The Grind - Why Not Take the Creative Approach?

pppontus · January 2015

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I'm still missing something...

"Wut? I gotta do generic MMO quests to advance to max level? *** that, I'm unsubbing"

Because you'd rather do "generic MMO grinding"?

Is grinding any less fulfilling than "generic MMO quests"?

Or is it simply because grinding is "supposed to be" a more efficient way of gaining XP, so one can get to max level faster?

I suspect, but I might be wrong, that people who want to grind rather than quest to get XP do so because of the relative speed of levelling up. However, no matter how much ZOS might nerf XP gained from grinding, if that really is anyone's preference then they will still be able to do it - the only difference is that it might take a bit longer.

You can still play it your way

Yes, the issue is time. And enjoy your lonely game where it takes 300 hours to max level, because you know what.. a lot of people will not play that game. I mean wtf most of the people I started playing with quit over the ~20 hours VR grind.

Removal of vet ranks will fix this, but since it is not here I would rather not see everyone I want to play with quit the game as they can't reach endgame before April or whenever VR goes away.

No one who is interested in competetive PVE or PVP is going to suffer 300 hours to get there. You and I both would like more people to pay ZOS bills, right?

I_killed_Vivec · January 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Yes, the issue is time. And enjoy your lonely game where it takes 300 hours to max level, because you know what.. a lot of people will not play that game. I mean wtf most of the people I started playing with quit over the ~20 hours VR grind.

Removal of vet ranks will fix this, but since it is not here I would rather not see everyone I want to play with quit the game as they can't reach endgame before April or whenever VR goes away.

No one who is interested in competetive PVE or PVP is going to suffer 300 hours to get there. You and I both would like more people to pay ZOS bills, right?

Two things.

1. If the people you know quit because 20 hours was too long to max out then they won't be happy with the Champion System because it will still take more than 20 hours to max out - with or without a nerf to grinding.

2. I don't know, but I do suspect, that a lot of people playing ESO have a more casual attitude. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people playing the game started with Morrowind (or Arena or Daggerfall) progressed through Oblivion, then Skyrim, and now play ESO because it's an Elder Scrolls game. They aren't interested in "competitive PVE", they just like the game. Many aren't even that interested in PvP and probably only have a dip into Cyrodiil from time to time for a bit of fun.

I admit I don't know - but the people here on the forums (many of whom admit to having unsubscribed) can't be considered representative.

As for paying the bills, only ZOS knows the distribution, but someone enjoying a "lonely" 300 hours of game play might be a better fee payer than someone who expects to max out in under 20 hours, completes the "competitive PVE" in a week or so and then unsubs until there is new content.

onlinegamer1 · January 2015

The idea that XP gain should be "balanced" is a patently stupid concept.

Its a fact that in an MMORPG, a new player who buys the game will be level 1 (or whatever that game calls their progression), while a player who has been playing for the last 2 years will have a "maxed" character.

So, the very idea of "balancing" XP is basically moronic. All MMOs should be designed around the fact that different players will be different "levels", and XP gains should be created on a Risk v Reward system - you SHOULD be able to gain more XP faster if its hard to do, and less XP for things easier to do. Then, let the players play.

TehMagnus · January 2015

pppontus wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I'm still missing something...

"Wut? I gotta do generic MMO quests to advance to max level? *** that, I'm unsubbing"

Because you'd rather do "generic MMO grinding"?

Is grinding any less fulfilling than "generic MMO quests"?

Or is it simply because grinding is "supposed to be" a more efficient way of gaining XP, so one can get to max level faster?

I suspect, but I might be wrong, that people who want to grind rather than quest to get XP do so because of the relative speed of levelling up. However, no matter how much ZOS might nerf XP gained from grinding, if that really is anyone's preference then they will still be able to do it - the only difference is that it might take a bit longer.

You can still play it your way

Yes, the issue is time. And enjoy your lonely game where it takes 300 hours to max level, because you know what.. a lot of people will not play that game. I mean wtf most of the people I started playing with quit over the ~20 hours VR grind.

Removal of vet ranks will fix this, but since it is not here I would rather not see everyone I want to play with quit the game as they can't reach endgame before April or whenever VR goes away.

No one who is interested in competetive PVE or PVP is going to suffer 300 hours to get there. You and I both would like more people to pay ZOS bills, right?

They just don't care, they level slowly through questing, don't play much end game trials or PVP so everybody else should be slowed down to the questing speed.

They speak of fairness, people working for levels when all they actually want is for people who don't play like they do (and thus they probably despise) to be annoyed and forced to quest.

There is no logical explanation as to why people should be forced to quest in order to level up effectively, nor why people interested in PVP and Trials should be slowed down by people who take their time questing other than:

Tankqull · January 2015

Syntse wrote: »

The grind spots that people seem to refer usually being the true grind spots have been places where you can take advantage of game mechanics not working correctly.

Hircine - reseting fight to kill all the adds boss throws over and over again
Scorpion - reseting the boss over and over by not killing the adds
Rkunzelft - instant reset of instance by getting out and regrouping
etc...

There are still many spots that has faster monster respawn rate that can be used as grind spots without abuse. So if Zen fixes something that is not working as supposed they should create another one for abuse? If something is too good to be true then it most likely is.

sure if you get 256 XP for killing 16 mobs its a great option for grinding :P or if the respawn has been so much reduced that you have to wait for minutes for the next round.

Faulgor · January 2015

What I miss about ESO in terms of grinding is the ability to create gear only viable for specific grinding spots. Every monster gives you the same exp, so the only factor that determins a good grinding spot is how many mobs there are and how fast they respawn. Thus, grinding is limited to a few best spots.

What I'd like to see is gear that is especially effective against a certain enemy type, or that increases exp from killing that enemy type. Currently, we have this in the form of Evil Hunter from the fighters guild skill line, which makes undead basically a mandatory enemy for grinding - you just kill them faster than anything else. So, why can't we have weapon traits or enchantments that make our attacks especially good against Dwemer automatons, specific races, elements, beasts, etc? This would open up some spots for grinding that are currently underutilized.

BBSooner · January 2015

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

and XP gains should be created on a Risk v Reward system - you SHOULD be able to gain more XP faster if its hard to do, and less XP for things easier to do. Then, let the players play.

Which is why group/vet dungeons should be the superior way to level, as they require coordination and other people to be present. Grinding and questing XP should be normalized to equal XP per hour because both methods, even grinding/questing in public dungeons, are quite easy/soloable.

olsborg · January 2015

I love cyrodiil, I really do.

PvE however, was ok at start, but all the bugs made it horrible after a while, so I just grinded mobs and moved to cyrodiil.

Now when I want to make an alt, its so offputting the amount of grind you have to do and the content is mostly seen before because you mostly did it before.

They should make the veteran content voluntary, and if you have a v14 char already, opt to skip ahead and reach max so you can pvp again (a pvpers perspective)

k9mouse · January 2015

I really enjoy the quest and dialog of NPCs. I have done them many times now. I do have 4 active chars that I play. I also like to grind as well. When I get tried of questing, I will sometime grind for a while. Also, I like to quest at max level (either max level of the zone or VR14, depends how I want to play it for that char.) I can focus on the story of the quest and it flows together better if one does not have to worry about killing trash mobs.

Fact, right now, I have a VR6 Khajiit, but story wise, she is still on the starter island. LOL No, she is not overkill... >_> When I do quest with her and earn my CS points (and not waste quest XP). I can really focus on the quest story, since I already done all the hard work of killing the trash mobs when I grinded with her.

I do not want to force my play style on anyone else, but just how I like to play. I need good grind spots for my play style to work. I know others who like quest 1st then grind or just grind for more end game content. I am not in that big of hurry for end game content, but I do enjoy questing at max level. Different people grind or quest for different reasons and not one reason is better then the other one, just different play styles.

pppontus · January 2015

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Yes, the issue is time. And enjoy your lonely game where it takes 300 hours to max level, because you know what.. a lot of people will not play that game. I mean wtf most of the people I started playing with quit over the ~20 hours VR grind.

Removal of vet ranks will fix this, but since it is not here I would rather not see everyone I want to play with quit the game as they can't reach endgame before April or whenever VR goes away.

No one who is interested in competetive PVE or PVP is going to suffer 300 hours to get there. You and I both would like more people to pay ZOS bills, right?

Two things.

1. If the people you know quit because 20 hours was too long to max out then they won't be happy with the Champion System because it will still take more than 20 hours to max out - with or without a nerf to grinding.

2. I don't know, but I do suspect, that a lot of people playing ESO have a more casual attitude. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people playing the game started with Morrowind (or Arena or Daggerfall) progressed through Oblivion, then Skyrim, and now play ESO because it's an Elder Scrolls game. They aren't interested in "competitive PVE", they just like the game. Many aren't even that interested in PvP and probably only have a dip into Cyrodiil from time to time for a bit of fun.

I admit I don't know - but the people here on the forums (many of whom admit to having unsubscribed) can't be considered representative.

As for paying the bills, only ZOS knows the distribution, but someone enjoying a "lonely" 300 hours of game play might be a better fee payer than someone who expects to max out in under 20 hours, completes the "competitive PVE" in a week or so and then unsubs until there is new content.

1. The Champion System is not something that you should need to max out. If it's so unbalanced that it is needed to be competetive, ZOS is going to lose a [snip] of subs.

2. You suspect that. Obviously that's your view of it, because you're one of those people and most likely the people on your friendslist are the same. I'm in the other world of players playing this game, and all my friends in game are competetive players as I don't solo quest or whatever.

No one knows how many each group is, however your argument about completing competetive PVE in a week doesn't exist as the basis for competetive PVE/PVP is that it is a competition and thus can't end (until of course no competetive players exist, then it's goodbye). Every campaign cycle, leaderboards and all that is a competition against other players, therefore it's dynamic and can last as long as players are willing to compete.

I will reverse your statement and say that the people who quest for 300 hours are then done, there is nothing more when you have completed everything so they will unsub until there is new content. I have personally over 1K hours played and still not getting bored, as I'm competing with other groups/players who make it a neverending challenge to get better. They don't need to spend 1/100th as much time on content for us, as we can take the content and rerun it better every time for quite a while.

Therefore you should definitely be worried about these changes even though they don't affect you personally.

If you want to continue this argument I want an explanation as to why it matters for casual players that I can level faster than them? If they aren't interested in competing - how can they possibly care about what speed I am leveling at?

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Zershar_Vemod · January 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

Or just not nerf it in the first place?

I don't get what the purpose would be of taking one away only to create a new one.

Then again I also don't get the point of taking them away. It's silly. It's like they're saying "NO! Don't get XP that way, I want you to either get it THIS way or get it very slowly!"

Except your "very slowly" means "at the same speed as someone who's leveling through questing/any-other-means-besides-exploiting". They aren't nerfing anything. They're balancing the XP gain so that grinding isn't the most attractive option anymore. It's now even with everything else.

How dare you point out facts!?

----
I love it how people are exploiting multiple higher-than-intended xp gain spots, then they get caught, then they cry about it and rage on the forums.

pppontus · January 2015

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

Or just not nerf it in the first place?

I don't get what the purpose would be of taking one away only to create a new one.

Then again I also don't get the point of taking them away. It's silly. It's like they're saying "NO! Don't get XP that way, I want you to either get it THIS way or get it very slowly!"

Except your "very slowly" means "at the same speed as someone who's leveling through questing/any-other-means-besides-exploiting". They aren't nerfing anything. They're balancing the XP gain so that grinding isn't the most attractive option anymore. It's now even with everything else.

How dare you point out facts!?
----
I love it how people are exploiting multiple higher-than-intended xp gain spots, then they get caught, then they cry about it and rage on the forums.

Why the f*** does it matter to you how fast I level? Since we will never compete anyway which is what I enjoy doing, how could it possibly matter to you?

The only reason is because you're one of those people running around reporting people for grinding. Is it because you can't stand that other people have another idea of fun than you? Is it because you secretly want to be competetive but for some reason can't? I just don't f***ing get it.

No one ever asked for them to do anything to screw the questing crowd, and here the questing crowd is making their usual appearance cheering on any changes that mess things up for the hardcore. Every damn time, it's like you people want F2P.

Zershar_Vemod · January 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

Or just not nerf it in the first place?

I don't get what the purpose would be of taking one away only to create a new one.

Then again I also don't get the point of taking them away. It's silly. It's like they're saying "NO! Don't get XP that way, I want you to either get it THIS way or get it very slowly!"

Except your "very slowly" means "at the same speed as someone who's leveling through questing/any-other-means-besides-exploiting". They aren't nerfing anything. They're balancing the XP gain so that grinding isn't the most attractive option anymore. It's now even with everything else.

How dare you point out facts!?
----
I love it how people are exploiting multiple higher-than-intended xp gain spots, then they get caught, then they cry about it and rage on the forums.

Why the f*** does it matter to you how fast I level? Since we will never compete anyway which is what I enjoy doing, how could it possibly matter to you?

The only reason is because you're one of those people running around reporting people for grinding. Is it because you can't stand that other people have another idea of fun than you? Is it because you secretly want to be competetive but for some reason can't? I just don't f***ing get it.

No one ever asked for them to do anything to screw the questing crowd, and here the questing crowd is making their usual appearance cheering on any changes that mess things up for the hardcore. Every damn time, it's like you people want F2P.

That's a nice amount of assumptions there. I actually haven't reported anyone except the botters that were everywhere early on or the kids who post typical racial/soci-politcal nonsense in zone chat.

And when did I ever say I want F2P? I'm done if this goes F2P....unless you mean, if you actually have to do content in this game, then you might leave and you assume you are important and actually matter and that somehow, with you leaving the game fails...? Is that it?

But thanks for the laughs, all the LOL tags shall be yours for the taking.

I_killed_Vivec · January 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Obviously that's your view of it, because you're one of those people and most likely the people on your friendslist are the same

It isn't me who is saying that grinding XP needs to be brought into line with questing XP or PvP XP.

I do not care how quickly anyone gains XP, or whether you grind, quest or PvP.

It is the view of ZOS.

They are the ones who know the numbers, they are the ones making the decisions. And even if they won't tell us what they are I'm sure they have their reasons (probably something to do with "balance").

Zershar_Vemod · January 2015

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Obviously that's your view of it, because you're one of those people and most likely the people on your friendslist are the same

It isn't me who is saying that grinding XP needs to be brought into line with questing XP or PvP XP.

I do not care how quickly anyone gains XP, or whether you grind, quest or PvP.

It is the view of ZOS.

They are the ones who know the numbers, they are the ones making the decisions. And even if they won't tell us what they are I'm sure they have their reasons (probably something to do with "balance").

I'm honestly just enjoying popcorn as people rage from ZOS fixes spots were unintended amounts of xp were rewarded.

I've also seen elsewhere that some people believe ZOS might be trying to even the field so that the new CP system isn't a cluster, but who knows until detailed notes are given.

All this is is basically children crying that they can't borderline exploit their way to level cap with a blink of an eye. I also love how people claim doing quests are slow, and give hardly any xp. If I had the free time I would have hit VR 14 ages ago; I'm still VR 11, but that's still better than what I was not too long ago.

Zershar_Vemod · January 2015

pppontus wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I'm still missing something...

"Wut? I gotta do generic MMO quests to advance to max level? *** that, I'm unsubbing"

Because you'd rather do "generic MMO grinding"?

Is grinding any less fulfilling than "generic MMO quests"?

Or is it simply because grinding is "supposed to be" a more efficient way of gaining XP, so one can get to max level faster?

I suspect, but I might be wrong, that people who want to grind rather than quest to get XP do so because of the relative speed of levelling up. However, no matter how much ZOS might nerf XP gained from grinding, if that really is anyone's preference then they will still be able to do it - the only difference is that it might take a bit longer.

You can still play it your way

Yes, the issue is time. And enjoy your lonely game where it takes 300 hours to max level, because you know what.. a lot of people will not play that game. I mean wtf most of the people I started playing with quit over the ~20 hours VR grind.

Removal of vet ranks will fix this, but since it is not here I would rather not see everyone I want to play with quit the game as they can't reach endgame before April or whenever VR goes away.

No one who is interested in competitive PVE or PVP is going to suffer 300 hours to get there. You and I both would like more people to pay ZOS bills, right?

Their laziness is everyone else's problem...why?

Sorry, but the "I want everything now!" crowd are one of the issues with this game.

pppontus · January 2015

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

Or just not nerf it in the first place?

I don't get what the purpose would be of taking one away only to create a new one.

Then again I also don't get the point of taking them away. It's silly. It's like they're saying "NO! Don't get XP that way, I want you to either get it THIS way or get it very slowly!"

Except your "very slowly" means "at the same speed as someone who's leveling through questing/any-other-means-besides-exploiting". They aren't nerfing anything. They're balancing the XP gain so that grinding isn't the most attractive option anymore. It's now even with everything else.

How dare you point out facts!?
----
I love it how people are exploiting multiple higher-than-intended xp gain spots, then they get caught, then they cry about it and rage on the forums.

Why the f*** does it matter to you how fast I level? Since we will never compete anyway which is what I enjoy doing, how could it possibly matter to you?

The only reason is because you're one of those people running around reporting people for grinding. Is it because you can't stand that other people have another idea of fun than you? Is it because you secretly want to be competetive but for some reason can't? I just don't f***ing get it.

No one ever asked for them to do anything to screw the questing crowd, and here the questing crowd is making their usual appearance cheering on any changes that mess things up for the hardcore. Every damn time, it's like you people want F2P.

That's a nice amount of assumptions there. I actually haven't reported anyone except the botters that were everywhere early on or the kids who post typical racial/soci-politcal nonsense in zone chat.

And when did I ever say I want F2P? I'm done if this goes F2P....unless you mean, if you actually have to do content in this game, then you might leave and you assume you are important and actually matter and that somehow, with you leaving the game fails...? Is that it?

But thanks for the laughs, all the LOL tags shall be yours for the taking.

Hehe, just as predicted I did not get an answer to the question.

Yes, because I choose to do challenging content instead of murdering my brain by fetching flowers for NPCs I now "don't do content". What was that about assumptions?

Thanks by the way, I need the LOLs for my 5th star.

If you think an MMO can sustain itself by people doing solo questing, you're in for one hell of a surprise.

BBSooner · January 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

Or just not nerf it in the first place?

I don't get what the purpose would be of taking one away only to create a new one.

Then again I also don't get the point of taking them away. It's silly. It's like they're saying "NO! Don't get XP that way, I want you to either get it THIS way or get it very slowly!"

Except your "very slowly" means "at the same speed as someone who's leveling through questing/any-other-means-besides-exploiting". They aren't nerfing anything. They're balancing the XP gain so that grinding isn't the most attractive option anymore. It's now even with everything else.

How dare you point out facts!?
----
I love it how people are exploiting multiple higher-than-intended xp gain spots, then they get caught, then they cry about it and rage on the forums.

Why the f*** does it matter to you how fast I level? Since we will never compete anyway which is what I enjoy doing, how could it possibly matter to you?

The only reason is because you're one of those people running around reporting people for grinding. Is it because you can't stand that other people have another idea of fun than you? Is it because you secretly want to be competetive but for some reason can't? I just don't f***ing get it.

No one ever asked for them to do anything to screw the questing crowd, and here the questing crowd is making their usual appearance cheering on any changes that mess things up for the hardcore. Every damn time, it's like you people want F2P.

That's a nice amount of assumptions there. I actually haven't reported anyone except the botters that were everywhere early on or the kids who post typical racial/soci-politcal nonsense in zone chat.

And when did I ever say I want F2P? I'm done if this goes F2P....unless you mean, if you actually have to do content in this game, then you might leave and you assume you are important and actually matter and that somehow, with you leaving the game fails...? Is that it?

But thanks for the laughs, all the LOL tags shall be yours for the taking.

Hehe, just as predicted I did not get an answer to the question.

Yes, because I choose to do challenging content instead of murdering my brain by fetching flowers for NPCs I now "don't do content". What was that about assumptions?

Thanks by the way, I need the LOLs for my 5th star.

If you think an MMO can sustain itself by people doing solo questing, you're in for one hell of a surprise.

Grinding is not challenging. Please don't pretend it is in an effort to take a superior stance.

onlinegamer1 · January 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

and XP gains should be created on a Risk v Reward system - you SHOULD be able to gain more XP faster if its hard to do, and less XP for things easier to do. Then, let the players play.

Which is why group/vet dungeons should be the superior way to level, as they require coordination and other people to be present. Grinding and questing XP should be normalized to equal XP per hour because both methods, even grinding/questing in public dungeons, are quite easy/soloable.

You left out:

World bosses should go back to much higher XP since they "require" groups.
Public Dungeons (not Delves, which are soloable) should also grant higher XP since they "require" groups.

* "require" is in quotes because some people can solo some world bosses and some public dungeon content.

pppontus · January 2015

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Obviously that's your view of it, because you're one of those people and most likely the people on your friendslist are the same

It isn't me who is saying that grinding XP needs to be brought into line with questing XP or PvP XP.

I do not care how quickly anyone gains XP, or whether you grind, quest or PvP.

It is the view of ZOS.

They are the ones who know the numbers, they are the ones making the decisions. And even if they won't tell us what they are I'm sure they have their reasons (probably something to do with "balance").

I already know their reasoning, they don't want people to grind CP. What they fail to understand is that Veteran Ranks are still here, and will be, for a long while.

What I (and many others) are trying to explain to them is that they are going to lose > hundreds/thousands subs from now to whatever date they choose to remove VRs, if they don't provide a way of leveling skills/ranks for people who do not enjoy spending hundreds of hours on it.

badmojo0777b14_ESO · January 2015

they were giving too much XP to begin with. that's why GRINDERS do it. always lookin for a faster way. its got nothing to do with enjoyment. just short attention spans looking for a quick way to V14.

BBSooner · January 2015

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

and XP gains should be created on a Risk v Reward system - you SHOULD be able to gain more XP faster if its hard to do, and less XP for things easier to do. Then, let the players play.

Which is why group/vet dungeons should be the superior way to level, as they require coordination and other people to be present. Grinding and questing XP should be normalized to equal XP per hour because both methods, even grinding/questing in public dungeons, are quite easy/soloable.

You left out:

World bosses should go back to much higher XP since they "require" groups.
Public Dungeons (not Delves, which are soloable) should also grant higher XP since they "require" groups.

* "require" is in quotes because some people can solo some world bosses and some public dungeon content.

Some solo content is regarded "too difficult" to solo by some players. As of now group/vet dungeons are they only things that require groups (based on current builds) to complete on level, thus it is the only content that should have a higher metric of XP.

Zershar_Vemod · January 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

Or just not nerf it in the first place?

I don't get what the purpose would be of taking one away only to create a new one.

Then again I also don't get the point of taking them away. It's silly. It's like they're saying "NO! Don't get XP that way, I want you to either get it THIS way or get it very slowly!"

Except your "very slowly" means "at the same speed as someone who's leveling through questing/any-other-means-besides-exploiting". They aren't nerfing anything. They're balancing the XP gain so that grinding isn't the most attractive option anymore. It's now even with everything else.

How dare you point out facts!?
----
I love it how people are exploiting multiple higher-than-intended xp gain spots, then they get caught, then they cry about it and rage on the forums.

Why the f*** does it matter to you how fast I level? Since we will never compete anyway which is what I enjoy doing, how could it possibly matter to you?

The only reason is because you're one of those people running around reporting people for grinding. Is it because you can't stand that other people have another idea of fun than you? Is it because you secretly want to be competetive but for some reason can't? I just don't f***ing get it.

No one ever asked for them to do anything to screw the questing crowd, and here the questing crowd is making their usual appearance cheering on any changes that mess things up for the hardcore. Every damn time, it's like you people want F2P.

That's a nice amount of assumptions there. I actually haven't reported anyone except the botters that were everywhere early on or the kids who post typical racial/soci-politcal nonsense in zone chat.

And when did I ever say I want F2P? I'm done if this goes F2P....unless you mean, if you actually have to do content in this game, then you might leave and you assume you are important and actually matter and that somehow, with you leaving the game fails...? Is that it?

But thanks for the laughs, all the LOL tags shall be yours for the taking.

Hehe, just as predicted I did not get an answer to the question.

Yes, because I choose to do challenging content instead of murdering my brain by fetching flowers for NPCs I now "don't do content". What was that about assumptions?

Thanks by the way, I need the LOLs for my 5th star.

If you think an MMO can sustain itself by people doing solo questing, you're in for one hell of a surprise.

"Challenging," you might want to look up the term.

Also, so you assume that all quests are the collect XYZ? Haha you haven't even played the actual game have you?

pppontus wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Obviously that's your view of it, because you're one of those people and most likely the people on your friendslist are the same

It isn't me who is saying that grinding XP needs to be brought into line with questing XP or PvP XP.

I do not care how quickly anyone gains XP, or whether you grind, quest or PvP.

It is the view of ZOS.

They are the ones who know the numbers, they are the ones making the decisions. And even if they won't tell us what they are I'm sure they have their reasons (probably something to do with "balance").

I already know their reasoning, they don't want people to grind CP. What they fail to understand is that Veteran Ranks are still here, and will be, for a long while.

What I (and many others) are trying to explain to them is that they are going to lose > hundreds/thousands subs from now to whatever date they choose to remove VRs, if they don't provide a way of leveling skills/ranks for people who do not enjoy spending hundreds of hours on it.

HAHAHAHAHA

You should try comedy as a side job.

Ahdora · January 2015

It rather annoys me that anyone who is against a nerf to legitimate grinding is labeled as some kind of elitist, or speed leveler, or someone who doesn't want others to level faster than them.

I don't care how fast people level. I don't/didn't speed level. I'm the farthest from an elitist you're likely to find.

I simply care about a FAIR system that doesn't penalize people for choosing to grind. If you want balance, buff quest XP, don't nerf grind XP. It will never be exactly fair, but it would be a lot better than reducing mob XP for no good friggin' reason. They find that a lot of people have found an efficient area to grind XP (example: Spellscar. That was not an exploit) so they say "oh no, that's far too efficient, we must reduce mob XP," thereby affecting everyone NOT just grinders.

Personally I think that seeking balance in this area is just silly and a waste of time, but that's beside the point. It's obviously what they are doing.

Why are all of the arguments for balance focused on reducing mob XP rather than boosting quest XP *or* offering any other alternative to nerfing mob XP? I don't like to make assumptions, but when people can only offer one counterargument for multiple arguments it makes me wonder why they're really arguing.

onlinegamer1 · January 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

and XP gains should be created on a Risk v Reward system - you SHOULD be able to gain more XP faster if its hard to do, and less XP for things easier to do. Then, let the players play.

Which is why group/vet dungeons should be the superior way to level, as they require coordination and other people to be present. Grinding and questing XP should be normalized to equal XP per hour because both methods, even grinding/questing in public dungeons, are quite easy/soloable.

You left out:

World bosses should go back to much higher XP since they "require" groups.
Public Dungeons (not Delves, which are soloable) should also grant higher XP since they "require" groups.

* "require" is in quotes because some people can solo some world bosses and some public dungeon content.

Some solo content is regarded "too difficult" to solo by some players. As of now group/vet dungeons are they only things that require groups (based on current builds) to complete on level, thus it is the only content that should have a higher metric of XP.

I disagree. Its not like it has to be "this grants low XP" vs "this grants high XP". You can easily have "this grants medium XP". Or even 5 "grades" of XP. Or 10. Or whatever.

Its simply a fact that World Bosses are point blank harder than "generic mobs in a field", and so defeating a world boss should always grant more XP than a generic mob encounter. The same is absolutely true for group dungeons. The sheer size of the encounter groups (5-10 mobs per group) makes them De Facto harder than "generic mobs in a field" and thus should grant more XP.

I_killed_Vivec · January 2015

pppontus wrote: »

I already know their reasoning, they don't want people to grind CP. What they fail to understand is that Veteran Ranks are still here, and will be, for a long while.

What I (and many others) are trying to explain to them is that they are going to lose > hundreds/thousands subs from now to whatever date they choose to remove VRs, if they don't provide a way of leveling skills/ranks for people who do not enjoy spending hundreds of hours on it.

However...

I'm sure they realize all this.

We ALL know that Vet Ranks are still here and will be for a long time. ZOS will have a better idea than anyone when 1.7 will come in - I personally think the timing is to get everything sorted out for a console release by Christmas

And you don't have to explain to them how many people might leave - they know better than you and yet they still said they were going to make these changes.

Obviously they don't think that grinders are all that important to the game - compared to their reasons for bringing XP derived from grinding to a level with questing and PvP.

pppontus · January 2015

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

Or just not nerf it in the first place?

I don't get what the purpose would be of taking one away only to create a new one.

Then again I also don't get the point of taking them away. It's silly. It's like they're saying "NO! Don't get XP that way, I want you to either get it THIS way or get it very slowly!"

Except your "very slowly" means "at the same speed as someone who's leveling through questing/any-other-means-besides-exploiting". They aren't nerfing anything. They're balancing the XP gain so that grinding isn't the most attractive option anymore. It's now even with everything else.

How dare you point out facts!?
----
I love it how people are exploiting multiple higher-than-intended xp gain spots, then they get caught, then they cry about it and rage on the forums.

Why the f*** does it matter to you how fast I level? Since we will never compete anyway which is what I enjoy doing, how could it possibly matter to you?

The only reason is because you're one of those people running around reporting people for grinding. Is it because you can't stand that other people have another idea of fun than you? Is it because you secretly want to be competetive but for some reason can't? I just don't f***ing get it.

No one ever asked for them to do anything to screw the questing crowd, and here the questing crowd is making their usual appearance cheering on any changes that mess things up for the hardcore. Every damn time, it's like you people want F2P.

That's a nice amount of assumptions there. I actually haven't reported anyone except the botters that were everywhere early on or the kids who post typical racial/soci-politcal nonsense in zone chat.

And when did I ever say I want F2P? I'm done if this goes F2P....unless you mean, if you actually have to do content in this game, then you might leave and you assume you are important and actually matter and that somehow, with you leaving the game fails...? Is that it?

But thanks for the laughs, all the LOL tags shall be yours for the taking.

Hehe, just as predicted I did not get an answer to the question.

Yes, because I choose to do challenging content instead of murdering my brain by fetching flowers for NPCs I now "don't do content". What was that about assumptions?

Thanks by the way, I need the LOLs for my 5th star.

If you think an MMO can sustain itself by people doing solo questing, you're in for one hell of a surprise.

"Challenging," you might want to look up the term.

Also, so you assume that all quests are the collect XYZ? Haha you haven't even played the actual game have you?

pppontus wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Obviously that's your view of it, because you're one of those people and most likely the people on your friendslist are the same

It isn't me who is saying that grinding XP needs to be brought into line with questing XP or PvP XP.

I do not care how quickly anyone gains XP, or whether you grind, quest or PvP.

It is the view of ZOS.

They are the ones who know the numbers, they are the ones making the decisions. And even if they won't tell us what they are I'm sure they have their reasons (probably something to do with "balance").

I already know their reasoning, they don't want people to grind CP. What they fail to understand is that Veteran Ranks are still here, and will be, for a long while.

What I (and many others) are trying to explain to them is that they are going to lose > hundreds/thousands subs from now to whatever date they choose to remove VRs, if they don't provide a way of leveling skills/ranks for people who do not enjoy spending hundreds of hours on it.

HAHAHAHAHA

You should try comedy as a side job.

Hm, trolls are weak to fire. Any DKs around?

Pretty sure I know what challenging means, I've faced every single piece of challenging content in this game. Everything from competing for Emp on Thornblade to SO and Vet Arena.

I don't care whether I need to enter some kings mind and kill a bunch of skeletons, to face a boss who dies in 3 hits.. or pick flowers. I did quest for a bit, until I realised I was invincible and it was so insanely boring.

I do tell some pretty awesome jokes. Sadly that wasn't one.

pppontus · January 2015

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

and XP gains should be created on a Risk v Reward system - you SHOULD be able to gain more XP faster if its hard to do, and less XP for things easier to do. Then, let the players play.

Which is why group/vet dungeons should be the superior way to level, as they require coordination and other people to be present. Grinding and questing XP should be normalized to equal XP per hour because both methods, even grinding/questing in public dungeons, are quite easy/soloable.

You left out:

World bosses should go back to much higher XP since they "require" groups.
Public Dungeons (not Delves, which are soloable) should also grant higher XP since they "require" groups.

* "require" is in quotes because some people can solo some world bosses and some public dungeon content.

Some solo content is regarded "too difficult" to solo by some players. As of now group/vet dungeons are they only things that require groups (based on current builds) to complete on level, thus it is the only content that should have a higher metric of XP.

I disagree. Its not like it has to be "this grants low XP" vs "this grants high XP". You can easily have "this grants medium XP". Or even 5 "grades" of XP. Or 10. Or whatever.

Its simply a fact that World Bosses are point blank harder than "generic mobs in a field", and so defeating a world boss should always grant more XP than a generic mob encounter. The same is absolutely true for group dungeons. The sheer size of the encounter groups (5-10 mobs per group) makes them De Facto harder than "generic mobs in a field" and thus should grant more XP.

I'd love that. World bosses and public dungeons are a joke to solo anyway. ^^

BBSooner · January 2015

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

and XP gains should be created on a Risk v Reward system - you SHOULD be able to gain more XP faster if its hard to do, and less XP for things easier to do. Then, let the players play.

Which is why group/vet dungeons should be the superior way to level, as they require coordination and other people to be present. Grinding and questing XP should be normalized to equal XP per hour because both methods, even grinding/questing in public dungeons, are quite easy/soloable.

You left out:

World bosses should go back to much higher XP since they "require" groups.
Public Dungeons (not Delves, which are soloable) should also grant higher XP since they "require" groups.

* "require" is in quotes because some people can solo some world bosses and some public dungeon content.

Some solo content is regarded "too difficult" to solo by some players. As of now group/vet dungeons are they only things that require groups (based on current builds) to complete on level, thus it is the only content that should have a higher metric of XP.

I disagree. Its not like it has to be "this grants low XP" vs "this grants high XP". You can easily have "this grants medium XP". Or even 5 "grades" of XP. Or 10. Or whatever.

Its simply a fact that World Bosses are point blank harder than "generic mobs in a field", and so defeating a world boss should always grant more XP than a generic mob encounter. The same is absolutely true for group dungeons. The sheer size of the encounter groups (5-10 mobs per group) makes them De Facto harder than "generic mobs in a field" and thus should grant more XP.

I agree, rereading my post it is my fault for making my thought too condensed, even I disagree when I reread.

I was speaking to general XP per hour - in regards to grinding X mobs vs questing on the landscape. It is my opinion that they should have normalized gains because the of the aforementioned lack of difficulty. Though individually world bosses and anchors should yield more (or indeed a burst) of XP because of their rarity, slightly increased difficulty, respawn timers, etc they should still be a part of the normalized level gains of "landscape leveling" as a large portion of the playerbase can complete 100% of this content by themselves.

Whereas dungeons in the other hand at the very least require other bodies to complete regardless of the person (again based on current builds). This naturally speaks to the difference in individual difficulty, and should be regarded on a higher XP per hour metric than landscape leveling.

Zershar_Vemod · January 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

Or just not nerf it in the first place?

I don't get what the purpose would be of taking one away only to create a new one.

Then again I also don't get the point of taking them away. It's silly. It's like they're saying "NO! Don't get XP that way, I want you to either get it THIS way or get it very slowly!"

Except your "very slowly" means "at the same speed as someone who's leveling through questing/any-other-means-besides-exploiting". They aren't nerfing anything. They're balancing the XP gain so that grinding isn't the most attractive option anymore. It's now even with everything else.

How dare you point out facts!?
----
I love it how people are exploiting multiple higher-than-intended xp gain spots, then they get caught, then they cry about it and rage on the forums.

Why the f*** does it matter to you how fast I level? Since we will never compete anyway which is what I enjoy doing, how could it possibly matter to you?

The only reason is because you're one of those people running around reporting people for grinding. Is it because you can't stand that other people have another idea of fun than you? Is it because you secretly want to be competetive but for some reason can't? I just don't f***ing get it.

No one ever asked for them to do anything to screw the questing crowd, and here the questing crowd is making their usual appearance cheering on any changes that mess things up for the hardcore. Every damn time, it's like you people want F2P.

That's a nice amount of assumptions there. I actually haven't reported anyone except the botters that were everywhere early on or the kids who post typical racial/soci-politcal nonsense in zone chat.

And when did I ever say I want F2P? I'm done if this goes F2P....unless you mean, if you actually have to do content in this game, then you might leave and you assume you are important and actually matter and that somehow, with you leaving the game fails...? Is that it?

But thanks for the laughs, all the LOL tags shall be yours for the taking.

Hehe, just as predicted I did not get an answer to the question.

Yes, because I choose to do challenging content instead of murdering my brain by fetching flowers for NPCs I now "don't do content". What was that about assumptions?

Thanks by the way, I need the LOLs for my 5th star.

If you think an MMO can sustain itself by people doing solo questing, you're in for one hell of a surprise.

"Challenging," you might want to look up the term.

Also, so you assume that all quests are the collect XYZ? Haha you haven't even played the actual game have you?

pppontus wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Obviously that's your view of it, because you're one of those people and most likely the people on your friendslist are the same

It isn't me who is saying that grinding XP needs to be brought into line with questing XP or PvP XP.

I do not care how quickly anyone gains XP, or whether you grind, quest or PvP.

It is the view of ZOS.

They are the ones who know the numbers, they are the ones making the decisions. And even if they won't tell us what they are I'm sure they have their reasons (probably something to do with "balance").

I already know their reasoning, they don't want people to grind CP. What they fail to understand is that Veteran Ranks are still here, and will be, for a long while.

What I (and many others) are trying to explain to them is that they are going to lose > hundreds/thousands subs from now to whatever date they choose to remove VRs, if they don't provide a way of leveling skills/ranks for people who do not enjoy spending hundreds of hours on it.

HAHAHAHAHA

You should try comedy as a side job.

Hm, trolls are weak to fire. Any DKs around?

Pretty sure I know what challenging means, I've faced every single piece of challenging content in this game. Everything from competing for Emp on Thornblade to SO and Vet Arena.

I don't care whether I need to enter some kings mind and kill a bunch of skeletons, to face a boss who dies in 3 hits.. or pick flowers. I did quest for a bit, until I realised I was invincible and it was so insanely boring.

I do tell some pretty awesome jokes. Sadly that wasn't one.

Oh, I think otherwise.