Varicite wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

The OP clearly states why the design is bad. I can summarize again for you:

Okay, for starters, continually touting "look at the OP" doesn't tell me anything, as I have just as clearly disagreed w/ your assessment of the situation in the OP.

So let's break this down a bit (warning, this is prolly gonna be long):

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

PvP: It makes sieging (both offense and defense) an unliked job, because you aren't generating any ultimate, and encourages players to do stupid things like get off siege, run to the wall, light attack, then go back to their siege.

Players who are using siege weapons in PvP are generally doing it for reasons outside of Ultimate gain. Most of the time, the benefit of well-utilized siege equipment far outweighs the temporary loss of Ult gain.

Are there selfish players who would rather fight on foot than use siege? Of course, they already exist currently on live. On the flipside, there are also players currently on live (like me) who are fielding siege to help their faction in battle and will continue to do so.

Post Ult gain changes, both types of players will still continue to exist. This seems like a wash.

In any case, I imagine for most players, they'll just build siege equipment after they've already gained Ult and the problem you've described is now entirely circumvented.

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

PvE: There are times in an 8 second period where a tank has to keep block up or die. Even as long as 10-15 seconds straight. This means they are losing the Ultimate Buff for a bit just to do their job. The tank is the one player you WANT to be dropping ultimates. So, again, this just makes no sense and makes things arbitrarily harder.

Have you tanked in PvE often? What is your Ult gain currently like as a tank? Are you generating more or less than the proposed change on live?

I ask these questions because, in my limited experience, Ult gain is currently an abysmal affair and the 1.6 changes to the system sound absolutely awesome to me. I don't hold my block button constantly, I generally only try to block the things that are necessary, or dodge-roll out of heavy hits.

Post 1.6, even if I let the Ult gain buff drop off for 1-3 seconds (unlikely, but there are times that you need to block), I will STILL be receiving a great deal MORE Ult than I currently do on live in the same time period.

That's not even taking into account the fact that as you learn fights and mechanics, you will be able to time your cancelled light attacks to land when it's safer to do so, adding not only more Ult than I get on live currently, but also adding a much-needed skill component to generating Ult as a tank.

This seems like a win.

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

For either PvP or PvE: the intent of the change is to prevent Ultimate Gain spikes thru wierd combinations of abilities and gear, resulting in overuse of ultimates. The buff idea is that ultimate gain is normalized, not spikey. So long as the implementation achieves that goal, then ZoS has no reason to put forth a design which has flaws (light/heavy attacks only) vs one that does not have them (any damaging attack).

What you've described is only a single aspect of why this change is being implemented.

I touched on another aspect above, which is the fact that tanks generate Ult extremely slowly compared to the other roles, and as you have freely stated: "The tank is the one player you WANT to be dropping ultimates." The change benefits tanks FAR more than it hinders them.

Another aspect is simply to bring builds that don't rely quite so heavily on crit and AoE + heals + DoTs into increased viability by both curbing spike Ult gain (as you mentioned) and increasing Ult gain for builds that did not rely increasingly on the current Ult gain gimmicks.

Increased build variety is also a win, imo.

So, sorry for the novel, but I firmly disagree w/ the points you've put forward in your OP and your other posts in this thread (which mostly just said to re-read the OP that I already disagreed w/, lol), and you're really not bringing much else to the table than repeating the same misguided logic like a broken record.

If you've got more than what the OP says, I'd love to hear it, because so far it doesn't really seem like you've got anything more than a thinly veiled argument to keep block-casting just the way it is right now on live.

CP5 wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

The OP clearly states why the design is bad. I can summarize again for you:

Okay, for starters, continually touting "look at the OP" doesn't tell me anything, as I have just as clearly disagreed w/ your assessment of the situation in the OP.

So let's break this down a bit (warning, this is prolly gonna be long):

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

PvP: It makes sieging (both offense and defense) an unliked job, because you aren't generating any ultimate, and encourages players to do stupid things like get off siege, run to the wall, light attack, then go back to their siege.

Players who are using siege weapons in PvP are generally doing it for reasons outside of Ultimate gain. Most of the time, the benefit of well-utilized siege equipment far outweighs the temporary loss of Ult gain.

Are there selfish players who would rather fight on foot than use siege? Of course, they already exist currently on live. On the flipside, there are also players currently on live (like me) who are fielding siege to help their faction in battle and will continue to do so.

Post Ult gain changes, both types of players will still continue to exist. This seems like a wash.

In any case, I imagine for most players, they'll just build siege equipment after they've already gained Ult and the problem you've described is now entirely circumvented.

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

PvE: There are times in an 8 second period where a tank has to keep block up or die. Even as long as 10-15 seconds straight. This means they are losing the Ultimate Buff for a bit just to do their job. The tank is the one player you WANT to be dropping ultimates. So, again, this just makes no sense and makes things arbitrarily harder.

Have you tanked in PvE often? What is your Ult gain currently like as a tank? Are you generating more or less than the proposed change on live?

I ask these questions because, in my limited experience, Ult gain is currently an abysmal affair and the 1.6 changes to the system sound absolutely awesome to me. I don't hold my block button constantly, I generally only try to block the things that are necessary, or dodge-roll out of heavy hits.

Post 1.6, even if I let the Ult gain buff drop off for 1-3 seconds (unlikely, but there are times that you need to block), I will STILL be receiving a great deal MORE Ult than I currently do on live in the same time period.

That's not even taking into account the fact that as you learn fights and mechanics, you will be able to time your cancelled light attacks to land when it's safer to do so, adding not only more Ult than I get on live currently, but also adding a much-needed skill component to generating Ult as a tank.

This seems like a win.

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

For either PvP or PvE: the intent of the change is to prevent Ultimate Gain spikes thru wierd combinations of abilities and gear, resulting in overuse of ultimates. The buff idea is that ultimate gain is normalized, not spikey. So long as the implementation achieves that goal, then ZoS has no reason to put forth a design which has flaws (light/heavy attacks only) vs one that does not have them (any damaging attack).

What you've described is only a single aspect of why this change is being implemented.

I touched on another aspect above, which is the fact that tanks generate Ult extremely slowly compared to the other roles, and as you have freely stated: "The tank is the one player you WANT to be dropping ultimates." The change benefits tanks FAR more than it hinders them.

Another aspect is simply to bring builds that don't rely quite so heavily on crit and AoE + heals + DoTs into increased viability by both curbing spike Ult gain (as you mentioned) and increasing Ult gain for builds that did not rely increasingly on the current Ult gain gimmicks.

Increased build variety is also a win, imo.

So, sorry for the novel, but I firmly disagree w/ the points you've put forward in your OP and your other posts in this thread (which mostly just said to re-read the OP that I already disagreed w/, lol), and you're really not bringing much else to the table than repeating the same misguided logic like a broken record.

If you've got more than what the OP says, I'd love to hear it, because so far it doesn't really seem like you've got anything more than a thinly veiled argument to keep block-casting just the way it is right now on live.

PvP: your points simply aren't valid, as they fall under the logical fallacy "Appeal to Tradition" (its always worked this way, so it must be good). I clearly indicated that its a better playing experience to just "PvP normally" and do whatever needs to be done or whatever you choose to do, and receive your ultimate points as a result of your actions, instead of inserting a completely arbitrary requirement to get the buff.

PvE: you must not really play a tank. I play a NB Tank (and have also tanked on a DK, but he is retired now). I generate ultimate so fast that I can drop a second Veil of Blades anywhere from 4-8 seconds after the previous one. I was able to drop two Banners at the same time on my DK.

Tanking (bosses mind you, not trash) involves two and only two things: taunting and surviving. Once you've taunted, you have 15 seconds before you have to do it again. If you just stand around blocking for those 15 seconds, you're doing it wrong. I am able to drop DoTs and instants on the boss during those 15 seconds to add to the DPS of the party. And then re-apply the taunt. Depending on the boss, you may require block for more than 8 straight seconds.

Anyone in the DPS role who are not having to block Boss attacks can risk a light/heavy attack. Tanks can't.

It also puts a higher skill requirement on content (you now have to be able to animation cancel a light attack) in order to play a tank role. Thats elitism. Elitism encouraged by game rules!

Once again, my proposal is CLEARLY superior to ZoS'. There are no downsides to it, in PvP or PvE.

Just wanted to chime in on this since its kind of amusing and not something I would expect to see on the fourms.

1.) For pvp, and i'm not sure about most people. But when i'm on siege its to siege. I don't jump onto a fire ballista and set a group of enemies on fire, my intent is to damage them and force them to move, not to charge my ultimate so I can jump off siege, run over and hit them with my ultimate.

When i'm attacking a keep, yes a lot of people stand around looking for a fight, but there will always be people on siege since that is what needs to happen, and those who use siege now won't stop just because they won't charge their ults off of it.

2.) They have said they are balancing the ultimate generation buff to be equal to, this being what I remember reading last, equal to someone using one attack and skill a second with a 50% crit rate. Most tanks, who are blocking, won't generate that amount of ultimate over time, and even if they can only get a attack off every 10+ seconds will still be better off in the new system. And if in all of that skill casting that you do to apply your dots and damage you can't work in a single attack, then perhaps their intent is you shouldn't be block casting 24/7.

Brandalf wrote: »

As a tank since early access I can tell you the whole having to drop block every 8 seconds is not an issue at all. If you're holding block indefinitely as a tank you're doing something very wrong.

Varicite wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

I just want to reiterate my appreciation for the thread bumps you guys are posting.

It's cool, ZOS will just see pages of this thread and only 1 person (you) having this opinion, while everybody else disagrees. : P