Dear Zenimax: We don't all want to quest, we want to Play as We Want.

Derra · January 2015

I guess you have not played as many mmos as you have claimed. You would know better in regards of questing from level 1 to max on rails was something a game that shall not be named has established in the world of mmos.
Believe it or not.

Edit: Most people i started this game with grinded even on their first character. So it seems to me questing is indeed not the default way to play the game. Again please try to not devalue other approaches just they don´t match your personal point of view. It is a matter of perspective.

Edit2: I could make up a real nice analogy involving religious beliefs but that is something i´d rather not touch

Zershar_Vemod · January 2015

Derra wrote: »

I guess you have not played as many mmos as you have claimed. You would know better in regards of questing from level 1 to max on rails was something a game that shall not be named has established in the world of mmos.
Believe it or not.

Edit: Most people i started this game with grinded even on their first character. So it seems to me questing is indeed not the default way to play the game. Again please try to not devalue other approaches just they don´t match your personal point of view. It is a matter of perspective.

Edit2: I could make up a real nice analogy involving religios beliefs but that is something i´d rather not touch

Good for them then? Guess they were the main focus of the playerbase. Everyone I've played with do quests mainly and Cyrodiil. So..what's your point exactly?

Also, yup, thanks for confirming that you are mad. Let the hate flow thru you and so forth.

Going to assume you are talking about that cancerous entity that is WoW. Thanks for assuming that anyone who doesn't tend to deviate from the standard leveling practices is some WoW player.

But please, continue - it's entertaining.

trimsic_ESO · January 2015

Derra wrote: »

I guess you have not played as many mmos as you have claimed. You would know better in regards of questing from level 1 to max on rails was something a game that shall not be named has established in the world of mmos.
Believe it or not.

Edit: Most people i started this game with grinded even on their first character. So it seems to me questing is indeed not the default way to play the game. Again please try to not devalue other approaches just they don´t match your personal point of view. It is a matter of perspective.

Edit2: I could make up a real nice analogy involving religious beliefs but that is something i´d rather not touch

But the champion system is not yet another new VR. Yes, you can grind XP to level up quickly your VR if you want to. But trying to grind CP to reach quickly the new champion system cap is against what the champion system is meant for, in my opinion.

IMHO, the champion system is a mean to provide the players with a continuous and smooth progression system so they are rewarded while playing ESO. The only source of CP in such a system should be the activities you normally do when playing ESO once you are VR14, i.e. Cyrodiiil for the PVP fans, completing dungeons for the PVE fans, or completing daily quests for both.

Implementing the champion system another way will kill the game.

Morthur · January 2015

.

Iago · January 2015

Morthur wrote: »

Questing in ESO is mind-numbingly boring, shallow, unimaginative... in a word: crap.

But just ask the fanbois... you can play the game exactly how you want as long as the way you want is grinding 5000 FedEx and kill X of Y quests.

I agree, questing in eso lacks a lot of the depth that quest had in prior Elder Scrolls games.
having played through all three factions I know firsthand how repetitive the quests start to seem.

hopefully in the future they will be able to remedy this. I do however think they should focus on fixing what's broken before taking on such a task.

Derra · January 2015

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I guess you have not played as many mmos as you have claimed. You would know better in regards of questing from level 1 to max on rails was something a game that shall not be named has established in the world of mmos.
Believe it or not.

Edit: Most people i started this game with grinded even on their first character. So it seems to me questing is indeed not the default way to play the game. Again please try to not devalue other approaches just they don´t match your personal point of view. It is a matter of perspective.

Edit2: I could make up a real nice analogy involving religios beliefs but that is something i´d rather not touch

Good for them then? Guess they were the main focus of the playerbase. Everyone I've played with do quests mainly and Cyrodiil. So..what's your point exactly?

Also, yup, thanks for confirming that you are mad. Let the hate flow thru you and so forth.

Going to assume you are talking about that cancerous entity that is WoW. Thanks for assuming that anyone who doesn't tend to deviate from the standard leveling practices is some WoW player.

But please, continue - it's entertaining.

My point is that you assume because you and your ingame social peers used a certain way to level up you persume that way as the only rightful and intend way (My experiences in that regard are different and therefor my perceivend intended leveling experience does not match yours).
I don´t know what to say any further. By claiming i was hateful just because i beg to differ from your opinion (of course the only true and right one) you have made pretty clear that your intentions in this thread are not of constructive nature.
Again please think about it: just because you claim something to be a standard it will not be. You can´t force your personal opinion on other people and it is a rather extreme view to have.

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I guess you have not played as many mmos as you have claimed. You would know better in regards of questing from level 1 to max on rails was something a game that shall not be named has established in the world of mmos.
Believe it or not.

Edit: Most people i started this game with grinded even on their first character. So it seems to me questing is indeed not the default way to play the game. Again please try to not devalue other approaches just they don´t match your personal point of view. It is a matter of perspective.

Edit2: I could make up a real nice analogy involving religious beliefs but that is something i´d rather not touch

But the champion system is not yet another new VR. Yes, you can grind XP to level up quickly your VR if you want to. But trying to grind CP to reach quickly the new champion system cap is against what the champion system is meant for, in my opinion.

IMHO, the champion system is a mean to provide the players with a continuous and smooth progression system so they are rewarded while playing ESO. The only source of CP in such a system should be the activities you normally do when playing ESO once you are VR14, i.e. Cyrodiiil for the PVP fans, completing dungeons for the PVE fans, or completing daily quests for both.

Implementing the champion system another way will kill the game.

Where was i talking about the champion system? People are complaining that the game does not offer them an alternative to questing the normal veteran levels that are here to stay for atleast patch 1.7 so till mid of april if we´re really generous.
I don´t understand where you´re coming from. Care to elaborate?

AlayneStone · January 2015

I wouldn't mind questing if you actually got decent items from it.

Iago · January 2015

gingerkid1991b16_ESO wrote: »

I wouldn't mind questing if you actually got decent items from it.

See I'm kind of the opposite. The only reason I quest is for the story. I think you're right though better quest rewards would encourage more people to do the quests. and that would actually help populate the almost completely vacant gold and silver areas.

TheShadowScout · January 2015

I quest for fun and story as well.

But I have to agree, the silver/gold quest rewards are not really all that exciting. Not compared to what people at those levels usually like to walk around in, stuff they get for AP from PvP, drops from doing all the dungeon runs, or buy in some guild store... thus most of the veteran quest rewards end up as "eh, another thing to sell/deconstruct".

It would be nicer if the silver/gold rewards maybe had a chance to drop a better version... say, 60% the usual green drop, 30% a blue version of same, 10% a purple... perhaps with a increaded betterment chance for cadwells gold quests? Just a thought...

TehMagnus · January 2015

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Yay, my first big argument with someone...

TehMagnus wrote: »

It's a fact that many people don't care about questing in MMORPGs, especially once they've allready done all the quest. As for playing a different kind of game, we're, once again, playing an MMORPG, where leveling to max is just a way to learn the mechanics and L2P your char before getting to the content that matters. It's people who play the MMOs just for the questing who are playing a different kind of game since once they finish the quests, they got nothing left to do till more quests are added which takes long long long months.

MMORPG... you keep using that term too, I don't think it means what you think it means
Seriously though, "Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game" differs from other online games by all the roles being played. And quests are a part of role playing games since, well, the beginning of role playing games. In fact, grinding only came into it when GMs were replaced by computers, because no GM would put up with that kind of sh... thing
As for questing... well, you have it right part of it is the L2P. And once the questlovers like me finish every quest... some go exploring, some go PvPing, some go hunting achievements, some even go roleplaying... I know, I know, something frowned upon by a certain kind of players. How dare I pretend to be an seaky and stabhappy dunmer bounty huntress, or a goth dunmer librarian warlock? How dare I talk to someone in the game who pretends to be a nature-loving ashlander witch? How dare I not PvP or run dungeons and pretend to drink mead with the nords instead? Well, that's my fun, You go have your fun. Just saying, you wanting your fun quicker then the ones who quest just because they have it is not exactly fair.

Technically, since my fun begins at max level, and yours begins at level one, it's only fair to be able to advance quickly through content we don't enjoy (and it's not easy nor enjoyable to grind either), just in order to get to the part of the game that matters to us and no, grinding didn't come later, it was allways there and allways has been used by people who don't enjoy the quests. As for RPers I don't think people frown upon them, they just frown when RPers ask for (according to some people "useless") things that they enjoy to be implemented in the game, like capes

.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Once again, still a fact that many people don't care about questing and I suppose you should go see an ENT specialist if you're hearing we want the same stuff others play weeks to earn for cheap, grinding is tedious, it's repetitive, it's boring, but if you gots to be bored, might as well spend less time at it as possible, which is why people rather grind than quest. Moreover, nobody is forcing you to grind so if you rather quest than grind to "get the same stuff", then that's your problem buddy. Regarding pvp that's utter bull, before getting to max level you're just food for the people at max level, they'll just destroy you on sight, and leveling in PVP is 10x longer than questing or grinding. Moreover, most of the people that only PVP and are at max level grinded like crazy to get there, so now you're saying that new people will have to spend 280h leveling up to catch up to people who grinded the levels in 24h?

You are saying, people should be able to play as they wish, but your way of playing should get you in 24 hours what others play their way for 280 hours just because you don't care about questing? Doesn't seem like you want equality to me... seems like you want things cheaper your way, as I said. Okay, so grinding IS boring, thats why I can't stand doing it. And it certainly doesn't get you all you can pick up questing, true. But still, worth eight or so times faster XP gain? Which is what you seem to want? I disagree on that one.

And yes, before max level you are food for the PKers. I know. I was. I still often am, since I am not that good at PvP... but I am a bit better then I was. Not complaining, I expect to get wasted in short order when I go into Cyrodil. But I have some successes too, now. Ah, the trials and tribulations of L2P, huh?

It's not 24h and I don't see what the problem is, if you enjoy all those 280h why complain that "others are getting stuff faster"? If you want stuff faster, get it faster. If you want to spend 280h of generic questing, then enjoy your 280h. Just don't force people who want to throw up when ever they see yet an other "go to point B" quest to endure 280h of your content seems like you want people to play your way instead of doing what they enjoy the most? Doesn't seem like you want equality of enjoyment to me. We want to level faster to get to the content we enjoy while you enjoy the game since the begining.

In any case, let's be honest for a second. People who enjoy questing, who read everything, who haven't even finished all the quest at this point will never be competitive in an MMORPG, especially if they keep at the same pace, because they're just too far behind. So there is no competition, if there is no competiton, then there is no "getting things faster than others" it's just, "get to the content that matters to you."

TheShadowScout wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

End game content is not something I should skip the game for? I'm sorry for having played dozens of generic MMOs like this one and I don't find it interesting to waste time on useless repetitive quests with no flavor and most of all no lasting impact on the world which makes them all feel useless. In any case, it's not for you nor anyone to tell me how I should play a game, especially when it was advertised as a "Play as you want" game.

Yeah, I got that you don't give two tugs of a dead dogs *** for the content the desingers worked for. Might make me wonder why you play a MMORPG in the first place and not some "jump into the action" online shooter if I cared...
But you are right it is not my place to tell you how to play the game your way. Just saying, you should not tell everyone your way ought to be much faster for you then the "standard" way for everyone not playing your way, and complain when they nerf it back to approaching equality...

Well I might just ask you then: why are you playing a MMORPG? If all you like is solo questing, you might as well play a solo RPG game. Many of us come to online massively multiplayer games to: "Play with people". Solo questing is not playing with people. If I want to solo quest there are hundred of thousands of solo games 100x better than this one to pick out there. There is no equality in forcing people to play content they don't want to play to advance, and there is not even a comparison since questers and people rushing to end game will never be competing in the first place. Moreover, it's not an advantage, you can also grind if you want to go to end game faster. If you choose not to take the shortcut: that's your problem.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Who cares about skyshards books hunting, that's beyond the point since it only takes a day to get them all and you don't need main story skillpoints to build a competitive alt.

...naturally, I love skyshards and book hunting. Especially since I never got any of those addons that help, but do it the hard way... just my kinda fun I guess, exploring the landscape, picking up this or that, following the journal hints and enjoying feeling smart when I find a skyshard that way... but that's me... to each their own.

And that's fine, I couldn't care less what you do with your time and I don't see why you care if people are doing trials with max leveled characters while you're having fun at your thing.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

...Forcing them to quest to get to VR14 until 1.7 kicks in defeats the purpose of removing the VR which was to not force people to waste time grinding or leveling through them. If they want to PVP and be competitive, if they want to clear dungeons like COH or COA or even partake in trials or DSA, they will, in fact be forced to quest to get to max level. It's not about sympathy, it's about fairness, it's about telling people that it's too bad they weren't quick enough or dedicated enough to enjoy the benefits of grinding (which have been going on for months before ZOS changed their mind) and that now they are forced to go the long way to get the same stuff people got quickly.

I can agree with you in the thought that the game will be better with vet ranks gone and champion system in their place, the sooner the better, allowing people to go whereever they want after getting through the story. And I would think that gains should be roughly equal between questing, PvP, and grinding.
Not that grinding should get a huge advantage though.

And eh, when the developers change something like one way of playing having such an an obviously unintended advantage to keep things fair, I kinda see it silly to cry about it. Its like saying, every fault in the game people can exploit must be made available for everyone who wasn't quick enough to take advantage of it...

It's not unintended, have you even played other MMORPGS before TESO? Download Lineage 2, download Aion, download any MMORPG, you'll see grinding is most of times necessary to advance and is always much faster than questing and it's not an exploit to run around killing mobs, exploit is clicking super fast your items to duplicate them like people did at game start. The fairness argument is bull ***. Everybody can grind, everybody can quest, if you choose to solo quest in a multiplayer game then that's your business.

I suppose you're a Skyrim fan that wants to solo quest here while waiting for the next TES, that's fine by me, just don't ask that people who aren't playing for the same reasons as you should to be forced to play like you do.

xarguideb17_ESO · January 2015

Me too, sick and tired of questing. I have one vr 14 and one vr 6. I have done all the quests in the 3 alliances and most of them more than once. I don't want to quest any more. Was thinking of grinding the other classes, that I have not yet tried out, to maxlevel too, but I guess that's complicated now.

Derra · January 2015

@TehMagnus uses: Voice of reason.

For the near future I predict:

It failed.

Haxnschwammer · January 2015

Why not play at PTS?
You know there is no grindind neccesary, you log in, click on new char and get one at max level. Even gear is included! You can play that mystical Endgame there all day without having to deal with questers of PvPers.
Of course you can't show off with your meaguber gear, DPS scores or whatever... But I'm suuuure nobody has such an intention....

TehMagnus · January 2015

Haxnschwammer wrote: »

Why not play at PTS?
You know there is no grindind neccesary, you log in, click on new char and get one at max level. Even gear is included! You can play that mystical Endgame there all day without having to deal with questers of PvPers.
Of course you can't show off with your meaguber gear, DPS scores or whatever... But I'm suuuure nobody has such an intention....

Why not quest on PTS then? You can play as you want, nobody will come and kill your dwelves in a few secs or break your "immersion". And you can level a char from 1 to VR14 easily! You won't feel the need either to impede other players of having fun because the meanies are leveling faster than you.

Best part of it is, that when they remove all the characters and everything because they make an import from main server, you get to start again from the beginning, just doing the same boring content over and over again and ofc you won't see them Elitist meanies showing off their gear and thus you won't dwell in jealousy.

Valencer · January 2015

Morthur wrote: »

Questing in ESO is mind-numbingly boring, shallow, unimaginative... in a word: crap.

But just ask the fanbois... you can play the game exactly how you want as long as the way you want is grinding 5000 FedEx and kill X of Y quests.

The quests are as fun as you want them to be.

I see this firsthand in Craglorn:
I have a small group of friends I sometimes do Craglorn quests with. We all like to take our time, enjoy the story and just have a good time. Whenever I play with them, I really get to see the detail that has been put into these quests and get to fully appreciate it. There's always a nice mix of story and action.
And quite frankly, ESO has excellent story driven content. Much more so than other MMOs I've played.

On the other hand, I've played with Craglorn quest PUGs now and then and it's generally horrible. Guys sprint ahead to the next delve and tell you you have to teleport to them to save time. One group member is constantly spamming Retreating Maneuvers on the entire group so we move more quickly from quest marker to quest marker while Impulse-spamming groups of mobs. When you play quests like that, you might as well be grinding.

That's just my impression of how you can make it more fun for yourself. If you don't want to put in the time to fully enjoy quests, then grinding might indeed be the better option, and that's fine.
But I'm still not convinced grinding should give you a much greater amount of XP in the same amount of time. Like it or not, ESO has a heavy emphasis on story driven content and people who choose to play that content should not be disadvantaged.
The reward point is a good one, but I do question how much it justifies a greater amount of XP. Mobs do drop loot as far as I know and you're killing a lot of them. Grinding is generally done in PvE zones and those have lots of skyshards for skillpoints. And fetching skyshards is not a quest-exclusive thing.

Regarding replayability: I will admit this might be subjective, but I think I've done about 20 playthroughs of the Mass Effect games and at least 10 playthroughs of Oblivion and Skyrim. To me, it's like re-reading a good book multiple times. Except that it's an interactive book where you can select which parts you want to read when and sometimes have an actual effect on the outcome of chapters.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · January 2015

All I hear is "Boohoo I want all the rewards but I am willing to put forth no effort!". If you dont like questing why on earth are you playing a game where 99% of it is questing?

Derra · January 2015

Valencer wrote: »

Morthur wrote: »

Questing in ESO is mind-numbingly boring, shallow, unimaginative... in a word: crap.

But just ask the fanbois... you can play the game exactly how you want as long as the way you want is grinding 5000 FedEx and kill X of Y quests.

The quests are as fun as you want them to be.

I see this firsthand in Craglorn:
I have a small group of friends I sometimes do Craglorn quests with. We all like to take our time, enjoy the story and just have a good time. Whenever I play with them, I really get to see the detail that has been put into these quests and get to fully appreciate it. There's always a nice mix of story and action.
And quite frankly, ESO has excellent story driven content. Much more so than other MMOs I've played.

I have to disagree with that statement. Eso had very few memorable moments for me.
On the opposite: Even though SW:TOR was widely not so well received, i can still remember most the Story lines and even some of the normal Quests. For me their story writing and quest design is unmatched in the world of themepark mmos.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · January 2015

Derra wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Morthur wrote: »

Questing in ESO is mind-numbingly boring, shallow, unimaginative... in a word: crap.

But just ask the fanbois... you can play the game exactly how you want as long as the way you want is grinding 5000 FedEx and kill X of Y quests.

The quests are as fun as you want them to be.

I see this firsthand in Craglorn:
I have a small group of friends I sometimes do Craglorn quests with. We all like to take our time, enjoy the story and just have a good time. Whenever I play with them, I really get to see the detail that has been put into these quests and get to fully appreciate it. There's always a nice mix of story and action.
And quite frankly, ESO has excellent story driven content. Much more so than other MMOs I've played.

I have to disagree with that statement. Eso had very few memorable moments for me.
On the opposite: Even though SW:TOR was widely not so well received, i can still remember most the Story lines and even some of the normal Quests. For me their story writing and quest design is unmatched in the world of themepark mmos.

I love the questing. I was very happy to be able to do the other faction quests on my regular character rather than having to roll a bunch of alts to experience it. I dont want to speak for everyone but there are according to reports 1.2 million people playing this game at the moment. Seems like a very very very small minority on here complaining in comparison.

Derra · January 2015

I´ve done all the quests too. I´ve really enjoyed the whole run. Its just that i personally don´t enjoy to replay everything. Which is what i would have to do in order to level a different character.

Maybe thats why i liked sw:tor so much in that regard. It gave you a whole new main plot to play through when you started another class.

xarguideb17_ESO · January 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Morthur wrote: »

Questing in ESO is mind-numbingly boring, shallow, unimaginative... in a word: crap.

But just ask the fanbois... you can play the game exactly how you want as long as the way you want is grinding 5000 FedEx and kill X of Y quests.

The quests are as fun as you want them to be.

I see this firsthand in Craglorn:
I have a small group of friends I sometimes do Craglorn quests with. We all like to take our time, enjoy the story and just have a good time. Whenever I play with them, I really get to see the detail that has been put into these quests and get to fully appreciate it. There's always a nice mix of story and action.
And quite frankly, ESO has excellent story driven content. Much more so than other MMOs I've played.

I have to disagree with that statement. Eso had very few memorable moments for me.
On the opposite: Even though SW:TOR was widely not so well received, i can still remember most the Story lines and even some of the normal Quests. For me their story writing and quest design is unmatched in the world of themepark mmos.

I love the questing. I was very happy to be able to do the other faction quests on my regular character rather than having to roll a bunch of alts to experience it. I dont want to speak for everyone but there are according to reports 1.2 million people playing this game at the moment. Seems like a very very very small minority on here complaining in comparison.

You can't just pull a number out of wikipedia that has no source.
All we know for sure: "The game had 772,000 subscribers in June 2014 according to SuperData Research."
I would rather guess that this number has dwindled.
There is no other certain indication to the number of subscribers.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

TheShadowScout · January 2015

TehMagnus wrote: »

Technically, since my fun begins at max level, and yours begins at level one, it's only fair to be able to advance quickly through content we don't enjoy (and it's not easy nor enjoyable to grind either), just in order to get to the part of the game that matters to us and no, grinding didn't come later, it was allways there and allways has been used by people who don't enjoy the quests.

You do realize I have been talking about Pen&Paper roleplaying games in the times before they made the jump to electronic format, right? Or maybe not... if you think grinding was something a gamemaster would put up with from their players.

TehMagnus wrote: »

It's not 24h and I don't see what the problem is, if you enjoy all those 280h why complain that "others are getting stuff faster"? If you want stuff faster, get it faster. If you want to spend 280h of generic questing, then enjoy your 280h. Just don't force people who want to throw up when ever they see yet an other "go to point B" quest to endure 280h of your content seems like you want people to play your way instead of doing what they enjoy the most? Doesn't seem like you want equality of enjoyment to me. We want to level faster to get to the content we enjoy while you enjoy the game since the begining.

The 24 hgours were your words, I just carried them along. Having no grinding expertise I can hardly make any judgements as to how much grinding gets a character how much levelling...

And you still say you want things cheaper the grinding way because you don't enjoy working for it the questing way, and want a shortcut to the stuff you do enjoy.. Only you make some shaky argument that is should be fair because you like only the endgame content, and others enjoy -all- of ithe work the developers put into the game.
And your original argument was a complaint about how the people in charge of the game "nerf" your grinding until it isn't much faster anymore.
That's like saying I should get paid without having to work for it because I don't enjoy work. Which may be fine for daydreams, but not exactly fair to those who work methinks...

TehMagnus wrote: »

In any case, let's be honest for a second. People who enjoy questing, who read everything, who haven't even finished all the quest at this point will never be competitive in an MMORPG, especially if they keep at the same pace, because they're just too far behind. So there is no competition, if there is no competiton, then there is no "getting things faster than others" it's just, "get to the content that matters to you."

That one I can agree with, taking it slow to smell the flowers and listen to all the conversations will never be as fast as those who race through the game.
However... that means, the developers will be catering their game to those who pay for the bigger chunk of gametime, right? So, why do you want them to give you your shortcut when it looses them money?

TehMagnus wrote: »

Well I might just ask you then: why are you playing a MMORPG? If all you like is solo questing, you might as well play a solo RPG game. Many of us come to online massively multiplayer games to: "Play with people". Solo questing is not playing with people. If I want to solo quest there are hundred of thousands of solo games 100x better than this one to pick out there. There is no equality in forcing people to play content they don't want to play to advance, and there is not even a comparison since questers and people rushing to end game will never be competing in the first place. Moreover, it's not an advantage, you can also grind if you want to go to end game faster. If you choose not to take the shortcut: that's your problem.

Roleplaying is a little bit unrewarding when done in solo games... for me, the solo questing is not the main thing, I just enjoy that too. I also enjoy a lot of other things, both PvP (even when I loose a lot, as long as I also win a bit) and dungeons (whith some people)... I admit I have troubles with random groupings, but that's my problem. You can make discourteous remarks about my sociophobia now if you want, most do.
I enjoy playing with some people though, and that's why I am here, to find the rare ones I do like wandering through the game with. But again, that's me, each came here for their own reasons. I just don't think that any reason should be given special priviledges... "play as you want" sure, but each being roughly equal. So... if you want to make an argument that PvP should bring similar rewards to quests (which I hear it doesn't right now) I'd be with you on that.

TehMagnus wrote: »

It's not unintended, have you even played other MMORPGS before TESO? Download Lineage 2, download Aion, download any MMORPG, you'll see grinding is most of times necessary to advance and is always much faster than questing and it's not an exploit to run around killing mobs, exploit is clicking super fast your items to duplicate them like people did at game start. The fairness argument is bull ***. Everybody can grind, everybody can quest, if you choose to solo quest in a multiplayer game then that's your business.

The developers make their money through people paying for time they play. If someone takes a shortcut, then that lessens their income. Thus shortcuts in general are unintentional - as proven when they remove them once they notice people are taking them. Which as it happens, is what happened, right?
Some games have a lot of grinding, true, but usually because the developers did not include enough content, and instead rely on people repeating the same old all over after a few days of playing. Thank Azura ESO is not one of those... and thanks for telling me a few MMOs I should avoid...

As for the everyone can do everything... true. But we are not talking about every playstyle being equal here (which I would fully support), you are talking for grinding to be much faster, and I am talking against it... fairness would be each similar effort getting similar rewards, that way no playstyle would have an advantage over others.

TehMagnus wrote: »

I suppose you're a Skyrim fan that wants to solo quest here while waiting for the next TES, that's fine by me, just don't ask that people who aren't playing for the same reasons as you should to be forced to play like you do.

Morrowind fan, actually. Daggerfall wasn't so great, but morrowind had a nifty story and design, for its day. But the gist is right, I came here lured by the story, not the game.

TequilaFire · January 2015

If they had never used the MMO designation on this game half of the arguments
in threads like these would be invalid.

It gets tiresome always hearing this game is an MMO, that is how an MMO is played, or this is how it was in MMO xyz as a defense for points.

ESO set out to be something different. I don't know if they succeeded or not, time will tell but we should be glad that it is not like every other MMO out there.

That being said, I do agree somewhat with the OP in that nerfing of some of the grind spots was not a good move as sometimes you need them for that little bit
extra xp you need to bump to the next level.
But the exploitable areas that gave ridiculous gains did need fixing.

Not to mention you should be able to "play as you want" within reason.

TheShadowScout · January 2015

TequilaFire wrote: »

...as sometimes you need them for that little bit
extra xp you need to bump to the next level.

I agree with that thought. But then, I always did the dailies in Cyrodil when I needed a handful of expees...

PBpsy · January 2015

TequilaFire wrote: »

If they had never used the MMO designation on this game half of the arguments
\.

If they hadn't used the MMO designation nobody would have payed $15 a month sub. They used it though so they have to deliver.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · January 2015

xarguideb17_ESO wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Morthur wrote: »

Questing in ESO is mind-numbingly boring, shallow, unimaginative... in a word: crap.

But just ask the fanbois... you can play the game exactly how you want as long as the way you want is grinding 5000 FedEx and kill X of Y quests.

The quests are as fun as you want them to be.

I see this firsthand in Craglorn:
I have a small group of friends I sometimes do Craglorn quests with. We all like to take our time, enjoy the story and just have a good time. Whenever I play with them, I really get to see the detail that has been put into these quests and get to fully appreciate it. There's always a nice mix of story and action.
And quite frankly, ESO has excellent story driven content. Much more so than other MMOs I've played.

I have to disagree with that statement. Eso had very few memorable moments for me.
On the opposite: Even though SW:TOR was widely not so well received, i can still remember most the Story lines and even some of the normal Quests. For me their story writing and quest design is unmatched in the world of themepark mmos.

I love the questing. I was very happy to be able to do the other faction quests on my regular character rather than having to roll a bunch of alts to experience it. I dont want to speak for everyone but there are according to reports 1.2 million people playing this game at the moment. Seems like a very very very small minority on here complaining in comparison.

You can't just pull a number out of wikipedia that has no source.
All we know for sure: "The game had 772,000 subscribers in June 2014 according to SuperData Research."
I would rather guess that this number has dwindled.
There is no other certain indication to the number of subscribers.

Superdata research is who said 1.2 million subs. Might want to check more updated stories

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/137279/1-2-million-subscribers

[Moderator Note: Edited quote and response to match moderated version]

Valencer · January 2015

Derra wrote: »

I have to disagree with that statement. Eso had very few memorable moments for me.
On the opposite: Even though SW:TOR was widely not so well received, i can still remember most the Story lines and even some of the normal Quests. For me their story writing and quest design is unmatched in the world of themepark mmos.

Well, I'll take your word for it. I admit I haven't played SW:TOR yet, but it's on my to-do list.

Of course it's very subjective. ESO has given me lots of memorable moments. Not always "omg, I can't believe that happened" story moments, but almost always through the combined package of good story-driven content, a beautiful environment and a very fun combat system.

TehMagnus · January 2015

TheShadowScout wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Technically, since my fun begins at max level, and yours begins at level one, it's only fair to be able to advance quickly through content we don't enjoy (and it's not easy nor enjoyable to grind either), just in order to get to the part of the game that matters to us and no, grinding didn't come later, it was allways there and allways has been used by people who don't enjoy the quests.

You do realize I have been talking about Pen&Paper roleplaying games in the times before they made the jump to electronic format, right? Or maybe not... if you think grinding was something a gamemaster would put up with from their players.

This is not a Pen&Paper game, this an MMORPG. They have sadly nothing to do with one and other. If this was anything like a Pen & Paper game, we'd have non linear random events, an evolving main story and our actions would actually matter and that's a game I'd play for the story/quest and not for the end game.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

It's not 24h and I don't see what the problem is, if you enjoy all those 280h why complain that "others are getting stuff faster"? If you want stuff faster, get it faster. If you want to spend 280h of generic questing, then enjoy your 280h. Just don't force people who want to throw up when ever they see yet an other "go to point B" quest to endure 280h of your content seems like you want people to play your way instead of doing what they enjoy the most? Doesn't seem like you want equality of enjoyment to me. We want to level faster to get to the content we enjoy while you enjoy the game since the begining.

The 24 hgours were your words, I just carried them along. Having no grinding expertise I can hardly make any judgements as to how much grinding gets a character how much levelling...

And you still say you want things cheaper the grinding way because you don't enjoy working for it the questing way, and want a shortcut to the stuff you do enjoy.. Only you make some shaky argument that is should be fair because you like only the endgame content, and others enjoy -all- of ithe work the developers put into the game.
And your original argument was a complaint about how the people in charge of the game "nerf" your grinding until it isn't much faster anymore.
That's like saying I should get paid without having to work for it because I don't enjoy work. Which may be fine for daydreams, but not exactly fair to those who work methinks...

Well grinding is more boring, tiresome and repetitive than questing so we actually where working for it and it should (as it allways has and still does from level 1-50 reward more XP).

In any case, the working argument is meanigless and besides the point for two reasons:

- ZOS didn't nerf grinding to make you work for the levels, they nerfed it to avoid CP farming which is not the same thing. If they had wanted to nerf grinding then they'd nerf the grind from level 1-50 which is not the case. When update 7 hits, people will effectively be able to grind 20x faster than questers to max which will be level 50. My issue here is that people will be denied that grind till 1.7 hits which is going to make the part of the community that hates questing or got fed up of their main char and decided to reroll: just stop playing.

- If you enjoy questing, then you're not working for anything, you're just enjoying, levels are meaningless, only story advancement so once again, your point doesn't apply since people who grind and don't quest don't enjoy the story and actually have to work hard (gridnding) to get to the part that matters. The only had work you do is pushing the play button to begin questing. That feels unfair to me

.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

In any case, let's be honest for a second. People who enjoy questing, who read everything, who haven't even finished all the quest at this point will never be competitive in an MMORPG, especially if they keep at the same pace, because they're just too far behind. So there is no competition, if there is no competiton, then there is no "getting things faster than others" it's just, "get to the content that matters to you."

That one I can agree with, taking it slow to smell the flowers and listen to all the conversations will never be as fast as those who race through the game.
However... that means, the developers will be catering their game to those who pay for the bigger chunk of gametime, right? So, why do you want them to give you your shortcut when it looses them money?

Because no semi-hardcore to hardcore PVE or PVP player will go through a game that has such a weak engame and such bad rewards compared the effort you put in if, on top of it, he has to go through 100+ hours of the same bs questing that any other MMO has. As for loosing money it's a lie. Most of the people that are VR14, at end game, raiding or PVPing, all have months of /played in their characters and alts. So with this change they're going to be loosing custommers much faster

. And once again, this doesn't hurt questers at all so I still don't understand why you care. I'm glad that the "getting things faster than others" is out of the question anymore though.

The only thing that makes people competing at end game leave (at least of PVE side) is the lack of rewards for the effort they put in and lack of people to play with.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Well I might just ask you then: why are you playing a MMORPG? If all you like is solo questing, you might as well play a solo RPG game. Many of us come to online massively multiplayer games to: "Play with people". Solo questing is not playing with people. If I want to solo quest there are hundred of thousands of solo games 100x better than this one to pick out there. There is no equality in forcing people to play content they don't want to play to advance, and there is not even a comparison since questers and people rushing to end game will never be competing in the first place. Moreover, it's not an advantage, you can also grind if you want to go to end game faster. If you choose not to take the shortcut: that's your problem.

Roleplaying is a little bit unrewarding when done in solo games... for me, the solo questing is not the main thing, I just enjoy that too. I also enjoy a lot of other things, both PvP (even when I loose a lot, as long as I also win a bit) and dungeons (whith some people)... I admit I have troubles with random groupings, but that's my problem. You can make discourteous remarks about my sociophobia now if you want, most do.
I enjoy playing with some people though, and that's why I am here, to find the rare ones I do like wandering through the game with. But again, that's me, each came here for their own reasons. I just don't think that any reason should be given special priviledges... "play as you want" sure, but each being roughly equal. So... if you want to make an argument that PvP should bring similar rewards to quests (which I hear it doesn't right now) I'd be with you on that.

I agree! Noone should get special priviledges, then why do people who enjoy questing have the priviledge to play what they like since level 1 and people who enjoy raiding and PVP have to go through 50 levels of grinding plus 14 more levels of long tedious questing? Why are questers priviledged over raiders and PVPers? I mean, it's hard work enough to have to level up your char grinding and then grinding some more for skills to actually get to the part you enjoy and people where fine with it even if it was unfair compared to people who like questing. Thanks for making my point though. As for sociophobia, I ain't gonna make discourteous remarks, I just don't care, as you shouldn't care about people who don't want to quest and just want to get to end game and enjoy it since it doesn't affect you nor the game in a negative way.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

It's not unintended, have you even played other MMORPGS before TESO? Download Lineage 2, download Aion, download any MMORPG, you'll see grinding is most of times necessary to advance and is always much faster than questing and it's not an exploit to run around killing mobs, exploit is clicking super fast your items to duplicate them like people did at game start. The fairness argument is bull ***. Everybody can grind, everybody can quest, if you choose to solo quest in a multiplayer game then that's your business.

The developers make their money through people paying for time they play. If someone takes a shortcut, then that lessens their income. Thus shortcuts in general are unintentional - as proven when they remove them once they notice people are taking them. Which as it happens, is what happened, right?
Some games have a lot of grinding, true, but usually because the developers did not include enough content, and instead rely on people repeating the same old all over after a few days of playing. Thank Azura ESO is not one of those... and thanks for telling me a few MMOs I should avoid...

As for the everyone can do everything... true. But we are not talking about every playstyle being equal here (which I would fully support), you are talking for grinding to be much faster, and I am talking against it... fairness would be each similar effort getting similar rewards, that way no playstyle would have an advantage over others.

Read answer before. Grinding has never been unintentional since they haven't removed the grinding in levels 1-50, they just don't want CP farming. This has, once again, nothing to go with people playing less because they take shortcuts, it has everything to do with people not getting extremely ahead by just grinding when 1.6 hits. As for Lineage 2, the combat system there and the story for that matter is 100x better and more interesting than ESO

, it's just getting a bit old sadly.

Once again, this is not about grinding being as fast as questing and ZOS disagrees with you obviously since spots from lvl 1-50 aren't nerfed. It's just about the content being nerfed too soon since 1.6 hasn't even kicked in and people who want to end game will be stuck before 1.7 hits which could be months away from now.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

I suppose you're a Skyrim fan that wants to solo quest here while waiting for the next TES, that's fine by me, just don't ask that people who aren't playing for the same reasons as you should to be forced to play like you do.

Morrowind fan, actually. Daggerfall wasn't so great, but morrowind had a nifty story and design, for its day. But the gist is right, I came here lured by the story, not the game.

I don't see how you can still be playing then. ESO is so dumbed down (mechanics, attributes, armor), easy and most of all uninteresting (story wise) compared to Morrowind... I finished Morrowind like 5 times, Oblivion 10+, I enjoyed those games. Couldn't stand an other minute of the fracking prophet calling me vestige if my life depended on it. I just do the main story quests on my alts (for skillpoints) with the game on half screen and no sound now...

Edenwolf · January 2015

Well fack, maybe if there weren't 200 quests to do in a zone. There are so many quests and they offer so little xp, no wonder the questing gets stale.

TehMagnus · January 2015

Edenwolf wrote: »

Well fack, maybe if there weren't 200 quests to do in a zone. There are so many quests and they offer so little xp, no wonder the questing gets stale.

Or maybe if they gave much more XP so that every time you rerol you can discover new stuff...

TehMagnus · January 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

xarguideb17_ESO wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Morthur wrote: »

Questing in ESO is mind-numbingly boring, shallow, unimaginative... in a word: crap.

But just ask the fanbois... you can play the game exactly how you want as long as the way you want is grinding 5000 FedEx and kill X of Y quests.

The quests are as fun as you want them to be.

I see this firsthand in Craglorn:
I have a small group of friends I sometimes do Craglorn quests with. We all like to take our time, enjoy the story and just have a good time. Whenever I play with them, I really get to see the detail that has been put into these quests and get to fully appreciate it. There's always a nice mix of story and action.
And quite frankly, ESO has excellent story driven content. Much more so than other MMOs I've played.

I have to disagree with that statement. Eso had very few memorable moments for me.
On the opposite: Even though SW:TOR was widely not so well received, i can still remember most the Story lines and even some of the normal Quests. For me their story writing and quest design is unmatched in the world of themepark mmos.

I love the questing. I was very happy to be able to do the other faction quests on my regular character rather than having to roll a bunch of alts to experience it. I dont want to speak for everyone but there are according to reports 1.2 million people playing this game at the moment. Seems like a very very very small minority on here complaining in comparison.

You can't just pull a number out of wikipedia that has no source.
All we know for sure: "The game had 772,000 subscribers in June 2014 according to SuperData Research."
I would rather guess that this number has dwindled.
There is no other certain indication to the number of subscribers.

Superdata research is who said 1.2 million subs. Might want to check more updated stories

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/137279/1-2-million-subscribers

[Moderator Note: Edited quote and response to match moderated version]

#1: Superdata is a recent company that hasn't proved being right in anything yet.
#2: ZOS doesn't release any numbers so anything anyone says is pure speculation.
#3: All data about how many subscribers ZOS has/had isn't present in Superdata website anymore.
#4: The only accurate data from platforms like steam/xfire/raptr doesn't even put TESO in the top 20 of the most played games and well behind SWTOR, or ArcheAge