Viewable Bid History for kiosks defeats the purpose of a blind bid system. How is this best solved?

Anslay · January 2015

Presently, the bid history on a trading kiosk is viewable to the entire guild. Particularly in larger trading guilds, this defeats the intent of a blind bid system by encouraging it to turn into a 'spy on bid' system and rewarding those with the best spy networks. This creates a large amount of undue stress on those that are responsible for running some of our largest in-game organizations. How do you propose we best solve this issue? I understand the desire for accountability, but it should be in a fashion that doesn't encourage spying to be part of the weekly bidding equation.

redspecter23 · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

At this point I'd settle for any of the 4 options but I selected the second. It's meant to be a blind bid. Let's make it that way. Transparency is good, but the security of the kiosk bid trumps that.

timidobserver · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

It might be easier in terms of programming to just add a delay. Have the item to show up in the guild history a few hours after bidding closes.

Focus23 · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

I'd settle for any of these options just as long as something is done about it.

ZOS is already aware of us, but I'd like to bring it to the attention of the playerbase that we've organized a guild of 50+ trade guild leaders known as Direnni Dynasty. This guild of guilds has essentially been coordinating to defeat this broken bidding system.

It puts a huge strain on players, especially guild leadership. Trade guilds depend on their kiosk to attract and retain membership. Trying to guess how much gold is needed to secure the kiosk is daunting, so people resort to spying. When a bid is lost, members get upset because they can't sell that week, so they abandon the guild in mass numbers. It's almost impossible to get new recruits to stay without a kiosk.

Dozens of bidders are waking up before 7am EST every Monday morning to place last minute bids in order to deter spying, and to rush for open kiosks if their bid is lost. By working together, some guilds have established themselves in favored spots and manage to maintain a degree of stability, but this is very tenuous and we never know if someone will drop an unreasonably high bid one week just to push us out or to move up into a better spot.

Every week, trade guilds fold from failure to maintain a good location, and the leadership often leaves the game rather than rebuilding. Growing a small trade guild or starting up a new one is nearly impossible.

None of us enjoy the stress and anxiety caused by this bidding system. A trade guild that you spent months building up and maintaining can effectively be dissolved in a matter of weeks.

We aren't just risking to lose a kiosk bid, we are risking to lose our entire guilds.

ZOS, you are destroying your trade guild communities.
We implore you to consider these solutions.

hiyde · January 2015

Only Hired amount is viewable to all guild members

Bid History should not be viewable by the entire guild.

I do firmly believe, though, that the purchase price, after the fact, should be public info to all guild members. If people are contributing money towards purchasing a Kiosk, they should know how much was spent and shouldn't have to take anyone's word for it.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

hiyde wrote: »

Bid History should not be viewable by the entire guild.

I do firmly believe, though, that the purchase price, after the fact, should be public info to all guild members. If people are contributing money towards purchasing a Kiosk, they should know how much was spent and shouldn't have to take anyone's word for it.

At first I didn't want anything being seen ever but you have a point, I want to have proof in case I was accused of being dishonest.

ashlee17 · January 2015

Only Hired amount is viewable to all guild members

Changing the design of the current guild trader bidding system would be a great start for bringing more security to guilds. I vote to show hired amont only. If you think that we need more guild management tools like this one please take a few minutes to read this thread and comment on it.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/145742/help-we-need-more-guild-management-tools#latest

Thanks for your time and consideration.

Slurg · January 2015

Only Hired amount is viewable to all guild members

I'm a big fan of openness and transparency in all things but since this particular one is a big headache for guild leaders, I would support guild members not being able to see what happened (either hired amount or bid amount refunded due to losing) until AFTER the bidding is completed for the week.

If this poll is from the same Anslay that I think it is- I want to publicly say thank you for all you do - including being online to secure the kiosk bid at terrible hours - to keep our guild store profitable!

ZOS_GaryA · January 2015

Hey there folks,

Just wanted to let everyone know that this is on the radar and a fix is coming in a future patch. We don't have the details just yet, but we'd love to hear additional feedback once the solution goes live. Thanks for the additional suggestions in this thread!

redspecter23 · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Hey there folks,

Just wanted to let everyone know that this is on the radar and a fix is coming in a future patch. We don't have the details just yet, but we'd love to hear additional feedback once the solution goes live. Thanks for the additional suggestions in this thread!

Please tell me it's 1.6. This has been a known issue "on the radar" since... September I think. Can we push this up the priority ladder please. As a trade guild GM, I can tell you this is causing extreme amounts of stress and extra legwork on a weekly basis. I'm not the only one this has a negative effect on. I'm one of many that gets up at 6:30am every Monday to place a last second bid that would not be necessary if the bid history were removed. You give us a week to bid but only the last 10 seconds mean anything at all.

EQBallzz · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

I think what this really shows is the underlying issues with this guild trader system. It really needs to be overhauled into something better. This attempt at having a watered down auction house is not working. I'm not saying they absolutely need to add an auction house but they need a more inclusive system rather than this silly exclusive one that pits guilds in this weekly "do or die" battle for guild traders. I don't think that is a healthy system for any sort of longevity and is only creating a Wal-Mart style system that pushes out the little guy.

Anslay · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Hey there folks,

Just wanted to let everyone know that this is on the radar and a fix is coming in a future patch. We don't have the details just yet, but we'd love to hear additional feedback once the solution goes live. Thanks for the additional suggestions in this thread!

We've endured the consequences of this design challenge for an extended period with no concrete commitment (even still.. ).

Please keep in mind that we are the very people (your large community leaders) that continuously promote the game from within and thus contribute meaningfully to subscriber retention, so it would be vastly appreciated if a little time could be spared with greater urgency to resolve this. Anything you can do to get this across the goal line is greatly appreciated. Thank you, kindly.

Deome · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Hey there folks,

Just wanted to let everyone know that this is on the radar and a fix is coming in a future patch. We don't have the details just yet, but we'd love to hear additional feedback once the solution goes live. Thanks for the additional suggestions in this thread!

Thanks, I look forward to it.

Also, spies are only a problem for guilds that insist on keeping the same kiosk every week. Until the fix is implemented, the wiser solution might be to move around. As others have said, losing a kiosk one week isn't an unbearable loss--take a chance, and move around once in a while. Planting a flag in the sand and saying "No one else can have this, ever!" only makes everyone else think, "What a jerk! Someone should take their kiosk..."

Guilds that move around more than once in six months might upset whoever they unseat, for one week, but they don't garner envy and resentment the way stubborn guilds do. And most players, when they see a new guild in a long established kiosk, will immediately check that store for new and different opportunities. Personally, I don't bother with most of the "fixed" kiosks because their prices and wares pretty much reflect every other kiosk in that location.

No one eats at Burger King because they can't find a McDonald's.

Fissh · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is never viewable in the logs

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Hey there folks,

Just wanted to let everyone know that this is on the radar and a fix is coming in a future patch. We don't have the details just yet, but we'd love to hear additional feedback once the solution goes live. Thanks for the additional suggestions in this thread!

Though I want to be behind this acknowledgement, they have known and done nothing about it since 1.3. "On the radar" for that long has been a horrible thing for us GMs. Remove the tab completely with a hot fix until you figure out a true "solution". Immediate attention to the already overly consuming kiosks war for GMs would be a best practice. Week after week tactics have to be deployed for security, and it is taxing your GMs to death. GMs are part of the heart of the system, we bring people together and manage for the sake of alllll content you provide. Pay some attention to us, we matter.

olemanwinter · January 2015

I looked for an option that said, "the bid amount showing to guild members is the LEAST of the problems with the trader system", but couldn't find it.

Deome wrote: »

Planting a flag in the sand and saying "No one else can have this, ever!" only makes everyone else think, "What a jerk! Someone should take their kiosk..."

I think that comment and the ones that follow it don't reflect "MOST" players as you claim they do.

There is no saying"No one else can have this, ever!" You either still have the kiosk or you don't. The inherent message is a product of your own mind. You are projecting.

And recognizing that, I don't go out of my way to try to get a trader just because someone else has had it. If I didn't already want the trader, why would I want it just because you have it???

But maybe I'm just a well rounded sane person.

Anyway, if your goods are reasonably priced and you hold a wide variety, then people will seek you out for repeat visits. This is more difficult the more you move.

It's natural to want to be in the same place if your guild store is healthy.

Just like real life, the only businesses that move constantly are the ones that are dishonest or failing!

Deome wrote: »

No one eats at Burger King because they can't find a McDonald's.

Actually yes they do. When you are traveling down the interstate you don't drive around in circle in an unknown town looking for a McDonalds when a Burger King was at the exit.

And in your own town, if it's a decent sized city, you chose your dinner spot based on the selections nearby.

Sure you might prefer Ruby Tuesdays and go there occasionally, but if Chili's, Applebee's, and Texas Roadhouse are all 30 minutes closer, you are more likely to select them.

And finally, and most importantly, the analogy doesn't hold, because unlike in real life where you can use your smart phone, or 411, or the yellow pages to find McDonalds while you pass by Burger King, when a trader moves a customer cannot find it unless they stumble across it or search it out methodically.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

EQBallzz wrote: »

I think what this really shows is the underlying issues with this guild trader system. It really needs to be overhauled into something better. This attempt at having a watered down auction house is not working. I'm not saying they absolutely need to add an auction house but they need a more inclusive system rather than this silly exclusive one that pits guilds in this weekly "do or die" battle for guild traders. I don't think that is a healthy system for any sort of longevity and is only creating a Wal-Mart style system that pushes out the little guy.

I disagree totally the system is pretty cool as it is, some tweaks here and there would make it better but it's really fun, just don't show my bid to 450 strangers plz. ty.

olemanwinter · January 2015

If I could dictate the system I believe the following would solve it:

*+50 % more traders in prime locations

(This would allow medium sized trade guilds a chance at prime locations and thereby open up sub-prime locations to social guilds)

*An auto-bid system like Ebay. You select the max bid you are willing to give but it automatically bids only $1 higher than the next highest bid.

This would help in remote locations where guilds with only 5k worth of goods in the store are overbidding 10k for the trader and help remove the risk of bidding too high against possible "vanity" bidders.

*An increase in the number of members required for the trader to be higher than that of the guild store. Perhaps 75 or 100 members.

This would greatly reduce the number of "vanity" traders or fake guilds where 5 friends and 45 unactives make up a guild and compete for traders. Again, this would only change things, and make it easier, for social guilds.

*An addition of new fixed-price, first come first serve, style traders in non-prime locations as an alternative option. Make it graphically obvious from a distance which are occupied so customers can skip those that are regular NPC merchants.

This would give an alternative to the bid style, decrease demand on the more prime locations, and add diversity to the game world.

timidobserver · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

WIth regard to changing traders every so often:

You make more money if you keep the same kiosk. People become familiar with your location and if your selection and prices are good people will always know exactly where to find you at.

Also, I don't think anyone is saying that there is a problem with people outbidding someone and taking their trader. The problem is with joining their guild to find out what their bid is.

freakyfreak · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

A targeted guild does not get a notification telling them they were outbid. But a targeted guild sends a notification out to the world via bank log informing everyone what and when they bid.
That seems very unfair. Like a form of cheating. Not cool ZOS.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

olemanwinter wrote: »

If I could dictate the system I believe the following would solve it:

*+50 % more traders in prime locations

(This would allow medium sized trade guilds a chance at prime locations and thereby open up sub-prime locations to social guilds)

*An auto-bid system like Ebay. You select the max bid you are willing to give but it automatically bids only $1 higher than the next highest bid.

This would help in remote locations where guilds with only 5k worth of goods in the store are overbidding 10k for the trader and help remove the risk of bidding too high against possible "vanity" bidders.

*An increase in the number of members required for the trader to be higher than that of the guild store. Perhaps 75 or 100 members.

This would greatly reduce the number of "vanity" traders or fake guilds where 5 friends and 45 unactives make up a guild and compete for traders. Again, this would only change things, and make it easier, for social guilds.

*An addition of new fixed-price, first come first serve, style traders in non-prime locations as an alternative option. Make it graphically obvious from a distance which are occupied so customers can skip those that are regular NPC merchants.

This would give an alternative to the bid style, decrease demand on the more prime locations, and add diversity to the game world.

Or make more undesirable spots more like Rawl'kha which has a weekly bid of 600k+ while the next highest is 100k that should tell you something.

smacx250 · January 2015

Only Hired amount is viewable to all guild members

Another option is to make the winning bid visible to the entire guild only after the has been won (e.g., an invisible "hold" is placed on the funds prior to a bid being won). Prior to that it is only visible to the bidder. This gives transparency for won bids, but hides live bids from the "spys".

Edit: Is this the third option?

BoloBoffin · January 2015

Kiosk directories would solve the problem. Location is fine, but if you know good prices are in the one kiosk in the east of Coldharbour, it's just a port away. And maybe you check the local kiosks first.

If Zenimax doesn't want to list them all, then maybe that's something else that could be bid on or at least purchased.

ETA: I say, solve the problem. It doesn't solve the problem of blind bids vs info for the guild. But if people could advertise their kiosk on a few directories, then they might not try to dislodge the established guild. Or if they did, then the established guild could grab an unused kiosk for the week and toss up a directory listing in the old area.

Bryndle · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

Something needs to be done. Since the implementation of the 10 day record/search, guilds have found themselves in a battleground of bid wars. Therfore, you may as well make the bidding open to view by all at each trader. At least it would be above board and remove accusations of sniping.

To pretend that this system is a true blind bid is simply not realistic. Any major guild is most likely able to know what all other major guilds are doing. To think this isn't true is just naive. The current population is simply not large enough. Instead it is small enough that when you allow membership in 5 guilds there os going to be shared people in most of these guilds.

In an ideal world we can say we are all noble and don't share the info but lets face it this is a video game where people hide behind personas that don't require accountability for behavior. While it would be nice to be altruistic we really cannot expect anything else. It is neither right nor wrong, simply the way it is. If major corporations can have spies why not a game.

Simply give the guild leaders the power by permissions to allow who will or will not see the bid. The guild permission mechanic already exists in game it should not be hard to include this extra feature in it.

Anslay · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

smacx250 wrote: »

Another option is to make the winning bid visible to the entire guild only after the has been won (e.g., an invisible "hold" is placed on the funds prior to a bid being won). Prior to that it is only visible to the bidder. This gives transparency for won bids, but hides live bids from the "spys".

Edit: Is this the third option?

It is.

EQBallzz · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

olemanwinter wrote: »

I looked for an option that said, "the bid amount showing to guild members is the LEAST of the problems with the trader system", but couldn't find it.

Deome wrote: »

Planting a flag in the sand and saying "No one else can have this, ever!" only makes everyone else think, "What a jerk! Someone should take their kiosk..."

I think that comment and the ones that follow it don't reflect "MOST" players as you claim they do.

There is no saying"No one else can have this, ever!" You either still have the kiosk or you don't. The inherent message is a product of your own mind. You are projecting.

And recognizing that, I don't go out of my way to try to get a trader just because someone else has had it. If I didn't already want the trader, why would I want it just because you have it???

But maybe I'm just a well rounded sane person.

Anyway, if your goods are reasonably priced and you hold a wide variety, then people will seek you out for repeat visits. This is more difficult the more you move.

It's natural to want to be in the same place if your guild store is healthy.

Just like real life, the only businesses that move constantly are the ones that are dishonest or failing!

Deome wrote: »

No one eats at Burger King because they can't find a McDonald's.

Actually yes they do. When you are traveling down the interstate you don't drive around in circle in an unknown town looking for a McDonalds when a Burger King was at the exit.

And in your own town, if it's a decent sized city, you chose your dinner spot based on the selections nearby.

Sure you might prefer Ruby Tuesdays and go there occasionally, but if Chili's, Applebee's, and Texas Roadhouse are all 30 minutes closer, you are more likely to select them.

And finally, and most importantly, the analogy doesn't hold, because unlike in real life where you can use your smart phone, or 411, or the yellow pages to find McDonalds while you pass by Burger King, when a trader moves a customer cannot find it unless they stumble across it or search it out methodically.

Agree with you completely. I doubt anyone is going out of their way to keep the same trader just to be a jerk. There are way more guilds that want traders than there are traders. If you have one that you normally get not only do people know where to find you but it's more of a known quantity if you bid on it each week so you know about how much it will take to hold it. If you move around a lot you have no clue what someone else has been bidding so could go through a series of failed bids and by the time you get a winning bid everyone has left your guild for a guild with more consistency. With limited bank/bag space most people likely want to keep stuff moving.

EQBallzz · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I think what this really shows is the underlying issues with this guild trader system. It really needs to be overhauled into something better. This attempt at having a watered down auction house is not working. I'm not saying they absolutely need to add an auction house but they need a more inclusive system rather than this silly exclusive one that pits guilds in this weekly "do or die" battle for guild traders. I don't think that is a healthy system for any sort of longevity and is only creating a Wal-Mart style system that pushes out the little guy.

I disagree totally the system is pretty cool as it is, some tweaks here and there would make it better but it's really fun, just don't show my bid to 450 strangers plz. ty.

That's cool for you but why should a small guild of 50 people be excluded from trading just because they can't afford to outbid a guild of 500? It's sort of a nonsensical system that excludes people for no apparent reason.

Hell, I would be fine with the system if they would just add another option for those who can't compete in the trader bidding wars. Have some bulletin boards in major cities that allow individuals (or guilds with no trader) to post things for sale or even post things they want to buy. That would at least give everyone some kind of opportunity to buy/sell stuff (other than spamming chat) regardless of how big/active their guild is.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

EQBallzz wrote: »

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I think what this really shows is the underlying issues with this guild trader system. It really needs to be overhauled into something better. This attempt at having a watered down auction house is not working. I'm not saying they absolutely need to add an auction house but they need a more inclusive system rather than this silly exclusive one that pits guilds in this weekly "do or die" battle for guild traders. I don't think that is a healthy system for any sort of longevity and is only creating a Wal-Mart style system that pushes out the little guy.

I disagree totally the system is pretty cool as it is, some tweaks here and there would make it better but it's really fun, just don't show my bid to 450 strangers plz. ty.

That's cool for you but why should a small guild of 50 people be excluded from trading just because they can't afford to outbid a guild of 500? It's sort of a nonsensical system that excludes people for no apparent reason.

Hell, I would be fine with the system if they would just add another option for those who can't compete in the trader bidding wars. Have some bulletin boards in major cities that allow individuals (or guilds with no trader) to post things for sale or even post things they want to buy. That would at least give everyone some kind of opportunity to buy/sell stuff (other than spamming chat) regardless of how big/active their guild is.

You don't need to outbid anyone, there are empty traders every week that no one has bid on.

smacx250 · January 2015

Only Hired amount is viewable to all guild members

EQBallzz wrote: »

That's cool for you but why should a small guild of 50 people be excluded from trading just because they can't afford to outbid a guild of 500? It's sort of a nonsensical system that excludes people for no apparent reason.

Because it is a mechanism that ensures that players looking for goods in the most trafficked locations aren't faced with kiosks that only have a relatively few crappy items stocked!

ElfFromSpace · January 2015

Bid History / Hired amount is viewable only to those with permissions to bid on the Guild Trader

I really want to see them allow guilds to post guild info and have an "Apply to Join" button at the kiosk. This would likely rather dramatically increase the cost of stalls but it would be worth it because it would save officers a lot of time spamming zone chat to recruit.

MissBizz · January 2015

Make the bid blind to everyone who can't bid until the traders are hired. THEN release the bid to be viewable.

Iago · January 2015

With the blind bidding system Do you get your money back if you lose the bid

The Elder Scrolls Online

Viewable Bid History for kiosks defeats the purpose of a blind bid system. How is this best solved?

Viewable Bid History for kiosks defeats the purpose of a blind bid system. How is this best solved? 121 votes