announced and despite the ***-hum storyline I didn't much care about, or the art-style I was interested because it promoted that old-school vanilla and BC WoW that I spent so much time playing and getting through content.

So there I was getting to do tough raids again. Thing is I'm not young anymore and neither are my friends. We didn't have kids or responsible obligations back then. For the sake of health and other reasons it's not desirable to sit there for 9 hours wiping over and over to RNG mechanics.

As the game went on people plainly just realized that it's too exclusionary for their grown-up tastes. The problem is Carbine created a game that catered only to those types and while had more "casual" things to do it wasn't enough. There's only so many times you construct your home, wreck it and rebuilt if before you wonder, "WTF is the point of all of this?"

Wildstar had an amazing start. Despite launch issues there was a huge population, servers were full to bursting and new ones needed to be put up. But month to month people left in droves. It's a husk of what it was at launch and technically there's nothing particularly wrong about the game, I just think people had that weird epiphany above. "What am I getting out of this except risk of DVT?"

Exactly what happened.

They made a game that the people who were playing WoW in 2004-2006 were happy to play *then*, and had nostalgic memories about. The mistake they made was assuming that these people wanted to play that game *now* -- obviously not many were (and this may have surprised many of the players themselves, who thought they wanted a vanilla/BC type of experience more than it turned out that they actually did today). As for younger/newer players, who never played that type of game (probably because they only started with MMOs in 2008-2009 or later), the game was unattractive due to those elements. And Carbine ended up getting festooned between these two segments -- one that the game wasn't designed for, and the other that it *was* designed for, but which turned out to realize (in many cases) that they were no longer up for that kind of game, after all.

As a result, it ended up being a fairly well made game that very few people who are gamers today wanted to play.

nanaya · January 2015

(no cash shop!) games? There's Eve and Wow

What?

Sindala · January 2015

Games that still operate a Subscription model only, EVE, WOW, Istaria, UO ect.
Now these aren't the most recent of games but therein is the point. These games are all over 10 years old and still going. Those that slip into P2W cashshop models are the ones that fail and nobody remembers.

Zenimax has made a huge mistake with this decision, one that I feel will have repercussions on all future projects.

ZOS_ShannonM · January 2015

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