WolfingHour wrote: »

Of course it applies to all ultimates. The conversation is about ultimate gain as a whole regardless of your attempt at misdirection.

Yes, it is about the system as a whole, and in not trying to misdirect or attack you.

I am adressing the system as a whole, and I cited two ultimates that are essentially active abilities. If these two are also not supposed to be used in such a way, then I am challenging your assessment of the system. Notably;

In any case, you think they were designed to be used almost as an active ability whereas I don't, so we'll agree to disagree.

That is all.

Joejudas wrote: »

Ok so find me one serious end game player who praises the change....cause I'm in those guild's.....and they all hate the change. Your worried about game functionality....really ?!?!? You have an entire server for PvP that runs at 10 fps on a good pc and you think ult spam inside a raid is bad functionality.

well im sure some PvPers enjoy the change... there is more to endgame than PvE

Bouvin wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

ESO just took the "thinking" out of gaining Ultimate, which is a huge part of combat. Much how SWG started taking the thinking out of their game.. which eventually ended up in a huge purge of subscribers, and the game getting shut down.

Spamming healing springs on the group before an encounter to farm ultimate wasn't exactly "cerebral gameplay".

But not everyone was relegated to doing this. It wasn't the ONLY way to gain ultimate. Not EVERYONE specs healing on one bar.

Now the ONLY way to gain ultimate is doing a light attack, or running a resto stick in one hand and throwing a healing spell every 8 seconds.

You will now only have 2 choices to gain ultimate, instead of many many many options.

Yes, and this is a great improvement to the combat system. Instead of blindly spam AOE spells, in a brainless way, we will now have to play our character in a smart way.

How is doing a light attack every 8 seconds smarter?

The only thing they've changed is simplifying the way you gain ultimate. Which to me isn't playing smarter...because I don't see the extra thinking in clicking the left mouse button once every 8 seconds as opposed to having to think out a build.

I agree. I don't understand the criticism that spamming AoE is more brainless then this. Of course there is more to it than that, designing a build, getting the gear, etc.

On the other hand I also agree that the system needs to be looked at in general. IMHO Crits should really only provide bonus damage. Ult gain mechanics above and beyond a "standard" means like this new proposal should be implemented again in some form, maybe skills, passives, gear, potions, anything else, so that we can make builds that do generate more than the average Joe because that would be a fun and optional variant to be able to build, simply.

Generally though, I'm OK with them kinda resetting back to a baseline like what they are proposing, at least it'll be a good starting point. BUT I would like to see future development of ultimate gain in other means and have them be balanced so that what you are missing out on by doing such builds is more or less not too substantial or not - viable but not OP.

People tend to conflate issues together, like is happening here.

There are 2 separate issues.
1) Is there a problem with the current rate of ultimate gain in PvE or PvP?
2) Is the ZOS change to ultimate going to result in more interesting gameplay or more boring gameplay in PvE or PvP?

I think most people agree that the answer to #1 is yes, there is a problem. Bat swarm spam in PvP, and to a lesser extent Banner and Veil spam in PvE (though you could argue that the current high end content is designed with that frequency of ultimate in mind and will be extremely difficult without it).

Also the class imbalances in Ultimate generate will be further exacerbated with the limits on AOE being raised.

Now on to point #2, which is the pain for me. I think the solution is terrible because:
- It is an annoying chore for tanks in PvE. DPS will already be light attack weaving with animation canceling and healers will be healing the DPS, so its mainly tanks that have to change their playstyle; to do a light attack which produces some vulnerability it return for a basically no damage attack every 8 seconds.

- It doesn't change Ultimate usage, just the tempo of the game. For example a complaint earlier in this thread is that ultimates are dropped every trash pull or every pvp rush...they still will be.

In PvE if its faster overall people will leave 1 melee mob alive and light attack it until ultimates are ready again before moving on. It won't prevent people from having ultimates every time it matters, it just makes it a chore.

PVP Is the same. It will be Bow or Staff from afar, then charge when ultimate is full. Same result, only with annoying make work in the middle.

- It DOES dumb the system down. Not because the current system is particularly clever or balanced, but there are 0 tradeoffs or decisions to be made.

You cannot make a build that focuses on more ultimate generation with any real effect, and you would be stupid NOT to light attack for the buff, so it takes away any chance of a system where strategic (build) or tactical (action oriented) decisions have any impact on an important piece of combat

Summary
I this point, instead of doing some stupid make work attack they should just have ultimates on a cooldown and have ultimate generating gear and skills reduce the cooldown. It accomplishes the same effect without the annoyance.

BUT I will be very sad if this makes it to production. I understand there are serious issues currently, but its hardly very "ultimate" feeling to be able to cast it every 2 min like clockwork and it takes away a whole branch of possible builds (that are currently overpowered, yes, but that is like removing the DK class because its not balanced instead of trying to balance it).

I like build diversity, and theorycrafting like many do, and I feel as we go like the options are being closed 1 by 1 to WoW levels, where you want to be a healer? Okay you must be a templar and here is the One True Build and One True Armor Set. Tank, same. DPS you get 2 choices, lucky you. I don't want to see that.

I don't know about ultimate in the game as it easy to use. At the moment it doesn't seem like an ultimate ability and the build up is rather a joke.

I suppose right now they are just fixing it baseline so certain playstyles like tanking and healing don't become a huge fly on the wall while others DPS and such.

It is a rather confusing system on how to garner points with so many different dispensing methods.

Joejudas wrote: »

Ok so find me one serious end game player who praises the change....cause I'm in those guild's.....and they all hate the change. Your worried about game functionality....really ?!?!? You have an entire server for PvP that runs at 10 fps on a good pc and you think ult spam inside a raid is bad functionality.

I am a serious end game player who approves of the change. I am also a DK fire mage with 59% crit (without pvp buffs) that can generate a lot of ultimate and drop multiple DK standards in some fights.

My guild breezes through AA and HRC. We are currently working on Mantikora in SO (got him to 50% last night!). Our primary challenge is keeping people alive during the poison spears - specifically dropping Novas and Veils at the correct time. This change will make SO harder for my guild. This change will make it so my guild takes longer to beat Mantikora.

Having said all that, I approve of the change.

I am curious where this notion comes from that every change/update needs to make players more powerful. If a game is imbalanced / too easy (just 2 examples), then the correct course of action is to balance the game / make it more challenging. Even if that means a loss of personal DPS or a loss of some of one's OP-ness.

My 2 cents.

amasuriel wrote: »

People tend to conflate issues together, like is happening here.

There are 2 separate issues.
1) Is there a problem with the current rate of ultimate gain in PvE or PvP?
2) Is the ZOS change to ultimate going to result in more interesting gameplay or more boring gameplay in PvE or PvP?

I think most people agree that the answer to #1 is yes, there is a problem. Bat swarm spam in PvP, and to a lesser extent Banner and Veil spam in PvE (though you could argue that the current high end content is designed with that frequency of ultimate in mind and will be extremely difficult without it).

They have said that all encounters are being reworked as well with the champion system, so I don't think they would put this new ultimate generation system and not make sure dungeons / trials are on the same page

amasuriel wrote: »

Also the class imbalances in Ultimate generate will be further exacerbated with the limits on AOE being raised.

Not when how we generate ultimate is being changed, all build archetypes will be generating at the same rate.

amasuriel wrote: »

Now on to point #2, which is the pain for me. I think the solution is terrible because:
- It is an annoying chore for tanks in PvE. DPS will already be light attack weaving with animation canceling and healers will be healing the DPS, so its mainly tanks that have to change their playstyle; to do a light attack which produces some vulnerability it return for a basically no damage attack every 8 seconds.

This is not true, I play a main tank, have done all the dungeons and trials except for SO and I constantly weave in heavy attacks with my tank rotation, free stamina ? Yes please ! So if your idea of tanking is just holding block and hitting taunt every 15 secs then your doing it wrong.

amasuriel wrote: »

- It doesn't change Ultimate usage, just the tempo of the game. For example a complaint earlier in this thread is that ultimates are dropped every trash pull or every pvp rush...they still will be.

In PvE if its faster overall people will leave 1 melee mob alive and light attack it until ultimates are ready again before moving on. It won't prevent people from having ultimates every time it matters, it just makes it a chore.

This new system most definitely does affect the frequency they will be dropped, this is why your taking it upon yourself to leave a mob alive so that you can continue the play style that the current system supports. If the group decides they want ultimates on every encounter then it is their decision to make it a "chore" and generate ultimate through unusual ways like leaving one mob alive before the next pull. Can we still have ultimate for the encounters we want ? Yes we can !

amasuriel wrote: »

PVP Is the same. It will be Bow or Staff from afar, then charge when ultimate is full. Same result, only with annoying make work in the middle.

I am not sure if you have spent much time in cyrodil but that is definitely not how it's going down at the moment. Currently anyone who knows the mechanics well enough knows that the best way to build ultimate is not by using a destro staff or a bow it is by using the restoration staff. They also know that ultimate can be generated this way when you are OUT OF COMBAT. This is why you will see all organized groups spamming healing springs to load their ultimate before any encounters or breech pushes. With the new system in 1.6 this will no longer be an option, ultimatewill only be generated while in combat and at a steady rate so people will know that after X amount of time in combat if everything goes as planned I will have my ultimate ready in X amount of seconds. This system will require groups to coordinate their utimates and have to communicate with one another to have the ultimate dumps that we see now in pvp.

amasuriel wrote: »

- It DOES dumb the system down. Not because the current system is particularly clever or balanced, but there are 0 tradeoffs or decisions to be made.

You cannot make a build that focuses on more ultimate generation with any real effect, and you would be stupid NOT to light attack for the buff, so it takes away any chance of a system where strategic (build) or tactical (action oriented) decisions have any impact on an important piece of combat

The current system we have is confusing and has many hidden mechanic that can only be found through trial and error. The developers themselves have said they believe the current ultimate generation system is too convoluted. ZoS doesn't want people to focus a build on ultimate generation, when in reality all that build is crit stacking. Not really that much of a strategy going on there, just stack as much crit as you can and do some AOE. This new system will require to have more variation in your build to maximize dmg, a lot of skill changes are happening in 1.6 skills that are useless now may become staples of dps builds. If anything I would argue that this system is more action oriented because you will have to keep the ultimate generation buff up. Last 2 points here, the only builds that were not including heavy or light attacks in there rotation are mostly magicka builds. Last point is that the new ultimate generation system synergizes with the resource replishment system that heavy attacks have. Now a heavy attack will not only give you resources back but it will also keep your ultimate generation going that is a two for one deal there and I like it.

amasuriel wrote: »

Summary
I this point, instead of doing some stupid make work attack they should just have ultimates on a cooldown and have ultimate generating gear and skills reduce the cooldown. It accomplishes the same effect without the annoyance.

BUT I will be very sad if this makes it to production. I understand there are serious issues currently, but its hardly very "ultimate" feeling to be able to cast it every 2 min like clockwork and it takes away a whole branch of possible builds (that are currently overpowered, yes, but that is like removing the DK class because its not balanced instead of trying to balance it).

I like build diversity, and theorycrafting like many do, and I feel as we go like the options are being closed 1 by 1 to WoW levels, where you want to be a healer? Okay you must be a templar and here is the One True Build and One True Armor Set. Tank, same. DPS you get 2 choices, lucky you. I don't want to see that.

I disagree with you, it doesn't feel very ultimate being able to drop them every 30 secs, sometimes faster, I know I can drop double banners if I want to , they would feel more powerful IMO if we are using them less often but this is a point that everyone has their own opinion. Like I said this change WILL promote build diversity because crit stacking for maximum ultimate will not be the best dps anymore. I explained this point in the previous bullet. The changes in 1.6 IMO all support build diversity, something that the current ultimate system we have now does not. Why does my DK have to use a resto staff to be on par with everyone else in terms of ultimate generation ? The system we have now pigeon holds people into certain builds if they want to maxixmize their ultimates

Bouvin wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

ESO just took the "thinking" out of gaining Ultimate, which is a huge part of combat. Much how SWG started taking the thinking out of their game.. which eventually ended up in a huge purge of subscribers, and the game getting shut down.

Spamming healing springs on the group before an encounter to farm ultimate wasn't exactly "cerebral gameplay".

But not everyone was relegated to doing this. It wasn't the ONLY way to gain ultimate. Not EVERYONE specs healing on one bar.

Now the ONLY way to gain ultimate is doing a light attack, or running a resto stick in one hand and throwing a healing spell every 8 seconds.

You will now only have 2 choices to gain ultimate, instead of many many many options.

Yes, and this is a great improvement to the combat system. Instead of blindly spam AOE spells, in a brainless way, we will now have to play our character in a smart way.

why dont you elaborate the smart way for the rest of us.....and dont say " do a light attack....then wait 8 secs....then do another light attack" like i think your about to tell me. Just for your info and everyone elses....i use the dots from combining Unstable flame, rending, fiery breath and flames of oblivion with rapid strikes to build my ult....not mindlessly spamming aoe. but i mean some people just dont get this i guess

Using dots to build ultimates was not a good combat system. It does not require any particular effort.

And clicking your left mouse button once every 8 seconds does?

At least we need to do something to build up our ultimate points. I don't care if it's a light attack, a heavy attack, or any other special action. We have to take care of this buff if we want to use our ultimate skills, and this new system is much better than just applying dots with a high crit rate...

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

This is not true, I play a main tank, have done all the dungeons and trials except for SO and I constantly weave in heavy attacks with my tank rotation, free stamina ? Yes please ! So if your idea of tanking is just holding block and hitting taunt every 15 secs then your doing it wrong.

If you need stamina back from a heavy attack while tanking I think YOU are doing it wrong Nowhere did I say I was just holding block and taunting every 15 seconds, however I won't get any credit for those actions, just for Heavy or Light attack. So its fine for you since you heavy attack anyway. I don't, I do other things that work better with my build, and I shouldn't be penalized for that.

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

This new system most definitely does affect the frequency they will be dropped, this is why your taking it upon yourself to leave a mob alive so that you can continue the play style that the current system supports. If the group decides they want ultimates on every encounter then it is their decision to make it a "chore" and generate ultimate through unusual ways like leaving one mob alive before the next pull. Can we still have ultimate for the encounters we want ? Yes we can !

Right but the point is the system will encourage this, just like the existing system encourages AOE crit builds

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

I am not sure if you have spent much time in cyrodil but that is definitely not how it's going down at the moment. Currently anyone who knows the mechanics well enough knows that the best way to build ultimate is not by using a destro staff or a bow it is by using the restoration staff. They also know that ultimate can be generated this way when you are OUT OF COMBAT. This is why you will see all organized groups spamming healing springs to load their ultimate before any encounters or breech pushes. With the new system in 1.6 this will no longer be an option, ultimatewill only be generated while in combat and at a steady rate so people will know that after X amount of time in combat if everything goes as planned I will have my ultimate ready in X amount of seconds. This system will require groups to coordinate their utimates and have to communicate with one another to have the ultimate dumps that we see now in pvp.

Okay fair enough, I can see your point on this, since it will require some co-ordination for best effect, which is a good thing.

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

The current system we have is confusing and has many hidden mechanic that can only be found through trial and error. The developers themselves have said they believe the current ultimate generation system is too convoluted. ZoS doesn't want people to focus a build on ultimate generation, when in reality all that build is crit stacking. Not really that much of a strategy going on there, just stack as much crit as you can and do some AOE. This new system will require to have more variation in your build to maximize dmg, a lot of skill changes are happening in 1.6 skills that are useless now may become staples of dps builds. If anything I would argue that this system is more action oriented because you will have to keep the ultimate generation buff up. Last 2 points here, the only builds that were not including heavy or light attacks in there rotation are mostly magicka builds. Last point is that the new ultimate generation system synergizes with the resource replishment system that heavy attacks have. Now a heavy attack will not only give you resources back but it will also keep your ultimate generation going that is a two for one deal there and I like it.

Right at the top I tried to make it clear I wasn't defending the existing system, I just think the new system is throwing the baby out with the bathwater

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

I disagree with you, it doesn't feel very ultimate being able to drop them every 30 secs, sometimes faster, I know I can drop double banners if I want to , they would feel more powerful IMO if we are using them less often but this is a point that everyone has their own opinion. Like I said this change WILL promote build diversity because crit stacking for maximum ultimate will not be the best dps anymore. I explained this point in the previous bullet. The changes in 1.6 IMO all support build diversity, something that the current ultimate system we have now does not. Why does my DK have to use a resto staff to be on par with everyone else in terms of ultimate generation ? The system we have now pigeon holds people into certain builds if they want to maxixmize their ultimates

Again, not saying the existing system is good, just that because it has a lot of factors it could be made clearer and more balanced...the fact that the info right now on what generates ultimate isn't clear isn't a facet of the system, its a facet of poor in game information and tutorials.

The new system however doesn't leave them anywhere to go or balance. There is no nuance to it. I agree the current system encourages a certain type of build, but without it something else will be the best DPS instead and makes ultimate generation boring and predictable...which is good for curbing the current high ultimate gain but bad for interesting gameplay

Bouvin wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

The system isn't supposed to be discouraging having builds that are better at dps than others, it's discouraging the over-usage of Ultimates and helping bridge the disparity between high and low Ult gain builds.

So clicking a light attack every 8 secs is diversity huh ? Lol

Apparently.

Anyway, if we are used to light attack weaving technics to increase our DPS, it's not of a big deal if the light attack is also a mean to build our ult points.